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I know that when you are one with the force physically while you are alive you can pretty much do anything. Examples of users are luke and jacen. This does not last forever though, like you can t always be in that state. I do believe that one could do it at will with enough practice however.

but we all know that no one in star wars was as powerful as the ones and the celestials but do you think someone grow become that powerful over time?

Force users in a state of Oneness are still apparently less powerful than the Ones. Luke Skywalker, the most powerful mortal force user, in a state of Oneness got smacked down by Abeloth.

Yes. If Vitiates ritual had succeeded, he'd have eclipsed them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. If Vitiates ritual had succeeded, he'd have eclipsed them. There were a lot of people who found this claim ridiculous but I agree. Its not just Vitaite, anyone who could actually pull off that ritual including a mere padawan/acolyte would indeed surpass anyone in the mythos imo.

Doubt it. The Ones appear to be universal entities, not a galactic one like Valkorion would become.

I lol at the idea of that tbh. Especially if we take Legends into account since Abeloth is just a dozen times more powerful than Luke who is probably a billion times inferior to a universal being.

Just a possibility, TBH. The Force expands to other galaxies and the Ones are the sole embodiments of it.

Abeloth being a dozen times more powerful than Skywalker is a classic example for the hyperbole.

For the record, I don't recognize Abeloth being on the playing field with the Ones.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Doubt it. The Ones appear to be universal entities, not a galactic one like Valkorion would become.

Ah, ES2 agrees with me.

mmm

Looks like I'm wrong, ROFL.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. If Vitiates ritual had succeeded, he'd have eclipsed them.

Lulz.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Just a possibility, TBH. The Force expands to other galaxies and the Ones are the sole embodiments of it.

Abeloth being a dozen times more powerful than Skywalker is a classic example for the hyperbole.

For the record, I don't recognize Abeloth being on the playing field with the Ones. Their methods didnt seem that superior to Jedi/Sith tbh. Being literally universal level should kinda make them omnipotent and at a level where they shouldn't even need bodies to exist let alone die when their bodies die or age.

The whole universal thing seems more like hyperbole to me. Especially since we've seen some showings to place Abeloth more concretely compared to Ones who have absolutely no showings to suggest they're universal.

Didn't it take two of them to defeat her?

Well god damn it guys.

The Father defeated Abeloth on his own.

I obviously wasn't talking about the Father lol

Originally posted by Sinious
I obviously wasn't talking about the Father lol
Then what's your point? No one else has ever defeated her one on one, or without a very large group.

I was referring to the Son and the Daughter and lol @ the Ones being millions of times stronger than Abeloth.

Originally posted by Darth Demenos
I know that when you are one with the force physically while you are alive you can pretty much do anything. Examples of users are luke and jacen. This does not last forever though, like you can t always be in that state. I do believe that one could do it at will with enough practice however.

but we all know that no one in star wars was as powerful as the ones and the celestials but do you think someone grow become that powerful over time?

Yeah, they could, But as oneness shows. It's just a glimpse of something a celestial or universal being could achieve.

I honestly think that no one can achieve that state with tremendous power and a deadly consequence.

a great example of this is Dorsk 81. He had to draw on the focal points of power from yavin, and the power of notable Jedi like Solusar, Tionne, Streen, Kirana Ti, Horn and several more, and with that he was able to hurl a great number of Star Destroyers into another sector(i think)

So, force users could likely achieve the same result, but only with concentrated effort and a great reservoir of power. even then, they'd likely die due to their inability to control that power.

Originally posted by Sinious
I was referring to the Son and the Daughter and lol @ the Ones being millions of times stronger than Abeloth.
They never defeated her, so...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They never defeated her, so... As in they lost or they never fought her? People seem to have different opinions on Son/Daughter vs Abeloth confrontation.

It's heavily symbolic, IMO. They easily have the power to defeat her alone but only through the combined usage of the light and dark can chaos be tamed.

Even if we all agree on that, do you honestly believe that a One > Abeloth x millions?

Unless you're Anakin Skywalker, going into oneness is not putting you on the Ones' level. And I mean literally the next guy down in Force potential got smacked down by Abeloth in a state of oneness.

