THE FORCE AWAKENS - discussion with SPOILERS!!!

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queeq
Okay guys, let's talk. What did ya think?

What did you like, what didn't you like? etc. SPOILERS ARE WELCOME!!!






My review:

I have to watch it again, but I am moderately positive. It's not ESB but it certainly is no PT either. I'd rank it along the lines of ROTJ/ROTS. So shared third place I think. At this moment. I have to see it again a couple of times to really make up my mind.

First some 'baddish' news. The plot is NOT very original and goes along the same lines as ANH and ESB merged into one.

1. Important data put in droid, sent off to desert planet
2. Stormtroopers go down to find the droid
3. Droid gets found by local desert dweller (Rey) - stormtroopers attack
4. Rey and droid flee planet with Millennium Falcon and outrun the First Order spaceships
5. They meet old man/mentor, this time Han Solo
6. Important data returned to Resistance
7. Big planetoid weapon that can destroy several planets in one go.
8. Plans are made to destroy planet/weapon
9. Solo, Rey and Finn go down to knock out shield of the planet, while fleet attacks it.

Then the other plot line
1. Dark villain destroys village, captures and tortures important pilot
2. Dark villain is family member of major character
3. Dark villain has mysterious old master who appears als hologram
4. He has a military sidekick: a Grand Moff Tarkin, admiral Piett character - i.e. Hux
5. Major beloved character gets killed by villain, as witnessed by his friends (Solo/OB1).

etc etc.

Sound familiar? Yes, very...

However... the new characters are great. Rey is not Luke. Finn is not Solo. Poe Dameron is a nice and fresh character. Kylo Ren is a bit of an emo, but a powerful one and that makes him quite unpredictable, which is good IMHO. A guy we can enjoy for two more movies at least.

So even though this movie checks all the OT boxes in an almost mechanical way, it certainly FEELS different. Mostly because the Solo storyline is so good and Ford excels here, that he kind of distracts from the generic storyline.

And I think it sets up a bigger story, that could go in a very different direction.


What I didn't like was this:
1. the constant nods/copies of OT moments. Abrams should have done like two in the first half hour and be done with it. There's a whole list. It starts with Finn in the Millennium gun turret. I could buy that, we're in the beginning. It was set up in the TIE fighter, so okay.

But then the chessboard, the pirate hive, the trash compactor line by Ford... well, there are so many that it started to bother me.

2. The old droids
I felt the 3PO and R2 scenes we're a bit obsolete. What's the point of the red arm? 3PO makes a serious point of it, but it 's completely irrelevant. And then there's R2, totally depressed because Luke is missing that he doesn't have power... I thought: WTF???? He's a machine! The neurotic 3PO is as far as you can push this, I think. But R2 as a depressed droid???? Come on, that only works in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

And why is he under a sheet? If he doesn't work, toss him out.
And why does R2 suddenly come to life? What triggered that? Nah, it's not as bad as a flying R2, but it gets pretty close in demonstrating that the days of the OT droids are over.
BB8 is great btw.

3. Ani's lightsaber
I didn't quite buy the whole lightsaber-is-calling-you bit. That's a kind of mystical SW lore that I have never heard of. I mean, I've lost count on how many lightsabers were lost in the saga so far. And the Force, the energy field created by all LIVING things, connected to a dead, metal object... I mean, that's...errrr.... WEIRD!

This is where is got a little funny.

4. The lightsaber fight
My biggest problem is probably the fight between Rey and Kylo. I just don't buy that she can just beat him with a little tuning into the Force. I mean, it took Luke years of meditation and a couple of months of intense training to master the Force a bit, yet he never really stood a chance against Vader in the Cloud City fight. And here Rey (totally Untrained) beats a pretty well trained Kylo Ren... come on. SW shouldn't continue to break its own rules.

The way the Finn fight went, that was more credible for how the Rey fight should have been.

What I liked was the mind battle between Rey and Kylo. That to me was credible because she mastered a little thing: to block her mind from Kylo. (Oh and BTW, since when can Force users read data from minds? I thought they could only sense emotions, moods and stuff like that? Hmm... this was something of debate in the past years at least)

When she started to use the Jedi mind trick I wondered: how the heck does she know a) THAT a Force user can do that and b) how to do that? So here it started to tilt a bit, although the humour kinda saved the scene.

5. Final 'space' battle
Looked great. I have no complaints about Abrams visceral style. But I did feel this battle came off a a bit easy. They mention that there are only a few fighters left, but the kind of despair that they might not pull it off (like in the ANH trench battle) was lacking. And then Poe just flew in and blew the place up... It felt very very easy...


So there. Let me know what you guys think!

Bardock42
First, I probably wouldn't put it above ANH and ESB, but from my first viewing I think it cracked the top 3 for me. I will see it again on tuesday.

I didn't mind that the plot was very similar to the OT (basically a bit of a mix up of ANH and some ESB), I think it put a good spin on it and probably exposes new audiences to what I loved about Star Wars when I was a kid. It's a bit like an in-universe reboot almost, but very well done I think.

I agree with you that the new characters were amazing, I'm completely invested in all of them already. Love Rey and Finn particularly. They have fantastic chemistry. In fact the most awkward part for me was probably one of the longer dialogues between Han and Leia...also because it was one of the "exposition" parts, but not a big deal over all.

I agree that the 3PO and R2 parts weren't necessary, but there wasn't very much of it, and it did add some of the nostalgia factor.

Something I didn't like, it felt like the "good guys" were a bit to eager to hurt the stormtroopers. In particular the haha-lets crush her in the garbage compressor scene was distasteful.




Like I said in the other thread, the lightsaber fight is probably my favourite part. It delivered on everything I wished for. I'll just repost what I said in the other thread:

I actually thought the Lightsaber fight was fantastic. It was exactly what I wanted after the insane, over the top, gymnastic-like duels in the PT. It seemed like a realistic fight rather than a choreography put on to look the most flashy.

As for Rey ultimately overtaking Kylo Ren, I also think that makes sense. I never really liked the idea of Jedi being unstoppable forces, and I really appreciated how The Force Awakens went back to a more reasonable power level (in parts, some of the force aspects seemed extremely powerful, I guess we'll see how it goes). At any rate, I think Jedi should be more in the vein of a James Bond with slight magical abilities, rather than a full blown Gandalf, as the PT sort of made them, and definitely the cartoons.

Kylo being wounded, perhaps very much so, and already having gone up against Finn beforehand should also give Rey a huge advantage.

It's not like Rey or Finn are novices at fighting, either. Finn is a highly trained storm trooper (potentially also partly trained in close quarter weapons combat, as the other Stormtrooper had a weapon of that kind). And Rey is very adept in staff fighting (which she also seems to incorporate in her style of saber fighting), as well as potentially even more powerful thank Kylo in the force, she definitely has amazing reflexes which should help with duelling a lot.

And Kylo Ren likely didn't do a ridiculous amount of lightsaber training himself. a) there are no Jedi to duel so why really bother b) he apparently only started later in his life to train with Luke as well, so he probably wasn't trained in swordsmanship from a young age.

So on the whole, I was extremely happy with the direction of the duel, and I hope they keep it up. Obviously it can become a bit more skilled and perhaps flashy in some ways, but I do not want to go back to Yoda v. Dooku....that was a pile of garbage of epic proportions.

queeq
To me, I think Harrison Ford makes this movie stand out. He is truly great. Id didn't mind the 'long' dialogues... to me it wasn't just exposition. It was also a lot of regret and pain... Two people with a long history we know hardly anything about.

This is what I replied to you about the lightsaber fight in the other thread. There in spoiler tags, here without:


It comes down to two things: skill with the lightsaber and skill in using the Force.

Your assumption that Kylo didn't have much training is highly questionable, at least. The movie tells us he trained with Luke along with a number of others until he destroyed the new Jedi order. I'm pretty sure Luke had them training with the sabre, the weapon of a Jedi Knight. At least, that's an assumption that makes more sense than Kylo not having practised much.

The other is skill with the Force. Kylo was trained both by Luke and Snoke. So he should be a lot more advanced. I'd have preferred the earthquake to come between Kylo and Rey before he slaughtered her. At least then, for protection she has reason to go into training. Now, she can already beat the universe's new Darth Vader. To me, not a strong point.

