Why was Rey able to defeat the injured Kylo ?

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redpill
Why was Rey able to defeat the injured Kylo ?

kylo was trained by luke and snoke, and killed luke's jedi students.

rey was a scavenger with no force training and did not even think jedi was real she never used a lightsaber prior to her fight with kylo.

she was earlier easily defeated by kylo

is Rey stronger in the force? kylos injury? or is kylo conflicted or weak? or did rey tap the dark side?

Galan007
Originally posted by redpill
is Rey stronger in the force? kylos injury? This.

queeq
What does it matter?

redpill
Originally posted by queeq
What does it matter? what does anything in star wars matter? rolling on floor laughing

redpill

juggernaut74
My own personal theory is that she was being trained as a Jedi at the time Ben went nuts and killed the Jedi. She survived and was taken to Jakku by Luke or somebody else. And of course had her mind wiped. This doesn't explain how she was able to take down an injured Ben but it makes sense on how she was able to use the force.

queeq
Originally posted by juggernaut74
And of course had her mind wiped.

laughing out loud 3PO was her dad?

chilled monkey
Watch this. He explains it perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOws3DgdxPY

This guy has actual weapons training and studies HEMA. He knows what he's talking about.

Incidentally TFA had the best lightsabre duels yet.

Lord Lucien
When I got out of bed this morning I thought to myself "Hey, let's overanalyze a simple fantasy film".


So I logged on here, but then I got bored.

queeq
I agree.

And the OT had the most realistic.

juggernaut74
OT had the most realistic PT has the most entertaining.

queeq
I dunno. I prefer the ESB and ROTJ fights. Because they are more meaningful.

The PT fights are more ballet and twirling and dancing. A bit boring because of that.

juggernaut74
Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon and Kenobi is one of my favorites followed by Sidious vs Mace.

juggernaut74
Anakin vs Obi-Was probably the best imo looking back on it.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon and Kenobi is one of my favorites followed by Sidious vs Mace. Maul's fight is okay, a bit too much spinning/twirling. But a few kicks and elbows help make it feel more real.

Both of the Sidious fights are just awful. I can feel the CGI leaking through the screen. It gives me focus. Makes me critical.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Anakin vs Obi-Was probably the best imo looking back on it. Meh. It felt physical at times, but the length and ridiculous setting drained the immersion.

redpill
i like kylo vs rey and fin most

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Anakin vs Obi-Was probably the best imo looking back on it.

http://i.imgur.com/UKjvUYh.gif

The Tarzan swinging while falling over a lavafall...

The bit where they're standing on top of those droids scooping up lava...

They took what should have been an awesome emotional battle and turned it into a cartoon fight. They didn't need to go all over Mustafar for it to be an epic duel.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by queeq
I agree.

And the OT had the most realistic.

Yes, but TFA had the best. Not the same thing at all.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
PT has the most entertaining.

Not even remotely.

Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
The Tarzan swinging while falling over a lavafall...

The bit where they're standing on top of those droids scooping up lava...

They took what should have been an awesome emotional battle and turned it into a cartoon fight. They didn't need to go all over Mustafar for it to be an epic duel.

Originally posted by queeq
The PT fights are more ballet and twirling and dancing. A bit boring because of that.

Precisely.

queeq
Oh I'm fine with the TFA fight. Nice and gritty. It looks and feel like a real fight. (unlike the sterile, choreographed dances in the PT).

Kinda funny, I read into some martial arts/swordfight/kendo experts. And most say that fighting with a weapon that causes such damage as a lightsaber would probably lead to a very careful, probing kind of fight (basically what you see in ANH). The reason for that is that it doesn't take much physical force to cut someone or take out a limb. So the major aim would be not to expose yourself and look for the little moments (in an attack from the enemy for instance) where there's some exposure in the opponent.

But they also say, if you look at the PT fights, the fighters expose themselves all the time with all the twirling and swirling. So irony has it: we get this ballet to see the Jedi in their prime and yet, as sword fighters they are the worst ever. I find that kinda funny.

Bashar Teg
Originally posted by NewLanceWindu
http://i.imgur.com/UKjvUYh.gif

The Tarzan swinging while falling over a lavafall...

The bit where they're standing on top of those droids scooping up lava...

