Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Match
Set
Go!

Chester. Cassandra never struck me as anything impressive.

I thought she was on the level of Xavier when it came to telepathy? Though I still think Black could fend her off long enough to kill her with his TK.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Chester. Cassandra never struck me as anything impressive. http://i.imgur.com/kK69EfM.gif

Originally posted by Surtur
I thought she was on the level of Xavier when it came to telepathy? Though I still think Black could fend her off long enough to kill her with his TK. She was easily stronger than Xavier.

What did she do that was due to her power?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What did she do that was due to her power? Everything she did was due to her power, wtf are you talking about?

Originally posted by Mindset
Everything she did was due to her power, wtf are you talking about?

She took control of Xavier due to her special psychic connection, not because she overpowered him:

http://postimg.org/image/kupwe48b7/

In her words, it took no effort.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She took control of Xavier due to her special psychic connection, not because she overpowered him:

http://postimg.org/image/kupwe48b7/

In her words, it took no effort. Ok, that has nothing to do with a tp fight between the two though.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-14.jpg

Originally posted by Mindset
Ok, that has nothing to do with a tp fight between the two though.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-14.jpg

At what point had she taken over his mind, though?

From earlier in the comic, when she was in Ecuador, she had already taken him over, when he was using Cerebra (in her words, it actually opened Chuck's mind up to her, and led her STRAIGHT to him). She's already controlling him:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-114-EisforExtinction01-17.jpg

Then if you look at the battle itself - Chuck doesn't actually do anything in the battle.

Jean tries going in, he tells her to stay back...then he doesn't actually do anything. He SAYS he's going to try and shut her down, but we never see it. Whether that's because he gets TKed out of his wheelchair, or it was all a show for the other X-men, we don't know.

Jean then gets KOed and starts foaming at the mouth. But then, she may have been weakened.

They never actually have a battle.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
At what point had she taken over his mind, though?

From earlier in the comic, when she was in Ecuador, she had already taken him over, when he was using Cerebra (in her words, it actually opened Chuck's mind up to her, and led her STRAIGHT to him):

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-114-EisforExtinction01-17.jpg

Then if you look at the battle itself - Chuck doesn't actually do anything in the battle.

Jean tries going in, he tells her to stay back...then he doesn't actually do anything. He SAYS he's going to try and shut her down, but we never see it. Whether that's because he gets TKed out of his wheelchair, or it was all a show for the other X-men, we don't know.

Jean then gets KOed and starts foaming at the mouth. But then, she may have been weakened.

They never actually have a battle. He was trying to shut down her motor functions, it's what he said in the scan. He is actively trying to do it as he's talking...

Jean gets ko'd from tp, not tk.

Both Charles and Jean are trying to attack her mind and can't.

If Charles could match her in a tp battle he would have stopped her from reaching cerebra instead of screaming about it like a *****.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-17.jpg

But that's the thing...none of Chucks' actions can be trusted. We don't know at what point she started mind controlling him....but from their very first encounter (when she was in Ecuador) she was already telling him to shut up and stopping him from thinking coherent thoughts.

And never said Jean was taken out by TK? Only that she may have been weakened.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that's the thing...none of Chucks' actions can be trusted. We don't know at what point she started mind controlling him....but from their very first encounter (when she was in Ecuador) she was already telling him to shut up and stopping him from thinking coherent thoughts.

And never said Jean was taken out by TK? Only that she may have been weakened. But that's not the thing, there's no proof his actions can't be trusted.

Yea, weakened by Nova raping her with tp.

Nova > Xavier and Jean.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
From earlier in the comic, when she was in Ecuador, she had already taken him over, when he was using Cerebra (in her words, it actually opened Chuck's mind up to her, and led her STRAIGHT to him). She's already controlling him:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-114-EisforExtinction01-17.jpg Cerebra still amped Chuck's psychic senses to the tenth power. So even though Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck's mind, it doesn't change the fact that he was still MASSIVELY amped when she mindphucked him initially.

Connection or not, that's impressive.

Originally posted by Mindset
He was trying to shut down her motor functions, it's what he said in the scan. He is actively trying to do it as he's talking...

Jean gets ko'd from tp, not tk.

Both Charles and Jean are trying to attack her mind and can't.

If Charles could match her in a tp battle he would have stopped her from reaching cerebra instead of screaming about it like a *****.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Scans/NewX-Men-116-EisforExtinction03-17.jpg

Mindset is actually debating? I think this is in the Bible about the Apocalypse coming.

Nova had already effortlessly controlled Chuck earlier, not due to her power, but due to the unique psychic connection they share.

Xavier doesn't actually do anything in the fight except tell Jean to get back.

Jean was already infected by nano Sentinels, weakening her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nova had already effortlessly controlled Chuck earlier, not due to her power, but due to the unique psychic connection they share.

Xavier doesn't actually do anything in the fight except tell Jean to get back.

Jean was already infected by nano Sentinels, weakening her. Xavier doesn't do anything in the fight except enter Nova's mind and try to shut down her motor functions to no avail.

Jean was infected by Nova's tp turning her brain inside out.

Nova > Jean and Chuck

He says he is going to - but we can't know for certain.

Jean was infected by Sentinels from Ecuador (which is what Nova was doing in the first place):
http://postimg.org/image/hjncd69sj/

Scott just dismisses her:
http://postimg.org/image/5ecc3u3o3/

Beast attempts to resist her, and when her attention wavers for a split second due to Beak, Beast breaks free:
http://postimg.org/image/ieo309q8j/

Then Beast/Wolverine flat out resist her, due to being animalistic:
http://postimg.org/image/g9ei155hv/

That does NOT sound like being > 10x Xavier.

