Marvel replacing all popular characters

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Henry_Pym
Now I should preface this with the fact that outside of Thor I don't really care about them race/gender swapping characters.

Cap- Black
Spider-Man- Female or Black/Puerto Rican
Thor- Female
Giant man- Indian & Gay
Hulk- Korean
Ms Marvel- Muslim
Wolverjerk- Female

I'd also like to point out they did this with all of Pym's identities over the years

Pym- Ultron
Wasp- Jan and soon Hope (Red Queen)
Goliath- Black or Hawkeye
Yellow Jacket- Black & Female
Ant Man- a living breathing Douche and then a peeping Tom.

Some people like Stan Lee has said its just Marvel being lazy and human turd blossom Bendis has said this was done so that children of color can now pretend to be there favorite heroes as well.

Your thoughts?

Facee
I don't think Trump will be too happy.

My favorite characters have always been Kree related and they're mostly blue so go figure.

One_Angry_Scot
I've never known of Black, Asian, then to go into religions (Muslims, Christians) who felt disenfranchised with the main comic companies because there wasn't any Black, Asian heroes. Because the fact is while on the whole there isn't as many heroes of that ethnicity I don't know of many people that have complained. There are heroes that are black that are very prominent in Marvel and DC in my opinion.

I just think Marvel is pandering to SJW's to get more appeal. Perhaps not full on but I think it plays a part.

I don't see a problem with a White Character (like Cap) ageing for example. So someone needs to take the mantle. I'd rather it be that Falcon takes the mantle because it is fitting for the story and lore and he just happens to be black because his creators made him so.

I care about the characters and how they work with eachother. I don't care about the colour you are but I don't think characters should suddenly become female and should switch ethnicities because the modern world is apparently sexist, racist etc according to certain groups that exist.

That part about Bendis saying kids can grow up now with a hero of their colour to aspire to. I again think that's silly.

Because for one thing I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of thousands of people who aren't white who have characters like Hulk, Spider-Man, Superman and Wolverine as idols. I could name countless other heroes but you understand my point.

It just kind of defeats Bendis's point. Almost like he's implying there isn't loads of Black, Asian (and other ethnicities) of children and Adults who don't have a rabid fandom for White characters. Heck we have users here who aren't white and they are huge fans of White heroes.

So in short I don't care for what race you are. I just think you should be careful of changing characters colours and genders for the sake of pandering to a certain culture and groups that have only just realised that apparently there is a shortage of non White superheroes (and villains as I know a lot of people like Villains, like Quanchi with Voldermort and stuff).

A good example on this topic would be Blue Marvel, Kevin Grievoux brought in a character with a good backstory. How he was encouraged to step down by J.F.K after he was revealed as being Black after his identity was revealed. Then he suddenly re-emerges. And look how he has been in the MCU. He's been a really good character.

We also have the recent Mighty Avengers comics where we have had 2 Black characters being prominently featured.

Blue Marvel
Monica Rambeau

Al Ewing has written some good comics where they have been working together and has made for a very good story. But osmething we notice is that they weren't given the roles they were in that comic because of their ethnicity were they?

They were given the roles because Al Ewing wanted to use the characters known as Blue Marvel and Spectrum, he didn't go,

"Oh I think I will pick these 2 characters because of their ethnicities. By doing this this makes us look better".

I just don't think we should pump in (now note these numbers are being used for examples, so if these seem like I'm overreacting it's just purely to do with examples. I could use the number 9 or 50 for example).

100 Female Characters
100 Black Characters
100 Asian Characters
100 Jewish Characters
100 Muslim Characters
100 Hindu Characters

Just because they're the ethnicity (religion and gender) that they are. I don't care if you add a Asian character into the MCU. But don't invent a character because he's Asian. Invent him because he has a really good well though out backstory. He has a cool costume design. Cool powers. But he just happens to be Asian. He wasn't made to appeal to Asian's. Because this way it'll look like a crap characters no matter what ethnicity you are. If a character is Asian, Black, Female, Jewish, Hindu, Christian let them be them ethnicities and religions be because that is what they are. I don't care if you're Black, White, Asian, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Blue, Orange, Rainbow, Magenta. As long as you are a good character as a whole and not invented solely because of your colour, gender and religious background then good luck to you.

Like mentioned previously Blue Marvel is what I would call an excellent example of this.

