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Explain yourself. All showings welcome. (Preboot and New 52 Clark)

What is far and away? Are you talking about tiers?

Don't forget Hulk, Superman is supposedly way more powerful than him too.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Don't forget Hulk, Superman is supposedly way more powerful than him too.

And don't forget Goku and One Punch Man.

Lol...no one is on One Punch Man level. He is in a tier of his own.

Originally posted by carver9
What is far and away? Are you talking about tiers?
Seems that way for a large portion of Superman fans.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Don't forget Hulk, Superman is supposedly way more powerful than him too.
You can add Hulk too.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
And don't forget Goku and One Punch Man.
No one is stronger than Caped Baldy

Caped baldy could one shot galactus on a good day

I'm pretty sure Superman still keeps some of Thor's launch money.

Just to answer this question:
Originally posted by One-Punch
How many total appearances does DCNU Superman have in the past two years? Including his appearances in Superboy and Supergirl comics?

From Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_New_52_imprint_publications):
JL 1-40
Action Comics 1-40
Superman/WW 1-17
Superman 1-40
Superman Unchaine 1-9

That's....146. I've obviously missed annuals etc out, plus post-Convergence, so let's say 160 comics. Add in his guest appearances, so let's say 170 comics.

Of those 170, he's not going to be doing feats in every single issue - a lot of them will be him showing up, then flying off. Neither will every issue feature a fight scene, or have Superman at full power (him being depowered, for example, or just learning to use his powers etc.).

For that reason, I would say...he has 70 fights/feats (so less than half of his comics involve him fighting or being measured, just him standing around talking or some crap.

Go from there, I guess.

Kind of not sure this should stay open, but I'll give it a little while for now.

For me, the answer depends on what version you're using. And by that I don't mean PreCrisis, PostCrisis or New 52. I'm talking about the writer that's writing them.

If Grant Morrison is writing Superman, then the answer to the OP is yes. He literally sees Superman as the guardian of "story", and has more often than not put him well and ahead of any of his supposed "peers".

Now, if it's say, Geoff Johns, then the answer is no. Johns' Superman is STILL the top herald in DC, but he's still a herald by the definitions we use on the board.

I don't think it's a question that can be definitively answered, tbh, unless you're willing to accept that Grant Morrison's portrayal of the character is just as valid as say, James "the hack" Robinson, or Dwayne McDuffie's (who by his own admission nerfed Superman for the purposes of the book).

Superman does straddle the line between herald and trans as much if not more often than the others too, I would argue.

Also, keep manga/anime characters out of this.

"How can he be more powerful when Surfer beats him in the first Pico second via a kryptonite+red sun blast? Or just drain him?
He's already faster because he flew so fast that one time, more durable because Tenebrous and Aegis and Superman's HV doesn't works on him because he goes through stars. He is also almost as strong. Just wait while he amps to Unilord level and beats even Sundipped superman in h2h. "

10/10 times of course."

/surfer fan


Ask any true surfer fan like JBL or Darthgoober who challenged entire forum to convince him about Superman taking a single win against Surfer.

Nobody argued about that though.

I agree with Pr. Superman is, depending on the writer, above the Heralds and imo even above cosmic beings like Galactus and LT. For other writers and for the sake of an earth based story he is normally depowered to Herald or Trans levels.

So what should be used in a CBvF? Normally we go by full potential, since Supermans true potential has no limits this would mean it's best to leave him out of this. Or we agree on his Herald level showings and depower him for the Forums like some writers depower him for the stories, so the Heralds from other comic book companies have at least the chance to compete.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Of course he is, give or take.
So surfer doesn't wins 10/10 against Superman?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I agree with Pr. Superman is, depending on the writer, above the Heralds and imo even above cosmic beings like Galactus and LT. For other writers and for the sake of an earth based story he is normally depowered to Herald or Trans levels.

So what should be used in a CBvF? Normally we go by full potential, since Supermans true potential has no limits this would mean it's best to leave him out of this. Or we agree on his Herald level showings and depower him for the Forums like some writers depower him for the stories, so the Heralds from other comic book companies have at least the chance to compete.

Use the same logic as you would for She Hulk and Lobos' Looney Tunes powers, because that's what you're essentially saying. Plot driven powers = She Hulk ripping pages up and Animal Man shrinking comic panels.

Originally posted by abhilegend
"How can he be more powerful when Surfer beats him in the first Pico second via a kryptonite+red sun blast? Or just drain him?
He's already faster because he flew so fast that one time, more durable because Tenebrous and Aegis and Superman's HV doesn't works on him because he goes through stars. He is also almost as strong. Just wait while he amps to Unilord level and beats even Sundipped superman in h2h. "

10/10 times of course."

/surfer fan


Ask any true surfer fan like JBL or Darthgoober who challenged entire forum to convince him about Superman taking a single win against Surfer.

Nobody argued about that though.



Don't think anyone said Surfer beats Superman 10/10.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Kind of not sure this should stay open, but I'll give it a little while for now.

For me, the answer depends on what version you're using. And by that I don't mean PreCrisis, PostCrisis or New 52. I'm talking about the writer that's writing them.

If Grant Morrison is writing Superman, then the answer to the OP is yes. He literally sees Superman as the guardian of "story", and has more often than not put him well and ahead of any of his supposed "peers".

Now, if it's say, Geoff Johns, then the answer is no. Johns' Superman is STILL the top herald in DC, but he's still a herald by the definitions we use on the board.

I don't think it's a question that can be definitively answered, tbh, unless you're willing to accept that Grant Morrison's portrayal of the character is just as valid as say, James "the hack" Robinson, or Dwayne McDuffie's (who by his own admission nerfed Superman for the purposes of the book).

Superman does straddle the line between herald and trans as much if not more often than the others too, I would argue.

Also, keep manga/anime characters out of this. let's simplify this: how many writers would have him be a good match against darkseid? Do you think more than 2 or 3 out of dozens wouldn't?

Geoff johns currently has anti monitor and darkseid as peers. Do you think it's a coincidence superman is on apokolips throughout the story, away from them?

Remember how the same geoff had young superman as the go to guy for fighting him in the early jla?

So this stems around Darkseid?

Originally posted by carver9
So this stems around Darkseid? he's the easiest to scale around since he's at worst thanos level and at best universal/multiversal. Anybody denying darkseid.wouldn't be portrayed as AT LEAST a peer to Thanos is, frankly, too ignorant to even participate in the discussion

Darkseid could only beat Superman with BFR.

Aquaman never stabbed DS; that's fan art.


IOW, carver, you're the worst person to talk about n52 showings. Remember when you were adamant Cyborg never used his white noise cannon in the first JL issues?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Use the same logic as you would for She Hulk and Lobos' Looney Tunes powers, because that's what you're essentially saying. Plot driven powers = She Hulk ripping pages up and Animal Man shrinking comic panels.

You didn't understand, it's not only about the plot but the role of Superman. Neither Surfer, nor Thor nor Hulk nor anyone else has Supermans status, as shown by Morrison.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Darkseid could only beat Superman with BFR.

Aquaman never stabbed DS; that's fan art.