We know for certain that you have no proof that he wasn't attacking her.

Originally posted by Mindset
We know for certain that you have no proof that he wasn't attacking her.

And you have none to say he was doing what you say he was. He merely says he thinks he can shut her down from...and she TKs everything.

Edit: yet she's unable to mindcontrol Beast when Beak interrupts them, is unable to stop Cyclops from ending the storyline there and then on the Shi Ar ship, needs to weaken the X-men with Sentinels, and is unable to mind control Wolverine and Beast when they go savage.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And you have none to say he was doing what you say he was. He merely says he thinks he can shut her down from...and she TKs everything.

Edit: yet she's unable to mindcontrol Beast when Beak interrupts them, is unable to stop Cyclops from ending the storyline there and then on the Shi Ar ship, needs to weaken the X-men with Sentinels, and is unable to mind control Wolverine and Beast when they go savage. Except for the comic having him say he was, that's all the proof I need.

He is trying to shut her down and can't, then she just flings him away like trash with her tk.

If you want to say he's not actually attacking her, you have to show proof of that; the onus is on you, bud.

Originally posted by Mindset
Except for the comic having him say he was, that's all the proof I need.

He is trying to shut her down and can't, then she just flings him away like trash with her tk.

If you want to say he's not actually attacking her, you have to show proof of that; the onus is on you, bud.

Comic merely says he thinks he can, then she flings him away. Nothing in the comic says he's actually doing it. If you say he is, then YOU have to prove it, not me.

All the comic says, is that he thinks he can.

Yea, he thinks he can and he can't, because she's too strong. Yea, he's actually trying to do it, he can't.

Nova > Xavier

I have some assignments to turn in by 8, I'll let you pm me a concession to preserve your dignity.

That's ok, my fiancee is in bed wondering why I'm so invested in comic book spats with strange men.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's ok, my fiancee is in bed wondering why I'm so invested in comic book spats with strange men.

no im not.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cerebra still amped Chuck's psychic senses to the tenth power. So even though Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck's mind, it doesn't change the fact that he was still MASSIVELY amped when she mindphucked him initially.

Connection or not, that's impressive.





Cassandra gets the majority.

.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He says he is going to - but we can't know for certain.

Jean was infected by Sentinels from Ecuador (which is what Nova was doing in the first place):
http://postimg.org/image/hjncd69sj/

Scott just dismisses her:
http://postimg.org/image/5ecc3u3o3/

Beast attempts to resist her, and when her attention wavers for a split second due to Beak, Beast breaks free:
http://postimg.org/image/ieo309q8j/

Then Beast/Wolverine flat out resist her, due to being animalistic:
http://postimg.org/image/g9ei155hv/

That does NOT sound like being > 10x Xavier. Cassandra mindphucked pretty much the entire X-Men roster in AXM--had Wolverine making origami cutouts and crawling up trees, ffs.

...And she wasn't even at full power during that arc.

She did a Number on the Shi'Ar empire. Had Gladiator shit or piss on himself.

Originally posted by "Id"
Had Gladiator shit or piss on himself.
http://i.imgur.com/T0mYUc5.jpg

A piece of carver died in that scene.

Black mind phucked with Superman pretty casually, and he has a really good history against tp. Some examples:

1. Brainiac in his "Milton Fine" days was so powerful, he could reach across space from Colu and take possession of psi alien DoubleX on Earth.

Despite this level of power, Superman managed to block him from his thoughts and secrets.

2. Martian Manhunter was unable to locate Superman when he assumed his Clark Kent persona, due to Superman subconsciously blocking all tp invasions to protect his identity. (Under the same writer, he sifted through every mind on Earth for a specific piece of info, which took him about ten seconds..

3. Dreadnaut and Psi Phon simulated power stealing, via Psi Phon shutting a power off, and Dreadnaut copying the power. This even worked on Martian Manhunter and Captain Marvels magic based powers.

Once Supes knew their trick, he was able to concentrate and shield his mind.


There's more examples, but the point is Black went through Supermans defenses like they weren't even there, and made him see whatever he wanted him to see, learn all of his secrets, as he also controlled villains to attack him (Even reversing Bizarro's Bizarroness, so he talked and thought normally.)

Who's harder to mind mess with, Superman or Xavier?

Originally posted by carver9
Who's harder to mind mess with, Superman or Xavier?

Milton Fine Brainiac switched bodies with Doomsday, and reached across dimensions from New Genesis to make everyone on Earth believe Supermans body was still in his tomb. THIS is the guy Superman has in his rogues gallery of telepaths.

And he's not the one who invaded his mind and learned who his loved ones were, before making him watch one die in front of him. Brainiac tried, many times, to get that info, but failed.

Still she plunged the entire empire into chaos. A culture known for having advance psi defenses.

Chester wins. Reprogramming Bizarro and Doomsday >>beating Xavier.

Originally posted by "Id"
Still she plunged the entire empire into chaos. A culture known for having advance psi defenses.
Black controlled hundreds of villains across universes.

Manchester puts her in a coma.

At the end she was defeated by getting placed in a simple, synthetic brain.

And in Astonishing X Men, it was Emma who was doing all that stuff on X men on post hypnotic suggestions from Nova.

Originally posted by "Id"
She did a Number on the Shi'Ar empire. Had Gladiator shit or piss on himself. Gladiator and the Shi'Ar also activated their psi defenses immediately prior to that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He says he is going to - but we can't know for certain.