Originally posted by Darth Demenos
I know that when you are one with the force physically while you are alive you can pretty much do anything. Examples of users are luke and jacen. This does not last forever though, like you can t always be in that state. I do believe that one could do it at will with enough practice however.

but we all know that no one in star wars was as powerful as the ones and the celestials but do you think someone grow become that powerful over time?
It is possible.

Valkorion represents a good case. He discovered methods to overcome his biological cap and have achieved immortality. He is a world-buster at the moment.

Darth Plagueis mused that Valkorion was heading in that* direction.

*That -> The Ones

The answer is an obvious and responding yes. After all, Anakin briefly surpassed them.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Unless you're Anakin Skywalker, going into oneness is not putting you on the Ones' level. And I mean literally the next guy down in Force potential got smacked down by Abeloth in a state of oneness.

i ve never read the books so how did he get smacked down if he was in oneness?

Originally posted by Darth Demenos
i ve never read the books so how did he get smacked down if he was in oneness?
Abeloth was simply more powerful than Luke even when he was in a state of Oneness.

Then there's another point in FOTJ where Ben Skywalker enters a state of Oneness and hits Abeloth with a TK blast as powerful as he can muster, but Abeloth is only knocked back a few centimeters.

Never.

Yes, but that plays heavily into what one perceives the Force as and how one views what Plagueis and Sidious did to make Anakin was and on and on.

Anyways, taking this question at complete and utter face-value, yes.

I found this particular storyline to be awful in the Star Wars mythos.

My argument is still not refuted. The Ones aren't uber universal beings. They're just a lot more powerful than any other character there is.

Only if we ignore what the Father says...

What does he say that would make you think the Ones are millions of times stronger than other characters?

He says they'd blow up the universe.

Oh wait, no he doesn't.

Originally posted by Sinious
What does he say that would make you think the Ones are millions of times stronger than other characters?

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/betweentheshadows/files/2015/05/Straw-Man.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
He says they'd blow up the universe.

Oh wait, no he doesn't.

He pretty much does. He says "that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

Originally posted by Nephthys
He says they'd blow up the universe.

Oh wait, no he doesn't.

Originally posted by ares834
He pretty much does. He says "that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

Which doesn't mean they'd damage all of it. I could tear the fabric of my clothes, doesn't mean I shredded my whole outfit.

Originally posted by ares834
He pretty much does. He says "that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." Could be interpreted in different ways. And lol @ taking one quote of one of them said while trying to convince Anakin to do something for him as a reliable source especially since all of their showings and their very nature of existence proves the opposite of that.

My shirts ripped, but most of it is intact.

Sidious tore the fabric of reality too. He wasn't a billion times everyone else.

The Force existed before them and continued to exist after them as well. Don't see how the entire aura of the alignments flow through them.

Luke surmises that the Force, or at least reality, remains intact largely because of the Jedi and the Sith taking the place of the Ones, so that really doesn't help your point, Sinious.

Originally posted by Sinious
The Force existed before them and continued to exist after them as well. Don't see how the entire aura of the alignments flow through them.

Well they don't exist in the temporal plane so time is sorta irrelevant. With that said, Qui-Gon straight up says the Force of the universe flows through Mortis. And they preside and rule Mortis... Hence my statement.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luke surmises that the Force, or at least reality, remains intact largely because of the Jedi and the Sith taking the place of the Ones, so that really doesn't help your point, Sinious. okay then? Originally posted by ares834
Well they don't exist in the temporal plane so time is sorta irrelevant. With that said, Qui-Gon straight up says the Force of the universe flows through Mortis. And they preside and rule Mortis... Hence my statement. What? Weren't they born like a million years before PT? I'm sure the Force is older than they are.

Originally posted by Sinious
What? Weren't they born like a million years before PT? I'm sure the Force is older than they are.

Okay? What does this have to do with what I said?

My earlier point was that force existed before them.

Get back to my first point though, which is they're not millions of times more powerful than Abeloth and Abeloth who again isn't THAT much above Luke. And again, their showings suggest that they're very much comparable to Jedi/Sith even though they are superior in most things.

Originally posted by ares834
He pretty much does. He says "that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

Refuting it how? Abeloth by itself is enough proof. The original argument was that if any force user could pull off Vitiate's failed ritual, they would become an entity that has consumed the energy of the entire galaxy. In fact, in protag's vision, Vitiate even consumes the stars.