IOW, carver, you're the worst person to talk about n52 showings. Remember when you were adamant Cyborg never used his white noise cannon in the first JL issues?

I don't remember that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Should I post your quotes.
Greg Pak flat out said that Superman was close to him in power and Earth 2 Superman was actually equal to him in power.

Yes, post earlier quotes where I gave Surfer 10/10 against Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Should I post your quotes.
Greg Pak flat out said that Superman was close to him in power and Earth 2 Superman was actually equal to him in power.

Superman also said that none of them can fight Mongul one on one and win.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/145849/4074148-3950928-bmsm-6-4-39d3d-1024x665.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
I don't remember that.

DS and Aquaman:
Originally posted by carver9
Darkseid was stabbed in the eyes by it. That's different than stabbing someone in let's say, the chest.

Originally posted by -Pr-

if you'd read the comic, you'd know that aquaman stabbed him in the chest too. or even, you know, looked at my sig...

Originally posted by carver9
You changed your Sig to make it look like that happened. Good job Pr.

Cyborg and the white noise cannon:
Originally posted by carver9
You know debating doesn't work like that. Spiderman has endured hits from top tiers as well.

I agree, if Vic starts off with an attack like that, it would probably end the fight. Glad CIS is on and wasn't that parademon showing non canon to the real Vic?

Originally posted by carver9

What showing are you talking about with the Parademon because if it's the one I think you are talking about, it isn't canon to the real Vic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DS and Aquaman:






Cyborg and the white noise cannon:

Don't get it. Anyways, what's your thoughts on the topic.?

I think Surfer is more powerful on the up and up, but he usually fights like a retard most of the time so theres that. Thor should be able to win sometimes due to the hammer, but I wouldnt give him a majority. Physically, it isnt a contest, Supes hands down, but the other two are way more versatile.

Bottom line-
Surfer - Yes
Thor - No

And before people yell that Thor has beaten Surfer more times than not, I already said Surfer is portrayed as retarded a lot of times.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just to answer this question:


From Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_New_52_imprint_publications):
JL 1-40
Action Comics 1-40
Superman/WW 1-17
Superman 1-40
Superman Unchaine 1-9

That's....146. I've obviously missed annuals etc out, plus post-Convergence, so let's say 160 comics. Add in his guest appearances, so let's say 170 comics.

Of those 170, he's not going to be doing feats in every single issue - a lot of them will be him showing up, then flying off. Neither will every issue feature a fight scene, or have Superman at full power (him being depowered, for example, or just learning to use his powers etc.).

For that reason, I would say...he has 70 fights/feats (so less than half of his comics involve him fighting or being measured, just him standing around talking or some crap.

Go from there, I guess.
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.

If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be 4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.

Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planet

If we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.

This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't get it. Anyways, what's your thoughts on the topic.?

Still don't get it?

My point was, even when it was fresh in everyone's minds, you still misrepresented the Darkseid fight. Then tried to pass one of the key moments of Cyborg off in the same story arc as non-canon.

IOW, you obviously hadn't read the comic. So your thoughts on Darkseid - and by extension, Superman - should be null and void, as you haven't read the comics.

As for this thread, see my posts on Animal Man/She-Hulk/Lobo, IF Kal-Qaeda wish to suddenly have Superman as some abstract story concept.

Did THEIR feats occur, in canon comics, without power-ups? Yes. Do we use them? No.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There is no such thing as a 'herald tier'.

That's not a canon terminology for either company. It's a rough, board ranking term used to guide match making.

There has been no joint-consortium held by DC and Marvel that came to the agreement that such and such should be within the same tiers and thus should be roughly comparable.

It's board members that looked at various feats and came to an understanding that x,y,z seem to be capable of similar things 'on average' and lump them together in a ranking.

Unfortunately, that same 'understanding' is what is used as a yolk to try to keep things competitive. But that is purely subjective, not objective.

Since its impossible to ask that an average be found for every character, as that would require an inordinate amount of time that no one has (and no is without bias), to deny that their is an inequality when there are situations that X's top feats from X company are better than Y's top feats from Y company, even by leaps and bounds is arguing based on feelings, not on facts.

If its not an objective reasoning, its faulty.

Superman's only confirmed designation within his company is that he is etched in stone, as the Ultimate Hero. Bar none. Period. That means he can do anything when it calls for it because he has no set limitation.

Marvel on the other hand, has no such designation for any of their heroes. They don't operate that way. They have no ultimate hero. Thor (for example) would definitely not fit that placement either, because Marvel has made it very clear that he's not at that level of importance. He's a derived character from an old mythology and if he was gone from Marvel forever, they would not lose their identity. They would simply lose a B+ player who could be replaced with someone else (just for comparison, Iron Man and Spidey are A+ players in Marvel), and as of now, he *has* been replaced; by Jane Foster, who upon such a short time as the wielder of Mjolnir, has with such casual matter-of-factness, been designated by Marvel to be superior to Thor (by Thor's own words as well, she is more adept with Mjolnir than he ever was.) That's not an ultimate hero, if you can easily designate a replacement as better than he was, and thus lower the prestige of his decades long legacy.

And thus, Thor's top feats are fewer and of lesser magnitude than Superman's. The excuse that Superman is DC's top guy is exactly why Thor cannot be placed in the same league as him.

To say he is, and deny Superman's far more numerous showings and far superior showings, is simply an appeal to emotion fallacy.

Characterized by statements of the ilk of; "It doesn't feel right to say Thor is so much lower to Superman despite feats that would say so, so I'll ignore those and say they are comparable and it would be a good fight".


That's what Cely and others pack into their arguments. Bunch of empty platitudes and what not. There are no arguments presented to prop Thor(or whoever else of that ilk) up to the levels that Superman shows, so the only method is to try to undercut Superman down.

Whereas if you take a more objective approach and look at the absolute top feats for both, and context and all that, it becomes obvious who the winner is.

Superman and Thor have nothing to do with each other. Because in the end, they are from entirely different companies, and thus have no rule tethering them to be comparable (e.g. The way Thor and Surfer might have that unwritten rule for them by Marvel). It's certain board members that would like to keep them as such. It's a matter of letting feelings for a character get in the way of objective reasoning.

Now, I can almost understand that to an extant, as Marvel and DC have such a long history together that you almost feel like you have to come to that kind of mindset (E.g. that DC's top tiers are comparable to Marvel's top tiers or their street levelers are comparable to each other etc.), but in the end they are unrelated companies who cannot make direct references to each other in their comics without law suits.


So just replace Superman and Thor (or Hulk, or whoever else), with characters from another medium. Let's say we have anime character X from X company. And anime character Y from Y company.

X company and Y company have absolutely nothing to do with each other, and have no history at all. These companies are however, similar in their writing style, their art style, and the scope of stories they display, thus they reach a similar audience.

X character and Y character seem to be comparable, by the bulk of their showings. At their best showings however, they are not comparable at all.

And that's because X is the ultimate hero of X company and thus has superior number of total showings and better and more numerous top showings, than character Y from Y company. (Again; Company X and Company Y write stories of similar scope/scale as a reminder).