Jean was infected by Sentinels from Ecuador (which is what Nova was doing in the first place):
http://postimg.org/image/hjncd69sj/

Scott just dismisses her:
http://postimg.org/image/5ecc3u3o3/

Beast attempts to resist her, and when her attention wavers for a split second due to Beak, Beast breaks free:
http://postimg.org/image/ieo309q8j/

Then Beast/Wolverine flat out resist her, due to being animalistic:
http://postimg.org/image/g9ei155hv/

That does NOT sound like being > 10x Xavier. Lol, you're going to claim that Xavier wasn't actively engaged in a psi fight that he says he's engaged in, and then claim that multiple instances of Cassandra Nova taunting people are all actually her failing to use telepathy?

Double standards are fun, I guess.

Lol, Nova in the tournament wasn't as controversial in combat as she should have been. Oh, LoB

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Lol, Nova in the tournament wasn't as controversial in combat as she should have been. Oh, LoB That's a shame because Cassandra has the potential to be a game-changer by herself.

Most definitely. I was biting my tongue every time he posted or didn't post about her

Originally posted by Smurph
Lol, you're going to claim that Xavier wasn't actively engaged in a psi fight that he says he's engaged in, and then claim that multiple instances of Cassandra Nova taunting people are all actually her failing to use telepathy?

Double standards are fun, I guess.
Weaker telepaths have beaten stronger telepaths due to connections in the mind.

Like sinister vs nate grey. Xavier kicked her out while she was wearing cerebra as well while his mind was scattered across every mutant on earth.

So Nova>Xavier>Nova?

Originally posted by Smurph
Gladiator and the Shi'Ar also activated their psi defenses immediately prior to that.
The same defenses which get broken by every damn telepath ever?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Weaker telepaths have beaten stronger telepaths due to connections in the mind.

Like sinister vs nate grey. Xavier kicked her out while she was wearing cerebra as well while his mind was scattered across every mutant on earth.

So Nova>Xavier>Nova? Xavier sucker punched Nova. It was a planned surprise attack.

She, in contrast, went head to head with him in direct confrontation while he wore Cerebra, and won.

The mental connection was a plot tool to explain that she and Xavier had the same DNA, and why she wore his body like a glove.

Honestly, even with willful blindness to Cassandra dominating Xavier on panel, I think she still beats Manchester.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The same defenses which get broken by every damn telepath ever? Lowballing, hyperbole, etc.

Cassandra stomps trivially.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cassandra mindphucked pretty much the entire X-Men roster in AXM--had Wolverine making origami cutouts and crawling up trees, ffs.

...And she wasn't even at full power during that arc.

That was Emma. Nova was explicitly unable to mindphuck Wolverine and Beast when they went feral - but in AXM, Emma was able to.

Originally posted by "Id"
She did a Number on the Shi'Ar empire. Had Gladiator shit or piss on himself.

She initially tricked the Shi-Ar empire - confirmed by Gladiator. Never mind-controlled them. Once they realised they were batting for the same side, the Guardians all switched to fight by the X-men's side. They just blindly followed Lilandra's orders without question:
http://postimg.org/image/5f8czdbwz/

More proof of their blind obedience. Note how others are able to see through Nova's lies, and are killed:
http://postimg.org/image/daiwe6ljn/

Mind-armour? The Stepfords tore it apart, and took Oracle, a TP Guardian, down:
http://postimg.org/image/wec7uiydv/

Jean, whilst dying, was already testing it:
http://postimg.org/image/5f8czdbwz/

High showing for the Cuckoos? Sure. But in that arc, what feats do their mind-armour have?

Originally posted by Smurph
Lol, you're going to claim that Xavier wasn't actively engaged in a psi fight that he says he's engaged in, and then claim that multiple instances of Cassandra Nova taunting people are all actually her failing to use telepathy?

Double standards are fun, I guess.

Charles was already compromised, not to mention he was attacked mid-sentence in that scene with Nova. So, suckerpunch?

As for taunting? Beast could have killed her at the start, Nova confirms he doesn't do so because he doesn't want to hurt the Prof:
http://postimg.org/image/crwbgjd3n/

Cyclops didn't kill himself, and could've stopped her:
http://postimg.org/image/5ecc3u3o3/
http://postimg.org/image/ua5rrbqc3/

Wolverine and Beast could've stopped her, so she needed to use the students to stop them once she realised Logan, unlike the others, would actually go as far as to kill Chuck:
http://postimg.org/image/g9ei155hv/

I NEVER said she was failing to use TP. I'm saying she was, and she was straight up being resisted - you can see the TP thought bubbles around Cyclops (who just ignores her), and around Beast//Logan.

Originally posted by Smurph
Xavier sucker punched Nova. It was a planned surprise attack.

She, in contrast, went head to head with him in direct confrontation while he wore Cerebra, and won.

The mental connection was a plot tool to explain that she and Xavier had the same DNA, and why she wore his body like a glove.

Honestly, even with willful blindness to Cassandra dominating Xavier on panel, I think she still beats Manchester.

And Nova sucker punched Xavier when she effortlessly took control of his mind in Ecuador, following the wide open trail left by Cerebra and using the special connection they share:
http://postimg.org/image/vb60gg7bn/
http://postimg.org/image/kupwe48b7/

But yeah, apparently THIS sucker punch doesn't count. Look how nonchalant Xavier is, whistling his happy little tune....

Originally posted by Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/T0mYUc5.jpg


I accept this wholeheartedly, without argument.

Originally posted by carver9


Cassandra gets the majority.

Hush. Adults are talking.

Originally posted by Smurph
Xavier sucker punched Nova. It was a planned surprise attack.

She, in contrast, went head to head with him in direct confrontation while he wore Cerebra, and won.

The mental connection was a plot tool to explain that she and Xavier had the same DNA, and why she wore his body like a glove.