They took what should have been an awesome emotional battle and turned it into a cartoon fight. They didn't need to go all over Mustafar for it to be an epic duel.

unts unts unts unts unts unts unts unts unts unts

queeq
laughing out loud

juggernaut74
I agree with Mace Windu.

http://www.cinemablend.com/m/new/Samuel-L-Jackson-Big-Issue-With-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens-104077.html

Lord Lucien
"Even before The Force Awakens hit theaters, director J.J. Abrams told us to expect something more along the lines of what we saw rather than highly skilled duels. He called them "primitive" and "aggressive and rougher" than their predecessors, less about skill and more about emotion."

ares834
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I agree with Mace Windu.

http://www.cinemablend.com/m/new/Samuel-L-Jackson-Big-Issue-With-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens-104077.html

Agreed.

Those prequel duels were great. Especially SLJ's duels.

http://media.fyre.co/vLHBPZBJTeqVqhjO9kZ6_giphy.gif

Beautiful.

Galan007
But then you have shit like this:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltkp4dpeVB1r03eggo1_500.gif

sick

ares834
In case it wasn't clear, my post was sarcastic. stick out tongue

queeq
I don't get it. They didn't make much sense as FIGHTS... they did kinda make sense as a lightsaber dances. The twirling and swirling doesn't make any sense with a lethal weapon like that.

I don't see Sam swirling and twirling his pistols in the Hateful 8 or Pulp Fiction. Reminds me of that wonderful scene in Tombstone where Ringo (played by Michael Biehn) tries to show how good he his with pistols by doing all this twirling with his guns. And Doc Holiday (Val Kilmer) then makes fun of him by doing a similar twirling with his metal whiskey cup...

That's what this debate is about to me when it comes to the lightsaber fights: Ringo (PT) vs. Doc Holiday (OT and TFA). Another western reference to add to this is from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: when you wanna shoot, shoot, don't talk. Or... if you wanna fight, fight. Don't twirl and swirl.

cdtm
Those "boring" original trilogy duels actually looked like, you know, duels.

Not choreographed dancing.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by queeq
Oh I'm fine with the TFA fight. Nice and gritty. It looks and feel like a real fight. (unlike the sterile, choreographed dances in the PT).

Kinda funny, I read into some martial arts/swordfight/kendo experts. And most say that fighting with a weapon that causes such damage as a lightsaber would probably lead to a very careful, probing kind of fight (basically what you see in ANH). The reason for that is that it doesn't take much physical force to cut someone or take out a limb. So the major aim would be not to expose yourself and look for the little moments (in an attack from the enemy for instance) where there's some exposure in the opponent.

But they also say, if you look at the PT fights, the fighters expose themselves all the time with all the twirling and swirling. So irony has it: we get this ballet to see the Jedi in their prime and yet, as sword fighters they are the worst ever. I find that kinda funny.

Very true.

Ushgarak
This is all going back to discussions we had 15 years ago about the prodding...

But I still like the PT fights. The Maul fight and the first half of the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight (before it lost its oomf when it went to a CG outside arena) are fantastic. I'm not really on-board with the twirly criticism- it's just an element of style (and that gif of them twirling at each other is a poor criticism- that's part of a style duel, and trying to criticise sabre duels as unrealistic is plain silly). I've liked sword twirling ever since it was Connor's signature style in Highlander.

They are immensely well choreographed and highly skilled. The FA fight was not at all bad- in the same way I liked the Windu duel as something different, this one had a lot of physicality to it- but I didn't like it as much as those on those PT ones and I don't agree with Abrams at all about that approach being wrong. I think people are over-doing this 'dancing' metaphor- Maul was like that, and that;s fine as his signature,, but when Obi-Wan and Anakin go at it, the odd twist around does not make it dancing; it's just very fast swordplay. It still amazes me.

In fact, one of the biggest issues with the PT fights is not the fights themselves but how badly cut they are with other material- they work much better viewed as a whole, which you can do on Youtube (though that does accentuate the Obi-Wan-Anakin duel losing pace).

So- I am all on board with the new films doing the fights differently- it's good to have a distinct style and these aren't all super-trained masters etc.- but I think it is a shame to see the PT fights being trashed on some of the grounds I have seen. I rate them as a great achievement. I'm actually hoping it will go a bit more in that direction in the next two films.

-

It's the same way I have always liked the stylised posing in The Matrix, no matter how silly it is, practically speaking, I bring this in because this comes back to the topic. Rey is able to beat Kylo (and him being injured does make a big difference of course) because she is basically doing a Neo from The Matrix. She's special. She knows how to do things without training. They set that up throughout the film. It's kinda the point.

