Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

which race or empire was crueler to those around them?

*i will say that i dont know much about either but i do now that both were very cruel and destructive*

not which was more destructive because that would come down to the time eras and technology

The Rakata. They enslaved half the galaxy iirc and inflicted a number of cruelties. And when you think about it, technology like the Mindspear, Mind trap and such, had to be tested. When you consider their behavior towards their lesser slaves. The implications are pretty nasty.

I'd go with the Rakata just because of how brutal and dominant they were.

The Yuuzhan Vong will steamroll the Rakatan, frankly.

They have much more resources, bigger and better ships, and so on.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The Rakata. They enslaved half the galaxy iirc and inflicted a number of cruelties. And when you think about it, technology like the Mindspear, Mind trap and such, had to be tested. When you consider their behavior towards their lesser slaves. The implications are pretty nasty.

I'd go with the Rakata just because of how brutal and dominant they were.


They had around 500 worlds, they were spread out over the galaxy, but their hyperdrive could only find force-rich worlds so total resources was relatively puny.

Also, they're force users, Vong are blindspots in the force.

Yuuzhan Vong SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

sorry this "isnt really" a versus thread it was of an opinion one. i was wanting to know which people thought was crueler in terms of what they did to those the fought or enslaved etc...


but yes the vong would definetely win if they fought.

We don't know enough about the Rakatans to know who'd win for sure but yeah, The Infinite Empire sounds more evil.

Ah, which is crueler? Both are pretty bad.... I wanna say the Vong for their pain-worship, but they have shown that they're willing to let pawns administer lessers for them...

Rakatans had virtually endless supply of vessels through wonders such as Star Forge. Unless Star Forge and similar platforms are compromised, Rakatans may hold their own against any adversary.

Vong cannot use powers like Battle Meditation to turn the tide in battles from safe distance and they would need to overcome the defenses of Star Forge and similar stuff to achieve breakthrough.

As for being EVIL, I believe that Rakatans were really evil. They enslaved other races and civilizations and were generally cruel. Luckily for the slaves, a powerful plague took care of the Rakatans.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yuuzhan Vong SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

The Rakata were enslaving bitches like the World Razer.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Rakata were enslaving bitches like the World Razer.

The Vong's killcount trumps the World Razer's pretty easily.




That means they always have replacement ships coming in, but their ships are smaller and weaker (you know the ships Darth Malak was putting out with the Forge? Those were 600 meters long. The Vong's normal ships are 1,600 meters long, and they also have 2 km and 8 km long classes), they still only have so much crew, and even the Forge only puts out so many ships at one time.

Also, tactically they were a bit fractuous and tribal in their methods. They relied a fair bit on their superior tech, powers, and numbers to most foes.



Which is pretty easy with a worldship, or even the normal big capital ships.



They're both really evil ^^

You're telling me the Vong as a whole killed more people than one entity? No shit.

Anyway, imo, anything the Federation can face can be faced by the Infinite Empire.

Lmfao.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're telling me the Vong as a whole killed more people than one entity? No shit.

Anyway, imo, anything the Federation can face can be faced by the Infinite Empire.

Federation?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're telling me the Vong as a whole killed more people than one entity? No shit.

And possess a lot more total power, yea. The IE beating the World Razer doesn't mean they can stand up to the Vong.


They just have so much more power than the Infinite Empire- they can run the Rakatan out of Rakatan while there's Vong to spare.

You're basing your opinions on what exactly? Because considering the World Razer can, as the name implies, raze worlds and eat stars, I'm putting him well above anything the Vong have actually faced, including the known galaxy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Federation?
The Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. You know, the galaxy during the Vong Invasion.

Didn't the World Razer eat stars though?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're basing your opinions on what exactly? Because considering the World Razer can, as the name implies, raze worlds and eat stars, I'm putting him well above anything the Vong have actually faced, including the known galaxy.

But, we know the Rakatan's military strength, we've seen them in action against the Jed'aii and we've seen the Star Forge and other Rakatan remnant military technology in action. That they managed to take it down says that for it's destructive capability, it is definitely beatable.


I mean, the Sun Crusher could kill stars too, and it wasn't that hard to stop it.





The thing is, the GFFA is the whole galaxy and has SSD-sized ships in it's fleet.

The Infinite Empire isn't, and doesn't.

A big GFFA fleet could just fly to the Star Forge, blow up Rakatan defenses, and take it down, not much question. The Rakatan ships are frigate-sized, a single Mon Cal Star Defender is gonna outmass a whole fleet of them, and were combatable by the Jed'aii's ancient conventional tech ships and starfighters.

Malgus stated Rakatan tech is far greater than TOR tech, kek.

And indeed, we saw Rakata tech being used to basically steamroll the Republic.

Originally posted by Q99
But, we know the Rakatan's military strength, we've seen them in action against the Jed'aii and we've seen the Star Forge and other Rakatan remnant military technology in action. That they managed to take it down says that for it's destructive capability, it is definitely beatable.

And the Vong aren't?

How is a super weapon comparable to a non-corporeal entity?


This is an astounding example of stupidity, if I've ever seen one. Having more worlds, especially less populated ones, does not make you more powerful. I don't know what idiocy told you bigger is better, but you should kick it in the teeth. Then again, you're the guy who said "Two Sith Lords > One Sith Lord," so I'm far from surprised.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malgus stated Rakatan tech is far greater than TOR tech, kek.

And indeed, we saw Rakata tech being used to basically steamroll the Republic.

The fact that the the Republic was able to put up a fight at all says how much they're disadvantaged- note the TOR Republic's ship of the line is 300 meters long. The fighting went on for a good while when Malak had the Star Forge, after all. And killing the Star Forge ships even with Republic Hammerheads was quite doable, the problem was more kept coming.


Note, the Vong initially steamrolled the New Republic and Imperial Remnant worlds, with 1,200 meter Mon Cals and 1,600 meter ISDs as their standard ships of the line. And the problem was killing the Vong ships to begin with, with their high-defense Dovin Basals and all that.

Since when does bigger mean better, kek. If you have a dozen 300 meter ships, you're going to beat a 1,200 meter ship.

Who cares if the World Razer ate a thousand worlds? The Vong have bigger ships!

Didn't the Rakata also topple the ****ing Celestials?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since when does bigger mean better, kek.

In terms of firepower and such? Most of the time.

