Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Remember back to that famous, ancient, quote by Kubik when he said the Celestials were several orders of magnitude greater than himself...

My question is does that still apply today?

We have seen time and time again feats by Cube Beings that take a big nasty crap all over the feats of Celestials and almost any other cosmic being in comics...


We've seen Kubik and the Shaper of Worlds reality Warp an entire universe without much effort...

We've seen the Maker (who is perhaps the weakest Cube Being we've seen) one shot KO Thanos when Galactus, Omega, and Odin failed to do so...

Post Retcon Beyonders power remade all of reality on an instant...


So, which has more merit; the more recent raw feats of power demonstrated by Cube Beings or on panel words that are more than 20 years old?

I ask this because based on feats/on panel displays of power, Cube Beings appear to be the ones that are several orders of magnitude greater than Celestials...not the other way around.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Remember back to that famous, ancient, quote by Kubik when he said the Celestials were several orders of magnitude greater than himself...

My question is does that still apply today?

We have seen time and time again feats by Cube Beings that take a big nasty crap all over the feats of Celestials and almost any other cosmic being in comics...


We've seen Kubik and the Shaper of Worlds reality Warp an entire universe without much effort...

We've seen the Maker (who is perhaps the weakest Cube Being we've seen) one shot KO Thanos when Galactus, Omega, and Odin failed to do so...

Post Retcon Beyonders power remade all of reality on an instant...


So, which has more merit; the more recent raw feats of power demonstrated by Cube Beings or on panel words that are more than 20 years old?

I ask this because based on feats/on panel displays of power, Cube Beings appear to be the ones that are several orders of magnitude greater than Celestials...not the other way around.
Uhm LoM, have you not seen what's going on in the current Silver Surfer series?

Surfer is using Shaper of Worlds power to remake the universe. He even recreated Galactus then decided to destroy him because he didn't want him in the newly created universe.

Cubes stomp Celestials.

PS, welcome back

Thanx zop! :-)

And yeah, I saw that with the Shapers power; very impressive...

That feat, along with many others, supports Mephisto's view (during the Infinity Crusade) that a lone CCU (and thus a Cube Being by extension) is theoretically the equal of the full Infinity Gauntlet...

Based on what we've seen so far, all signs point to Mephisto being correct...

Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm LoM, have you not seen what's going on in the current Silver Surfer series?

Surfer is using Shaper of Worlds power to remake the universe. He even recreated Galactus then decided to destroy him because he didn't want him in the newly created universe.

Cubes stomp Celestials.

PS, welcome back


Yeah Kubik's spiel made no sense whatsoever to me, and I thought of it as Marvel attempting to reduce the Beyonder's power level so that he or other beings of his rank would fit into future story lines. If Galactus were more powerful than Cube beings, how is it that Franklin Richards becomes his master in the future?

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah Kubik's spiel made no sense whatsoever to me, and I thought of it as Marvel attempting to reduce the Beyonder's power level so that he or other beings of his rank would fit into future story lines. If Galactus were more powerful than Cube beings, how is it that Franklin Richards becomes his master in the future?
Forget about Franklin.

We just saw Surfer remake then destroy Galactus using Shaper's power. Cube Beings are no joke.

Originally posted by zopzop
Forget about Franklin.

We just saw Surfer remake then destroy Galactus using Shaper's power. Cube Beings are no joke.

Well Galactus is just an extended version of the Surfer with stamina issues. I've only ever seen him as a super scientist with monstrous matter manip abilities, TP, and energy manip at a high cosmic level. I rate him above Sky Father by a very slight margin. Too bad RK Thor did not stick around for very long, because I saw him above Galactus' level. His omniscience seemed to placed him in or around Chaos and Order's level. The Celestial's are a bit different though, because there are ones that have been said to be above Galactus. Then again Galactus' power level is variable. Perhaps Kubik spoke of Celestials of a higher order than the fodder that are regularly seen in comics?

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah Kubik's spiel made no sense whatsoever to me, and I thought of it as Marvel attempting to reduce the Beyonder's power level so that he or other beings of his rank would fit into future story lines. If Galactus were more powerful than Cube beings, how is it that Franklin Richards becomes his master in the future?

Dont get your logic here. FR could just be stronger than a Cube. MoD is a mutant and he is stronger than Eternity itself. Omega mutants can be that strong.