Darth Thor
^ thumb up

redpill
rey swallowed some of my redpill wink

queeq
Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is all going back to discussions we had 15 years ago about the prodding...

But I still like the PT fights. The Maul fight and the first half of the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight (before it lost its oomf when it went to a CG outside arena) are fantastic. I'm not really on-board with the twirly criticism- it's just an element of style (and that gif of them twirling at each other is a poor criticism- that's part of a style duel, and trying to criticise sabre duels as unrealistic is plain silly). I've liked sword twirling ever since it was Connor's signature style in Highlander.

They are immensely well choreographed and highly skilled. The FA fight was not at all bad- in the same way I liked the Windu duel as something different, this one had a lot of physicality to it- but I didn't like it as much as those on those PT ones and I don't agree with Abrams at all about that approach being wrong. I think people are over-doing this 'dancing' metaphor- Maul was like that, and that;s fine as his signature,, but when Obi-Wan and Anakin go at it, the odd twist around does not make it dancing; it's just very fast swordplay. It still amazes me.

In fact, one of the biggest issues with the PT fights is not the fights themselves but how badly cut they are with other material- they work much better viewed as a whole, which you can do on Youtube (though that does accentuate the Obi-Wan-Anakin duel losing pace).

So- I am all on board with the new films doing the fights differently- it's good to have a distinct style and these aren't all super-trained masters etc.- but I think it is a shame to see the PT fights being trashed on some of the grounds I have seen. I rate them as a great achievement. I'm actually hoping it will go a bit more in that direction in the next two films.

-

It's the same way I have always liked the stylised posing in The Matrix, no matter how silly it is, practically speaking, I bring this in because this comes back to the topic. Rey is able to beat a Kylo (and him being injured does make a big difference of course) because she is basically doing a Neo from The Matrix. She's special. She knows how to do things without training. They set that up throughout the film. It's kinda the point.

Personally, my main problem with the PT fights is that they don't FEEL like fights. The twirling is part of that, but it's all rather emotionless.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by queeq
I don't get it. They didn't make much sense as FIGHTS... they did kinda make sense as a lightsaber dances. The twirling and swirling doesn't make any sense with a lethal weapon like that.

I don't see Sam swirling and twirling his pistols in the Hateful 8 or Pulp Fiction. Reminds me of that wonderful scene in Tombstone where Ringo (played by Michael Biehn) tries to show how good he his with pistols by doing all this twirling with his guns. And Doc Holiday (Val Kilmer) then makes fun of him by doing a similar twirling with his metal whiskey cup...

That's what this debate is about to me when it comes to the lightsaber fights: Ringo (PT) vs. Doc Holiday (OT and TFA). Another western reference to add to this is from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: when you wanna shoot, shoot, don't talk. Or... if you wanna fight, fight. Don't twirl and swirl. http://img.pandawhale.com/post-16561-Indiana-Jones-shooting-gif-xd5h.gif

Originally posted by queeq
Personally, my main problem with the PT fights is that they don't FEEL like fights. The twirling is part of that, but it's all rather emotionless. thumb up

Twirling sword fights are fine, just watch any Chinese kung fu movie. But when the highly polished and stylistic choreography feels like an attempt to cover up the lack of humanity and soul in the characters and the entire film, then the attempt shines out the shittier.

Ushgarak
That's a criticism I'd make for the AOTC fights. But I find that hard to understand at all for the others- I was very emotionally involved with them. I found the tension leading up to Qui-Gon's death to be immense- a good use of visuals and music, preceded by the pause in the fight with the visual behaviour of all three fighters being a great statement of their personalities- the sort of character moment that TPM needed a lot more of. If a criticism of TPM is its poor character portrayal (not an issue for TFA), I personally think the lightsabre fight is one of the few bits that gets that right, so for me it seems the opposite of what you say.

And again, you are saying 'twirly fights'- they are mostly just good swordplay. There's nowhere near as much wushu etc as people seem to make out- that was really just Maul's thing. And Yoda, but I'm not really rating that.

StiltmanFTW
I wonder if Snoke will be using a lightsaber or not.

Or maybe he'll be more like ROTJ Palpatine - relying on the Force instead.

redpill
i thought the dooku vs obi wan and dooku in rots was pretty good.

StiltmanFTW
Too much Obi-Wan jobbing for me.