Digi
You know how movie studios care less and less about US box office these days, because they can make a killing in international markets like never before? It's the reason the percentages of foreign actors are up over a decade ago in American-made films, especially in blockbuster-style movies that will have a wide release. There will be exceptions, but this is the trend. Why this would be a surprise in other media that is becoming internationally consumed is beyond me. Marvel/Disney is simply adjusting to capitalize on a global scale.

Q99
One, that's not exactly true. Peter Parker and Thor-Odinson are still around, it's just *so are* Miles Morales and Thor-Jane.

Ms. Marvel is Muslim? That's because the old one is now Captain Marvel, and Kamala is probably more popular than she was! Or at least, more popular than Carol has been in decades. Carol's popularity also seems to be on the rise, just not as much as Kamala's. Kamala is pure awesome, btw.


Two, spicing things up is their jobs. New characters are a much more interesting way of doing that than some ways tried in the past. Like, the reason X-23 is becoming Wolverine is because due possibly to overuse, the sales of his books have been sliding for some time. Laura was able to do well enough in an ongoing when she wasn't Wolverine, so she seems like a good way to spice things up. Logan'll be back eventually- though I hear he's going to be around as Old Man Logan for awhile.

This is not unusual operating procedure for comic companies. Anyone remember when Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were all replaced around the same time? I do. Granted, these seem to be planned to be longer lasting, but as a fair amount of plot foresight has been put into them and they're set up well, I don't see that as a problem. Hm, I'll also point out to when Flash had two active people going by the name (Wally and Jay), and Hawkeye doing similar for about the last 8 years.

The Sam Wilson Cap stuff I've read has been great. I dunno about Laura as Wolverine but she is a good character in her own right. Kamala is, as mentioned, awesome. Thor-Jane certainly is getting good reviews and considering other related circumstances (i.e. she's dying) it's the least likely to be permanent. Spider-man is just a side-by-side thing anyway so yay there.




Judging by the Bendis comment, sounds like you care about the race/gender change fairly a lot...




It's not that people necessarily complain so much, as when they are represented there's a, "Yay, someone who's more like me!" feeling. The people who do feel disenfranchised are less likely to complain and more likely to just not pick up a comic in the first place, as well.

And, personally, I just find it more realistic. The real world has all races and genders, the 'white male as default' thing is just pretty lazy.

Heck, look at all the white people who complain that they are getting somewhat less representation. Like, there are people honestly really angry about this. Non-white males are simply use to not getting people who look like them, but as it's not hard to see, representation matters to white guys, so it shouldn't be a surprise it matters to others. Just, y'know, in a more positive sense and less internet ragey.


Oh yes, one final thing: Apparently the books like Ms. Marvel and Thor are doing incredibly well in digital sales, in addition to respectively well in physical sales.

So to change the title a bit, it's kinda "Marvel replacing some popular characters with even more popular related characters. Also keeping the popular characters."


From a business sense, I believe you can see the advantage of that for Marvel.

Henry_Pym
I just dislike Bendis, he tends to ruin things I like.

He is also one of the worst Pym writers of all time.

Q99
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
I just dislike Bendis, he tends to ruin things I like.

He is also one of the worst Pym writers of all time.


Ok, fair enough. I find Bendis either really gets characters (Say, Kitty Pryde, Ultimate Spider-man), or... not (His Laura Kinney does not remotely speak like X-23 should).

Kazenji
Originally posted by Q99
the reason X-23 is becoming Wolverine is because due possibly to overuse, the sales of his books have been sliding for some time. Laura was able to do well enough in an ongoing when she wasn't Wolverine, so she seems like a good way to spice things up. Logan'll be back eventually- though I hear he's going to be around as Old Man Logan for awhile.


Only thing with that Logan is its not the original one, but I'm sure the original one will be back.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Q99
One, that's not exactly true. Peter Parker and Thor-Odinson are still around, it's just *so are* Miles Morales and Thor-Jane.

Ms. Marvel is Muslim? That's because the old one is now Captain Marvel, and Kamala is probably more popular than she was! Or at least, more popular than Carol has been in decades. Carol's popularity also seems to be on the rise, just not as much as Kamala's. Kamala is pure awesome, btw.


Two, spicing things up is their jobs. New characters are a much more interesting way of doing that than some ways tried in the past. Like, the reason X-23 is becoming Wolverine is because due possibly to overuse, the sales of his books have been sliding for some time. Laura was able to do well enough in an ongoing when she wasn't Wolverine, so she seems like a good way to spice things up. Logan'll be back eventually- though I hear he's going to be around as Old Man Logan for awhile.