Honestly, even with willful blindness to Cassandra dominating Xavier on panel, I think she still beats Manchester.
You mean the time he was scattered across billions of minds and still mindraped her while she was wearing Cerebra? Now we are talking about suckershot, eh?

She is his identical twin with all his powers. It makes no sense for her to be several magnitudes powerful than him and that's nowhere stated.

And mental connection wasn't a tool to explain everything. It was a byproduct of her being his identical twin.

And no, it doesn't. Manchester has the most ridiculous showings for any telepath who was around so short a time. Nova can't even deal with Beast and Logan's animalistic minds.

Chester effortlessly reprogrammed both Doomsday and Bizarro. Originally posted by Smurph
Lowballing, hyperbole, etc.
Is that so? Name one decent telepath the psi dampers have stopped?

Great discussion

I think their connection is the reason why Nova could usurp Charles' body after his defeat, not why she was able to overpower him. Since it's a connection, it would have to be a two way thing and something that Charles would be able to take advantage of if had any bearing on a straight up battle.

At any rate, the incident that Nova is referring to when talking to Beast happened AFTER she was captured. It should have no bearing on the trouncing Xavier suffered prior to that. I see how it's a convincing argument for why she was able to actually hijack his body, but not how it's the cause of her earlier victory.

I can go back to find the scans, but wasn't her nose bleeding from concentration when she overpowered Cerebra Xavier?

That battle wasn't effortless for her, it was a direct head-to-head domination.

Simultaneously beating Xavier, Jean, and Scott down did seem effortless, but then, there was no Cerebra involved. Originally posted by abhilegend
She is his identical twin with all his powers. It makes no sense for her to be several magnitudes powerful than him and that's nowhere stated. She is a Mummudrai that built a body using his DNA and got access to his full potential.

She's literally a psychic being using unlocked Xavier genes.

Off the top of my head, Gladiator forced Rachel Summers out of his mind.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Lol, Nova in the tournament wasn't as controversial in combat as she should have been. Oh, LoB

Imagine someone getting away with Cassandra Nova + DoS Doomsday in the Low Herald tournament?

Just Evil.

I think it was ruled that Doomsday couldn't be used.

Right Cassandra Nova is an amplified Xavier, due to the nature of the Mummandrai unlocking mutant genome to its maximum.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That was Emma. You're right. Cassandra was just the tempter--she planted all the seeds within Emma's subconscious. The other TP feats were Emma's, though.

Regardless, it was still made clear that Cassandra>>Emma in that arc:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681545_Astonishing-X-Men-13-pg-002.jpg

Originally posted by Smurph
I can go back to find the scans, but wasn't her nose bleeding from concentration when she overpowered Cerebra Xavier? Yes. Here is the scene:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681546_New_X-Men_v1_114-015.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681547_New_X-Men_v1_114-016.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681548_New_X-Men_v1_114-017.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681549_New_X-Men_v1_114-018.jpg


And again, Cerebra amped Chuck's psychic senses to the tenth power:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681550_New_X-Men_v1_114-005.jpg

Originally posted by Smurph
I can go back to find the scans, but wasn't her nose bleeding from concentration when she overpowered Cerebra Xavier?

That battle wasn't effortless for her, it was a direct head-to-head domination.

Simultaneously beating Xavier, Jean, and Scott down did seem effortless, but then, there was no Cerebra involved.

What?



Yes, who is equal to him in power. Not above him by 10th power.

He kicked her out of his body while scattered across billions of mutants.

Much better than using a connection to basically suckershot him.

Not due to psi damper. Rachel is useless anyway.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're right. Cassandra was just the tempter--she planted all the seeds within Emma's subconscious. The other TP feats were Emma's, though.

Regardless, it was still made clear that Cassandra>>Emma in that arc:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681545_Astonishing-X-Men-13-pg-002.jpg

Yes. Here is the scene:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681546_New_X-Men_v1_114-015.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681547_New_X-Men_v1_114-016.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681548_New_X-Men_v1_114-017.jpg http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681549_New_X-Men_v1_114-018.jpg


And again, Cerebra amped Chuck's psychic senses to the tenth power:
http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t/24681550_New_X-Men_v1_114-005.jpg
Cerebra was useless in that scene for him as she used it as a backdoor to basically suckershot him.

There is no indication he was using it to amp himself up to 10th power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cerebra was useless in that scene for him as she used it as a backdoor to basically suckershot him.

There is no indication he was using it to amp himself up to 10th power. Cassandra using Cerebra to locate Chuck doesn't change its fundamental purpose--it amps its wearer's psychic senses to the tenth power.

To say that Cerebra wasn't doing what it was built to do in that scene is... Baseless, to say the least. srsly

Originally posted by krisblaze
Great discussion

I think their connection is the reason why Nova could usurp Charles' body after his defeat, not why she was able to overpower him. Since it's a connection, it would have to be a two way thing and something that Charles would be able to take advantage of if had any bearing on a straight up battle.

At any rate, the incident that Nova is referring to when talking to Beast happened AFTER she was captured. It should have no bearing on the trouncing Xavier suffered prior to that. I see how it's a convincing argument for why she was able to actually hijack his body, but not how it's the cause of her earlier victory.

Yes, this is actually quite a civilised discourse, am pleased

So when did she take over Xavier's mind? At what point can one say 'oh, these were the actions of Nova, and these were the actions of Xavier'?

You say that it had no bearing on the trouncing - can you be 100% sure he was 100% Xavier in that encounter?

Originally posted by Smurph
I can go back to find the scans, but wasn't her nose bleeding from concentration when she overpowered Cerebra Xavier?

That battle wasn't effortless for her, it was a direct head-to-head domination.

Simultaneously beating Xavier, Jean, and Scott down did seem effortless, but then, there was no Cerebra involved. She is a Mummudrai that built a body using his DNA and got access to his full potential.