You make a good point about her being able to fight with a stick. But still... the whole idea that a Jedi can see a blow coming (see things before they happen) and lightsaber fighting therefore is a skill by itself is not directly countered by skill in stick fighting.

Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the fight itself was great in choreography. It was no longer the emotionless ballet and twirling stuff from the PT but an actual fight, with both skill and grit.

Bardock42
I agree that Han was great, I guess this one scene just made me cringe, I'll see if I feel the same way the second time around.

Regarding the lightsaber, I think beyond the two things you said it also comes down to a third, the extend of the handicap that Kylo Ren had in the fight. And in my opinion that could be immense. I am not exactly sure but I think he was show with Chewbaccas crossbow, a weapon whose immense power has been shown multiple times in the movie, as far as we know it may have taken most of his concentration and force to keep himself together and alive (even if it was just a normal blaster it could be a very devastating wound). Perhaps less important but still a factor may also be his emotional state, he was obviously very conflicted about his father, an Rey reading his great fear and then show immense adeptness at the force must have had some mental impact on him.


Lightsaber Skill

Regarding Kylo Ren, I do agree with you that he is surely skilled at lightsaber combat, I did not mean to deny it. What I'm trying to say is that from my reading he probably doesn't have comparable training in lightsaber combat as people like Obi Wan or Darth Vader had, for a couple of reasons.

And the other side is that there's no reason not to assume that Rey and Finn are very good at close combat weapons. Your point about Jedi being able to see a blow coming, that's sort of why I think it makes sense that Rey is very good at this kind of combat. She has the reflexes of a skilled pilot, so it's perfectly possible that she has at least rudimentary predictive powers already.

Force Skill:

Generally I can see why Rey's adeptness in the force and her quick learning seems perhaps too quick. But I don't think it factors as much into this fight.

For one Jedi usually don't just casually use the force in their fights, it seems like duelling generally takes most of their attention away, and just in some cases we can see a force push, or telekinetic bombardment, and most of the time they stop with the combat to perform these things.

And secondly Kylo's aforementioned preoccupation with his wounds, it may make a lot of sense that he is unable to perform extreme feats of force use (like when he paralysed Rey before) in the situation of the fight.

I don't know, on the whole I think there is just a lot of reasons to explain why the fight went the way it went without considering Kylo weak, or assuming that in a more equal meet up (i.e. Kylo not bleeding to death) Rey or Finn would have any sort of chance.


Oh, another thing I didn't like. The New Republic getting destroyed, and well, we didn't have any reason to care for them, but the thing is, the resistance didn't seem to care even one bit either. Like there was almost no emotional impact to 6 planets being destroyed...that's just odd.

queeq
Yeah I agree on the Republic/Resistance thing. They were a little bit too far from us.

Well, as we may disagree about the credibility thing of the lightsaber fight, this is however how we both would like to SEE these fights.

And I thought Finn was fine. He couldn't fight well with it, not against the other stormtrooper or against Kylo. So that was fine, he said he only knew how to use a blaster anyway, so he self confessed he wasn't good at any other weapon.

Another thing, that didn't bother the movie much, was the disappointing Snoke. Weird character, not very impressive as an evil overlord. He is meant to look all ugly and evil, but he doesn't impress me much. Compare that to Palpy in ROTJ... he scared the crap out of me, while he looked like a wrinkly old man. So not sold on Snoke.

Also, I wonder where this guy comes from. He looks quite ancient, but I cannot possibly imagine that Palpy would allow such a dark Force user around in his day. So there's some mystery to be cleared... (or not, because exposition is boring wink )

queeq
Here's a question: the fat bearded resistance pilot... is that the son of the illustrious Porkins?

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by queeq
Here's a question: the fat bearded resistance pilot... is that the son of the illustrious Porkins?

I'm already well spoiled, so I don't mind being in here...

Fat bearded pilot is named Snap Wexely, played by Abrams' good luck charm Greg Grunberg.

The last name of Wexley has already been used in the new canon with Star Wars: Aftermath. This is set only half a year after Endor, I believe. Norra Wexley was a pilot in the Battle of Endor. Her son is 14 year old Temmin Wexley.

It's quite possible that Temmin became a pilot himself and now goes by the nickname Snap. He would be about 44 in TFA and Grunberg himself is 49.

Scribble
I'm rewatching it as soon as I can. I agree with a lot of both of your points, both good and bad. It was hardly perfect, but a lot of it was really good; I think by about halfway through, it had me captured. The lightsaber battle was great: I liked how Ren and Rey had their own fighting style, but so did Finn, even though he isn't necessarily a force-sensitive. It was a tasteful and tension-filled fight, and reminded me of something like the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Maul fight crossed with Vader vs Luke in ROTJ. The humour overall I though worked well, it didn't go over the top. The story had weak points, and the inclusion of what was essentially just the Death Star seemed a bit underwhelming, but Hux's speech before the Starkiller destroyed the Republic system was pretty intense. Domhnall Gleeson pulled it off perfectly.

Boyega and Ridley both impressed me. As the film went on, their characters really grew on me. I loved the whole bait-and-switch in the trailers regarding which of those two was the true force-sensitive.

Kylo Ren was a highlight for me. I was worried at first when he took off his mask, but Driver nailed it, really.

Like I say, it had its faults, and I could probably go on about a few points that didn't really work for me, but as a first impression, I really liked it. I'm not going to rate it against the first two films yet, because it felt like it was its own thing, not overly influenced by the originals nor the prequels. If I had to describe it in accordance with the previous films, I'd say it felt like a cross between A New Hope and Empire, atmosphere-wise and thematically.

Need to see it again soon, I watched it in 3D and 3D always pulls me out of the film somewhat, so I want to rewatch it so that I can really get a feel for it. Also, two god damn years until the next one.

Overall, pretty pleased with it. Definitely better than any of the prequels (and I'm not even a typical prequel-basher; TFA was just a lot better).


Edit: I'm surprised to see that you find Han's decision to chuck Phasma in the garbage chute 'distasteful', Bardock – it's Han Solo, why would he care? He smoked Greedo just for even threatening him. That's kind of Han's character.

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by Scribble
Also, two god damn years until the next one.

Don't forget we're also getting other Star Wars films between the main story ones! Rogue One is less than a year away.

Scribble
Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
Don't forget we're also getting other Star Wars films between the main story ones! Rogue One is less than a year away. Rogue One should be fun, but I need more from this new Star Wars time period. I need more! ha-son

Morridini
Saw it, loved it, going to bed, maybe writing more thoughts tomorrow.

Bardock42
I didn't mind too much about Han, my issue was with Finn. Especially after the emotional scene with the storm trooper dying in his arms in the beginning. He went "lol kill them all", pretty quickly.

Scribble

ares834
Loved it. My biggest problem was Rey defeating Kylo at the end. But even that is a minor quibble.

NewGuy01
Had a lot of fun for the most part, liked most of what they did. My most major complaints:

1.) The force's portrayal, and how it was treated/discussed by the characters
2.) The pacing in general
3.) The repeat Death Star plot, and how little it seemed to matter. I.E I felt nothing but disappointment when SK blew up.
4.) Rey's insane, out of nowhere lightsaber mastery and super cheesy oneness moment.

There were a lot of upsides, though. I loved most of the cast! Obviously Han stole the show, but Finn was awesome. I also cared about Poe way more than Wedge, tbh.

Other than the final scene with Rey, I loved the lightsaber combat in this movie. It seemed real, unstaged, and it was really just brutal in the way a lightsaber duel really should be.

I'm wondering if Snoke is actually that ****ing huge? Because that would be super interesting, seriously. I'm guessing he's not, though...

quanchi112
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Had a lot of fun for the most part, liked most of what they did. My most major complaints:

1.) The force's portrayal, and how it was treated/discussed by the characters
2.) The pacing in general
3.) The repeat Death Star plot, and how little it seemed to matter. I.E I felt nothing but disappointment when SK blew up.
4.) Rey's insane, out of nowhere lightsaber mastery and super cheesy oneness moment.

There were a lot of upsides, though. I loved most of the cast! Obviously Han stole the show, but Finn was awesome. I also cared about Poe way more than Wedge, tbh.