That's part of why Super Star Destroyers are so impressive, after all. And each Rebellion-era and later ship may as well be a small SSD to the ships from back then.




Well, if you also have large quantities of the bigger ships, and the big ships are supported by smaller ships, that also helps, y'know? Vong and their foes had huge fleets.

The 'fuzzy wuzzy' strategy of swarming the big with the small can work- indeed, the GFFA eventually goes back to it with some very high-firepower designs in Legacy- but it can also lead to the small suffering casualties without killing the large, and if sufficient numerical advantage cannot be reached, things go quite badly.

Any place the Rakatan cannot mass in very large number, is going to go badly for them. If there's only a dozen of their ships in orbit of a planet and 4 ISD-sized Vong ships show up, they'll be lucky to get any kills before being wiped out.


And there is the matter of the healthy war-ready Worldship. The only way the New Republic was able to kill it was a suicide SSD-bomb. Without that, it would take truly gigantic fleet to hope to take it down.

Except the Rakata have a fleet that's been described time and time against as practically infinite.

They should certainly have like, dozens to hundreds of ships at every planet with their ridiculous OP'ness.

Plus they have the Foundry that produces an infinite amount of battledroids for their armies as well.

And I doubt the Rakata care a lot about "casualties," lawl.

They also have that Star Forge that xenoforms planets that can be a counter to the Vong's vongforming.

The Vong would win

Raisins?

Have the circumstances of the Rakatan's defeat of the World Razer been made known?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Since when does bigger mean better, kek. If you have a dozen 300 meter ships, you're going to beat a 1,200 meter ship.

Terrible logic, an ISD-I would slaughter even 30 corellian corvettes

Originally posted by Q99
The fact that the the Republic was able to put up a fight at all says how much they're disadvantaged- note the TOR Republic's ship of the line is 300 meters long. The fighting went on for a good while when Malak had the Star Forge, after all. And killing the Star Forge ships even with Republic Hammerheads was quite doable, the problem was more kept coming.
You are forgetting the role of Bastilla Shan and Revan.

Revan sabotaged the defensive arrangements of the Star Forge in Lehon and then raided the vessel to sabotage its activities from within.

Revan also managed to redeem Bastilla Shan and the latter used her remarkable Battle Meditation technique to turn the tide of the entire battle in the favor of the Republic forces in a span of minutes; she literally sapped the will of the Sith forces to fight effectively.

Now, if we are assuming the Rakatan Empire in its glory days, I don't think that it was easy to land on Lehon and disable the massive shield that protected the Star Forge from external threats. In-fact, this shield prevented enemy vessel from landing safely on Lehon. Furthermore, Lehon may have been heavily guarded by Rakatan forces during the prime years of Rakatan Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Note, the Vong initially steamrolled the New Republic and Imperial Remnant worlds, with 1,200 meter Mon Cals and 1,600 meter ISDs as their standard ships of the line. And the problem was killing the Vong ships to begin with, with their high-defense Dovin Basals and all that.
Rakatans might have super vessels as well. They have developed stuff that was beyond the understanding of the engineers of the Republic.

Rakatans are rumored to have routed the mighty Celestials.

If Revan's plan on the Foundry had not been foiled, he would have raised an army that would have destroyed the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire whose technology was similar to that of the Great Galactic Empire. Rakatan technology should not be foolishly underestimated.

The Republic didn't need Bastila's help; the Sith did, but everything else is pretty sound.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except the Rakata have a fleet that's been described time and time against as practically infinite.

It's been repulsed militarily, mind you. Tython was able to fight them off.

Which, partially, could just be their lack of experience at fighting peer foes. Despite their power- or because of their power- they'd be unused to facing foes that can punch in their weight class.



Here's the thing: I agree. And that still leaves them outmatched.

500 worlds with a dozen each leaves them with fewer ships than the Vong had at some specific battles.

A hundred each may cancel the number advantage, but that's still of smaller outmatched ships.



It's not that they care, it's that casualties reduce their actual capabilities.

The Vong don't care about casualties either. That's why Coruscant cost them so much- they spent so many lives on it that they didn't have enough to continue to push on as they had even though they wanted to, they needed to recover first.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are forgetting the role of Bastilla Shan and Revan.

Revan sabotaged the defensive arrangements of the Star Forge in Lehon and then raided the vessel to sabotage its activities from within.

Revan also managed to redeem Bastilla Shan and the latter used her remarkable Battle Meditation technique to turn the tide of the entire battle in the favor of the Republic forces in a span of minutes; she literally sapped the will of the Sith forces to fight effectively.


It's not that I'm forgetting, it's that I think it's not necessary in this circumstance.

That allowed the Republic to take it out despite the Republic being pretty badly sapped from prior fighting and having ships that were individually weaker.

The Vong can just hit them with, say, 3,000 capital ships, while also engaging on other major Rakatan worlds with similar numbers, and due to their force-blankness, the Rakatan wouldn't get warnings in the force that they needed to protect the forge right then.




That'd be speculative, and besides, there's levels of supervessel.

The Ascendant Spear was a supervessel in TOR, and it's just a pretty-big warship with a fast engine.


A SSD is a supervessel, and the Vong have a number of SSD-equivalent ships.

While the Rakatan may have aces in the whole, as many aces as the Vong, and enough of them to counteract the conventional edge? That's very unlikely.


And to take about Rakatan tech some, it's forced based, making it hard to understand to normal engineers. That said, it was able to be fought with KotoR, TOR, and even old Tython technology to various extents.

Vong biotech is something engineers also couldn't understand- for entirely different but quite obvious reasons- and it was early on definitely outmatching Imperial/Rebel tech for awhile, until they figured out adjustments and specific counters. A problem the Rakatan are also likely to have.



I will point out we have no idea how powerful the non-One Celestials are, and that Abeloth was also involved in their fall, and they also clashed with the Killiks around the same time. It could be that everything just went bad for the Celestials around the same time- and even then, their fate is unknown, one possibility is they simply threw up their hands and left.




Yes, but if Revan's plan hadn't been thwarted, he'd have not only the Star Forge, but the whole Republic, thousands/tens of thousands of worlds, to draw from. It was not the Forge alone that would allow him to do so, it was merely the keystone to the plan.

And while the Sith Empire's technology resembles the Galactic Empire's, that's merely similar to. A Harrower is smaller than a Victory or Venator, let alone an Imperial Star Destroyer.


The Galactic Empire used descendants of the designs, but larger, stronger ones.