She was simultaneously controlling her puppet soldiers, whilst conversing with Trask, whilst taking Xavier over. That's no knock on her; it WAS Xavier,a fter all, that she was taking over.

She TK'ed Xavier and KOed him; Jean and Scott were already infected by nano Sentinels; so hardly the great victory.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're right. Cassandra was just the tempter--she planted all the seeds within Emma's subconscious. The other TP feats were Emma's, though.

Regardless, it was still made clear that Cassandra>>Emma in that arc:


Agreed. Cassandra > Emma. Never doubted that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cassandra using Cerebra to locate Chuck doesn't change its fundamental purpose--it amps its wearer's psychic senses to the tenth power.

To say that Cerebra wasn't doing what it was built to do in that scene is... Baseless, to say the least. srsly



It amps his senses. Giving him global sensory reach.

Did it amp his TP defences?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


It amps his senses. Giving him global sensory reach.

Did it amp his TP defences? Cerebra amps the mind across the board(Cassandra literally called it a "mind amplifier".) It doesn't just boost its wearer's psychic senses--it boosts their overall psychic power as well:
http://i.imgur.com/Lcc4uLj.jpg

Do I think Cerebra would therefore boost its wearer's psychic defenses? Absolutely.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What?



Yes, who is equal to him in power. Not above him by 10th power.

He kicked her out of his body while scattered across billions of mutants.

Much better than using a connection to basically suckershot him.

Not due to psi damper. Rachel is useless anyway. Originally posted by Smurph
Lowballing, hyperbole, etc.

Where are you getting cerebra just enhances physic senses, DS?

That'd be pretty useless.

Reposting, cuz Smurph (sly)...

Originally posted by Galan007
Cerebra amps the mind across the board(Cassandra literally called it a "mind amplifier".) It doesn't just boost its wearer's psychic senses--it boosts their overall psychic power as well:
http://i.imgur.com/Lcc4uLj.jpg

Do I think Cerebra would therefore boost its wearer's psychic defenses? Absolutely.

This Smurph guy really grinds my gears.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cerebra amps the mind across the board(Cassandra literally called it a "mind amplifier".) It doesn't just boost its wearer's psychic senses--it boosts their overall psychic power as well:
http://i.imgur.com/Lcc4uLj.jpg

Do I think Cerebra would therefore boost its wearer's psychic defenses? Absolutely.

See, here's what I (IMHO, obviously) believe:

Xavier wasn't in control there.

He/She was making out Nova to be the massive big bad - so that in a last minute maneuver, he had no choice but to shoot Nova in the head.

The X-men will now feel safe. The Big Bad is gone.

Chuck Nova is now free to wreak havoc.

Although, again, I still don't see how it amping his defences 10x (good catch there, btw) negates her connection?

She used a backdoor that no one else knew about, and suckerpunched Xavier when he least expected it (mid-whistle). Yes, Cerebra amps defences (you've convinced me), but it still does not take away the point that she was NOT overpowering his defences. Like attacking his weak points, rather than crushing his defences.

That was only in the limited edition version.

Originally posted by Mindset
Where are you getting cerebra just enhances physic senses, DS?

That'd be pretty useless.

Not if it was a sensory device, built to give Xavier global range:

http://postimg.org/image/8qknm8v4j/

Everything that happened in that issue, was the doing of Nova pulling the strings.

They see a flare in Ecuador, Xavier suggests to Henry that he diverts Logan/Cyke there.

They find Nova, and bring her back to their home (after she's managed to get the nano Sentinels).

Once at their home base, she infects them all, to weaken them.

She manages to 'die', and take Xavier's place. Starts outing them to the world, weakening them further etc.

She was pulling the strings for a long while to get her plans in motion. As a prep goddess, she was pretty damn good:
http://postimg.org/image/y5vpurnyr/

Global range for what purpose? It'd just be a glorified telescope.

Originally posted by Galan007
Reposting, cuz Smurph (sly)... Originally posted by Mindset
This Smurph guy really grinds my gears. smurph

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See, here's what I (IMHO, obviously) believe:

Xavier wasn't in control there.

He/She was making out Nova to be the massive big bad - so that in a last minute maneuver, he had no choice but to shoot Nova in the head.

The X-men will now feel safe. The Big Bad is gone.

Chuck Nova is now free to wreak havoc.

Although, again, I still don't see how it amping his defences 10x (good catch there, btw) negates her connection?

She used a backdoor that no one else knew about, and suckerpunched Xavier when he least expected it (mid-whistle). Yes, Cerebra amps defences (you've convinced me), but it still does not take away the point that she was NOT overpowering his defences. Like attacking his weak points, rather than crushing his defences. Where Cerebra is concerned, there's also this:
http://i.imgur.com/wy22V0z.jpg
It amps telepathic powers across the board.

Anyway, when Chuck dons Cerebra, *poof* his mind becomes amplified to the tenth power(this is much different then a simple 10x amp, btw.) That aside, Cassandra may have had a direct connection into Chuck's mind, but in order for her to mind-phuck him the way she did, she would still have to overpower his hugely amplified mind. If she wouldn't have been stronger than him, he would have easily overcome her--direct link or not.

If you put a drop of water on a bonfire, the fire will continue to rage on. Drop a lake on the bonfire, however, and it goes out real quick. Maybe not the best analogy, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Mindset
Global range for what purpose? It'd just be a glorified telescope.

To find mutants, or perv on them, whatever Xavier wants to see them for.

Btw, another point to make: the later feats by Nova (mindraping Glads despite his armour etc) were actually done using Chuck's brain. Nova controlled it whilst it was empty, sure, but she was using Chuck's body to do it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To find mutants, or perv on them, whatever Xavier wants to see them for.