Would we deny X's showings over Y, simply because it feels like they should be comparable to you? Of course not. And for the most part, you don't see that happening with other characters in other mediums.

But when it comes to comics, particularly DC/Marvel cross-over topics, 'feelings' like that muddy discussions.

If Supes' top feats are beyond Marvel's designated heavy hitting heroes, then its as simple as that. No need to make it complicated.
Does this post capture the overall feeling of Superman fans? If that's the case should he be bumped up beyond the herald tier for battleboard purposes?

Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.

If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be 4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.

Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planet

If we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.

This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize.
Ask him how he "threw" Warworld into the phantom zone...

Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.

If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be 4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.

Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planet

If we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.

This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize.

More like Abhi's 8 high showings out of 70 relevant 'activity' comics, so ~10%. I guess you may have to lump some of the issues together - for example, the Darkseid fight spanned multiple issues.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Does this post capture the overall feeling of Superman fans? If that's the case should he be bumped up beyond the herald tier for battleboard purposes?

If so, then I argue that I should be allowed to use She-Hulk's 4th wall battle feats, and Animal Man's. Lobo's, too. SBP, it goes without saying, etc etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, post earlier quotes where I gave Surfer 10/10 against Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont understand, if you all think that superman can give surfer a fight, why would wonderwoman give surfer a fight.

Wonderwoman is a thousand time better fighter then superman, just as fast as superman, just as strong as superman, dont have any of his weakness, if at all any weakness.

The only argument that you all are putting up in the superman vs surfer thread is superman strength, whereas wonderwoman has proven to be just as strong.

I think surfer wins this 10/10 and I also think that surfer can beat superman 10/10 but I think that wonderwoman would fair better then supes due to the fact that surfer dont have a weakness to exploit but he has tons to use against clark.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If so, then I argue that I should be allowed to use She-Hulk's 4th wall battle feats, and Animal Man's. Lobo's, too. SBP, it goes without saying, etc etc.
Cheeky bastard..

You Brits still use "cheeky"?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still don't get it?

My point was, even when it was fresh in everyone's minds, you still misrepresented the Darkseid fight. Then tried to pass one of the key moments of Cyborg off in the same story arc as non-canon.

IOW, you obviously hadn't read the comic. So your thoughts on Darkseid - and by extension, Superman - should be null and void, as you haven't read the comics.

As for this thread, see my posts on Animal Man/She-Hulk/Lobo, IF Kal-Qaeda wish to suddenly have Superman as some abstract story concept.

Did THEIR feats occur, in canon comics, without power-ups? Yes. Do we use them? No.

But I did read the story though because I've posted scenes directly from the comic on numerous of occasions. I even posted my comic downloads showing that I own majority of Superman and JLA comics. Doesn't matter. I stick by what I said.

I agree with you. Going by what the Superman fans are using as Superman being above Elite tier, I can easily make a case for Hulk being the most powerful being that has ever walked the planet.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Back in 2008. My opinion of their fight has obviously changed.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Damn 170 appearances? That's more than I thought. Someone like Surfer for example only has like 30 canon appearances in the past 2 years, and that's including books where he appears a few panels or just talks. I'm not shocked that Superman would have more total high showings than him.

If we take abhi's 8 very high end feats at face value and calculate the ratio of high showings vs. comic appearances it would be 4.7 high showings per every 100 comics appearances.

Surfer in the past two years has done stuff like:
- Power the Impericon previously powered by an Eternity level being's heart
- Moon Surfing into Galactus
- Making a transwarp tunnel for 3 billion ships to jump to another part of the universe
- Outracing multiversal destruction
- Resisting Galactus depowering him
- Purifying a planets air and all 6 billion inhabitants body systems
- Absorb and dissipate a massive cosmic storm about to destroy a planet

If we were to calculate an estimate that's a rate of 26.6 per 100 comics, hell even if we cut it in half it'd be 13 per 100 comics or even a quarter it'd be 6.5 per 100 comics.

This is why I used the analogy for homicide rate in Canada vs. Belize.
So just space cheese as a measure of high showings?

And what would transporting a gazillion ships or out running through time is supposed to mean in terms of power?

Or fooling Galactus?

Did he beat any Herald level being? Or a being who stomps other heralds?

That's why I posted half space cheese and half fights against characters.

And Superman didn't appear in 170 comics in two years. Justice League is since 2011. He didn't appear in it between Forever Evil.

Originally posted by carver9
Back in 2008. My opinion of their fight has obviously changed.
That's just a simple Google search.

If I want to dig through your posts, I can easily post several more posts.

Luckily I don't want to go through shit like that.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ask him how he "threw" Warworld into the phantom zone...

By his hands.

Greg Pak confirmed it too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, we can check how many high showings he has in just last two years.

Benched the earth for five days straight.

Threw Brainiac's ship away with J'onn.

Threw Warworld in phantom zone.

Tanked black holes bigger than earth and while weakened flew from the end of the universe to Earth.

Ripped Doomsday apart.

Brought H'el to his knees in two hits.

Beat the shit out of Wraith.

Shattered Phantom Stranger's body.

These are the feats which Heralds do once in a few years.
Benching virtual earth weight was in 2012. By my math that's the last 3 years you put up.

Also you still haven't explained how he "threw" Warworld into the phantom zone.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's just a simple Google search.

If I want to dig through your posts, I can easily post several more posts.

Luckily I don't want to go through shit like that.

Read through the Surfer vs Superman thread. My opinion on their fight obviously changed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By his hands.

Greg Pak confirmed it too.
Scans.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Scans.

Is he talking about this showing?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111142337/3859140-3693687-batman---superman-annual-001-%282014%29-%28digital%29-%28nahga-empire%29-035%5B1%5D.jpg

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Benching virtual earth weight was in 2012. By my math that's the last 3 years you put up.

Also you still haven't explained how he "threw" Warworld into the phantom zone.
http://i.imgur.com/kIxTNOR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fsn9o09.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GvlMsnJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TGxsu9x.png

Batman even says in the last scan that he threw it in the zone.

And Superman 13 was in December 2012. Note that he exceeded that power level later on too.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Cheeky bastard..

You Brits still use "cheeky"?

Always.

Originally posted by abhilegend


And Superman didn't appear in 170 comics in two years. Justice League is since 2011. He didn't appear in it between Forever Evil.

And I'm sure he has more than just the 10 guest appearances I assumed, so swings and roundabouts.

Is 170 appearances bang on correct? No. But it will be in the right ballpark.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Kind of not sure this should stay open, but I'll give it a little while for now.

For me, the answer depends on what version you're using. And by that I don't mean PreCrisis, PostCrisis or New 52. I'm talking about the writer that's writing them.

If Grant Morrison is writing Superman, then the answer to the OP is yes. He literally sees Superman as the guardian of "story", and has more often than not put him well and ahead of any of his supposed "peers".

Now, if it's say, Geoff Johns, then the answer is no. Johns' Superman is STILL the top herald in DC, but he's still a herald by the definitions we use on the board.