And FR never become his master. He become his friend.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Dont get your logic here. FR could just be stronger than a Cube. MoD is a mutant and he is stronger than Eternity itself. Omega mutants can be that strong.

And FR never become his master. He become his friend.

Well, you're absolutely right. I was compering Franklin to Cube beings. I don't think that he is a match for the original Beyonder though, but I could be wrong... I mean after all the Molecule Man turned a lot of heads when he showed power enough to go head to head with the Beyonder, so I guess anything is possible. Thanks for the correction on the relationship between Franklin and Galactus. However, in his adult form, Franklin was more powerful than Galactus correct?

Originally posted by Stoic
Well Galactus is just an extended version of the Surfer with stamina issues. I've only ever seen him as a super scientist with monstrous matter manip abilities, TP, and energy manip at a high cosmic level. I rate him above Sky Father by a very slight margin.
This is absolutely not true. Galactus 'stamina issues' are highly exaggerated.

He outlasted 12+ Celestials and Tenebrous and Aegis. Odin would haven't have lasted 10 seconds against the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine :
http://s14.postimg.org/yzaiiw9rx/Cancer3.jpg

Or how about Galactus vs the 4 Rogue Celestials? Galactus more than held his own till they merged. Odin would have been torn apart by ONE of them, let alone 4.
http://s30.postimg.org/yhdkqxi7x/q_Na_Q5_Mg.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
This is absolutely not true. Galactus 'stamina issues' are highly exaggerated.

He outlasted 12+ Celestials and Tenebrous and Aegis. Odin would haven't have lasted 10 seconds against the Cancerverse's Galactus Engine :
http://s14.postimg.org/yzaiiw9rx/Cancer3.jpg

Or how about Galactus vs the 4 Rogue Celestials? Galactus more than held his own till they merged. Odin would have been torn apart by ONE of them, let alone 4.
http://s30.postimg.org/yhdkqxi7x/q_Na_Q5_Mg.jpg


What about when Old King Thor fought Galactus? It was like watching a Thing vs Namor battle. They appeared to be quite close in that fight. Galactus does have stamina issues. Maybe not akin to a tire with a dime sized hole in it, but he does leak power at a higher rate than an immortal. Despite the few times that he has looked very good in battle, he is always complaining about his next meal. We can't just ignore that fact.

The four rogue Celestial's could have been on the weaker scale individually when compared to more powerful ones. Aegis got her skull compromised by an unknown Cancerverse monster, so we really have no idea how powerful she and Tenebrous actually were. We do know that they could not one shot the Surfer, while Odin casually slapped his lights out. I'm just saying that what may appear to be really powerful for one character may be equally so for another. I can not see Aegis or Tenebrous defeating Odin. They gave me the impression of being on the Stranger's level, which is powerful, but not as powerful as Odin IMO.

Originally posted by Stoic
What about when Old King Thor fought Galactus? It was like watching a Thing vs Namor battle. They appeared to be quite close in that fight.
That's an alternate reality. Galactus was so feeble his freaking 'skin' was all wrinkly. Not exactly the picture of health.



He really doesn't though. He's ALWAYS on the look out for his next meal. That's what he does.


Even discounting T&A and the Rogue Celestials, how do you explain Galactus outlasting 12+ 616 Celestials (which included Arishem)?

As I understand the surfer comic, The Surfer has been given access to the "unrestricted" version of the power that Shaper of Worlds possesses. So basically Surfer is flying around with a untamed CCU, which as shown throughout their story, can vary tremendously in power.

Anyway that is my take on it.

^ From what I gathered, the Shaper is very powerful, it just lacks the imagination and insight to recreate things on the scale that someone like the Surfer could if he possessed that amount of power. He's essentially hampered by CIS. This makes sense because the Savage Hulk gave him fits way back in the day.

Stoic, in my opinion Franklin was a bit stronger than Galactus. But not that strong, more like "=>".

Some people put him much above Galactus because the said "Herald"

But:

3 Celestials > Franklin.
Franklin + Galactus > 3 Celestials.

Also, Franklin needed all the energy of the kid version "ressurect" Galactus. He could not do that by himself. Both, Franklin and Galactus, showed that they can beat a Celestial in 1v1. And both lose against 3 at same time.

CB

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Remember back to that famous, ancient, quote by Kubik when he said the Celestials were several orders of magnitude greater than himself...

My question is does that still apply today?