I'd have preferred if they really had beat him while working together, as their original plan was...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a criticism I'd make for the AOTC fights. But I find that hard to understand at all for the others- I was very emotionally involved with them. I found the tension leading up to Qui-Gon's death to be immense- a good use of visuals and music, preceded by the pause in the fight with the visual behaviour of all three fighters being a great statement of their personalities- the sort of character moment that TPM needed a lot more of. If a criticism of TPM is its poor character portrayal (not an issue for TFA), I personally think the lightsabre fight is one of the few bits that gets that right, so for me it seems the opposite of what you say.

And again, you are saying 'twirly fights'- they are mostly just good swordplay. There's nowhere near as much wushu etc as people seem to make out- that was really just Maul's thing. And Yoda, but I'm not really rating that. Hey if you're emotionally invested that's great. But I feel nothing for the characters and their motivations, so I feel nothing for their fights and their deaths. That moment where Maul and Kenobi stare each other down though was pretty cool. Until it gave way to the rest of the stale, boring swordfight.


And sure, the swordplay is good. It's choreography, it looks cool. But I don't care if it's cool if I don't care about the people making it look cool. But that aside, there's too many moments that look... timed, and careful, and planned. They're flawless, but that makes it feel fake and empty.

Remember when Dooku taunted Anakin during RotS about his anger? And Anakin gives him an angry, determined look, raises his saber above his head and... just sort of attacks him the same way as before: carefully timed and positioned with every swing, but slightly faster, I guess? To show that he's angry? I otherwise kinda like that fight since it's one of the more subdued and understated of the prequels, (not as much of the twirly whirly/jump-happy stuff) but even it has this polished perfectness to its movements that I just don't like. When Vader taunted Luke, Luke snapped and just wailed on him like his sword was a club. I bought that emotion, it felt real. Mad-face Anakin and his sexy, highly-stylized choreography does nothing for me.

Ushgarak
Hmm, well I don't see the fights as looking any more timed or careful than, say, the TFA fight. They're just in what I see as a better style.

And if you didn't care about the characters in the first place, fair enough- but that begs the question, if you DID care about the characters, would you like the PT style?

Luke wailing on Vader is an awesome moment- again, backed well by the music; that moment and the minutes afterwards are the high point of ROTJ and I am not for one moment denying that decent character involvement makes fights better. But I'm honestly not that big on the sabre fight leading up to it (ESB was better). In comparison, I think the exchange of blows between Obi-Wan and Maul after the staredown is the best few moments of sabre duelling in the entire franchise. It's a fantastically designed series of blows (using both blade and body), I am well into Obi-Wan's anger, and Maul's cocky taunting is bang on as well.

That polished perfection for me is straight- perfection in the sense of being very good indeed.

queeq
Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.

Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.

NewLanceWindu
Originally posted by queeq
Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.

Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.

McGregor was always super aggressive in training. He and Hayden broke/bent many of the practice lightsabers. They had them tone it back for the movie.

queeq
Well, it shows...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Hmm, well I don't see the fights as looking any more timed or careful than, say, the TFA fight. They're just in what I see as a better style.

And if you didn't care about the characters in the first place, fair enough- but that begs the question, if you DID care about the characters, would you like the PT style?

Luke wailing on Vader is an awesome moment- again, backed well by the music; that moment and the minutes afterwards are the high point of ROTJ and I am not for one moment denying that decent character involvement makes fights better. But I'm honestly not that big on the sabre fight leading up to it (ESB was better). In comparison, I think the exchange of blows between Obi-Wan and Maul after the staredown is the best few moments of sabre duelling in the entire franchise. It's a fantastically designed series of blows (using both blade and body), I am well into Obi-Wan's anger, and Maul's cocky taunting is bang on as well.

That polished perfection for me is straight- perfection in the sense of being very good indeed. The PT duels have three chief problems:

1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).

Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.

It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.



It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT duels have three chief problems:

1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).

Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.

It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.



It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day. Iyo not mine.

queeq
Iyo?

Well, even the ROTS fight had its problems: overlong, very weird moments (twirly-whirly duel, hand force lock, swinging from ropes, jumping from flying mini-robot to other mini-robots and... only one emotion, ergo no dynamics).

Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Ushgarak
(I still say no).

And you're most likely right about that...

Because, iirc, Samuel L. Jackson himself wanted Mace to have a really nice feat before his death... a nice performance... that's what I read. Originally, Lucas wanted him to job to Sidious like everyone else.

Darth Thor
One big reason the result of that fight causes confusion is because Yoda lost to Palpatine, and we're told/ implied throughout the trilogy (and by out of Universe commentary) that Yoda's the most Powerful Jedi combatant.