I don't think it's a question that can be definitively answered, tbh, unless you're willing to accept that Grant Morrison's portrayal of the character is just as valid as say, James "the hack" Robinson, or Dwayne McDuffie's (who by his own admission nerfed Superman for the purposes of the book).

Superman does straddle the line between herald and trans as much if not more often than the others too, I would argue.

Also, keep manga/anime characters out of this.

This is as correct an answer as you can get on this topic.

Originally posted by carver9
Is he talking about this showing?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111142337/3859140-3693687-batman---superman-annual-001-%282014%29-%28digital%29-%28nahga-empire%29-035%5B1%5D.jpg

You want to argue with Batman? He even says that Superman threw the planet into the Phantom zone in the very first panel?

Originally posted by abhilegend
http://i.imgur.com/kIxTNOR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fsn9o09.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GvlMsnJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TGxsu9x.png

Batman even says in the last scan that he threw it in the zone.

And Superman 13 was in December 2012. Note that he exceeded that power level later on too.
Dude. Warworld was falling towards the earth and then he switched on the phantom zone projector. I can understand if it was ambiguous, but it was flat out clear. Now you post this tidbit with a Superfan harrasing Pak to get him to answer what a fan would like to hear? Ugghh.......

Btw I like how you left out the previous 3 pages that explained hw Warworld was falling towards earth.

Originally posted by abhilegend
http://i.imgur.com/kIxTNOR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fsn9o09.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GvlMsnJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TGxsu9x.png

Batman even says in the last scan that he threw it in the zone.

And Superman 13 was in December 2012. Note that he exceeded that power level later on too.

Batman says that prior to Superman explaining what he did. There's no conclusive proof what actually happened and Pak himself can't even recall it.

He may have literally threw it or not. Nothing is conclusive.

...Batman flat out states he threw it in....

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Dude. Warworld was falling towards the earth and then he switched on the phantom zone projector. I can understand if it was ambiguous, but it was flat out clear. Now you post this tidbit with a Superfan harrasing Pak to get him to answer what a fan would like to hear? Ugghh.......

Btw I like how you left out the previous 3 pages that explained hw Warworld was falling towards earth.

Batman flat out said Superman threw the Warworld in phantom zone in the very next panel. The portal was automated, the pushing was all Superman.

But I knew you would argue just that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...Batman flat out states he threw it in....
Figure of speech.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
Batman says that prior to Superman explaining what he did. There's no conclusive proof what actually happened and Pak himself can't even recall it.

He may have literally threw it or not. Nothing is conclusive.
Superman explained how the portal was opened.

Not that it sucked the world in. The third guy even questions it "he can do that? An entire world" and Supergirl confirms it again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman flat out said Superman threw the Warworld in phantom zone in the very next panel. The portal was automated, the pushing was all Superman.

But I knew you would argue just that.
Wow... This is what I dont get with you. You are basically insulting the intelligence of anyone with a sane mind that read the whole scene. Wow... And then posting a Superfan hounding Pak desperate for crumbs from a scene that was clear cut? It wasnt even ambiguous for crying out loud.

Wow... I mean wow.........

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Figure of speech.

crylaugh

"Did he just destroy that whole"

"No, he threw it in the Phantom zone".

They flat out state it was superman who disposed of the planet and the fortress was just opening the portal.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Wow... This is what I dont get with you. You are basically insulting the intelligence of anyone with a sane mind that read the whole scene. Wow... And then posting a Superfan hounding Pak desperate for crumbs from a scene that was clear cut? It wasnt even ambiguous for crying out loud.

Wow... I mean wow.........

So it's "staff of Unimaginable power somehow did it" all over again?

And you wonder why I laugh at you? Batman saying it isn't enough. The writer confirming it again isn't enough.

Only you are.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...Batman flat out states he threw it in....
"The whole satellite's falling towards Earth!"
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3724971

Falling is bolded in Supergirl's speech.

Originally posted by One-Punch
"The whole satellite's falling towards Earth!"
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3724971

Falling is bolded in Supergirl's speech.
So? He triggered a phantom zone trigger and threw the planet in.

What's so hard to understand about it? Are you so desperate now that clear cut character statements are "figure of speech" now?

http://oi65.tinypic.com/vh51yt.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1054h12.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/zwx8bk.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/v6hl6g.jpg

http://oi63.tinypic.com/30kgeoo.jpg

http://oi63.tinypic.com/n4twf5.jpg


I swear... You constantly have to be corrected. You do know this only makes you look bad.

Where was the portal?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...Batman flat out states he threw it in....

That was in response to whether he destroyed it or not. It's not necessarily literal.

I wouldn't say you're wrong if you think he actually threw it in but it's certainly not conclusive. Especially when Superman comes in and clarifies things.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HFonCXQ8ZIc/Uz3mTnu-zhI/AAAAAAAABFg/8DyJf5T4eTY/s1600/Phantom+Stranger+Superman.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where was the portal?
It's almost like a planetary defense system. Read Clark's statement in the last scan. Big enough threat about to hit earth will be sent to the phantom zone when Clark hits his signal.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
http://oi65.tinypic.com/vh51yt.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1054h12.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/zwx8bk.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/v6hl6g.jpg

http://oi63.tinypic.com/30kgeoo.jpg

http://oi63.tinypic.com/n4twf5.jpg


I swear... You constantly have to be corrected. You do know this only makes you look bad.
So what did you even do except posting pointless scans?

The planet was falling towards earth, Superman triggered a portal and threw it in there.

What scan is contradicting it? Is it "staff" ching again where you whine for some more pages? Originally posted by 80sBaby
That was in response to whether he destroyed it or not. It's not necessarily literal.

I wouldn't say you're wrong if you think he actually threw it in but it's certainly not conclusive. Especially when Superman comes in and clarifies things.
Of course it is literal. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

Superman clarified how the portal was opened. Not that it sucked the planet in. There is not even a mention of it.

Guys, let's try to keep from jizzing scans all over the place. This isn't a feat war, it's a discussion. Or at least it should be.

Originally posted by carver9
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HFonCXQ8ZIc/Uz3mTnu-zhI/AAAAAAAABFg/8DyJf5T4eTY/s1600/Phantom+Stranger+Superman.jpg
According to the comic, he is always surrounded by that psychic energy.

It just made him a focal point for magic. Not amped him anyhow.

Hate to say it but I can see where an argument can be made on Superman pushing the planet. Celey, look at the second scan you posted and the second panel. Superman states "but now the whole satellite is falling towards Earth". Look at his body. He crashes into the planet (remember that part).

Look at the 5th scan 2nd panel. It shows a close up of the planet burning. Look at the large object that's on fire. Looks like it could be Superman pushing against the planet. Don't know because it isn't clear but it does appear to be an object pushing against the planet.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, let's try to keep from jizzing scans all over the place. This isn't a feat war, it's a discussion. Or at least it should be.
Is it a discussion? Even when the characters confirm it and the writer reconfirms it, his feats are still being questioned.

By posting the same scans where the confirmation occurs no less.

Originally posted by One-Punch
"The whole satellite's falling towards Earth!"
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3724971

Falling is bolded in Supergirl's speech.