We have seen time and time again feats by Cube Beings that take a big nasty crap all over the feats of Celestials and almost any other cosmic being in comics...


We've seen Kubik and the Shaper of Worlds reality Warp an entire universe without much effort...

We've seen the Maker (who is perhaps the weakest Cube Being we've seen) one shot KO Thanos when Galactus, Omega, and Odin failed to do so...

Post Retcon Beyonders power remade all of reality on an instant...


So, which has more merit; the more recent raw feats of power demonstrated by Cube Beings or on panel words that are more than 20 years old?

I ask this because based on feats/on panel displays of power, Cube Beings appear to be the ones that are several orders of magnitude greater than Celestials...not the other way around. Magus had like 20 CCUs and was still less powerful than an incomplete IG

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Magus had like 20 CCUs and was still less powerful than an incomplete IG
This isn't entirely accurate.

Magus with 5 CCUs was able to :
1) Shield his presence from all the powers and principalities in the multiverse, this included the LT (this he said was using up the greatest portion of the CCUs power)
2) Imprison Eternity AND Infinity
3) Create a duplicate universe and slowly merge it with 616
4) Stop the UN from functioning

Eternity and Infinity pwned Magus with the incomplete IG yet were imprisoned by the Magus with 5 CCUs.

I remembered that wrong and confused it with the Goddess' arc, however the whole IG was needed to stop Magus in the eyes of the Living tribunal

great thread

New topic*

Phoenix Force users. At the height of it's power, I can see the PF being well above a Celestial, or multitudes of them. Not sure how it would compare to a Cube Being? Some CB's are more powerful than others it appears. Sentry was able to momentarily restrain one, which was a huge feat for him. I'm not sure if he'd have been able to do more than die against a PF host though?

Originally posted by Stoic
New topic*

Phoenix Force users. At the height of it's power, I can see the PF being well above a Celestial, or multitudes of them. Not sure how it would compare to a Cube Being? Some CB's are more powerful than others it appears. Sentry was able to momentarily restrain one, which was a huge feat for him. I'm not sure if he'd have been able to do more than die against a PF host though?
Maybe it's a 'low' showing for the Cube?

I just remembered something. I recall a scan posted here a few months back where the Badoon used a Cosmic Cube to enslave the entire Celestial Race. I don't remember if this was an alternate reality or possible future but damn was it impressive.

http://s21.postimg.org/pyao7bhb7/gotg_issue_16_002.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Maybe it's a 'low' showing for the Cube?

I just remembered something. I recall a scan posted here a few months back where the Badoon used a Cosmic Cube to enslave the entire Celestial Race. I don't remember if this was an alternate reality or possible future but damn was it impressive.

http://s21.postimg.org/pyao7bhb7/gotg_issue_16_002.jpg


You know what impression I often get of the Cube beings? I think that they can tap from a very large well of power, and are generally seen as Cosmic Genie's of a sort, but they lack the imaginative scope to be supreme beings. In a sense, they are slaves to their own power. Take the Shaper of World's for example; he does have the power to shape universes out of nothingness, but he lacks the will or maybe the imagination to do so. Most Cube beings appear to be slaves, or simply items of power. Your scan shows the well of power that they can tap from, but not what they can do on their own. It kind of shows you the difference between them, and Mxy. Mxy does not need another character to show him the way, he just does what he does.

Also. what do you think of the power level of a Phoenix Force host in comparison to a Celestial? I mean at full power, and not Rachel Grey levels of power.

Originally posted by zopzop

Magus with 5 CCUs was able to :
1) Shield his presence from all the powers and principalities in the multiverse, this included the LT (this he said was using up the greatest portion of the CCUs power)
2) Imprison Eternity AND Infinity
3) Create a duplicate universe and slowly merge it with 616
4) Stop the UN from functioning
Magus imprisoned Eternity solely good friend. All else is yes.
Originally posted by zopzop

Eternity and Infinity pwned Magus with the incomplete IG
yet were imprisoned by the Magus with 5 CCUs.
hmm... I wouldn't make it sound that simple.

Remember friend, Warlock battled Magus across countless universeS for that incomplete IG,
then, Warlock had to wait for the precise moment to catch Magus off-guard so Eternity/Infinity could strike.

You know, there's an interpretation that tells us Eternity/Infinity and Magus blew up the Multiverse in that encounter.

The Moon Knight tie-ins to Infinity War.