Since he is a Luke/Sidious tier force user at his point, imagine how much more powerful he would become by consuming the galaxy? Even just %20 of his current power relies on Natemha, this would still mean that he would become millions of times more powerful. Are you saying that, Sidious/Luke/Yoda/Ahsoka/Bandon/whoever x millions is still inferior to beings(The Ones) who are comparable to a being(Abeloth) who is a couple times more powerful than Luke?

Oh, so this was all about you wanking Vitiate once more.

LOL good job accusing instead of coming up with an actual argument.

This seems to be the case in almost every thread on KMC.

Why would I refute your argument when it's a giant ass strawman? I've already stated I'm not arguing against the notion that they aren't millions of times more powerful than any other force user. What I am arguing against is your notion that they are't considered universal. They are.

That these beings are maintaining the balance of the force is pretty much what the entire trilogy of episodes is about....

I also like how we know exactly how powerful Vitiate would become with a ritual he hypothetically would have performed.

@ Ares

So you're arguing something completely irrelevant to the thread. I never claimed that they're not maintaining the balance in this sense. This thread is about whether someone can surpass them in power or not and since Neph gave the ritual as an example which should logically make any character thousands of times more powerful than they were before, they would be able to surpass them. Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I also like how we know exactly how powerful Vitiate would become with a ritual he hypothetically would have performed. I don't think anyone could actually pull off what he was going for but considering how much power one can obtain from draining a planet or two, the galaxy drain should be A LOT more than that.

Logically speaking something has to be possible for it to be relevant to this thread. And you just said you didn't think it was possible. I think you see where I'm going with this.

Pretty sure sources stated that it would have succeeded and if it had he would have been the strongest force user in history.

Pretty sure sources also already claim he is.

Doubt it. Vitiate would have likely been the closest if his Galaxy spanning ritual succeeded.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Logically speaking something has to be possible for it to be relevant to this thread. And you just said you didn't think it was possible. I think you see where I'm going with this. As in I don't think anyone would end up draining the entire galaxy and end the lore. Logically, he should've just drained %10 of the galaxy, and then, %30, and then the rest etc. instead of going for all of it right away but that would actually work and its not doable for the sake of the story.

To be honest, Valkorion is on the verge of becoming like The Ones and Abeloth. Some of his showings are already on par with theirs.

Darth Plagueis had limited knowledge of Valkorion and he felt that Valkorion was already half-way through towards the path of becoming like The Ones. Valkorion have come a long way since then .

I,don't personally believe any being could ever reach the level of the ones. I beleive they've reached a level only they could achieve.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
]
Darth Plagueis had limited knowledge of Valkorion and he felt that Valkorion was already half-way through towards the path of becoming like The Ones. Valkorion have come a long way since then . If we're basing our arguments on Plagueis' opinions though, he is superior to Vitiate. So I'd say just using what we know of him(which is a lot) is a healthier approach tbh.

Well, if they drink from the Font of Power and bathe in the Pool of Knowledge like Abeloth, then they're likely to become similarly powerful, yeah.

Originally posted by ares834
Oh, so this was all about you wanking Vitiate once more.

Originally posted by Sinious
As in I don't think anyone would end up draining the entire galaxy and end the lore. Logically, he should've just drained %10 of the galaxy, and then, %30, and then the rest etc. instead of going for all of it right away but that would actually work and its not doable for the sake of the story.
What does this have to do with anything? Logically Sidious can't fry Luke or Vader and end the lore. I to can make random statements.

We are questioning if anyone could surpass the Ones. Had Vitiate just continued to drain planet after planet after Ziost, imagine how powerful he would become and how powerful his drain would be. He could then attempt his mega ritual and consume star systems etc. until he kills everything in the galaxy. This would make him surpass the Ones. Simple as that.

That would take thousands of years. Galaxy's kind of big. You're also assuming his power would continue to grow exponentially indefinitely, which imo is a big assumption.

It wouldn't if he started draining more vastly each time. Like I said, going for a couple planets first, then %10 of the galaxy, then %20 etc. wouldn't take him that long.

I'd say there's quite a possibility that they'll be an eventual limit where Vitiate either consumes himself or suffers something similar to Nox with the Ghosts, only on a more severe scale and without a cure.