Actually reading it again, it's actually Superman himself who's saying War World is falling towards Earth. Not Supergirl.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course it is literal. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

Superman clarified how the portal was opened. Not that it sucked the planet in. There is not even a mention of it.



Honestly, if you can't even see how someone could see the scene differently then there's really no point in continuing to talk about it. You've made up your mind and won't even consider anyone else's opinion on it.

But, just for fun, why would he need to say it was sucked in if it was already falling towards the portal/Earth, which we were told? All he'd need to do is open the portal and let it fall in. No pushing or throwing needed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So what did you even do except posting pointless scans?

The planet was falling towards earth, Superman triggered a portal and threw it in there.

What scan is contradicting it? Is it "staff" ching again where you whine for some more pages?
Of course it is literal. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

Superman clarified how the portal was opened. Not that it sucked the planet in. There is not even a mention of it.


Abhi. Warworld was falling towards earth. It looks like it is entering the earth's atmosphere. It suddenly disappears. Now show me where he grabbed the satellite then threw it into the phantom zone.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is it a discussion? Even when the characters confirm it and the writer reconfirms it, his feats are still being questioned.

By posting the same scans where the confirmation occurs no less.



The writer never confirmed it. He specifically said he couldn't remember the scene clearly and was giving a best guess.

As for the character, as I said earlier, that was Batman explaining that Superman didn't destroy Warworld. It's not like Bruce had a clear view of what was happening up there.

Originally posted by carver9
Hate to say it but I can see where an argument can be made on Superman pushing the planet. Celey, look at the second scan you posted and the second panel. Superman states "but now the whole satellite is falling towards Earth". Look at his body. He crashes into the planet (remember that part).

Look at the 5th scan 2nd panel. It shows a close up of the planet burning. Look at the large object that's on fire. Looks like it could be Superman pushing against the planet. Don't know because it isn't clear but it does appear to be an object pushing against the planet.
Good we're getting somewhere. Now how impressive is this so called feat when you push a satellite already hurtling towards your desired target? Get me?

Ha, even Carver can see it.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1054h12.jpg

Second panel, Superman crashes into the planet and is trying to push it.

Where is he when the planet is burning, eh celey?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ha, even Carver can see it.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1054h12.jpg

Second panel, Superman crashes into the planet and is trying to push it.

Where is he when the planet is burning, eh celey?
Read above.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
Honestly, if you can't even see how someone could see the scene differently then there's really no point in continuing to talk about it. You've made up your mind and won't even consider anyone else's opinion on it.

But, just for fun, why would he need to say it was sucked in if it was already falling towards the portal/Earth, which we were told? All he'd need to do is open the portal and let it fall in. No pushing or throwing needed.
Because batman was never contradicted. Superman was talking about opening the portal to phantom zone. Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Abhi. Warworld was falling towards earth. It looks like it is entering the earth's atmosphere. It suddenly disappears. Now show me where he grabbed the satellite then threw it into the phantom zone.
Second panel of the second day. He crashes into the planet and is visibly trying to push it.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Good we're getting somewhere. Now how impressive is this so called feat when you push a satellite already hurtling towards your desired target? Get me?
More impressive as Superman is countering the planet's inertia+earth's gravity?

This is lulzworthy.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Good we're getting somewhere. Now how impressive is this so called feat when you push a satellite already hurtling towards your desired target? Get me?



Now I don't have an answer for that. Pushing an object that is already moving.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Read above.
So you at least conceded that Superman pushed the Warworld in phantom zone.



You wonder why I laugh at you?

Originally posted by carver9


Now I don't have an answer for that. Pushing an object that is already moving.
Push a car going about 100 miles an hour and see how it goes.

Originally posted by abhilegend
According to the comic, he is always surrounded by that psychic energy.

It just made him a focal point for magic. Not amped him anyhow.

I disagree. The world hates him right now except a handful of people. That psychic energy wouldn't exist during this time which makes the ft irrelevant.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you at least conceded that Superman pushed the Warworld in phantom zone.



You wonder why I laugh at you?
I never said otherwise.. Why would I have to concede that point when you always tried to make this "feat" more than it was.

I forgot this.
Originally posted by abhilegend
While on the other hand Superman is fighting and defeating an evil 5-d imp.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576121_2013-03-20_07-29-30_-_Action_Comics_18-004.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576123_2013-03-20_07-29-32_-_Action_Comics_18-005.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576126_2013-03-20_07-29-35_-_Action_Comics_18-006.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576128_2013-03-20_07-29-48_-_Action_Comics_18-011.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576130_2013-03-20_07-29-50_-_Action_Comics_18-012.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576132_2013-03-20_07-30-00_-_Action_Comics_18-016.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576133_2013-03-20_07-30-02_-_Action_Comics_18-017.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576136_2013-03-20_07-30-03_-_Action_Comics_18-018.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15576137_2013-03-20_07-30-05_-_Action_Comics_18-019.jpg

Superman once again took the combined emotions of everyone in the creation. You would like that Dambo.



Fighting a 5-D imp for a whole issue on every plane of existence simultaneously after being poisoned by every form of kryptonite.

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree. The world hates him right now except a handful of people. That psychic energy wouldn't exist during this time which makes the ft irrelevant.
The world hated him at that time too due to his murder of Dr. Light. Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I never said otherwise.. Why would I have to concede that point when you always tried to make this "feat" more than it was.
What? You never said otherwise?

Dude, you're worse than Carver in flip flopping.

So this thread was made to lowball Supermans feats? First, he pushed it in the right spot when it was falling but does anybody doubt that Superman can push Warworld with ease? Someone who benchpressed Earth 5 Days straight without Sunlight, iow while weakening, just to get a drop of sweat?

Got a question for you Celey. So, are we suppose to list the fts of the other characters as well? Or is this primarily about Superman?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is it a discussion? Even when the characters confirm it and the writer reconfirms it, his feats are still being questioned.

By posting the same scans where the confirmation occurs no less.



The scans could be interpreted either way, but what Pak said should at least make people lean towards him pushing it in.

So my original statement stands.

Also, if people can't be civil, this'll end up closed.

Closing soon.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The scans could be interpreted either way, but what Pak said should at least make people lean towards him pushing it in.

So my original statement stands.

Also, if people can't be civil, this'll end up closed.
Ok

Originally posted by carver9
Got a question for you Celey. So, are we suppose to list the fts of the other characters as well? Or is this primarily about Superman?
All showings welcome.

Originally posted by -Pr-
this'll end up closed. Unfortunately this is the only logical outcome of this thread, me thinks.

I wasted that poxy rant, now that I think about it.

I can post at least 3 abstract fts Hulk has had within a 2 to 3 yr period but what's the point? Here is one just for the record...

Hulk also breaks through the castles invulnerable walls when no-one else could: not even BK and he had possession of EXCALIBUR.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636619_Indestructible_Hulk_13_008.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636620_Indestructible_Hulk_13_009.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636621_Indestructible_Hulk_13_010.jpg

Planetary is nice and dandy but insane crap like this is on another level.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I wasted that poxy rant, now that I think about it.

It had moxy.