Also, Dr Strange bumped into residual residue across "time" leading to the 31st century from the Infinity War.
Strange was leaving Universe-691 of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Originally posted by Stoic

Sentry was able to momentarily restrain one
That scene was blown out of proportions years ago, good friend.

That Cube wasn't trying to hurt anyone there, and Sentry never restrained it.

Sentry held that harmless CCU for a moment from getting away,
the second the CCU exerted some force to leave it blew Sentry across the room.

Also, you know why the CCU got away, cause it wanted to find protection,
cause it was vulnerable due to its instability,
and it was no where near as powerful as a functioning CCU:



-------------------------------------------------------

It went to a CPU, and controlled the CPU to send a robot after the heroes,
it actually floored Sentry with eye beams.



-------------------------------------------------------

But the CCU wasn't really trying to hurt any of them.

They destroyed the CCU with an energy nullifier.



-------------------------------------------------------

At the end, Sentry, Sue and Reed speculate on what the CCu really wanted:



-------------------------------------------------------

See, no big deal.

That CCU feat was taken out of context cause that's what happens
when a single cropped scan is used to define a story.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Magus imprisoned Eternity solely good friend. All else is yes.

It was both no?
http://s29.postimg.org/rn52db1xv/1982738_galactushealseternity8.jpg http://s29.postimg.org/q9i0vqs2b/1982765_galactushealseternity9.jpg
I remember this being confirmed in an issue of Quasar when he tries to contact Infinity and he couldn't. This was why. She was imprisoned along with Eternity.

Originally posted by Stoic
^ From what I gathered, the Shaper is very powerful, it just lacks the imagination and insight to recreate things on the scale that someone like the Surfer could if he possessed that amount of power. He's essentially hampered by CIS. This makes sense because the Savage Hulk gave him fits way back in the day.

So Shaper of the world is in essence just like every other cube being, that imposes limits on themselves the longer they exist. Just like Mephisto once stated. Hence why I said, Surfer has access to a "unrestricted" CCU, and the CCU can, as mentioned above, vary tremendously in power.

In regards to the thread, I believe that the Cube Beings, like Kubik, Kosmos and Shaper of the World are still beneath the Abstracts, while the Cosmic Containment units, are above. But then again from my perspective this has always been the case, expect for a few incidents open to interpretation.

srug

Originally posted by zopzop

It was both no?

I remember this being confirmed in an issue of Quasar when he tries to contact Infinity and he couldn't.
This was why. She was imprisoned along with Eternity.
You right ... Darn it, I forgot up until that point that was a mystery.

Originally posted by Stoic
Also. what do you think of the power level of a Phoenix Force host in comparison to a Celestial? I mean at full power, and not Rachel Grey levels of power.
The PF has so many inconsistent showings and power origin retcons that its a pain discussing it.

It's supposed to be at least universal but in 616 reality it's never done anything at that level. It's best showings are in alternate realities where it's actually outputted enough power to destroy a universe or multiple galaxies.

Phoenix Force is a very iffy one because of the inconsistency, and the fact that it's never really fit into the 'main' cosmic hierarchy of Marvel. See how whenever anyone shows the hierarchy in a comic they almost never include the Phoenix Force (story wise probably because it's so heavily tied into the X-men) so it's hard to judge. At the very least we know it's below the Beyonders (based on what Doom did to Cyclops) but then again right now everyone is.

As for Cube beings vs Celestials, I don't think Kubik's statement can be taken at face value anymore. It was made back in the days when the Celestials were always talked about as being beyond almost everyone, whereas actual showings and other stuff since then have made it clear that that is not the case.

And any recent showing of cosmic cube or cube being power puts them very clearly beyond the Celestials- hell even when Kubik said that the Beyonder had turned himself into a universe, which is more than basically any Celestial (bar Scathan) has ever really done on panel.

Add to the fact a cosmic cube literally enslaved every Celestial in that Guardians future, Molecule Man doing his multiversal battles and recently being revealed to destroy an entire universe by releasing his powers (albeit he is more powerful than the cube beings but you know) and the general way they are portrayed as an ultimate weapon, I would now consider cube beings to be above the Celestials in a normal situation.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Stoic, in my opinion Franklin was a bit stronger than Galactus. But not that strong, more like "=>".