Other than the final scene with Rey, I loved the lightsaber combat in this movie. It seemed real, unstaged, and it was really just brutal in the way a lightsaber duel really should be.

I'm wondering if Snoke is actually that ****ing huge? Because that would be super interesting, seriously. I'm guessing he's not, though... Why wouldn't he be that big ? When the other characters appear in holograms their size has never been that big. Snoke is awesome and I can't wait to see more from him. Finally a character I can really get into from this franchise aside from Maul.

ares834
Originally posted by quanchi112
When the other characters appear in holograms their size has never been that big.

Clearly you have never seen Empire Strikes Back.

rKtciRCVpFE

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
Clearly you have never seen Empire Strikes Back.

rKtciRCVpFE Oh yeah but that was of his face not his entire body. This was of Snoke's entire body iirc. When we see the Jedi convening for council they were normal size.

Raptor22
It seems like im in the minority in that i was pretty disappointed. It was like JJ just took the OT and mashed them up into one movie.

Finn, poe, rey, and han were all excellent. Their characters, interactions, and dialog with eachother were great, the battles and lightsaber fights were done well, but far too often i thought to myself- man that scene was good, but i liked it better the first time i saw it in ANH/ESB/RotJ etc.

It was like what JJ did to Star Trek into Darkness, where he basically took the plot from Wrath of Khan and the plot from Undiscovered Country combined the stories into one film and presented it as something original.

It wasn't a bad but it wasnt really good either.

Bashar Teg
i loved it. the fan winking was a bit much, but it was 1-expected, and 2-never so bad as to make me cringe.

wish we could have seen more of luke.

as far as plot mirroring, it's just an apparent fact that droids make for great smugglers. they keep a low and anonymous profile, cant be sensed/mindread through the force...they just tend to be easily overlooked as we've seen over and over.

for the most part JJ was tasteful and kept his trademark shakey-cam and lense flair at bay and only used them when cinematically relevant.

i wont really be able to give it a confident ranking just yet. need to see it again. hell i still need to process the first viewing. for certain is there was no cringing in my seat at any point. so that puts it way above the prequels for me.

oh and queeq, i'm pretty sure that luke switched r2 on remotely or via the force. i dont think it was a matter of a depressed droid. 3p0 was just projecting imho. r2 is always in on the big plot while 3p0 gets left in the dark because he's a blabbermouth.

Bashar Teg
oh and bb8 is the cutest little shit.

maybe he activated r2?

Raptor22
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
oh and bb8 is the cutest little shit.

maybe he activated r2? ya bb8 was great. Loved him returning finns thumbs up with his little torch after their little conspiratorial convo behind reys back.

JediRobin23
Pretty good movie. I'm tired and upset about Han Solo dying. Goodnight...

queeq
Originally posted by Bashar Teg

oh and queeq, i'm pretty sure that luke switched r2 on remotely or via the force. i dont think it was a matter of a depressed droid. 3p0 was just projecting imho. r2 is always in on the big plot while 3p0 gets left in the dark because he's a blabbermouth.

That doesn't make sense either. Why does Luke want to be found?

And the fact that we all debate about its reasons, just demonstrates this is rather silly.

But R2 has had his two trilogies. BB8 can have this one. Love him!

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
oh and queeq, i'm pretty sure that luke switched r2 on remotely or via the force.

He was in "Low Power Mode" since Luke left, my guess is that this entire time he's been working on finding the rest of the map that the First Order already had from the Empire archives. He's been scanning everything this entire time and now with the new map piece he was able to find it.

relentless1
I enjoyed the film, id say it was a solid B+. Loved the new characters, they felt very organic and even the older ones seemed naturally fit backing this universe. Hated that they dipped into the Death star well, AGAIN and they could have down without all the ANH and ESB story points the they lifted from the OT, also cliffhanger endings irritate me, it doesnt feel like a complete film when thats done and what a gyp that we see Luke for like 30 seconds. The good outweigh the bad here though and I'm excited to see where the story goes from here and anticipate a fight between a fully trained Kylo and Rey somewhere down the road. All intrigue by Snoke and what part he will have to play in all this.

NewLanceWindu
I thought the film was amazing. I enjoyed almost everything about it.

Just a couple things I wasn't 100% on board with but they didn't take away from my overall enjoyment.

1. The Rathtar scene. It just felt like something for a different franchise.
2. Starkiller base being destroyed in just one movie. I was hoping it would carry over to at least VIII.
3. Not enough Luke. This is just me being a fanboy, I know he'll get a lot more screen time in the next movies.

That's pretty much it! I'm not understanding the criticisms of it being nothing more than a mashup of the OT movies thrown together. You have a few things that mirror ANH (kid from desert planet, droid with secret, super weapon, trench run, cantina with music), but the ENTIRE story is so completely different.

This is Star Wars brought to the 21st century properly. The practical effects, the cinematography, the sets, the CG, the story, the characters, the humor...it all felt right.

I'm not sure where I'll place this in my rankings yet, but it's superior to all of the PT. I can't wait to see it a couple more times in theater.

queeq
Well, the lack of originality bothers some. Me a little.
And the too many nods, IMHO, to the OT in the sense of copying moments. Like the chess board, the pirate hive that kinda stuff.

One OT reference that I would have liked though, is if Luke at the end would have turned around with a smile, thrown back his hood and had welcomed Rey by saying: "Hello there". His change into the OB1 of this trilogy would then have been complete and rightly so because his student turned to the Dark Side as well... But that's just me.

Luke's in the next one. Well, great. We ended Han's story here, in the next we can conclude Luke's.

Bardock42
I mean the going back to the death star thing really makes sense. It's the most powerful weapon ever created, if you were an evil empire you'd keep building them as well. Perhaps more structurally sound, but that has been an issue of suspending disbelief since the first one.

Bentley
Ah crap, I clicked here without noticing this was the thread with spoilers.

I don't mind being spoiled, so meh.

BackFire
I just got back from a midnight screening.

I'm not as big a Star Wars fan as many in here, but I really enjoyed it. They did a great job just making it feel like Star Wars. The sets were distinctly Star Wars, having enough ruggedness to feel connected to the OT, something that the pristine and overly perfect sets from the PT lacked.

The new characters were great with the exception of Kylo Ren, who was merely good. I never really bought into his character and felt having him kill Han Solo was a somewhat lazy way to get him some villain credentials despite the fact that he seemed very weak for a "big baddy" in Star Wars. Then again, I guess he may not actually end up being the big baddy, that may go to Snoke, who I'm very curious about. I'm really interested in the next movies just to find out more about him.

Really liked BB8, too. I was a bit worried that he might end up kind of being the Jar Jar of this movie, but he fit in with the universe perfectly.

I was also a bit confused as to exactly how powerful the first order is compared to the Empire from the OT. I got the impression they were less powerful, but yet they were able to build a super duper ultra Deathstar-planet apparently without anyone noticing.

Near the end I was a bit scared Luke actually wouldn't even be in this movie, and was about to get angry. But the way they used him I thought was very smart, essentially as a huge tease for the next movie.

I agree with Bardock about the lightsaber battles as well, they were subdued but I really enjoyed them when compared to the over the top flips and spins of the PT.

The movie as a whole was really a joy to watch, I thought they did a great job balancing the new with the nostalgic and I can't wait for the next one.

Beniboybling
Thought it was really good, but I also found it difficult to get emotionally invested in the story and setting (i.e. Starkiller Base, we were never really given much reason to care) and the overall structure of the plot was a little messy and meandering.

But the cast was excellent, it was funny, the setting was stunning and Kylo Ren was a great villian. I was intially concerned that his robot voice would just be a pale imitation of Vaders, but it really shone it it's own right with the whole dry/sarcastic tone. Awesome.

NewGuy01
Exactly. A good point was brought up about how they were so scared of fans getting bored by politics that they gave us no reason to care about the Republic or the Starkiller Base's destruction. It was just totally irrelevant.

queeq
What did you guys think of Snoke? I was underwhelmed myself. He look more like something out of LOTR. And it felt he was made menacing by giving him a creepy face rather than a dangerous person.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by queeq
That doesn't make sense either. Why does Luke want to be found?