The GE would stomp the Infinite Empire or any other Old Republic-era faction.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have the circumstances of the Rakatan's defeat of the World Razer been made known?

Or is the World Razer merely hype?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The GE would stomp the Infinite Empire or any other Old Republic-era faction.

Yes.


Originally posted by The Merchant
Or is the World Razer merely hype?


Honestly we don't know precisely what it can do.


But consider, we know a few other star killers. Naga Sadow's Meditation Sphere, and the Sun Crusher. The first beaten by the still young Old Republic, the second by the just-out-of-the-rebellion New Republic. If it's force-based, a method similar to Sadow's would make sense.

And molten something dropped on it was enough to keep it sealed. So it can be physically imprisoned.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The GE would stomp the Infinite Empire or any other Old Republic-era faction.
Like they supposedly stomped the "insignificant" rebels?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Like they supposedly stomped the "insignificant" rebels?

They were up until the Battle of Endor and even then, that was more due to the Rebels getting lucky in finding Ewoks which gave them a fighting chance at all.

You do realize that saying a bunch of savage teddy bears gave the Rebels a fighting chance makes them and the Empire both sound legit terrible?

And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Like they supposedly stomped the "insignificant" rebels?

The Rebellion worked by recruiting from within the Empire, turning Empire worlds into Rebellion worlds. It began as an uprising, rather than taking the Empire's military head on. The internal rebellion factor meant for one thing, the Imperial fleet had to be spread out for coverage and to suppress many worlds, rather than concentrated like is used in a war against an enemy who isn't from inside you.

Even then, the big thing that crippled the Empire wasn't it's material defeat, but how it splintered with Sidious and Vader gone.

Against the Rakatan... well, very few people are going to want to defect to them like they would the Rebels, you know? It'll only be the Rakatan forces, and they will have a limited number of strategic targets, and that means it'll be more like the later days of the Clone Wars again, only with the Rakatans having a smaller fleet than the CIS and the Empire a larger one than the Republic.


Originally posted by FreshestSlice

And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?


The only reason the World Razer is scary is because it reportedly performed superweapon-esque feats. Something with those feats can be quite beatable whether they're mechanical or a living being.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You do realize that saying a bunch of savage teddy bears gave the Rebels a fighting chance makes them and the Empire both sound legit terrible?


So were gonna just judge 1 sole battle out of...the countless others and say the Rebels and Empire suck?

Ok...can we do that for other factions too? What about characters?

Come on now Fresh...and plus that, the Empire still would have won if it weren't for Chewie hijacking the AT-ST.

Just going off of 1 battle doesn't mean much, especially when the Empire had many things going against them in that 1 battle.

Doesn't make them terrible.

I will mention that either Death Star likely outmasses the entire Rakatan fleet (those things are huge), and taking down a SSD with concentrated firepower like the Rebel fleet did would be much more difficult/require far more ships for the Rakatan.

Originally posted by The Merchant
World Razer merely hype?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So were gonna just judge 1 sole battle out of...the countless others and say the Rebels and Empire suck?

That's a real nice strawman you got there.

Well besides the fact the entire basis of this forum is around one duel, as unless this is TCW the other participants are unlikely to live, sure why not? Whatever floats your boat.

No, they still would have lost regardless. The navy battle was already a defeat within itself.

Again, that's not even what I said. Regardless, acting like the Empire is stomping anything when it most certainly couldn't stop the Rebel Alliance is stupid.
Originally posted by Q99
The only reason the World Razer is scary is because it reportedly performed superweapon-esque feats. Something with those feats can be quite beatable whether they're mechanical or a living being.
Great. Now, mind actually answering my question?

You're the one saying Fresh that the GE and RA are terrible because of 1 battle.





Unless I'm not reading this quote properly.

The Rebel Alliance fought using Guerrilla tactics, the Empire would have destroyed them in a straight up battle. Heck, they almost did at Endor. :I

As for the topic at hand, the Vong were capable of invading an entire Galaxy and at one battle had over tens of thousands of ships. I believe the most ships seen -on screen for the Rakta was the Star Forge's fleet, one can probably get a number since the fleet was so huge it can be visible next to a freaking star.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
You're the one saying Fresh that the GE and RA are terrible because of 1 battle.





Unless I'm not reading this quote properly.
You are. What that sentence clearly says is that, you, that's you, are painting them in a bad light.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You are. What that sentence clearly says is that, you, that's you, are painting them in a bad light.

I must be tired...ehh F it, this ain't the thread to derail.

Also, it is stated that in the entire Galaxy's history that no faction was as big as the Galactic Empire.

Seriously, where did this idea that bigger is better come from? Didn't seem to stop Japan. Hell, in TOR, the Sith Empire is far smaller than the Republic. Hasn't been totally decimated yet by it.
Originally posted by The Merchant
The Rebel Alliance fought using Guerrilla tactics, the Empire would have destroyed them in a straight up battle. Heck, they almost did at Endor. :I

It's a good think the Rakata know how to think and fought off the Celestials, which despite Q99's, "We just don't know"s, were largely wide spread and very successful.

Uh, wut? No, pretty sure the fleet of the Infinite Empire is more than the ships Malak made at the Star Forge.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/1/16/RakataFleetDotJ.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120621181809

Those ships?

Never found them to be particularly impressive tbh. But yeah, the IE had those too.

I thought the Sith Empire ruled like, half the Galaxy? And the Unknown Regions which they originated from is actually pretty big territory.


I said on-screen. My implication probably didn't go through correctly, what I meant was however big Malak's fleet was the Rakata's will be much bigger.

Nah, they don't rule half the, known, galaxy. Not even close. The Republic is far larger. The portion of the Unknown Regions that they actually control is also relatively small.

And oh.

http://media.giphy.com/media/YqJAwUqISHKSI/giphy.gif

The idea that, because they couldn'tdidn't defeat the rebellion, the GE won't/can't stomp TOR-era factions is quite silly.

First, the notion that size isn't important or even potentially decisive smacks of some deep-seated Freudian denial. Not only does the Empire control vastly more territory than any TOR faction, it therefore possesses vastly more industry, manpower, and resources on which to draw. These things are very much relevant in any military engagement, real or fictional.