This is not unusual operating procedure for comic companies. Anyone remember when Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were all replaced around the same time? I do. Granted, these seem to be planned to be longer lasting, but as a fair amount of plot foresight has been put into them and they're set up well, I don't see that as a problem. Hm, I'll also point out to when Flash had two active people going by the name (Wally and Jay), and Hawkeye doing similar for about the last 8 years.

The Sam Wilson Cap stuff I've read has been great. I dunno about Laura as Wolverine but she is a good character in her own right. Kamala is, as mentioned, awesome. Thor-Jane certainly is getting good reviews and considering other related circumstances (i.e. she's dying) it's the least likely to be permanent. Spider-man is just a side-by-side thing anyway so yay there.




Judging by the Bendis comment, sounds like you care about the race/gender change fairly a lot...




It's not that people necessarily complain so much, as when they are represented there's a, "Yay, someone who's more like me!" feeling. The people who do feel disenfranchised are less likely to complain and more likely to just not pick up a comic in the first place, as well.

And, personally, I just find it more realistic. The real world has all races and genders, the 'white male as default' thing is just pretty lazy.

Heck, look at all the white people who complain that they are getting somewhat less representation. Like, there are people honestly really angry about this. Non-white males are simply use to not getting people who look like them, but as it's not hard to see, representation matters to white guys, so it shouldn't be a surprise it matters to others. Just, y'know, in a more positive sense and less internet ragey.


Oh yes, one final thing: Apparently the books like Ms. Marvel and Thor are doing incredibly well in digital sales, in addition to respectively well in physical sales.

So to change the title a bit, it's kinda "Marvel replacing some popular characters with even more popular related characters. Also keeping the popular characters."


From a business sense, I believe you can see the advantage of that for Marvel.

Oh of course I think you're right in what you said 100%. Like I said with race I don't care what colour you are. As long as a character isn't made because he's that colour. It detracts from other parts of him/her.

I did have a problem with Bendis's comment. (i know you was addressing Pym here but I just wanted to reply) Not because of what you suggested. As like I mentioned race and gender (and religion mean nothing to me). I'd treat an Asian Jewish Female the same I'd treat every other type of race.

My problem with that comment is that it's like he's implying there hasn't been millions of non-White children (and Adults) who have held characters not of their ethnicity as idols. It's like he's saying generations of non-White children have grown up through the decades having no one at Marvel to support. Because that's a lie and I like to think we know that.

I understand that it's popular and it helps to make a story (and money which is ultimately their driving point). You mentioned Kamala, who I forgot to say is also a good character. Her faith hasn't become what she's about entirely. It's part of her character and not the whole.My only real problem as it stands with the current changes would be Lady Thor. And that's only because I just dislike the story and how it happened. Can't really comment on the other new introductions until we see them.

I know that if you were to look at it you would see a ratio of more White to Black/Asian characters. So by numbers non-Whites are unrepresented. My only warning is don't start bringing in 20 New characters and changing 20 Old ones and changing them to a different colour, religion solely because of that colour being not as prominent. Because when you do that you are only making a character because he's for example Samoan. And not because he's a badarse character along with his ethnicity which I think is better. Because we know this character has an interesting story.

My argument for the most part isn't based on current events. It's more to do with the future and what's to come.

I hope the female characters don't become cartoon Anita Sarkeesian's etc. By at large I haven't experienced the things I'm talking about. It's just something I worry about for the future.

Add 30 Black characters in by all means. But don't add them solely because they are Black. Add them in the vein of Blue Marvel. He may be black, but that isn't all we know about him. Is Kamala (thanks for reminding me of her). We know she subscribes to the Islamic faith. But are we bombarded with only that when se see her? No we get a good story surrounding that.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by Digi
You know how movie studios care less and less about US box office these days, because they can make a killing in international markets like never before? It's the reason the percentages of foreign actors are up over a decade ago in American-made films, especially in blockbuster-style movies that will have a wide release. There will be exceptions, but this is the trend. Why this would be a surprise in other media that is becoming internationally consumed is beyond me. Marvel/Disney is simply adjusting to capitalize on a global scale.

I understand your point. I again don't see it as a surprise (as you mentioned on your penultimate sentence).