Originally posted by carver9
I can post at least 3 abstract fts Hulk has had within a 2 to 3 yr period but what's the point? Here is one just for the record...

Hulk also breaks through the castles invulnerable walls when no-one else could: not even BK and he had possession of EXCALIBUR.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636619_Indestructible_Hulk_13_008.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636620_Indestructible_Hulk_13_009.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636621_Indestructible_Hulk_13_010.jpg

Planetary is nice and dandy but insane crap like this is on another level.

That doesn't really have any relevance to the thread, tbh.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It had moxy.

I thought so.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That doesn't really have any relevance to the thread, tbh.



I thought so.

Its about fts, right? Superman pushing War World, Benching Earth weights.

Originally posted by carver9
Its about fts, right? Superman pushing War World, Benching Earth weights.

Everything is about feats with you, isn't it...

Originally posted by carver9
Its about fts, right? Superman pushing War World, Benching Earth weights.

What you posted was an Hulk feat though and not nearly abstract in scope, not even Herald level. Stop before this thread gets closed bro.

Also, I can't see Hulk on the title...he's just not powerful enough to be considered.

Originally posted by carver9
I can post at least 3 abstract fts Hulk has had within a 2 to 3 yr period but what's the point? Here is one just for the record...

Hulk also breaks through the castles invulnerable walls when no-one else could: not even BK and he had possession of EXCALIBUR.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636619_Indestructible_Hulk_13_008.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636620_Indestructible_Hulk_13_009.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16636621_Indestructible_Hulk_13_010.jpg

Planetary is nice and dandy but insane crap like this is on another level.
Excalibur? He had the ebony blade.

And he never used it on the wall. In fact Hulk used the blade later in the comic to cut through time when he himself could not.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Everything is about feats with you, isn't it...

Not entirely. If it's about position then this thread is pointless because no one has Superman position in either Universe, except maybe Captain America and he isn't close to being as powerful but he does do things outside of his weight class. I honestly thought this was about power level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Excalibur? He had the ebony blade.

And he never used it on the wall. In fact Hulk used the blade later in the comic to cut through time when he himself could not.

You knew what I meant.

Wait, he clearly tells us he failed to breach the wall. Why would he use his fist to do this when he has the Ebony Blade in his possession?

Hulk used the Ebony Blade to cut through time. That's different than punching an indestructible wall. You're trying too hard.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, I can't see Hulk on the title...he's just not powerful enough to be considered.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, I can't see Hulk on the title...he's just not powerful enough to be considered.

Carv, post some Surfer/Thor scans.

Also, hurry up with your BZ. I'm anxiously awaiting who I will face after I annihilate LoB.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carv, post some Surfer/Thor scans.

Also, hurry up with your BZ. I'm anxiously awaiting who I will face after I annihilate LoB.

Lol...you don't even believe what you typed. You know Hulk tier/power level just as much as I do.

Scoobs took forever to post inside of our BZ. I know he is going through some things and I truly understand but it's going to take a bit for me to post because I have to adjust things to counter what he posted today.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...you don't even believe what you typed. You know Hulk tier/power level just as much as I do.
Be that as it may, Hulk is not in this thread.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Be that as it may, Hulk is not in this thread.





Celey included him on the first page but since people are against him being in this thread, I'll leave it be.

Originally posted by carver9
You knew what I meant.

Wait, he clearly tells us he failed to breach the wall. Why would he use his fist to do this when he has the Ebony Blade in his possession?

Hulk used the Ebony Blade to cut through time. That's different than punching an indestructible wall. You're trying too hard.
Do I?

And where did he try to use the blade? Black Knight didn't have it at the time he was banished.



Hulk couldn't punch his way out, so he used the blade. That's a direct example.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rdGqePAK5ug/Up3aLFRHSyI/AAAAAAAA45I/NslCKllGBR4/s1600/-013+copy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PEynB7LR0J0/Up3aLhqDV1I/AAAAAAAA45Q/gpQoPshd7gc/s1600/-014+copy.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ChxHPoJlnys/Up3aLyi8vCI/AAAAAAAA45s/LfVVNELz9Gk/s1600/-015+copy.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do I?

And where did he try to use the blade? Black Knight didn't have it at the time he was banished.



Hulk couldn't punch his way out, so he used the blade. That's a direct example.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rdGqePAK5ug/Up3aLFRHSyI/AAAAAAAA45I/NslCKllGBR4/s1600/-013+copy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PEynB7LR0J0/Up3aLhqDV1I/AAAAAAAA45Q/gpQoPshd7gc/s1600/-014+copy.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ChxHPoJlnys/Up3aLyi8vCI/AAAAAAAA45s/LfVVNELz9Gk/s1600/-015+copy.jpg

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16636621/Indestructible_Hulk_13_010.jpg.html

I'm seeing the blade on him. Are you blind? It even mentions in this scan that they said the walls were impenetrable and BK was right there (with the blade in his possession). They tried to breach the wall and failed. You thinking BK kicked at the wall makes you, how can I say it, not so smart. I'm done discussing this topic with you because you're stubborn. Anyways, planetary is good but Hulk fts piss on planetary showings. I can derail this thread with his fts but people don't want him in this thread so again, I'm leaving him out. Anymore comments YOU say in regards to this showing will get ignored bro and of course Hulk can't punch time. Who said he could?

Originally posted by abhilegend
"How can he be more powerful when Surfer beats him in the first Pico second via a kryptonite+red sun blast? Or just drain him?
He's already faster because he flew so fast that one time, more durable because Tenebrous and Aegis and Superman's HV doesn't works on him because he goes through stars. He is also almost as strong. Just wait while he amps to Unilord level and beats even Sundipped superman in h2h. "

10/10 times of course."

/surfer fan


Ask any true surfer fan like JBL or Darthgoober who challenged entire forum to convince him about Superman taking a single win against Surfer.

Nobody argued about that though.



Sigh, i just saw this...Yeah JBL does get a little extreme, but as far as darthgoober goes I'm pretty sure his official stance for years has been that Surfer wins 8-9) out of 10 against Supes. And the reason no one argued is just because no one wanted to debate against darth... he was arguably in a league all his own as a debater ESPECIALLY when it came to Surfer or Captain America(I'm pretty sure he also challenged the whole forum to a Cap vs Spidey debate and no one accepted that either). You should understand that better than anyone, just look at the meltdown he caused in his last battlezone with a single post lol . Not that it's anything to be embarrassed about, that's just how darth rolls.

Goober is the best at BZs.

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh, i just saw this...Yeah JBL does get a little extreme, but as far as darthgoober goes I'm pretty sure his official stance for years has been that Surfer wins 8-9) out of 10 against Supes. And the reason no one argued is just because no one wanted to debate against darth... he was arguably in a league all his own as a debater ESPECIALLY when it came to Surfer or Captain America(I'm pretty sure he also challenged the whole forum to a Cap vs Spidey debate and no one accepted that either). You should understand that better than anyone, just look at the meltdown he caused in his last battlezone with a single post lol . Not that it's anything to be embarrassed about, that's just how darth rolls.

lol

i may throw up a little.... and i'd have taken on that cap/spidey debate without a second's doubt.