**On top of that, not only does the Empire outstrip any TOR faction in terms of territorial size and industrial base, but in terms of military strength, it's not even remotely comparable:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Imperial%20fleet%20largest%20ever_zpskdwafyij.jpg

Second, as Q correctly points out, the Empire's vessels have a distinct size and technological advantage {yes, size and mass are very much relevant in vessel-to-vessel comparisons} due to thousands of years of further research and experimentation.

Third, the reason the Empire failed to defeat the Rebellion was due to the failures of its leadership, not its military capability. The Emperor had the rebellion by the balls at Endor {by his own design!} and could have decapitated the entire opposition in one fell swoop but opted for theatrics over efficiency. We know exactly why he did that. So unless there's a Skywalker involved somewhere, I'm doubting a repeat performance.

Fourth, real world history is littered with examples of great military powers suffering embarrassments at the hands of smaller, weaker foes. The context of these engagements is critical. You need only look at the allied coalition's performance against Iraq in 2003. Iraq's formal military was pretty much curbstomped in short order and yet the coalition spent 10 years fighting insurgents and terrorists who were less organized, less armed, and outnumbered precisely because guerrilla tactics don't lend themselves well to even the swiftest and smartest superpowers.

All that said, yes, the Galactic Empire would absolutely take any TOR era faction to the curb. They're bigger, stronger, and faster to an absurd degree. Maybe after they're smashed, TOR insurgents will become a protracted nuisance to the Empire, but they will be smashed all the same and only after.

Zakuul's Eternal Fleet > tbh.

Nah, the GE smashes tbh.

Also Swtore states that Rakatan tech was "galaxy-altering".

Lots of ways to interpret that, honestly. Clearly it refers to political power.

Political technology?

Like, really good wigs?

Telepathic voting-booths?

Precisely. Why bother filling out those pesky ballots when you can just have your brain scanned?

Lots of incidents of voting fraud, I'm sure.

"You have voted for TITSTITSDONGYIFF. Your vote is being processed now."

Well he's got my vote

It was a landslide victory. The celebratory party was uh.... unique to say the least.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Swtore states that Rakatan tech was "galaxy-altering".


Yea, it let them develop a galaxy-wide Empire that lasted for millennia.


The invention of the hyperdrive was also galaxy altering.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Great. Now, mind actually answering my question?


Your question: "And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?"


My answer: "They have similar offensive feats. As we can see, being able to destroy worlds or even stars doesn't make one invincible- and being an entity or weapon, that should apply fairly evenly, since we're just talking feats."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Seriously, where did this idea that bigger is better come from? Didn't seem to stop Japan.

Japan lost, badly. They never had a chance. Their best military mind noted, "We'll win for six months. Then things go against us."



Note they gained a lot of territory, initially with surprise on their side and a big initial build-up vs a foe not expecting war, then had to stop and build supply lines and try and build up again after their forces tired out, and even with stuff like the Sun Razer providing them a number of superweapons, when the war restarted things didn't actually go great for them. They're very reliant on superweapons and stuff like the Dread Masters and various force related things, straight up they hit strategic walls.




Yea, they were successful, but they were also taken down by not one, but multiple simultaneous big problems. And even after taking them down, the Rakatan had a mere 500 worlds.

And 'wide spread' is relative. Their stuff is found across the galaxy, but just like the Rakatan, only on a fairly small number of worlds. They weren't wide spread like the Galactic Empire.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

First, the notion that size isn't important or even potentially decisive smacks of some deep-seated Freudian denial. Not only does the Empire control vastly more territory than any TOR faction, it therefore possesses vastly more industry, manpower, and resources on which to draw. These things are very much relevant in any military engagement, real or fictional.


Right, very true. The GEmpire is almost twice the size of the areas in KOTOR, and TOR is much closer to KotoR than the Empire.

While expansion comes slowly in Star Wars, there was still a *lot* of gained territory in 4 millennia, and the GE actually pushed for a fair amount of settlement.

Here is the Rakatan Empire:

Infinite Empire Map

Here is the Galactic Empire:

Map, in it's early years


Here is the expansion over time:

Map- TOR is everything within light blue. Galactic Empire is everything.


And the Vong fought through a very big chunk of that.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, it let them develop a galaxy-wide Empire that lasted for millennia.


The invention of the hyperdrive was also galaxy altering.

No, it specifically says that their technology is galaxy-altering. They have things like the Mother Machine, which literally created the Twilek, Rattataki ect species. They have the Star Forge and Foundry. A tiny Rakatan box has the energy throughput of a sun and can create a nano-zombie virus. The Rakatans have the best tech seen in SW imo.

Originally posted by Q99
Your question: "And again, Q99, how are super weapons comparable to entities?"


My answer: "They have similar offensive feats. As we can see, being able to destroy worlds or even stars doesn't make one invincible- and being an entity or weapon, that should apply fairly evenly, since we're just talking feats."

That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it specifically says that their technology is galaxy-altering.

Q explained how their technology did indeed alter the galaxy, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Ron-Burgundy-Confused-Look-and-Smile-Conan.gif

Again, honestly not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying supernovae are more potent when caused by magic as opposed to science? Where's the obvious difference?

Q's comparison is quite apt: he's saying that the ability to defeat or suppress an object of extraordinary destruction isn't necessarily the hallmark of a god, especially when the circumstances of which are unknown. The Sun RazerCrusher could destroy solar systems and could tank shots from Star Destroyers(?) and was thwarted at least twice and not by the full military might of a galaxywide armada.

So again I ask:

Or put another way: The Emperor is a fleet-eater and planet-buster. Han Solo killed the Emperor. Your logic dictates that Han is not only superior to the Emperor but, by extension, worlds and fleets. Han can now solo Coruscant and the Eternal Fleet.

These are why examining circumstances are important.

You'd kind of have a point if Han Solo faced Palpatine head on.

Behold, you now grasp my appeal to consider the circumstances.

Now, as you've asked Q to answer your questions and he obliged, how about you answer one of mine: Have the circumstances of the Rakatan's defeat of The World Razer been made known?

Like others have already stated, it took the entire Empire ru defeat and they only imprisoned it on Belsavis. Hence my point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Q explained how their technology did indeed alter the galaxy, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I mean that it's not as in it's some revolutionary tech like the car or something. The quote I'm talking about is stating that the Rakata used Belsavis "to store galaxy-altering technology for potential later use." It's clearly talking about specific technology that can have galaxy-wide effects.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Ron-Burgundy-Confused-Look-and-Smile-Conan.gif

Again, honestly not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying supernovae are more potent when caused by magic as opposed to science? Where's the obvious difference?