Btw, another point to make: the later feats by Nova (mindraping Glads despite his armour etc) were actually done using Chuck's brain. Nova controlled it whilst it was empty, sure, but she was using Chuck's body to do it. But we know cerebro/cerebra let's them do more than just sense people.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Btw, another point to make: the later feats by Nova (mindraping Glads despite his armour etc) were actually done using Chuck's brain. Nova controlled it whilst it was empty, sure, but she was using Chuck's body to do it. ...Xavier's brain must actually have phasing and tk powers that he was waiting to break out the next time he got possessed?

Originally posted by Galan007
Cassandra using Cerebra to locate Chuck doesn't change its fundamental purpose--it amps its wearer's psychic senses to the tenth power.

To say that Cerebra wasn't doing what it was built to do in that scene is... Baseless, to say the least. srsly
Because he didn't actually had time to use it before she basically suckershotted him.

Just like Xavier isn't 10 times more powerful than her because he expelled her from his body while she was wearing cerebra. It doesn't makes any sense.

So Cerebra wasn't doing what it was built to do in that one scene, iyo? Gotcha.

So Xavier >>>Nova? Because he did exactly the same to her while he was scattered into a billion pieces.

Unlike Nova.

Looks like we won't agree on the cerebra incident, but at least we can all agree Nova beats MB.

Nope. Not even close.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So Xavier >>>Nova? Because he did exactly the same to her while he was scattered into a billion pieces.

Unlike Nova. You dodged the question.

But anyway, the scenes are entirely different.

Cassandra straight up mind-phucked a Cerebra-amped Xavier--tore his thoughts to pieces(Jean literally said "your thoughts are bleeding."

Conversely, Jean divided Chuck's mind/essence into every mutant mind on earth. When Cassandra used Cerebra to reach out to these collective minds, the backlash was enough to drive her out of Xavier's body. However, the prominent force behind that was the fact that one of those minds was Jean herself--who just so happened to be tapping the power of the Phoenix at the time...

Cassandra: "No! White-Hot claws tearing through my head..." (an obvious reference to the Phoenix.)
Jean/Phoenix: "You're not welcome in his body or this world, Cassandra... Not while I'm here to protect it."
*Poof* Cassandra is separated from Chuck's body:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t/24682547_New_X-Men_v1_126-024.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t/24682548_New_X-Men_v1_126-025.jpg

So basically, it took Phoenix+Xavier to overcome Cassandra after she'd used a lot of energy on other tasks. I suppose you might call that a poor showing... I wouldn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
You dodged the question.


And you dodged mine.

She suckershotted him. Not a straight up fight.



No, Jean had to give up his mind because it was too powerful for her.

It was Xavier who expelled her from his body and regained his body.

Nova straight up mindraped same Jean without cerebra in the same page.

But while amped to 10th power she got mindraped by her?

Who was straight up less powerful than Charles.

Yeah, right.

Phoenix didn't do anything. You're also forgetting that Nova would've been amped to 10th power as well.

So it's Charles+Jean (who was less powerful than him) >>>>Nova amped to tenth power>>>Xavier amped to tenth power?

Not sure how that even makes sense.

You can ignore and downplay all you want, abhi. The scans are clear:

Originally posted by Galan007
Conversely, Jean divided Chuck's mind/essence into every mutant mind on earth. When Cassandra used Cerebra to reach out to these collective minds, the backlash was enough to drive her out of Xavier's body. However, the prominent force behind that was the fact that one of those minds was Jean herself--who just so happened to be tapping the power of the Phoenix at the time...

Cassandra: "No! White-Hot claws tearing through my head..." (an obvious reference to the Phoenix.)
Jean/Phoenix: "You're not welcome in his body or this world, Cassandra... Not while I'm here to protect it."
*Poof* Cassandra is separated from Chuck's body:
http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t/24682547_New_X-Men_v1_126-024.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t/24682548_New_X-Men_v1_126-025.jpg

So basically, it took Phoenix+Xavier to overcome Cassandra after she'd used a lot of energy on other tasks. I suppose you might call that a poor showing... I wouldn't.

Jean tapping the Phoenix Force + Xavier drove Cassandra from Chuck's body. Jean never tapped the PF at any other point in the story, so Cassandra's showings against her prior to that are irrelevant to the scene in question.

"WHITE-HOT CLAWS TEARING THROUGH MY HEAD", coupled with Phoenix's subsequent monologue, is a dead giveaway that the Phoenix was a driving force behind Cassandra's defeat.

Originally posted by Galan007
You can ignore and downplay all you want, abhi. The scans are clear:


Yeah, Nova suckershot Charles. We get it.

But when she got mindraped by Charles, it doesn't matters.

Wut? Jean was channeling Phoenix subconsciously. It wasn't until NXM 149 that she actually accessed Phoenix when she and Logan were about to die.

And her power signature has always been a Phoenix bird.

So someone less powerful than Charles mindraped her while she was amped to tenth power?

Good to know.

The Phoenix manifested itself once against Cassandra during that arc--and that was in the scene I posted above.

I'm also not sure why you keep acting like I'm making this up: the Phoenix was clearly detrimental to Cassandra's defeat. The dialogue is perfectly clear:
http://i.imgur.com/2eFBRGt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6vW2JUQ.jpg

Again: The Phoenix+Xavier was able to drive Cassandra from Chuck's body. It's right there on panel.



While your lowballing/downplaying is always fun, I'm not going to continue indulging it. So if anyone else has an intelligible argument, I'm all ears.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Phoenix manifested itself once against Cassandra during that arc--and that was in the scene I posted above.