Some people put him much above Galactus because the said "Herald"

But:

3 Celestials > Franklin.
Franklin + Galactus > 3 Celestials.

Also, Franklin needed all the energy of the kid version "ressurect" Galactus. He could not do that by himself. Both, Franklin and Galactus, showed that they can beat a Celestial in 1v1. And both lose against 3 at same time.

Actually, Galactus seemed to be more more than holding his own against 4 of those Celestials until they went Voltron on him, while Franklin obviously needed Galactus' help against 3 of them and still had to resort to kamikaze mode. Of course, after eating 4 planets Galactus was more powerful that he normally is, so it seems to me that they're normally equals with Galactus having the potential to be more powerful.

Originally posted by zopzop

Magus with 5 CCUs was able to :

4) Stop the UN from functioning


When did that happen?

Originally posted by zopzop

I just remembered something. I recall a scan posted here a few months back where the Badoon used a Cosmic Cube to enslave the entire Celestial Race. I don't remember if this was an alternate reality or possible future but damn was it impressive.


It was a future reality.

Originally posted by operator616
When did that happen?

When Quasar had the UN and was trying to fire it off at Magus. Magus stopped it from working until a fight destroyed his machine's link to the CCUs :
http://s3.postimg.org/xmqof5df3/Quasar_Nullifier2_zpsb81e59c5_jpg_original.jpg http://s3.postimg.org/48uxzkapb/Quasar_Nullifier1_zpsc80daee7_jpg_original.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Maybe it's a 'low' showing for the Cube?

I just remembered something. I recall a scan posted here a few months back where the Badoon used a Cosmic Cube to enslave the entire Celestial Race. I don't remember if this was an alternate reality or possible future but damn was it impressive.

http://s21.postimg.org/pyao7bhb7/gotg_issue_16_002.jpg

Omg!!

See, displays of power like that cement my position that Kubiks ancient words are no longer applicable...

That feat of imprisoning the Celestial Race is so good that I am betting that nothing less than the Classic, Full, Infinity Gauntlet being weilded by Thanos could replicate that feat...

Originally posted by zopzop
This isn't entirely accurate.

Magus with 5 CCUs was able to :
1) Shield his presence from all the powers and principalities in the multiverse, this included the LT (this he said was using up the greatest portion of the CCUs power)
2) Imprison Eternity AND Infinity
3) Create a duplicate universe and slowly merge it with 616
4) Stop the UN from functioning

Eternity and Infinity pwned Magus with the incomplete IG yet were imprisoned by the Magus with 5 CCUs.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
great thread

Thanks and hello!

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Phoenix Force is a very iffy one because of the inconsistency, and the fact that it's never really fit into the 'main' cosmic hierarchy of Marvel. See how whenever anyone shows the hierarchy in a comic they almost never include the Phoenix Force (story wise probably because it's so heavily tied into the X-men) so it's hard to judge. At the very least we know it's below the Beyonders (based on what Doom did to Cyclops) but then again right now everyone is.

As for Cube beings vs Celestials, I don't think Kubik's statement can be taken at face value anymore. It was made back in the days when the Celestials were always talked about as being beyond almost everyone, whereas actual showings and other stuff since then have made it clear that that is not the case.

And any recent showing of cosmic cube or cube being power puts them very clearly beyond the Celestials- hell even when Kubik said that the Beyonder had turned himself into a universe, which is more than basically any Celestial (bar Scathan) has ever really done on panel.

Add to the fact a cosmic cube literally enslaved every Celestial in that Guardians future, Molecule Man doing his multiversal battles and recently being revealed to destroy an entire universe by releasing his powers (albeit he is more powerful than the cube beings but you know) and the general way they are portrayed as an ultimate weapon, I would now consider cube beings to be above the Celestials in a normal situation.

Well said...

Originally posted by Stoic
New topic*

Phoenix Force users. At the height of it's power, I can see the PF being well above a Celestial, or multitudes of them. Not sure how it would compare to a Cube Being? Some CB's are more powerful than others it appears. Sentry was able to momentarily restrain one, which was a huge feat for him. I'm not sure if he'd have been able to do more than die against a PF host though?

Sentry hold a Cosmic Cube a few moments in his early carrier and at this point he didn't know that he could warp the reality.

Sentry, during Dark Avengers, blocked & destroyed the most powerful Cosmic Cube-being AKA Molecule Man, whom was at full power as he had no beliefs on his abilities.

That pretty summarize the potential of the guy.

cube beings cant beat celestials,or higher abstracts.