And the fact that we all debate about its reasons, just demonstrates this is rather silly.



'silly' is a bit harsh for what is simply not explained (yet).

perhaps it will be elaborated upon in the next film. r2 and luke were in the flashback, so perhaps theres something important going on with r2 that extends beyond TFA. w/e the case i think he was sitting there on standby as part of luke's design for whatever reason.

queeq
Well, when something like this, such a detail, needs to be "explained", it's already bad storytelling. Of course we won't hear about this again.

Bashar Teg
not if it's merely a consequence of the forthcoming plot.

Impediment
Han's death was too nonchalant.

Chewie casually walks past Leia without so much as a wink, no decorum, no mention at all of him or his sacrifice. It felt far too casual.

In the EU books, Chewie is the one who dies and Han grieves for a long time all the while being mean to his son, Anakin, because "he left him to die".

Lord Stark
Really enjoyed the movie. It had a great plot and storyline. I actually enjoyed Supreme Leader Snoke for the little he was in the films. I thought Kylo was a great villain until he took his mask off. It'd kinda be like if in the OT Darth Vader took off his mask, and instead of the amazingness of James Earl Jones' voice we got David Prowse's voice for the third act.

I do however have one large grievance and that is the massive efforts undertaken by Abrams to return everything to the status quo. I don't like the fact that the New Republic that the Rebel Alliance fought three movies to establish is pretty casually annihilated. I also didn't buy that the entire Republic Fleet was just sitting in orbit of Hosnian Prime waiting to be destroyed essentially. I mean that's some serious bullshit.

Also why is Hosnian Prime the capital of the New Republic? What about Chandrilla? Was Mon Mothma on the planet? What is the political state of the galaxy? Audiences can handle some politics, ala Game of Thrones, they just don't like boring politics like in the PT.

*sigh* rant over

Beniboybling
Originally posted by queeq
What did you guys think of Snoke? I was underwhelmed myself. He look more like something out of LOTR. And it felt he was made menacing by giving him a creepy face rather than a dangerous person. He has the potential to be a cool villain with the look and the voice, but as it stands he didn't really say or do anything and is essentially two dimensional.

I think it would have been better if they held of on his reveal until Episode 8 as they did with the Emperor in the OT.Originally posted by Bashar Teg
'silly' is a bit harsh for what is simply not explained (yet).

perhaps it will be elaborated upon in the next film. r2 and luke were in the flashback, so perhaps theres something important going on with r2 that extends beyond TFA. w/e the case i think he was sitting there on standby as part of luke's design for whatever reason. Nah, one of the definining qualities of Star Wars I feel is that each movie is an encompassing story in itself, that leaves only the promise of future adventure, whereas this film left a lot of loose ends.

I mean all you need do is ask yourself what questions were left unanswered by TPM and ANH to demonstrate.

Bashar Teg
absolutely OT star wars left questions temporarily unanswered, and deliberately so. so long as there is a point to the delay (yoda hinting at there being "another" in ESB) vs some pointless trivia that leaves a breadcrumb trail to nothing (syfo dias).

Lord Stark
No excuse bro. Even in ANH we had Tarkin say the Imperial Senate has been dissolve and the regional governors now have direct control of their territories. I mean we get a nice idea of the state of the galaxy with the meeting of the Joint Chiefs.

You get no information at all about the Republic or the treaty between the Republic and the First Order. Shit that would literally take a sentence to explain.

Bashar Teg
what if it really is "r2 just woke up. the end." it wasn't driven as a plot point. however luke may have left r2 for a purpose, a character who appeared only with him previous to the end of the film. must they break the final tension with mystery-luke just so its answered?

queeq
It's not. It's just a kind of a gimmick to give R2 more than just a 'hello'. The same with 3PO's red arm: that had absolutely no purpose at all. All it does is raise the question: why does he have a red arm? Simply because he makes such a point about it himself. And later even says: yes, I should put back by own arm? I mean: what's this???

They might just as well have had them there working among the other personnel. Now it's just weird. But okay, it's very short. So it's not bothersome.

Bashar Teg
it was stupid that he mentioned it. i agree on that. but 3p0 has always said inappropriate things. also, he already had a mismatched leg in the OT. maybe he can only opt for used replacement parts.

queeq
He never said anything about the leg though. And to assume that Solo wouldn't recognise him because he has a red arm is also kinda dumb.

It was nice to see them again, but the way they were written were kinda meh...

Raptor22
Originally posted by queeq
It's not. It's just a kind of a gimmick to give R2 more than just a 'hello'. The same with 3PO's red arm: that had absolutely no purpose at all. All it does is raise the question: why does he have a red arm? Simply because he makes such a point about it himself. And later even says: yes, I should put back by own arm? I mean: what's this???

They might just as well have had them there working among the other personnel. Now it's just weird. But okay, it's very short. So it's not bothersome. im guessing the red arm thing is just a money grab on disneys part since there is a 3po one shot comic releasing in feb that tells the story of his red arm.

queeq
Good point. laughing out loud

And since everyone already has a regular 3PO action figure, they can now buy new ones.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by queeq
He never said anything about the leg though. And to assume that Solo wouldn't recognise him because he has a red arm is also kinda dumb.

extremely dumb. almost as dumb as thinking that surrender to the empire was a perfectly acceptable alternative in extreme circumstances. going so far as to suggest that they may be gracious enough to

anyway they certainly could have picked a funnier and more clever way for 3p0 to annoy han.

queeq
Agree.

Bashar Teg
poor han :'(

Impediment
I posted but it was ignored. miffed

Scribble
Watching it again tonight hopefully. Can't wait to see the post-crawl opening shot of the Star Destroyer again, probably the best opening shot of any Star Wars film other than the first one.

queeq
Originally posted by Impediment
I posted but it was ignored. miffed

So, you said that Chewie didn't have a moment.

The EU remark about the books was totally irrelevant, because: EU. We don't discuss that here.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by Impediment
I posted but it was ignored. miffed

about the nonchalant dispatching? i liked it.

"the lannisters send their regards"

im just gonna miss han, thats what i was on about.

Impediment
Chewbacca deserved to have a moment, yes. Han's death just seemed so casual to me.

The Game of Thrones reference is lost to me. Not a fan at all.

Bashar Teg
similar quick dispatching. no last words. no last act of heroism. buh bye.

Impediment
I watched 7 or 8 episodes of season one of GoT and said "Bye, Felicia."

I do like how Luke looked at the end. Mark Hamill is now the same age as Alec Guiness was in ANH.

Bashar Teg
we should all remember how most of the spoiler info from filming time were pure bullshit. i'm gonna ignore it from here on. i suspect jj of taking part in poisoning the well. remember the chewie robotic arm thing?

queeq
He looked great.

And Han's death was fine by me. 30 years overdue. ;-)
And he got the greatest shots/scenery to die in. So great send off.

Raptor22
Originally posted by Impediment
Chewbacca deserved to have a moment, yes. Han's death just seemed so casual to me.

The Game of Thrones reference is lost to me. Not a fan at all. i agree it seemed to get swept under the rug rather quickly. It also made me wonder what landos up to if hes even still alive, and if their gonna have a scene where he hears the bad news.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
extremely dumb. almost as dumb as thinking that surrender to the empire was a perfectly acceptable alternative in extreme circumstances. going so far as to suggest that they may be gracious enough to

anyway they certainly could have picked a funnier and more clever way for 3p0 to annoy han. Tbh the funniest moment in the film for me was when Threepio's face popped up and he was all like "it is I C-3PO!" laughing out loudOriginally posted by Scribble
Watching it again tonight hopefully. Can't wait to see the post-crawl opening shot of the Star Destroyer again, probably the best opening shot of any Star Wars film other than the first one. Yeah that was great.

NewGuy01
The opening crawl itself was dissapointing, though. It explained none of the politics that it should have, only the "force" side of things.

In fact, that's part of the story that really, unexpectedly bothered me. Everything was about the Force. Even Poe Dameron was talking about the balance in the first scene. I mean, you could tell this was written by a fanboy, tbh. The treatment of the force is just... Off, not right.

Bashar Teg
agreed about the opening crawl.

oh and that one scene where poe takes out like 12 tie fighters in 8 seconds...that was a bit much unless they intend to make him a jedi.