Q's comparison is quite apt: he's saying that the ability to defeat or suppress an object of extraordinary destruction isn't necessarily the hallmark of a god, especially when the circumstances of which are unknown. The Sun RazerCrusher could destroy solar systems and could tank shots from Star Destroyers(?) and was thwarted at least twice and not by the full military might of a galaxywide armada.

So again I ask:

Creating some chemical compound that destabilizes a Sun's core or whatever obviously requires less direct energy than a being containing and consuming a Sun through it's own might, yes. Do you think it takes more power to create an explosion through combining various compounds that react violently together that blows up a building or do you think Sidious swatting it to dust with TK does?

The fact is that the World Razer isn't some machine you can just dismantle, or that you can take out the pilot or has a convenient weak spot you can blow up to destroy the whole thing or whatever. The Rakata beat it into submission but were explicitly incapable of killing it, hence why they needed to contain it. It's an entity capable of defending itself, which it did. But it wasn't enough. That's why it's impressive that they beat it into submission.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Like others have already stated, it took the entire Empire ru defeat and they only imprisoned it on Belsavis. Hence my point.

So the circumstances are not known. Which is fine. The problem is, as far as I know, nothing concrete is known about The World Razer either. I recall the Codex making references to cryptic warnings and inscriptions and very specifically stating that little is known about the thing itself.

Not sure how any of that is indicative of the Rakatan's ability to defeat the Vong, let alone the Galactic Empire.

Yeah, maybe they spiked it's drink and hogtied it in its sleep or something.

The Rakata are the Kappa Alpha of SW, those guys will roofie anything with midichlorians.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I mean that it's not as in it's some revolutionary tech like the car or something. The quote I'm talking about is stating that the Rakata used Belsavis "to store galaxy-altering technology for potential later use." It's clearly talking about specific technology that can have galaxy-wide effects.

But as Q points out, that technology did have galaxy-wide effects. His interpretation of how it affected the galaxy simply differs from yours and nowhere is your interpretation rendered "clear" in the text.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Creating some chemical compound that destabilizes a Sun's core or whatever obviously requires less direct energy than a being containing and consuming a Sun through it's own might, yes.

And you know the precise mechanics of The World Razer's alleged ability to incite supernovae?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think it takes more power to create an explosion through combining various compounds that react violently together that blows up a building or do you think Sidious swatting it to dust with TK does?

Since power in this context refers to "magic," then obviously the magical means is more magical than the non-magical means. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact is that the World Razer isn't some machine you can just dismantle, or that you can take out the pilot or has a convenient weak spot you can blow up to destroy the whole thing or whatever. The Rakata beat it into submission but were explicitly incapable of killing it, hence why they needed to contain it. It's an entity capable of defending itself, which it did. But it wasn't enough. That's why it's impressive that they beat it into submission.

You seem to know a lot more about The World Razer than what I think is given. How do you know it lacks a critical, convenient weakness? How do you know exactly how it allegedly destroys worlds and eats stars? Where can I examine the evidence?

The Death Star and Sun Crusher were each capable of defending themselves as well. It's just that their destructive output did not translate to equal defensiveness.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But as Q points out, that technology did have galaxy-wide effects. His interpretation of how it affected the galaxy simply differs from yours and nowhere is your interpretation rendered "clear" in the text.

No, that interpretation is "clear"ly wrong. As it says they stored the tech for potential future use. You can't do that if it's just some new hyperdrive that goes faster. You can revolutionise a technology twice with the same thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you know the precise mechanics of The World Razer's alleged ability to incite supernovae?

It didn't. It ate the stars.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since power in this context refers to "magic," then obviously the magical means is more magical than the non-magical means. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here.

Oh please. You're fine with using somethings weight to determine the strength of TK, there's no difference in using the amount of power it takes to destroy something with the Force. Something you've also done. Don't be a dingus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You seem to know a lot more about The World Razer than what I think is given. How do you know it lacks a critical, convenient weakness? How do you know exactly how it allegedly destroys worlds and eats stars? Where can I examine the evidence?

The Death Star and Sun Crusher were each capable of defending themselves as well. It's just that their destructive output did not translate to equal defensiveness.

Because they couldn't kill it. If it had a critical weakspot, doing so would be pretty easy. Also it states that it took the entire Rakatan empire to defeat it. Not just some hotshot pilot.

Also if it had a weakspot they'd have mentioned that for if it got out in the records. Not just said "oh shit don't let it get out holy **** holy ****."

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, that interpretation is "clear"ly wrong. As it says they stored the tech for potential future use. You can't do that if it's just some new hyperdrive that goes faster. You can revolutionise a technology twice with the same thing.

So revolutionary technology has no potential future use? mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
It didn't. It ate the stars.

Allegedly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh please. You're fine with using somethings weight to determine the strength of TK, there's no difference in using the amount of power it takes to destroy something with the Force. Something you've also done. Don't be a dingus.

And you know the exact mechanism for how The World Razer committed its alleged acts?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because they couldn't kill it. If it had a critical weakspot, doing so would be pretty easy. Also it states that it took the entire Rakatan empire to defeat it. Not just some hotshot pilot.

Also if it had a weakspot they'd have mentioned that for if it got out in the records. Not just said "oh shit don't let it get out holy **** holy ****."

All it takes to thwart The World Razer's escape is dumping some molten rock on it. I think you're not only overestimating its strength, you're also glossing over the hilarious lack of concrete information we have about it, its capabilities & weaknesses, and how it was defeated. On that note, I find it interesting that a thing that can eat stars and raze planets... is restrained by a planet.

Which is how we circle all the way back around to circumstances and the critical role they play.

The GE stomps. I'll leave the Vong to Q.

lol I just remembered: Dooku asks Sidious in Son of Dathomir why they can't just send Separatist "armies" to Dathomir to kill Talzin. Sidious tells him that such methods wouldn't defeat a witch that powerful.

Talzin > the Confederacy confirmed.

Originally posted by Nephthys

That's a dumb argument. There's an obvious difference between a machine that uses science to do something and an entity that did everything with it's own power. You can't shove a torpedo down the World Razer's waste hatch and have it chain-reaction blow up. The Sun Razer "wasn't that hard to stop" because it's a tiny ship that shoots missiles that cause a Sun to go supernova, it's not a massive being that went toe to toe with an entire civilisation in a straight fight.