Uh, what? Jean was constantly channeling Phoenix under Morrison.

That is made clear. It'd not like she accessed Phoenix powers all of a sudden.

I'm also not sure why you are ignoring that Nova mind raped Phoenix on the very same page.

Without cerebra. How can Jean do anything to her while she is wearing Cerebra? As you are the one who keep reminding us that Cerebra amps psychic defenses and that's the only damn feat Nova has.

baka

I'm just using your own argument.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To find mutants, or perv on them, whatever Xavier wants to see them for.

Btw, another point to make: the later feats by Nova (mindraping Glads despite his armour etc) were actually done using Chuck's brain. Nova controlled it whilst it was empty, sure, but she was using Chuck's body to do it.

Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.

Originally posted by Galan007

If you put a drop of water on a bonfire, the fire will continue to rage on. Drop a lake on the bonfire, however, and it goes out real quick. Maybe not the best analogy, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Your analogy sucks, and you suck, and so does Smurph. Only abhi, my bestest buddy in the forum, doesn't suck

But all hilarity aside, the way I see it, is this. Imagine you have a PC with encrypted files you don't want anyone to access. Protected by 512bit encryption, AV programs up the wazoo, multiple firewalls, <insert technobabble here>, the works. Hell, this PC won't even be connected to the wider world, being in isolation deep underground. No Wifi, no modem, nothing.

But you wrote the password to the files on a Post-It note, and left it by the side of the PC.

Sure, it's got powerful encryption, and incredible firewalls. Won't mean a thing if I can just sit there and type the password in.

THAT'S how I see the mind-link. Am I brute forcing your files? No. Am I more skilled than the firewall programmers? No. I have an easy way in, that bypasses all of that fancy stuff.

Originally posted by Mindset
But we know cerebro/cerebra let's them do more than just sense people.

It does now. When Xavier first puts it on, it's to act as a GPS locator.

Originally posted by Smurph
...Xavier's brain must actually have phasing and tk powers that he was waiting to break out the next time he got possessed?

What Red Skull does when in possession of Xavier's brain - applicable to Red Skull? So in threads where Red Skull is mentioned, I can use his feats when in possession of Xavier's mind?

Originally posted by Galan007

So basically, it took Phoenix+Xavier to overcome Cassandra after she'd used a lot of energy on other tasks. I suppose you might call that a poor showing... I wouldn't.

Did it? If I get into a fight, it doesn't take Tyson and Ali in their prime to take me down - I'd still piss my pants if they started fighting me, though.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.

Yes, a power boost. But if Quentin had a special backdoor to get in?

Basically, Nova had four great feats in her short story arc:


Mind-raping Chuck whilst he was in Cerebra
Effortlessly taking Xavier/Jean/Scott out at the mansion
Plunging the Shi-Ar empire into war, and effortlessly destroying Gladiator and other Guardians whilst they had mind-armour on
Needing (?) Phoenix and Xavier to kick her out of Chuck's body


Those are the feats. 4, I have already touched on. 3 was achieved with Xavier's brain and Xavier's central nervous system - not to mention, all she did was mind-control Lilandra, NOT the entire empire (Chuck has feats of FAR greater scope). The mind-armour of the Guardians SEEM suspect, as well.

2 was achieved with an infected, weakened Jean, and Xavier's role is suspect. At what point was he compromised? This is the question no one can answer. His actions can certainly be seen in a negative light (and a positive one, of course).

1, I still regard as suspect - because of that mind-link. She caught him unawares, using her link - and as soon as he became aware of what she was doing, he drew his gun and forced her out.

How powerful are the Stepfords? Because they were the ones who broke Nova's hold over everyone:
http://postimg.org/image/7jyqnuu8j/

Is Nova powerful? Yes. >10x Xavier, or Phoenix-level? No. Beast resisted her, and nearly killed her when Beak broke her concentration. Wolverine and Beast, together, resisted her. Cyclops ignored her, and could've stopped her.

Computers don't overheat with the fan whirring (see:nosebleed) when you put the password in

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Computers don't overheat with the fan whirring (see:nosebleed) when you put the password in

I might get a nosebleed when, in the course of navigating through the PC, it realises I am there, rallies, and forcibly ejects me from the system.

Whilst at the same time, I'm having a convo and TK playing with my dead puppet soliders.

Yeah, my analogy kinda fell over there, lol.

Or I mentally overpowered you

Actually, let's refine it further.

Galan's PC is super protected. Firewalls everywhere, incredibly strong encryption, NO line to the outside world.

Unfortunately, he accidentally PM'd his password to me, because he's cray like that (just like his PC, heh).

One day, he just HAS to get that sweet strap on porn. Connects his PC through AOL.

DS strikes. Using the password he sent, AND the link Galan has now set up, I get into his PC, and infect it with thousands of images of hairy women porn. Armpit hair, the works.

By the time he realises it, yes, Galan is super mad. Immediately starts infecting MY PC, and kicks me out, using the superior power of his PC. My PC overheats, and is damaged slightly.

But the damage is done. He has hairy women on his PC.

Did I outskill him? No. Did I brute force his passwords, and break into his PC? No.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Or I mentally overpowered you

Well, yes, in this scenario, you ARE Xavier in Cerebra - of course you mentally overpowered me.

I suckershotted you, when you least expected it - when you realised, you threw me out. I still managed to damage you when I suckershotted you, though.

All that was stated is that Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck. IOW, it allowed her to psychically lock-on to his location. It wasn't stated that this direct line of contact made it easier for her to mindphuck him, however.

Using the computer analogy: if a virus were to actually make it directly into my system(say I opened a virus-stricken email or w/e), it would still have to beat my various firewall/anti-virus measures before it could start phucking with my files directly... That's what Cassandra did to Chuck's mind almost instantly: she entered it, beat it's amped defense measures, and literally tore it apart.