SpaceMonkey
Watched it last night. Liked it a lot. Will watch it again tonight. It did seem cheesy at moments but pretty bad ass at others.

Phasma didn't do anything... I felt that was a waste.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Impediment
Chewbacca deserved to have a moment, yes. Han's death just seemed so casual to me.

The Game of Thrones reference is lost to me. Not a fan at all.


Its a reference to including politics but not boring the audience.

carthage
The acting was possibly on par with the greatest of the OT moments. Boyenga and all of the cast absolutely put their hearts in the film, and outshined the OT cast in every way in the passion they put from their facial expressions to expressing their dialogue.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by carthage
The acting was possibly on par with the greatest of the OT moments. Boyenga and all of the cast absolutely put their hearts in the film, and outshined the OT cast in every way in the passion they put from their facial expressions to expressing their dialogue. Nah, they were excellent but they didn't have as good a dynamic as the OT crowd.

queeq
I liked Poe Dameron actually. For the first time we see a pilot know to be very good, and we actually SEE him be very good.

And yeah, Phasma... what an obsolete character was that. You think she is still alive?

Impediment
I laughed like a horse when Finn gave BB-8 a thumbs up and BB-8 returned it.

Lord Stark
I think the cast is actually amazing. I hope they let Finn plow Rey by the end of it though and Poe doesn't swoop in for the kill steal excellent

queeq
Plow Rey? Wow... how womantic. wink

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by queeq
I liked Poe Dameron actually. For the first time we see a pilot know to be very good, and we actually SEE him be very good.

And yeah, Phasma... what an obsolete character was that. You think she is still alive?

too good to not be strong with the force imho. that one scene was way over the top enough to where he alone could have changed the whole ending of rotj where all the ties are shot down and lando casually glides the falcon into the death star.

JediRobin23
K, Han Solo death hit me went the lightssaber went through him. It was something when ren said "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it". Saw his death coming when he said that, but was still shocking to me. Now it seems supreme leader snoke will have to complete Rens training as he needed to kill his father first. He's a puppet just like Vader was, except this time it's snoke running the strings
I'm not totally convinced Han is dead though but probably. Leia didn't seem too upset about his death?

Now Snoke must be a sith. Wasn't much explanation of snoke in episode 7 as it's obviously setting up for episode 8.

The ending, wow, Luke to be the new yoda with Rey.

Oh, what's with the blue lightsaber that belonged to Luke? Luke lost his blue one (originally anakins) in esb when Vader cut Luke's hand off. In episode 6 Luke had a green lightsaber. My guess is that Luke built a new one after episode 6...

I could go on, but that's my initial take.....

Bashar Teg
i think luke had planted the saber deliberately so that ren would find it. struck me as way too odd that an object she never saw would trigger force-flashbacks like that. almost like he put the same spell on it that yoda may or may not have done for that cave in ESB.

Gambler
Well, it is kind of Star Wars. Say what you want, but it lacked Lucas's touch. Not that he should have made the movie alone (you can't trust him with that anymore), but the man knows how to add things that attract fans.

Bashar Teg
he just sucks at taking part in a production without holding sway over everything. i would have preferred him stay on board for collaboration, but nowadays he completely lacks the ability to compromise in the creative process. at least as far as star wars goes.

queeq
Oh yeah, we all remember Jar Jar. That attracted a lot of fans.

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by JediRobin23
I'm not totally convinced Han is dead though but probably. Leia didn't seem too upset about his death?

Except Leia completely felt the death in the Force...they wouldn't have included her scene if he didn't actually die.

queeq
Of course he's dead. If the saber didn't kill him, the fall did. And even if that didn't kill him, the implosion of the planet certainly did. It's over guys, Han had a great run and a good death. Let him rest in peace.

JediRobin23
Good point on the Lucas touch. This movie had a lot of the anh stuff. The movie got cooler and better as it went on. However, the storyline or plot was very simple. i don't think Lucas could have made this movie better.

Remember Indiana Jones and the crystal skull....

queeq
I do.

And it's a good thing he wasn't involved this time. It's fan fiction now. Let's enjoy it.

Q99
It didn't have as much worldbuilding stuff as the PT, but I loved the two leads, and Kylo Ren was an interesting villain.


One thing I found odd- the good guy military is still, like, 95% human.

JediRobin23
Good point. Leia felt his death or pain with the force.
Perhaps why she didn't cry was that she is was a force sensitive being. Yoda. "Mourn them do not, miss them do not"

Oh, Rey's flashbacks once she grabbed the lightsaber obviously means she was left on jakku to protect her from the darkside as she's rens brother, or han/leias daughter as well....

Gambler
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
he just sucks at taking part in a production without holding sway over everything. i would have preferred him stay on board for collaboration, but nowadays he completely lacks the ability to compromise in the creative process. at least as far as star wars goes.

Yes, they sort of told him to piss off. I think he still can contribute as long he's not allowed to control everything, because he's not actors' director. But he knows how it is to feel SW.

Originally posted by queeq
Oh yeah, we all remember Jar Jar. That attracted a lot of fans.
Forget Jar Jar, he wasn't really that relevant to the story, just an idiotic character Lucas created for kids and cash. He had that bad habit to add silly childish moments. I might as well call Ewoks in ROTJ, but ROTJ was still very good, near damn prefect. Despite the damn Ewoks. And Ep I-III although deficient and mediocre had that SW feel to them, somewhere. Don't forget the music! This movie didn't have any of it. ROTS had duel of fates and many more. What did this have?

This movie was still good. No green screen bullshit, cold characters or sleepy atmosphere. 1st part of the movie was especially good. But it failed at explaining the political situation in the Galaxy. A New Hope did that in couple of sentences.

BruceSkywalker
great film.. excellent film..

hearing kylo as Han's son wasn't a surprise but I loved hearing it... Seeing Luke at the end made me so happpy

Sith Master X
Very nice review Queeq. Certainly fair and balanced, which is much appreciated.

I haven't seen it yet. I will probably go to an early morning viewing sometime next week when I can avoid crowds. Going on opening night and feeding off the energy and hype of other people can take any movie and make it better simply because of the crowd energy. You clap and cheer at things you wouldn't otherwise do if you were watching it with only a few other people. I don't want my initial viewing to be skewed because of crowd energy.

Having said that, the positive reviews are a good sign, but hard to tell whether it's just initial hype factor or if it really was that good. Initial reactions to ROTS was that it was the second best SW movie ever made and Lucas had finally redeemed himself. That no longer seems to be the perception of it. I wonder what people will be saying about TFA in 10 years?

Oh well. Still looking forward to seeing it next week.

Discos
ok guys my full quick review (again) and opinions on the force awakens

Ren is not the finished article, we heard he didn't finish the training etc, so it puts him equal with either Luke in Empire or Anikan in Clones. Who trashes a room like a child when things dont go his way.


anyways, as I said before, next chapter should be Skywalker full, him against the New Order?... mmm we'll see

Thank you for the movie JJ, just awesome.

Discos
more on my opinion, Rey is most likely a decent of a Jedi MASTER, no way can she conjure up those force powers so quick unless otherwise - I'm putting my money on NOT being Luke's daughter, stick my neck out on being Obi's grand daughter, you never know!

Chewbacca needs a slap or a reality check, his best friend for the past 50 odd year died but simply walked past the fallen's ex/ princess and left it to the new girl to explain all. NO WAY!
Exactly the same when Rey/she went to find Skywalker, doesn't matter he's been missing for ages, leia doesn't want to go but hey we we will send this new chick we met 6 hours ago to Luke's secret place.

Sorry for being negative, I love the movie, LOVE IT!
Roll on Skywalker in the next movie plus the new blood, they were amazing. I loved it all.

Discos
Originally posted by JediRobin23
K, Han Solo death hit me went the lightssaber went through him. It was something when ren said "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it". Saw his death coming when he said that, but was still shocking to me. Now it seems supreme leader snoke will have to complete Rens training as he needed to kill his father first. He's a puppet just like Vader was, except this time it's snoke running the strings


Now Snoke must be a sith. Wasn't much explanation of snoke in episode 7 as it's obviously setting up for episode 8.