There is a difference but not a power difference.

And note, it's just not the Sun Crusher, it's also Naga Sadow's Meditation Sphere. Which is channeling the power of a living being, so it's closer.


Besides from that, the World Razer is obviously harder to destroy than the sphere... but that's really all we know.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

All it takes to thwart The World Razer's escape is dumping some molten rock on it. I think you're not only overestimating its strength, you're also glossing over the hilarious lack of concrete information we have about it, its capabilities & weaknesses, and how it was defeated. On that note, I find it interesting that a thing that can eat stars and raze planets... is restrained by a planet.

Which is how we circle all the way back around to circumstances and the critical role they play.

The GE stomps. I'll leave the Vong to Q.

I wanna note that the Vong are noted to drop moons on people. Which tends to result in a lot of molten rock, among other things!


The GE are stronger than the Vong, but not drastically so, and 'tech wise' (which is weird to say with the Vong, but biotech is tech) I'd say the Vong have some edge if anything. Their ground units are better. Their Coralskippers required late-model X-wings to match, and are definitely better than TIEs. Their Kor Chokk grand cruisers were, well, smaller than Executor SSDs, but also very large powerful ships well in the class of big command ships of the era, and the only thing that'd outmatch a Worldship is a Death Star.


Basically, if the GE is a 10 in tech and a 10 in resources, the Vong are an 11 in tech and a 5 in resources to start out with.

The entire TOR is probably a 6 in resources (Maybe 7, what with all the hidden empires- who's first priority is ALWAYS to seize worlds for more resources, I'll note) a 6 or so in tech.

The Rakatan, 1 to 3 in resources (1 from their worlds, +1 from Star Forge), and tech... is a bit uneven. Their ships were able to be fought by Tython ships, though Tython did have home-field advantage and better unity and such. Shipwise, I'd kinda place the Rakatan at a 4 or 5, though things like the Star Forge definitely up their average to 6, maybe 7. Going based entirely on what we've seen, and not any hidden speculation stuff.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol I just remembered: Dooku asks Sidious in Son of Dathomir why they can't just send Separatist "armies" to Dathomir to kill Talzin. Sidious tells him that such methods wouldn't defeat a witch that powerful.

Talzin > the Confederacy confirmed.

In all likelyhood, she'd simply go and subvert the commander of whatever force into serving her

The Empire would stomp the Vong, let's be clear. I'll tolerate none of your rebellion heresy.

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo

Yeah, yeah, we're all familiar with that. But the Vong disagree.

I think Han's not entirely wrong, but the Empire would still win on resources even if they lost a superweapon or two in the process.

They also would've used infiltrators to try and convince Moffs, admirals, etc. to break away and similar.

Basically, the Vong can't beat a late era galactic civ straight up, they need to try and get it into internal fighting, because the GE, NR, and similar, are *so big*.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The idea that, because they couldn'tdidn't defeat the rebellion, the GE won't/can't stomp TOR-era factions is quite silly.
No, your argument is silly. Your perspective is utterly black and white.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, the notion that size isn't important or even potentially decisive smacks of some deep-seated Freudian denial. Not only does the Empire control vastly more territory than any TOR faction, it therefore possesses vastly more industry, manpower, and resources on which to draw. These things are very much relevant in any military engagement, real or fictional.
Can you provide some statistics?

The Old Republic controlled thousands of habitable worlds and its military might comprised of hundreds of fleets.

In-fact, the Great Galactic War was fought in thousands of habitable worlds and took place in Unknown Regions, habitable space controlled by the Empire, Core Worlds, Hutt Space and Distant Outer Rim.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
**On top of that, not only does the Empire outstrip any TOR faction in terms of territorial size and industrial base, but in terms of military strength, it's not even remotely comparable:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Imperial%20fleet%20largest%20ever_zpskdwafyij.jpg
If this source doesn't covers SWTOR related lore, I am taking it with a grain of salt on this matter.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Second, as Q correctly points out, the Empire's vessels have a distinct size and technological advantage {yes, size and mass are very much relevant in vessel-to-vessel comparisons} due to thousands of years of further research and experimentation.
The Old Republic developed large and powerful vessels as well such as Valor-class and Centurion-class. These vessels were (heavily) armed with Turbolaser canons, Quad laser turrets, Ion cannons, Proton torpedo tubes and Concussion missile launchers.

Now tell me something about the vessels of the Galactic Empire that is major leap from the technologies of the vessels of the Old Republic.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Third, the reason the Empire failed to defeat the Rebellion was due to the failures of its leadership, not its military capability. The Emperor had the rebellion by the balls at Endor {by his own design!} and could have decapitated the entire opposition in one fell swoop but opted for theatrics over efficiency. We know exactly why he did that. So unless there's a Skywalker involved somewhere, I'm doubting a repeat performance.
So you are admitting Palpatine's ineptness?

Good. Good.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All that said, yes, the Galactic Empire would absolutely take any TOR era faction to the curb. They're bigger, stronger, and faster to an absurd degree. Maybe after they're smashed, TOR insurgents will become a protracted nuisance to the Empire, but they will be smashed all the same and only after.
All major TOR era factions were immensely resourceful and developed super-weapons. No major TOR era faction will turn out to be a walk in the park for the Galactic Empire in a war.

I haven't touched upon the subject of superweapons and Force-users of the Old Republic era yet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The Old Republic controlled thousands of habitable worlds and its military might comprised of hundreds of fleets.

In-fact, the Great Galactic War was fought in thousands of habitable worlds and took place in Unknown Regions, habitable space controlled by the Empire, Core Worlds, Hutt Space and Distant Outer Rim.

The Empire has over a million worlds... you know those huge number of senate pods in the prequel trilogy? Those don't normally represent individual worlds, they represent *sectors*.

I'd estimate the TOR Republic in the hundreds of thousands easily.




The Centurion class is 3/4ths the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. It was used as a flagship, in relatively limited number.

Valors are smaller than Centurions. They're 500 meters long, but taller and thicker than most ships. They were a rough match for the 800 meter Harrower.

Smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer, which is a ship the Imperial Navy was slowly phasing out due to being small and out of date.... though it turned out to be good at pirate hunting and similar tsks, so the design persisted.


What was once considered a strong line battleship, is now smaller than something considered too small to be the front line. What was once considered a heavy flagship, is now smaller than an Imperial ship of the line.