I just worry that we will not invent a generation of Black Panther's, Blue Marvel's, Monica Rambeau's and Kamala Khan's. Instead we make new load of characters that are only designed because of their colour only. The people I listed in my first sentence are characters of different races and religions who weren't made solely because of their colour and religion.

Like I mentioned to Q99 my argument is coming mainly not from what is happening now. But in the near future. I just want Marvel to do the right thing for comics, everyone and the future.

Astner
Originally posted by Q99
One, that's not exactly true. Peter Parker and Thor-Odinson are still around,
Odinson is dead as a doornail. He was killed by the Beyonders.

StyleTime
Originally posted by Q99
Ok, fair enough. I find Bendis either really gets characters (Say, Kitty Pryde, Ultimate Spider-man), or... not (His Laura Kinney does not remotely speak like X-23 should).
It's more like...for every 30 characters/stories he writes like shit, he lucks out and gets 1 right. Him doing a passable Kitty and good Daredevil are flukes.

X-Men is the shittiest it's been in a while thanks to him....which is saying a lot since most of the post-Second Coming stuff was shit anyway. All he did was give us a bunch of forgettable new mutants, with dumb stories to boot.

AT LEAST CYCLOPS CAN MAKE X'S IN THE AIR WITH HIS ARMS THOUGH!

BruceSkywalker
i could care less as long i like what i am reading

StyleTime
Hard to do with Bendis taking a shit on comics everywhere.

uhuh

Endless Mike
X-23 has always been a better character than Wolverine anyway. Not that that's saying much.

stick out tongue

Khazra Reborn
Does anyone know who the new Hulk is going to be?

I read somewhere today that it might be Thor. Which would be uhh.. Unexpected.

One-Punch
I heard it might be Iron Fist.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/new-totally-awesome-hulk-teaser-offers-possible-clues

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by StyleTime
AT LEAST CYCLOPS CAN MAKE X'S IN THE AIR WITH HIS ARMS THOUGH!

laughing out loud

It impressed Beast so much he instantly forgave Scottie everything.

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by One-Punch
I heard it might be Iron Fist.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/new-totally-awesome-hulk-teaser-offers-possible-clues

Yeah, I saw that too. The Thor theory was based on new Hulk's arm being blurred out, leading some to believe it was Thor's prosthetic Uru arm.

Digi
No idea why they'd power down Thor so much. But I guess someone has to be the Hulk.

313

One-Punch
The latest rumour is Doc Samson.

I still hope it's Iron Fist.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad138/jaxthejester/HulkvsChampioinKungFu_zpsc67841e4.jpg

Khazra Reborn
I hadn't been following this very closely, but it turns out Marvel is just screwing with us. They've been putting different heads on it regularly, which I was unaware of. So far they've had Iron Fist, Thor, and one other.

So, it's most likely going to just be Amadeus Cho.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
So, it's most likely going to just be Amadeus Cho.

...

That does sound like something Marvel would do.

facepalm

I was hoping for Quentin Quire sad

Khazra Reborn
Normally, Cho probably wouldn't be the first person I'd jump to, but since it's Pak, there's pretty much no other logical assumption.

StiltmanFTW
Yup.

Deadline
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
...

That does sound like something Marvel would do.

facepalm

I was hoping for Quentin Quire sad

Yup think its been confirmed it is Cho. This is getting silly don't think I'm buying Marvel anymore. PC is getting absurd.

StiltmanFTW
I agree, it's getting so bad I can't even look anymore.

steverules_2
Spider-man is still Peter Parker...right? I want Wolverine back sad

StyleTime
Originally posted by Endless Mike
X-23 has always been a better character than Wolverine anyway. Not that that's saying much.

stick out tongue
Not when Bendis writes either of them. Only Claremont's X-23 could possibly rank lower.

StiltmanFTW
One thing Claremont got right was that she's weaker and slower than Wolverine, though cool

Originally posted by steverules_2
Spider-man is still Peter Parker...right? I want Wolverine back sad

Wolverine's death ruined the Marvel Universe, yes.

Deadline
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One thing Claremont got right was that she's weaker and slower than Wolverine, though cool





Well Daredevil is slower than Wolverine...