Oh, what's with the blue lightsaber that belonged to Luke? Luke lost his blue one (originally anakins) in esb when Vader cut Luke's hand off. In episode 6 Luke had a green lightsaber. My guess is that Luke built a new one after episode 6...

Alot you said is right mate, Is Han dead? 90% of me says no but then after the bridge fall, the place blows up so Im sure he's out!

ren is.... well lets just say he is not the finished article, smashing up rooms every time he feels out of control or lost, like a child. We only see Vader do this once at the very end of ROTS.
Ren is equal to Anakin in Clones, or Luke in Empire (even tho Ren seems so much more powerful with stopping a plasma blast). As in training or not becoming a full Jedi/Warrior,


As you can tell I could go on forever with missing plots, like R2D2 being sleeping haha, WE NEED HIM.

Force Awakens, I do love it, going to see it at least 2 or 3 times more before I go back offshore. Roll on episode 8 dudes!

JediRobin23
Originally posted by Sith Master X
Very nice review Queeq. Certainly fair and balanced, which is much appreciated.

I haven't seen it yet. I will probably go to an early morning viewing sometime next week when I can avoid crowds. Going on opening night and feeding off the energy and hype of other people can take any movie and make it better simply because of the crowd energy. You clap and cheer at things you wouldn't otherwise do if you were watching it with only a few other people. I don't want my initial viewing to be skewed because of crowd energy.

Having said that, the positive reviews are a good sign, but hard to tell whether it's just initial hype factor or if it really was that good. Initial reactions to ROTS was that it was the second best SW movie ever made and Lucas had finally redeemed himself. That no longer seems to be the perception of it. I wonder what people will be saying about TFA in 10 years?

Oh well. Still looking forward to seeing it next week.

You haven't seen it yet, yet your in this thread?
I was glad to not have a hyped audeneince when I saw it. My overall general impression of the film, was it started off slow and it did not get me interested until mid film. It got interesting, then I stated liking things about it. The ending well.....I want to see it again to start analyzing it in depth, but overall, was pretty good.

Lots of Star Wars action, but that does not make Star Wars Star Wars. It sets up for episode 8....

BruceSkywalker
Originally posted by Discos
ok guys my full quick review (again) and opinions on the force awakens

Ren is not the finished article, we heard he didn't finish the training etc, so it puts him equal with either Luke in Empire or Anikan in Clones. Who trashes a room like a child when things dont go his way.


anyways, as I said before, next chapter should be Skywalker full, him against the New Order?... mmm we'll see

Thank you for the movie JJ, just awesome.


I believe ep 8 will see Luke train Rey


easily this film is in my top 5 of al time

Sith Master X
Originally posted by JediRobin23
You haven't seen it yet, yet your in this thread?
I was glad to not have a hyped audeneince when I saw it. My overall general impression of the film, was it started off slow and it did not get me interested until mid film. It got interesting, then I stated liking things about it. The ending well.....I want to see it again to start analyzing it in depth, but overall, was pretty good.

Lots of Star Wars action, but that does not make Star Wars Star Wars. It sets up for episode 8....

I'm in the thread indeed. smile I don't mind spoilers. I spoiled myself to death with ROTS and still enjoyed it. haha

JediRobin23
Originally posted by Sith Master X
I'm in the thread indeed. smile I don't mind spoilers. I spoiled myself to death with ROTS and still enjoyed it. haha

Well go see it and let yourself decide...

Gambler
Chewbacca needs a slap or a reality check, his best friend for the past 50 odd year died but simply walked past the fallen's ex/ princess and left it to the new girl to explain all. NO WAY!

My thoughts exactly. I've heard some terrible excuses about the issue from some fans. In reality it's just terrible writing or simply poor knowledge about Han Solo/Chewie duo or SW in general. It's like they're in a hurry to kill off the old Star Wars.

Btw, didn't Luke look like he might have gone mad or, you know, gone to the dark side.

Discos
Hey Gambler,

the dark side? no I dont think so I just think he's a lost soul or living in exile like Obi Wan did, just enjoying his peaceful life.

I'm going to guess he'll go back and Leia will convince him what he has to do and destroy the first order.

Gambler
Originally posted by Discos
Hey Gambler,

the dark side? no I dont think so I just think he's a lost soul or living in exile like Obi Wan did, just enjoying his peaceful life.

I'm going to guess he'll go back and Leia will convince him what he has to do and destroy the first order.
He didn't look like someone, who was enjoying his life. There was some sort of madness in his eyes. Mad hermit.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Gambler
My thoughts exactly. I've heard some terrible excuses about the issue from some fans. In reality it's just terrible writing or simply poor knowledge about Han Solo/Chewie duo or SW in general. It's like they're in a hurry to kill off the old Star Wars.

Btw, didn't Luke look like he might have gone mad or, you know, gone to the dark side. No, he didn't look like he turned to the dark side. He looked lost and troubled.

queeq
Well his whole Jedi training school went to sh!t and his cousin student turned to the Dark Side. Maybe Luke felt he did more harm than gold by training new student. I think that is the look he has.

Originally posted by Gambler

Forget Jar Jar, he wasn't really that relevant to the story, just an idiotic character Lucas created for kids and cash.

You forget: "Jar Jar is the key to all this." It is JarJar who gives Palpy his emergency powers... How can you say he is not relevant? Lucas made him relevant. Simply because he is in it and has a part to play in bringing the Empire into existence.

And JarJar and the Ewoks and Dex Dexter and 3PO in the robot factory swapping heads... all that IS George Lucas without any restraint from great professionals around him. People like that with something to say were around with ANH and ESB, less so with ROTJ. And non-existent in the PT. "It's so dense, every shot has so much going on."

quanchi112
I agree he felt like maybe he did more harm than good but avoiding this new enemy and their oppressive ways is moronic. Luke has always been such a pacifist. At least Kylo brings back some badassery to the family.

queeq
Oh I agree. Luke would have been better off to stay.

But then, we don't know what happened. Maybe Kylo ran off with Snoke and they started a hunt for him. Maybe to protect his family (Leia, Han, the Resistance) he fled to someplace no one could find him.

I suspect this something that probably will be made clear.

JediRobin23
The force awakens???

Why did they call the movie that?

I mean, why for such an extravagant term when the force was stronger in the other episodes....

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by JediRobin23
The force awakens???

Why did they call the movie that?

I mean, why for such an extravagant term when the force was stronger in the other episodes....

The Force awakens inside Rey.

Raptor22
Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
Finns meat saber awakens inside Rey. fixed

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by JediRobin23
The force awakens???

Why did they call the movie that?

I mean, why for such an extravagant term when the force was stronger in the other episodes....

unfortunately we have to wait until ep8 to know for sure what it means. snoke mentions an awakening to kylo. i can only take it to mean 1-the force has somehow become more amplified throughout the galaxy, 2-the living force is affecting the galaxy in some way, or 3-luke using the force in some powerful way for the first time since kylo's turn.

though for #3 im accustomed to it being referred to simply as a 'disturbance', so im betting 1 and/or 2.

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by Raptor22
fixed

No, that's Episode XXX.

BackFire
Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
The Force awakens inside Rey.

I'd like to awaken my force inside of Rey.

I'll let myself out.

Kurk
I just got back from the theater...I want two hours of my life back.

I honestly didn't think Disney would milk the ANH & RotJ cows again.

What is the obsession with the progressively larger lasers blowing up planets; I mean cmon, be original already.

Plot was super dry

I must give props for amazing graphics & animation

Kylo Ren's lightsaber still pisses me off. Also, what's with the raging crap when he doesn't get what he wants? Makes the sith look super immature. Ren is one joke of a sith; was this really the best they could do? 7th sister outclasses him. He seems to have a high potential in the force though.

Poor Han; of all the characters...

Did I mention POOR, over dramatized acting?

I don't really have much to say atm. Disney disappointed with this one.

Force Awakens outclasses TPM and AotC but not RotS and originals.

*sigh*

Kurk
And the cute jokes didn't need to be in there but I'll let it slide since it's Disney.

NewLanceWindu
Yeah, c'mon Lucas! You already pulled that shit in ANH, why is there another Death Star in Jedi?! According to this, Lucas himself was unoriginal from the beginning.