Basically, a TOR scout coming on an average bog standard Imperial fleet would think they walked in to a Flagship convention, with some *especially* big, impressive, extra size new flagships. If there were no Imperial flagships present.



The Executor class is 19,000 meters, a size unheard of back in their era. Similarly, other Star Dreadnaught class ships like the Bellator and Mandator were 7km, 12km, and other large sizes.

Ship construction technologies have improved in the ability to make big scale ships for

Also, fighter technology has improved. Sith Fighters and Republic fighters of the time were both lightly armed and armored. Two laser cannons were the norm, little to no shields... sure, kinda predecessors to the base TIE there, but the Interceptor would be heavily armed by their standards, and something like the TIE Advanced or TIE Defender would be mobile death machines with no fighter even coming close. Defenders have several times the firepower as well as great shields for a fighter.

Furthermore... no fighters of the TOR era had hyperdrives. While the Galactic Empire normally didn't equip fighters with hyperdrives (viewing it as a waste for mass-produced carrier based craft), Advanceds, Defenders, Assault Gunboats, and a few other less common craft. Heck, Interceptors *could* handle them (Thrawn modified his), they just weren't equipped. So Hyperdrive technology has gotten more miniaturized too.


I also believe a basic TIE is probably faster and more maneuverable than their predecessors, an Interceptor definitely so, but that's harder to demonstrate. Firepower and shielding and hyperdrives are easier to show- there were no old era analogs to the Rebellion era elite fighters, and none of the base fighters have the capability of an X-wing.

In the big and the small, the Galactic Empire holds the advantage.




Note, a number of the TOR superweapons are simply 'superships,' exceptional flagships like the Ascendant Spear... and are outmatched by Imperial mass produced ships.

Stuff like the Silencer superlaser is nice, but mounted on a fairly fragile package as these things go. Those can inflict some unexpected casualties, but aren't remotely war winners when all the ships of the line are outsized. Pop a few ISDs before going down, to be sure, but go down it would, and there's plenty of ISDs.

None of the superweapons really compare to a Death Star.



While their size and ready fleets means they'd put up a fight in a war if they were hit right at the end of the cold war, their fleet is ultimately grass, all it can do is try and buy time with spending ships and territory against the superior opponent and hope the force users can pull something off through non-military means.

After a few years of fighting each other... the two main TOR powers were so exhausted the Eternal Empire was able to roll up much of both in just five years, and they don't have the resources or ship sizes of the Galactic Empire.

Q regarding the TIE fighter while it did lack shielding and armor, made up for in speed and maneuverability their firepower was pretty impressive too, which couple with the pilot's skill(who are noted the best in the galaxy) made it deadly. An example being, the Death Star Attack or the Falcon attack.

The TIEs for the Falcon even while just putting on a show and holding back, were able to do some pretty good damage and evade the cannons.

Death Star, Luke(being known as a great pilot even before the X-wing) and Biggs(former Imperial pilot himself) had great trouble against the TIE fighters.

All in all, the standard TIE fighter gets a lot of shit....which I get it, but it's still a highly maneuverable and speedy fighter with powerful laser cannons. It doesn't have shields or armor, but the pilot's skill is suppose to make up for that.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Q regarding the TIE fighter while it did lack shielding and armor, made up for in speed and maneuverability their firepower was pretty impressive too, which couple with the pilot's skill made it deadly. An example being, the Death Star Attack or the Falcon attack.

I quite agree!

It's my opinion that compared to older fighters, TIEs would be speedier and more maneuverable and have stronger laser canons.


It's just when comparing technologies, it's easier and more obvious to point out the TOR doesn't even have an equivalent to the fancier Imperial fighters.


A TIE is likely an incremental improvement. A Defender is a bundle with no equivalent in any catagory.

The TIE fighter was actually noted in a source as being the best fighter during the time, outdoing the Z-95 Headhunter and was pretty much the best up until the X-wing came along. As I recall anyway and even then it's still noted as one of the fastest and maneuverable in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Q99
The Empire has over a million worlds... you know those huge number of senate pods in the prequel trilogy? Those don't normally represent individual worlds, they represent *sectors*.

I'd estimate the TOR Republic in the hundreds of thousands easily.
This type of comparison is meaningless. Controlling so many worlds is not practical for any Empire (or) Republic because a lot of resources would be diverted for the said purpose and this would strain the logistics. Expenditure would be insane as well.

If memory serves me correctly, a source reveals that the Galactic Empire invested much of its resources on controlling a large number of worlds which proved to be counterproductive for its effectiveness in a war and the rebels took advantage of this situation.

A large number of habitable worlds are not industrial in nature. The Galactic Empire had only 30 worlds at its disposal that were resourceful enough to meet its military requirements. There aren't many Correllia-types out there.

Originally posted by Q99
The Centurion class is 3/4ths the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. It was used as a flagship, in relatively limited number.

Valors are smaller than Centurions. They're 500 meters long, but taller and thicker than most ships. They were a rough match for the 800 meter Harrower.

Smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer, which is a ship the Imperial Navy was slowly phasing out due to being small and out of date.... though it turned out to be good at pirate hunting and similar tsks, so the design persisted.


What was once considered a strong line battleship, is now smaller than something considered too small to be the front line. What was once considered a heavy flagship, is now smaller than an Imperial ship of the line.
The larger is better philosophy is utterly flawed.

History is filled with examples of small vessels taking on much larger and advanced vessels and prevailing due to sheer numbers and/or superior tactics employed and/or additional factors in battles. Small vessels can be mass-produced due to lower costs and can be utilized to swarm even a fleet of large vessels in a battlefield.

A huge starship undoubtedly packs considerable firepower but it is also extremely expensive to maintain and operate, and its loss in a battle can negatively influence the morale of the troops. The Executor-class was designed to intimidate potential adversaries and discourage them from resisting the Galactic Empire but it was not a practical weapon-system and failed to live up to its expectations because the philosophy behind it was utterly flawed. Heck, a (single) A-wing Starfighter brought one down during the Battle of Endor.

The mainstay of the military capability of the Galactic Empire in the space was the Imperial-class. These vessels were practical and could be fielded in much higher numbers then the significantly larger showpieces during battles.

During the Old Republic timeline, Valor-class and Harrower-class proved to be practical designs. They packed considerable firepower and could be fielded in large numbers during battles.

The best thing about Harrower-class design, in particular, was its customization potential. A single Harrower-class vessel could be transformed into a mobile superweapon capable of one-shotting an entire fleet of the Republic and even a planet.