Goober was a great debator, yes. Get off his nuts, Carver.

Anyway, get back on topic guys.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Goober was a great debator, yes. Get off his nuts, Carver.

Anyway, get back on topic guys.

Originally posted by carver9
as far as darthgoober goes I'm pretty sure his official stance for years has been that Surfer wins 8-9) out of 10 against Supes. And the reason no one argued is just because no one wanted to debate against darth. The problem in a Surfer/Superman BZ are judges, carver. No matter how unbiased people claim to be, every comic fan has a pronounced opinion on how a battle between those two would play out one way or another--and that would undoubtedly reflect in their verdict to some extent. People can deny this all they want, but it's the truth. On KMC, most people here do tend to favor Surfer going in, so they're already somewhat tainted from the onset. I'd imagine that is what dissuaded those who may have potentially been interested in challenging him. Goober was good, but he wasn't God. srsly


Anyway, because of that preexisting bias(again, it goes both ways), it would be nigh-impossible to get a 100% fair verdict in that match. You'd literally have to get 3-5 people off the street who have never even heard of Superman or Surfer, have them read the BZ, and then give a ruling, in order to get truly unbiased opinions. On a comic forum, however, it's a coin-toss.

Originally posted by Galan007
The problem in a Surfer/Superman BZ are judges, carver. No matter how unbiased people claim to be, every comic fan has a pronounced opinion on how a battle between those two would play out one way or another--and that would undoubtedly reflect in their verdict to some extent. People can deny this all they want, but it's the truth. On KMC, most people here do tend to favor Surfer going in, so they're already somewhat tainted from the onset.

Because of that, it would be nigh-impossible to get a bias-free/100% fair verdict in that match. You'd literally have to get 3-5 people off the street who have never even heard of Superman or Surfer, have them read the BZ, and then give a ruling to get truly unbiased opinions. On a comic forum, however, it's a coin-toss.

I always thought of this and I agree with you 100%.

Superman BROKE Thor in direct combat!

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67965/1410069-superman_knocks_out_thor.jpg

Superman is CLEARLY a tier above Thor!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
More like Abhi's 8 high showings out of 70 relevant 'activity' comics, so ~10%. I guess you may have to lump some of the issues together - for example, the Darkseid fight spanned multiple issues.
I think defining what constitutes as "relevant activity comics" is too subjective and too much work. You'd have to go through all 170 comic appearances and determine which ones you wouldn't count based on whether there's any 'action' going on in them.

And if I were to discount comics where Surfer isn't really doing anything (i.e., 'non-activity' comics by your definition) he goes from 30 comics down to like 10 or 12 because he spends the majority of his comics talking. His rate would jump from 26% to something like 66%--which just isn't accurate IMO.

It's easier if we just count all canon comic appearances regardless of whether there's action or no action going on in the issue for each character (whether it's Supes, Hulk, Thor, Surfer or whoever) so that it's equalized and then compare the rates.

But in terms of sheer total amount of high end feats Superman will always have the most. But we can't ignore the fact that he also has far more appearances than any other herald level character. E.g., using your figure he averages 5.6x more appearances than Surfer annually.

Someone like Surfer for example despite having 40 years of history only averages something like ~15 comic appearances a year, some of these are just flashbacks or one-panel appearances. Superman sometimes has more appearances in 2 weeks than Surfer does in a year lol.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman BROKE Thor in direct combat!

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67965/1410069-superman_knocks_out_thor.jpg

Superman is CLEARLY a tier above Thor!

Stop posting scans.

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree. The world hates him right now except a handful of people. That psychic energy wouldn't exist during this time which makes the ft irrelevant.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The scans could be interpreted either way, but what Pak said should at least make people lean towards him pushing it in.

So my original statement stands.

Also, if people can't be civil, this'll end up closed.
Nooooo please...

It keeps the Ownage thread clean. It's serving a good purpose and is still somewhat a character pitted against character.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Stop posting scans.

WATCH YOUR TONE, UNDERLING!!!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Nooooo please...

It keeps the Ownage thread clean. It's serving a good purpose and is still somewhat a character pitted against character.

If people stick to the discussion, I have no problem keeping it open.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
WATCH YOUR TONE, UNDERLING!!!

You do realise it would take one PM from me and you'd be banned, right?

Originally posted by SquallX


The truth can be funny sometimes.

LoB, hold peace.

This will make your defeat and subsequent eruption of anger all the funnier.

Originally posted by carver9
I always thought of this and I agree with you 100%.

you dirty, 2-timing.... pick a kmc deity to worship at the feet of already.

http://replycandy.com/wp-content/uploads/Mike-Tyson-You-Disgust-Me-Meme.jpg

Originally posted by One-Punch
I think defining what constitutes as "relevant activity comics" is too subjective and too much work. You'd have to go through all 170 comic appearances and determine which ones you wouldn't count based on whether there's any 'action' going on in them.

And if I were to discount comics where Surfer isn't really doing anything (i.e., 'non-activity' comics by your definition) he goes from 30 comics down to like 10 or 12 because he spends the majority of his comics talking. His rate would jump from 26% to something like 66%--which just isn't accurate IMO.

It's easier if we just count all canon comic appearances regardless of whether there's action or no action going on in the issue for each character (whether it's Supes, Hulk, Thor, Surfer or whoever) so that it's equalized and then compare the rates.

But in terms of sheer total amount of high end feats Superman will always have the most. But we can't ignore the fact that he also has far more appearances than any other herald level character. E.g., using your figure he averages 5.6x more appearances than Surfer annually.

Someone like Surfer for example despite having 40 years of history only averages something like ~15 comic appearances a year, some of these are just flashbacks or one-panel appearances. Superman sometimes has more appearances in 2 weeks than Surfer does in a year lol.

It goes both ways. You can't compare a pure number of high-end feats the both of them have because Superman's far greater number of appearances skew the comparison.

At the same time, Surfer's (very) limited number of appearances means that his high end feat rate is also going to be skewed to some degree.

Never mind the fact that there's more to comparing characters than just feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
you dirty, 2-timing.... pick a kmc deity to worship at the feet of already.

http://replycandy.com/wp-content/uploads/Mike-Tyson-You-Disgust-Me-Meme.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
The truth can be funny sometimes.

Go back and read what you wrote, then you might understand why I found it funny.

Originally posted by One-Punch
I think defining what constitutes as "relevant activity comics" is too subjective and too much work. You'd have to go through all 170 comic appearances and determine which ones you wouldn't count based on whether there's any 'action' going on in them.

And if I were to discount comics where Surfer isn't really doing anything (i.e., 'non-activity' comics by your definition) he goes from 30 comics down to like 10 or 12 because he spends the majority of his comics talking. His rate would jump from 26% to something like 66%--which just isn't accurate IMO.

It's easier if we just count all canon comic appearances regardless of whether there's action or no action going on in the issue for each character (whether it's Supes, Hulk, Thor, Surfer or whoever) so that it's equalized and then compare the rates.

But in terms of sheer total amount of high end feats Superman will always have the most. But we can't ignore the fact that he also has far more appearances than any other herald level character. E.g., using your figure he averages 5.6x more appearances than Surfer annually.