It worked great. They even showed how he can use the crossguards to his advantage while the main blade was locked in combat. IE, stabbing Finn's shoulder.



The raging was great. He's not in control of his temper. Honestly, this is how Anakin should have been portrayed in Ep II and III. You do not want to f*ck with this psycho.

Ren is NOT Sith. He's not even fully trained yet, as said by Snoke himself.



Harrison wanted Han to die in ESB, he got the death he wanted. This action will reverberate through the rest of this trilogy. A son murdering his own father in cold blood. There is no redemption from that. Kylo is going to grow from here on out.



Now I believe you didn't even see the movie. Even some of the harshest critics out there have nothing but praise for the wonderful acting from the cast. So much better than the crap in the PT.



Star Wars has always had small cutesy jokes littered throughout. At least it's not the fart/poop jokes we got in TPM.

|King Joker|
Anakin's emotional outbursts were actually pretty scary in the context of the film, IMO. Butchering all of those Sand People to avenge his mother definitely gave the psycho, unstable vibe, but I also found him struggling to contain his darker feelings pretty interesting and his struggle to be the perfect Jedi he was striving to be. Even though it (obviously) wasn't executed the best way, I think the general concept of what George was going for was pretty solid. Better than Anakin just spazing out on computer consoles with his lightsaber whenever he got angry, at least.

Gambler
Yeah, c'mon Lucas! You already pulled that shit in ANH, why is there another Death Star in Jedi?! According to this, Lucas himself was unoriginal from the beginning.

You're not taking on the Original Trilogy, are you? He wasn't being unoriginal. That actually made sense. Nobody has ever complained about DS 2. ROTJ had an original story besides the Death Star 2.

Also, did you see the size of Starkiller base/planet? This is one of those instances, where bigger simply doesn't work. Face it, it was a form of rehash. After so many years it is the best those fanboys could come up with? Is Hollywood or sci-fi world in dire need of good writers?

Despite these setbacks the movie was executed rather well. I liked Rey's story, but the main story got a bit boring towards the end (felt like deja vu). Even ROTJ had a task force of rebels attacking the imperial base on Endor. This had just Han, Chewbacca and a rookie ex-stormtrooper. The resistance was poorly depicted, they attacked Starkiller base with a handful of X-wings and actually destroyed the whole planet? There were signs of plot holes and they raised questions, of course. The technical part of the movie was good. If only those beautiful dogfights had a better story to back them up. The battle of Maz Kanata's castle and actually that whole location felt unnecessary. Maybe Luke's importance in all this will be explained, because now I don't see how an aging Jedi master can fit into all this, unless there's more to his abilities, Snoke (stupid name) and the Force in general.

Gambler
And they killed Han Solo. The most disappointing thing about it was that it felt like a casual death. I didn't buy father-son relation. It felt forced. They picked a wrong actor to play Kylo Ren, and Kylo Ren himself is a weak antagonist.

I think Han Solo deserved a better demise. In a space battle?

Bardock42
I'm sorry, but the only thing that would make logical sense from now one is bigger, hopefully less flawed, death stars and death planets and death solar systems. Because there's just no reason why any dark sider would ever be like, "You know what...I don't want a super weapon".

quanchi112
Darksiders will always favor power which is what makes them greater than the Jedi IMO. First Order looks to be a badder force than the imperial forces portrayal wise one film in.

Kurk
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Anakin's emotional outbursts were actually pretty scary in the context of the film, IMO. Butchering all of those Sand People to avenge his mother definitely gave the psycho, unstable vibe, but I also found him struggling to contain his darker feelings pretty interesting and his struggle to be the perfect Jedi he was striving to be. Even though it (obviously) wasn't executed the best way, I think the general concept of what George was going for was pretty solid. Better than Anakin just spazing out on computer consoles with his lightsaber whenever he got angry, at least.
Yeah I get what you're saying; destroying your own equipment isn't exactly helping your cause. They could've had him channel his anger more productively.

BruceSkywalker
Originally posted by Gambler
And they killed Han Solo. The most disappointing thing about it was that it felt like a casual death. I didn't buy father-son relation. It felt forced. They picked a wrong actor to play Kylo Ren, and Kylo Ren himself is a weak antagonist.

I think Han Solo deserved a better demise. In a space battle?


Disagree, Ham had to die so Rey could se it

Gambler
Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Disagree, Ham had to die so Rey could se it

Except for the job he offered here, they had no other emotional connection. There was no time to establish it. His death did not mean that much to her.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by Kurk
Yeah I get what you're saying; destroying your own equipment isn't exactly helping your cause. They could've had him channel his anger more productively.
you're suggesting he should have thrown a raging tantrum in a more rational way?
how? by choosing instead to detroy a medical lab like vader?
since when do sith/darkside jedi care about hardware or think clearly when in a rage?
i thought that's what the darkside seduction is all about.

queeq
Originally posted by Gambler
And they killed Han Solo. The most disappointing thing about it was that it felt like a casual death. I didn't buy father-son relation. It felt forced. They picked a wrong actor to play Kylo Ren, and Kylo Ren himself is a weak antagonist.

I think Han Solo deserved a better demise. In a space battle?

I don't get the casual death thing. Other have mentioned it. The power of the scene is actually before Han steps out and calls Ben. You see him wondering if he should do something and you see it's his last desperate act as a father to do something. So getting killed came as a surprise to him. But it was probably something Kylo had wanted to do for a long time. Hardly anything casual about it, if you ask me.

And Kylo has got more depth than Vader had in ANH. Kylo is an immature person with a lot of power. That makes him interesting, makes him dangerous and unpredictable. I wanna see more of him. So unlike PT Anakin who was always angry and blamed other people. PT Anakin was not immature, he was mentally disturbed as we see him AOTC and ROTS. Someone who's got a few wires loose in the upstairs server room.

Nope, Kylo is way more interesting than PT Anakin.

Bashar Teg
furthermore, han was the one who told everyone they had to go back and bomb the place.
the other heroes were well ready to flee, so there was his last act of heroism.
just happened before he died instead of the cliche wet dream of him crashing the falcon into some key target and sealing victory. yawn.

queeq
That would have been terribly cliche.

No, I think Han got a good death. He was never the MAIN character of the OT. He got wonderful shots/setting where he was killed and he fell nicely. It's basically an OB1 death.

Bashar Teg
kinda echoed old ben's abrupt end. nobody was ever like "wow what a glorious death".

queeq
Indeed. And Han Solo did have the OB1 role in this movie.

Gambler
Originally posted by queeq
I don't get the casual death thing. Other have mentioned it. The power of the scene is actually before Han steps out and calls Ben. You see him wondering if he should do something and you see it's his last desperate act as a father to do something. So getting killed came as a surprise to him. But it was probably something Kylo had wanted to do for a long time. Hardly anything casual about it, if you ask me.

And Kylo has got more depth than Vader had in ANH. Kylo is an immature person with a lot of power. That makes him interesting, makes him dangerous and unpredictable. I wanna see more of him. So unlike PT Anakin who was always angry and blamed other people. PT Anakin was not immature, he was mentally disturbed as we see him AOTC and ROTS. Someone who's got a few wires loose in the upstairs server room.

Nope, Kylo is way more interesting than PT Anakin.

Vader didn't need depth. What matters is the voyage. If a character's depth serves the voyage then add that depth, but if it's not necessary, then why bother? Vader was the dark lord. He didn't need depth in ANH. We knew everything we had to know from his actions.

Also what's with these comparisons with PT?

Han Solo was an iconic character. There was no sense of loss after he was killed by supposedly his own son. Both of their stories had barely been established when Han was erased.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Kurk
Yeah I get what you're saying; destroying your own equipment isn't exactly helping your cause. They could've had him channel his anger more productively.

I guess he could kill high ranking admirals, those are easy to come by after all, much cheaper than some consoles.

Bashar Teg
for all we know it was just the coffee maker

coolmovies
why does kylo ren wear a mask does he really need it ?

Bashar Teg
he's the ultimate darth vader fanboy.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess he could kill high ranking admirals, those are easy to come by after all, much cheaper than some consoles. Especially because it'd make him feel more connected with his grandfather. Vader loved killing his admirals.

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by coolmovies
why does kylo ren wear a mask does he really need it ?