However, technological evolution in Star Wars is not like in real life. There are numerous examples of ancient creations that defy logic and the notion of technological evolution in the lore. For example, an ancient vessel Gravestone possessed sufficient firepower to one-shot an entire fleet of advanced vessels in space. This vessel predated the existence of Harrower-class by centuries and it became a stuff of myths and legends until it was rediscovered by the Outlander. And Gravestone was a as per starship standards.

Heck, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire developed a superweapon that could one-shot a starship (of any size) even in hyperspace. I do not recall Galactic Empire developing a superweapon of similar capability.

Originally posted by Q99
Basically, a TOR scout coming on an average bog standard Imperial fleet would think they walked in to a Flagship convention, with some *especially* big, impressive, extra size new flagships. If there were no Imperial flagships present.
Republic forces, during SWTOR period, feared nothing. They were revolutionized and groomed for war after the debacles of Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Republic forces peaked in preparations for a war and combat efficiency during the span of years between the Jedi Civil War and the Great Galactic War.

Originally posted by Q99
The Executor class is 19,000 meters, a size unheard of back in their era. Similarly, other Star Dreadnaught class ships like the Bellator and Mandator were 7km, 12km, and other large sizes.
Covered above.

Originally posted by Q99
Ship construction technologies have improved in the ability to make big scale ships for
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire started developing some Star Forge-like manufacturing facilities at some point but such programs were sabotaged by the agents of the Republic during the Great Galactic War. Objective was to accelerate the production of state-of-the-art vessels and significantly shorten their production duration (from 10 years to a single year for each state-of-the-art vessel).

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire embraced the philosophy of technological and industrial superiority over potential adversaries but the Old Republic had too much resources at its disposal to throw at the Empire in different sectors and sabotage its progress.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, fighter technology has improved. Sith Fighters and Republic fighters of the time were both lightly armed and armored. Two laser cannons were the norm, little to no shields... sure, kinda predecessors to the base TIE there, but the Interceptor would be heavily armed by their standards, and something like the TIE Advanced or TIE Defender would be mobile death machines with no fighter even coming close. Defenders have several times the firepower as well as great shields for a fighter.
Both the Old Republic and reconstituted ancient Sith Empire developed vessels to fulfill different roles. Some were designed with the philosophy of advantages in maneuverability and speed and some were designed with the philosophy of advantages in firepower and protection.

Most of the military assets of the Galactic Empire were based on the concepts introduced by the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire centuries earlier. Palpatine acknowledged this in his own remarks while checking ancient records.

Originally posted by Q99
Furthermore... no fighters of the TOR era had hyperdrives. While the Galactic Empire normally didn't equip fighters with hyperdrives (viewing it as a waste for mass-produced carrier based craft), Advanceds, Defenders, Assault Gunboats, and a few other less common craft. Heck, Interceptors *could* handle them (Thrawn modified his), they just weren't equipped. So Hyperdrive technology has gotten more miniaturized too.
You sure about this?

Imperial agents used vessels that were absolutely state-of-the-art, stealthy in design and equipped with an advanced hyperdrive. Their purpose was to sneak into enemy positions undetected and sabotage their activities.

As for the hyperdrives, I haven't noticed progress in this area throughout the lore. Galactic Empire manufactured and utilized class 2.0 hyperdrives . Same is true for the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire but it manufactured more advanced hyperdrives as well (approaching class 5.0 and/or above) for use in military assets.

Originally posted by Q99
I also believe a basic TIE is probably faster and more maneuverable than their predecessors, an Interceptor definitely so, but that's harder to demonstrate. Firepower and shielding and hyperdrives are easier to show- there were no old era analogs to the Rebellion era elite fighters, and none of the base fighters have the capability of an X-wing.

In the big and the small, the Galactic Empire holds the advantage.
Wrong, my friend.

Originally posted by Q99
Note, a number of the TOR superweapons are simply 'superships,' exceptional flagships like the Ascendant Spear... and are outmatched by Imperial mass produced ships.

Stuff like the Silencer superlaser is nice, but mounted on a fairly fragile package as these things go. Those can inflict some unexpected casualties, but aren't remotely war winners when all the ships of the line are outsized. Pop a few ISDs before going down, to be sure, but go down it would, and there's plenty of ISDs.

None of the superweapons really compare to a Death Star.
Haven't read such garbage in a while.

Ascendant Spear can one-shot a starship of any size and an entire fleet as well. Few Imperial Starships matched its firepower.

Moreover, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire developed planet-busters as well. While no ancient vessel matched the firepower of Death Star , the best among them could destroy the Death Star itself nonetheless.

In-fact, a small number of stealthy Starfighters could sneak right through the defenses of Death Star and sabotage its power core like the rebels.

Originally posted by Q99
While their size and ready fleets means they'd put up a fight in a war if they were hit right at the end of the cold war, their fleet is ultimately grass, all it can do is try and buy time with spending ships and territory against the superior opponent and hope the force users can pull something off through non-military means.

After a few years of fighting each other... the two main TOR powers were so exhausted the Eternal Empire was able to roll up much of both in just five years, and they don't have the resources or ship sizes of the Galactic Empire.
Technological superiority makes it easier to accomplish objectives but tactics, public support for the war-effort and courage lead to victory in a war.

Galactic Empire may have technological edge over ancient superpowers but it isn't steamrolling one in the manner as you presume. Victory in a war is dependent upon a number of factors.

If the Galactic Empire is able to bring its entire power to bear and does not suffers major setbacks during the war, then it can defeat any known civilization. However, if it suffers major setbacks during the war then it will loose. Galactic Empire have its own share of weaknesses which can be exploited.

The reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, in particular, was well-done in all aspects; state-of-the-art technology complemented by a large number of powerful Force-users and brilliant tacticians. This is how it managed to defeat a much larger and more resourceful Republic during the Great Galactic War but it failed to capitalize on its gains because Emperor Valkorion turned on his Sith allies during a crucial phase of the lengthy conflict for personal gains. In-fact, some Sith conspired against him after learning about his horrific history and aided agents of the Republic at stopping him.

If the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had achieved its peak industrial capability (with completion of its Star Forge-like projects), nothing could stop it. However, war hampered its progress and internal strife proved to be its undoing.

vongs stomp in a matter of days wtf

That's not the point of the thread.