Q99
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One thing Claremont got right was that she's weaker and slower than Wolverine, though cool


Advantages/disadvantages:
X-23
Additional weaponry (foot claw, duh. I'm disappointed whenever writers forget about it, the surprise footclawing was her trademark in the early days)
Agility (she leaps around more and is, like, 150 lbs lighter. No question)
Heals faster (apparently! She criticizes him on healing too slow on several bits)


Logan
More durable (skeleton, duh. Heavy hits that'll take down Laura which won't do the same to Logan)
Stronger (Skeleton means more mass behind his punches, and he's got thicker muscles)
Possibly faster? (When they actually fought they seemed pretty even on this to me. Dunno, never seen them get a run-off.)
Heals from worse (While Laura's is reportedly faster, it seems like her HF is a bit easier to overload, the burns-all-over from Nimrod was something Logan wouldn't need help to heal from)
Shorter (smaller target)

Actual fight against each other- showed 'em pretty darn even.




Peter Parker is one of the two active Spider-men. Logan is around as old man Logan.




Yeeea, he does not get X-23's voice one bit.




On that, I'll say I really liked the direction... at first. Mutant revolutionary? Cool idea. More confrontational, visiting rallies with pro-mutant human supporters which then get attacked by sentinels, SHIELD seems to be against them, the other half of the X-men are against them, etc..

Then what happens? Well... past the first few issues, he spends his time rescuing and training younger mutants like the X-men *always* do. He doesn't go out and poke the proverbial bear any more. It turns out Dark Beast was behind the SHIELD/Sentinel attacks, and Dazzler, who could be a legit 'good but opposed' person in SHIELD, gets replaced with Mystique. Hank brings the past X-men forward removing any high-ground he may have against Scott, and then Wolverine dies, and Captain America ages.

And thus, without actually doing all that much all the schism and AvX conflict is gone, just by beating two actual-villains and Scott's hero rivals removing themselves from the picture with no personal resolutions between them. So finally he just gives up and hands things to... Storm, who everyone on both sides always liked anyway. Which makes sense but it's just so very anti-climatic.


I do kinda like the O5 brought to the future, but compared to pre-Second Coming, this X era just feels shallow, the main conflict lacks followup.

DarkSaint85
I was hoping it would be Gladiator. So carver would joygasm for once.

But yeah, I am not a fan of this shoehorning. Legacy characters are fine to have swaps - if it makes sense.

Green Lanterns? Sure, why should they always be Americans?

Hulks? I .....guess? I mean, anyone can become a Hulk, with the right gamma rads.

Thor? Bit too much.

Don't do it just to pander. When you have to rewrite canon just to make someone fit, or to engage in wordplay and mental gymnastics (as with Thor), you know it's shallow as hell.

Give us some Chinese mutants, for once! Why are all the Omega levels white Americans?? Mutants are random, after all - and where are the largest population centers??

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hulks? I .....guess? I mean, anyone can become a Hulk, with the right gamma rads.

It's not that simple.

Banner's the special case, having inherited the damaged DNA from his father or whatever it was.

Marvel contradicts themselves a lot though, creating new gamma characters all the time and repowering Bruce even though the same writer (Pak) said it would be impossible, etc.

-Pr-
****ing Bendis... sad

Q99
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Thor? Bit too much.

Thor's got legacies dating back to Beta Ray Bill and Masterson.

There's been multiple times the hammer has been passed on.



I don't think 'pandering' is the right word. It's an industry based on selling things to begin with, appealing to the audience is the job, and it's not like these are lowest-common-demoninator stories, there's clearly a lot of planning and foresight to them. If all the characters were suddenly wearing only-thongs below the waste (Male *and* female), then I'd call that pandering ^^ Heck, 'pandering' can be good, Sinestro Corp war was a giant pandering to fans of GL history what with all the Moore callbacks.

Always pushing the old heroes can also be called pandering. Events are pandering to the crowd who likes them, avoiding events is pandering to the crowd that doesn't.



That's a good question. It seemed like Wanda's no-more-mutants was most likely to miss mutants she knew.

The most notable ethnically Chinese mutant I can think of is Jubilee.

Xorn's a high level Chinese mutant... if he exists... eh, Xorn, who knows, who cares.

How other countries handle mutants and showing their mutant populations would be an interesting thing.

MVC-Solos
Good.

Marvel is shit anyways.

Q99
Originally posted by MVC-Solos
Good.

Marvel is shit anyways.

Milage may vary. I like 'em better than DC.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Q99
Milage may vary. I like 'em better than DC.

For once I agree with you

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