Someone like Surfer for example despite having 40 years of history only averages something like ~15 comic appearances a year, some of these are just flashbacks or one-panel appearances. Superman sometimes has more appearances in 2 weeks than Surfer does in a year lol.
The number of high showings don't matter, the quality of it matters.

For example you could add all of Surfer's high showings you listed into one and it would still fall short of Superman fighting a 5-D imp for a whole issue on every plane of existence while suffering from kryptonite of every variety.

Heck, he survived attacks from Multitude that killed a 5-D imp. He channeled enough energy through himself to destroy the same weapon AND burn out Vyndktvx arm. All of these happened back to back.

For all his space cheese, Surfer failed to have any effect on Galactus at all. He was helpless against Nightmare. Heck, he was helpless against Warrior One.

Originally posted by carver9
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16636621/Indestructible_Hulk_13_010.jpg.html

I'm seeing the blade on him. Are you blind? It even mentions in this scan that they said the walls were impenetrable and BK was right there (with the blade in his possession). They tried to breach the wall and failed. You thinking BK kicked at the wall makes you, how can I say it, not so smart. I'm done discussing this topic with you because you're stubborn. Anyways, planetary is good but Hulk fts piss on planetary showings. I can derail this thread with his fts but people don't want him in this thread so again, I'm leaving him out. Anymore comments YOU say in regards to this showing will get ignored bro and of course Hulk can't punch time. Who said he could?

So you have nothing which shows ebony blade failing to cut the wall?

Good. Originally posted by carver9
Sigh, i just saw this...Yeah JBL does get a little extreme, but as far as darthgoober goes I'm pretty sure his official stance for years has been that Surfer wins 8-9) out of 10 against Supes. And the reason no one argued is just because no one wanted to debate against darth... he was arguably in a league all his own as a debater ESPECIALLY when it came to Surfer or Captain America(I'm pretty sure he also challenged the whole forum to a Cap vs Spidey debate and no one accepted that either). You should understand that better than anyone, just look at the meltdown he caused in his last battlezone with a single post lol . Not that it's anything to be embarrassed about, that's just how darth rolls.
Haha, meltdown? He was flat out trolling with appeals to judges to ignore my arguments. But of course you give him the hand jobs.

If that was the greatest debater here, I pity this site.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you have nothing which shows ebony blade failing to cut the wall?

Good.
Haha, meltdown? He was flat out trolling with appeals to judges to ignore my arguments. But of course you give him the hand jobs.

If that was the greatest debater here, I pity this site.


You're right. Black Knight punched and kicked the wall. He never decided to pull out his greatest weapon to get into a building that he said he failed at getting into.

Originally posted by carver9
You're right. Black Knight punched and kicked the wall. He never decided to pull out his greatest weapon to get into a building that he said he failed at getting into.
Sure.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i may throw up a little.... and i'd have taken on that cap/spidey debate without a second's doubt. Seconded.

What makes Superman so powerful is his ridiculous strength, hv, and ridiculous speed combination. These 3 powers, which are on crazy levels, make Superman the most formidable Herald.

Surfer has the better versatility. But on average his blasts don't do much against Herald level characters. I could be wrong but it seems that Superman's hv is very potent against all heralds. I don't recall seeing a Herald no sell it.

Surfer has combat speed (not quite on Superman's level though in close quarters) , but not the physical strength when the fight becomes close range. He would get dominated by both Thor and Superman in close physical fights.

Thor has versatility too and is somewhat stronger than Surfer but he lacks speed of of other two.

In conclusion, I believe that superior speed and physicality could beat the versatility edge any day of the week and this is what allows Superman to straddle the Trans level more often than others.

As a literary figure, and superhero archetype, Superman does indeed hold a special place in the genre. The Thought Robot concept highlighted this (who else would get such Always-Saves-The-Day regard?). Plus (as someone once perceptively pointed out), because DC doesn't have the detailed cosmic/abstract hierarchy of Marvel, Superman -- along with his fellow Justice Leaguers -- has often had to function in an above-herald capacity for the story to go on. But, like other heroes, Superman has also had his share of less impressive showings.

Bottom line: comics are a business; over time multiple writers handle the same character differently; and stories are fashioned to maximize sales. Thus the inconsistency of character power levels, and why Versus threads generate such varied and intriguing interpretations of who would beat who.

Ergo, I go with averages. And as has been said before, by others, I regard Superman, Thor and Surfer as more/less equals with differing strength/weakness profiles.

Originally posted by Mindship
As a literary figure, and superhero archetype, Superman does indeed hold a special place in the genre. The Thought Robot concept highlighted this (who else would get such Always-Saves-The-Day regard?). Plus (as someone once perceptively pointed out), because DC doesn't have the detailed cosmic/abstract hierarchy of Marvel, Superman -- along with his fellow Justice Leaguers -- has often had to function in an above-herald capacity for the story to go on. But, like other heroes, Superman has also had his share of less impressive showings.

Bottom line: comics are a business; over time multiple writers handle the same character differently; and stories are fashioned to maximize sales. Thus the inconsistency of character power levels, and why Versus threads generate such varied and intriguing interpretations of who would beat who.

Ergo, I go with averages. And as has been said before, by others, I regard Superman, Thor and Surfer as more/less equals with differing strength/weakness profiles.

Imo, one who is vastly slower than another can never be a peer to them UNLESS the slower has significantly higher durability, or enough to take some hits without being affected much. Surfer and Thor could be peers to Superman provided that they are able to fight and operate at the speeds Superman can in close quarters.
Otherwise, it would always be non competitive if you think about it.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't think anyone said Surfer beats Superman 10/10.

Why did you feed the troll when the sign is clearly posted??

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Benching virtual earth weight was in 2012. By my math that's the last 3 years you put up.

Also you still haven't explained how he "threw" Warworld into the phantom zone.

LOL, knew he was going to cheat!

Originally posted by One-Punch
"The whole satellite's falling towards Earth!"
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3724971

Falling is bolded in Supergirl's speech.

So in other words, she "flat out said it?" Good, that's all I needed to hear.

Originally posted by carver9


Now I don't have an answer for that. Pushing an object that is already moving.

I think that would be guiding it.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I never said otherwise.. Why would I have to concede that point when you always tried to make this "feat" more than it was.

Because that's what he always does. Don't forget how he survived an energy drain by Sun Eater...only he didn't drain Superman, Superman willingly expended his own energy through his heat vision. That's how twisted abby is.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
From Wiki

Dude...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Be that as it may, Hulk is not in this thread.





Actually, Hulk IS in the thread as he was introduced pages ago.

Hulk is Hulk, he enters any thread he pleases.

Originally posted by h1a8
Imo, one who is vastly slower than another can never be a peer to them UNLESS the slower has significantly higher durability, or enough to take some hits without being affected much. Surfer and Thor could be peers to Superman provided that they are able to fight and operate at the speeds Superman can in close quarters.
Otherwise, it would always be non competitive if you think about it.

h1, there is a reason why you are being ignored by everyone. Think about it.