If the feat required as little effort as you're describing, then Cassandra's nose wouldn't have been bleeding afterward(that in itself implies that she was utilizing a great deal of psychic effort.) As mentioned above: it was never alluded to that having a direct link to Chuck's mind gave Cassandra some sort of 'psychic cheat code' that enabled her to mindphuck him easier. So far as we know, she's simply that uber.

IMO.

What I believe DS is alluding to is his genetic link to Nova, not the Cerebra link.

From what was posted earlier, in Cassandra's words, "Charles and I have shared a unique psychic frequency since conception. It was no effort to take possession of his wonderful mutant brain and use it as my own.

This implies that it was plot device that she did the feat and not ALL by sheer overpowering. Something like how Sue manages to bypass Celestials durability.

Cassandra is explicitly stated how she managed to be able do the feat. This is clear writer intent.

Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later.

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later.

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

The feat is still impressive. It's just that with that plot device it makes it easier than without. I'm just going by writer's intent. She has a valid reason of how she is able to take control of his mind. In other words, the writer is saying that without that plot device then it would have been a lot harder or not possible. It's like performing a feat with help. In some cases, the feat is still impressive.

But yes, I got my wires crossed here. I just thought it was a misunderstanding between you two on the same scene and I was just trying to straighten it out.

My opinion on the fight is that Chester holds her off just long enough to use tk on her. But she also has tk. So this might not work well but then again I think this is an interesting thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your wires are crossed. The scene being discussed isn't when Cassandra took control of Chuck. That came later.

Aside from that, possessing the same psychic frequency as Chuck doesn't change the fact that Cassandra still had to overwhelm his amped defenses in order to mindphuck him in the manner she initially did. Don't know why on earth you'd think that someone possessing the same frequency as Chuck inextricably renders his amped mind totally defenseless..? That wasn't stated anywhere.

Exactly. Even with the same frequencies, Chuck should still be able to overwhelm her since he had an Amp in his possession. Example, two Kryptonian being under a yellow sun for the same amount of time. Both absorbing the same amount of energy, storing the same amount of solar radiation into their cells. Now give one of those Kryptonians a 10 times amp. Even with a surprise attack, the amped Kryptonian should be able to overwhelm the far weaker Kryptonian who was previously his equal due to energy absorption (hope that made sense).

Originally posted by Galan007
All that was stated is that Cerebra led Cassandra straight to Chuck. IOW, it allowed her to psychically lock-on to his location. It wasn't stated that this direct line of contact made it easier for her to mindphuck him, however.

Using the computer analogy: if a virus were to actually make it directly into my system(say I opened a virus-stricken email or w/e), it would still have to beat my various firewall/anti-virus measures before it could start phucking with my files directly... That's what Cassandra did to Chuck's mind almost instantly: she entered it, beat it's amped defense measures, and literally tore it apart.

If the feat required as little effort as you're describing, then Cassandra's nose wouldn't have been bleeding afterward(that in itself implies that she was utilizing a great deal of psychic effort.) As mentioned above: it was never alluded to that having a direct link to Chuck's mind gave Cassandra some sort of 'psychic cheat code' that enabled her to mindphuck him easier. So far as we know, she's simply that uber.

IMO.



Cerebra led her to him (in my analogy, the AOL link) and their connection gave her a backdoor (in my analogy, your password written down for me to easily use).

As SOON as you realise what's happening, you shut me down, and throw me out, with your superior power. I still did some initial damage, though (enjoy those hairy women!). However, in throwing me out, you damage me.

That's how I read the whole scene. Then later, Xavier's suspect actions leads me to question at what point exactly did Cassandra's mind-control start.

Originally posted by carver9
Exactly. Even with the same frequencies, Chuck should still be able to overwhelm her since he had an Amp in his possession. IF he was more powerful than her, yes... But he wasn't... So he couldn't.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Cerebra led her to him (in my analogy, the AOL link) and their connection gave her a backdoor (in my analogy, your password written down for me to easily use).

As SOON as you realise what's happening, you shut me down, and throw me out, with your superior power. I still did some initial damage, though (enjoy those hairy women!). However, in throwing me out, you damage me.

That's how I read the whole scene. Then later, Xavier's suspect actions leads me to question at what point exactly did Cassandra's mind-control start. Based on the evidence at hand, I think this is a stretch... So I'll have to disagree for reasons I've already covered.

Originally posted by Galan007
IF he was more powerful than her, yes... But he wasn't... So he couldn't.

Based on the evidence at hand, I think this is a stretch... So I'll have to disagree for reasons I've already covered.

Fair enough!

Originally posted by Galan007
IF he was more powerful than her, yes... But he wasn't... So he couldn't.

Based on the evidence at hand, I think this is a stretch... So I'll have to disagree for reasons I've already covered.

I worded that part wrong but overall, I agree with you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Is Nova powerful? Yes. >10x Xavier, or Phoenix-level? No.
Pretty much my thoughts on it. Leo and I brought it up some time ago, but it's, perhaps understandably, an unpopular opinion. Kudos for presenting it well though.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How powerful are the Stepfords? Because they were the ones who broke Nova's hold over everyone:
http://postimg.org/image/7jyqnuu8j/
Hard to anwer exactly how powerful they are. They came into an oversaturated telepath market, with writers not really agreeing on where they should be.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Esme (or was it Sophie?) uses cerebra together with kick to attack Quentin Quire when he's only like 10 feet away, because it gives a power boost as well.
It was Sophie. Well, it was Esme manipulating Sophie. Quentin was on kick too though.