Intimidation mostly.

Ushgarak
Ok, FINALLY seen it- trying to organise my friends these days is tricky.

Liked it a lot. Bit too much OT-styled Abrams fan-service (and yes, another planet-killing weapon is not the way I would like to have seen it) but I can live with all that- a reasonable enough plot, a well-realised villain, some good emotional moments, the sabre fights were pretty good (Abrams' comments had worried me there but he found a good middle ground between OT and PT, and Ren losing was reasonable in context) and, overall, it didn't cock anything up in the ways I was fearing it might.

In the first four lines, it mentioned Jedi needed for the balance of the Force, which means- whatever else may happen or wherever it goes- they've kept that central part of what Lucas wanted in the PT.

Han Solo dying was great emotion- set up well, executed well, meaningful for the story. The only thing that annoys me about it structurally is Han never meeting Luke. That said- no body. We'll see.

Now they have a lot to live up to, because we need a more character-focussed second part to go into the many mysteries left (who is Snoke, what happened with Ren, who is Rey and why was she abandoned, what's the full deal with Luke, and so on and so forth)- and presumably we have to have the bad guys come out on top, ESB style. Difficult to get right.

All in all, happy.

Sith Master X
Just came back from it.

It moved really, really fast. At some point characters felt like they were talking over one another. It also felt like they were going from location to location in split seconds.
I honestly had a hard time following it. I think I left with more questions than answers.

I'll need another viewing before I can digest everything. The action was great though.

Sinious
Originally posted by NewGuy01
My most major complaints:

1.) The force's portrayal, and how it was treated/discussed by the characters
2.) The pacing in general
3.) The repeat Death Star plot, and how little it seemed to matter. I.E I felt nothing but disappointment when SK blew up.
4.) Rey's insane, out of nowhere lightsaber mastery and super cheesy oneness moment.

thumb up I would add Finn being a match for Ren to that though.

queeq
Watched its gain today. Got a little milder about the sabre fight. For one, Finn doesn't really stand a chance again Kylo. He gets hammered, Kylo takes it easy, gets surprised with one blow (underestimated Finn's resolve).

In the Rey fight, she actually gets drive back most of the time. And... Kylo doesn't want to kill her because ehe has to bring her back to Snoke. So here too he's hurt (twice) and he tries to breng Rey back alive. That she actually beats him, cutting across his face was maybe a bit too much. Maybe it would have been better if the canyon that formed would have ended the fight. But heck, the fight was good, gritty, two people just hacking away at each other. It works.

And by seeing it again: the pacing is fine. This movie has so much going for it, I will forgive a lot.


Originally posted by Gambler
Vader didn't need depth. What matters is the voyage. If a character's depth serves the voyage then add that depth, but if it's not necessary, then why bother? Vader was the dark lord. He didn't need depth in ANH. We knew everything we had to know from his actions.

Also what's with these comparisons with PT?

Han Solo was an iconic character. There was no sense of loss after he was killed by supposedly his own son. Both of their stories had barely been established when Han was erased.

Vader didn't need depth in ANH, agreed. But he did get quite a bit op depth in ESB. To make a villain like that last, he has to have some depth. And we're in EPVII now, we've come a long way in the SW stories, I think bringing a character that already has some range and depth is just great. Kylo Ren is the type where things have to get a lot worse before it gets better. In Vader's case, he was at his worst in ANH. Meeting his son began to change him.
In Kylo 's case, killing his dad was the beginning of his real decent into the Dark Side. Same kind of story, different starting point.

JediRobin23
Originally posted by Sith Master X
Just came back from it.

It moved really, really fast. At some point characters felt like they were talking over one another. It also felt like they were going from location to location in split seconds.
I honestly had a hard time following it. I think I left with more questions than answers.

I'll need another viewing before I can digest everything. The action was great though.

Oh, it left with questions all right.....

Didn't Luke look cool at the end...

queeq
A bit sad, though...

Bashar Teg
that's what makes my own theories on luke a bit doubtful. he had a look as if he had spent the last 20 years praying that nobody would ever find him, including rey, yet there's evidence to speculate that luke deliberately left a trail to the ancient temple.

queeq
Or maybe he got caught by surprise as he was taking a leak off that mountain cliff and he wasn't done yet.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Sinious
thumb up I would add Finn being a match for Ren to that though.



I just think that whole Saber fight shouldn't have been in the movie. There was no one in this movie to challenge Ren, so don't force a Saber fight with him into it just for the sake of it.

But they wanted to sell it for the marketing. And the marketing for this has certainly paid off.

queeq
Yup. And it was nicely done. So I can live with it. I could live with the PT... I can CERTAINLY live with this.

At least I know what the fight was about. I never got what the fight between Maul, OB1 and QGJ was about.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by queeq
I never got what the fight between Maul, OB1 and QGJ was about.

it had all the depth and chemistry of a tom and jerry cartoon.

Ushgarak
That was a good ol' script re-writing problem (same reason Luke's story in ROTJ becomes essentially pointless to the film plot as the Death Star blows up anyway- it was originally somewhere else).

Maul was guarding the ground-based droid control unit in the early TPM script, but when they moved that out they forgot to give Maul a decent point.

queeq
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That was a good ol' script re-writing problem (same reason Luke's story in ROTJ becomes essentially pointless to the film plot as the Death Star blows up anyway- it was originally somewhere else).

I seem to remember this was explained by arguing that Palpy was so focussed on Luke that he lost control of the battle outside. But, yeah, this was a Raiders thingy. (Ya know: if Indy hadn't done anything at all, the outcome would have been the same. laughing out loud )


Originally posted by Ushgarak
Maul was guarding the ground-based droid control unit in the early TPM script, but when they moved that out they forgot to give Maul a decent point.

Yeah, when Lucas started taking free reign rom ROTJ on, things started to slip. In case of TPM, they did need the toy commercial though. wink

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by queeq
I seem to remember this was explained by arguing that Palpy was so focussed on Luke that he lost control of the battle outside. But, yeah, this was a Raiders thingy. (Ya know: if Indy hadn't done anything at all, the outcome would have been the same. laughing out loud )

not exclusive to just raiders. it's an indy thingy. like, if he chose to just be a postal worker, nobody would have been in any danger.

ares834
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That was a good ol' script re-writing problem (same reason Luke's story in ROTJ becomes essentially pointless to the film plot as the Death Star blows up anyway- it was originally somewhere else).

How is that? Luke was able to drag Anakin all the way to a shuttle and even able to have a breif conversation. I'm sure Palpatine would have been easily able to escape as well.

queeq
laughing out loud

Well, to me, Raiders is a masterpiece. It Lucas' and Spielberg's North by Northwest: it's about nothing but boy, what a ride.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by ares834
How is that? Luke was able to drag Anakin all the way to a shuttle and even able to have a breif conversation. I'm sure Palpatine would have been easily able to escape as well.

On what? Is it an invulnerable, invisible shuttle? The Empire lost the whole battle, somehow. The Emperor was boned. The Rebels didn't need Luke at all.

People can speculate about what might have happened otherwise, but you're not meant to have to speculate; the film should make the stakes clear. Maul probably would have killed Padme if the TPM fight hadn't happened but it's not up front and centre. These things work better with a very direct and clear connection as to what outcomes can be changed.

And when you look at the draft process for ROTJ, it all becomes clear- the victory over the Empire was meant to be a combination of the Death Star destruction and, simultaneously, Luke/Anakin defeating the Emperor at the Imperial capita. They combined the two and forgot the stakes.

ares834
The Rebellion won but that doesn't mean they destroyed every single ship there. Imperial Shuttles also have hyperspace capabilities. Palpatine escaping the battle is a very real possibility.

Ushgarak
You're getting increasingly speculative there. No Imperial ship was seen to escape as is and the Rebels seemed to have total control of the area. They could have blown away every ship leaving. After all, blowing up the Death Star with the Emperor on it was actually the Rebel's plan. "Bye bye, Mr. Emperor" goes Wedge. Story over.

They;d won the war. That was it. The Emperor didn't have a plan beyond 'win the battle'- there was nothing in particular for Luke to stop. It wouldn't have taken much to give some shenanigans for Luke to shut down, but there was nothing there.

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