But Yoda's fight was just very different to Mace's fight, so that's neither here or there, especially when it's in the same movie where Obi-Wan beats Anakin who beats Dooku who beats Obi-Wan.

And The other big reason the result of the Mace/Palpatine fight has always seemed questionable to people is because it worked out so perfectly for Palpatine that you can't help but wonder if he planned the whole thing.

queeq
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.

That's a pretty good analysis.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by quanchi112
Iyo not mine. Mine's actually worth something.

Originally posted by queeq
Iyo?

Well, even the ROTS fight had its problems: overlong, very weird moments (twirly-whirly duel, hand force lock, swinging from ropes, jumping from flying mini-robot to other mini-robots and... only one emotion, ergo no dynamics). Exactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here. I hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt.

Trocity
Both trilogies had good/bad things about their duels.

Kenobi's molasses speed spin in ANH wasn't anything to write home about.

Lord Lucien
Nope, it wasn't a visually impressive fight. Kinda sucked for action. And if that's all that was judged by it would rightfully hold bottom score.



Thank god everybody knows there's more to a sword fight outside of the fact that they're swinging swords at each other. Right? Guys?

red8
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey if you're emotionally invested that's great. But I feel nothing for the characters and their motivations, so I feel nothing for their fights and their deaths. That moment where Maul and Kenobi stare each other down though was pretty cool. Until it gave way to the rest of the stale, boring swordfight.


And sure, the swordplay is good. It's choreography, it looks cool. But I don't care if it's cool if I don't care about the people making it look cool. But that aside, there's too many moments that look... timed, and careful, and planned. They're flawless, but that makes it feel fake and empty.

Remember when Dooku taunted Anakin during RotS about his anger? And Anakin gives him an angry, determined look, raises his saber above his head and... just sort of attacks him the same way as before: carefully timed and positioned with every swing, but slightly faster, I guess? To show that he's angry? I otherwise kinda like that fight since it's one of the more subdued and understated of the prequels, (not as much of the twirly whirly/jump-happy stuff) but even it has this polished perfectness to its movements that I just don't like. When Vader taunted Luke, Luke snapped and just wailed on him like his sword was a club. I bought that emotion, it felt real. Mad-face Anakin and his sexy, highly-stylized choreography does nothing for me.

thumb up x 1000

A lot of people criticize that scene in RotJ because it looks like Luke is just swinging a baseball bat, but that's probably my favorite scene in all of the Star Wars movies.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mine's actually worth something.

Exactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.

I hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt. No, your opinion clearly isn't. Just remember you don't speak for anyone other than yourself.

queeq
I dunno... I totally agree with Lucien. So you're wrong there, quanchi!

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by red8
thumb up x 1000

A lot of people criticize that scene in RotJ because it looks like Luke is just swinging a baseball bat, but that's probably my favorite scene in all of the Star Wars movies. It's almost cathartic, even after 50 watches.

queeq
Excellent stuff.

Bentley
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul.

I have always thought it's meant to be the same movement.

queeq
The OB1 Movement?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Darth Thor
One big reason the result of that fight causes confusion is because Yoda lost to Palpatine, and we're told/ implied throughout the trilogy (and by out of Universe commentary) that Yoda's the most Powerful Jedi combatant.

I have never understood why that should cause any kind of confusion.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
we're told/ implied throughout the trilogy (and by out of Universe commentary) that Yoda's the most Powerful Jedi combatant.

So what? Power isn't everything.

Yoda only lost due to circumstances/environmental factors. They were fighting on an elevated position, there was a big blast of Force energy and Yoda was thrown over the edge because he's smaller. Simple common sense.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It especially when it's in the same movie where Obi-Wan beats Anakin who beats Dooku who beats Obi-Wan.

It completely baffles me why anyone would have any problem with that.

Look at the World Cup. Brazil beat a team that Germany only got a draw against. Yet when Brazil played Germany Brazil was soundly thrashed. Does that confuse people?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by chilled monkey




Yoda only lost due to circumstances/environmental factors. They were fighting on an elevated position, there was a big blast of Force energy and Yoda was thrown over the edge because he's smaller. Simple common sense.


That can be seen when you analyze it more deeply. But on the face of it, Yoda and Palpatine looked equal, whereas Mace looked > Palpatine.

And like I said, it wasn't just the way the fight went. It was how Palpatine used the situation to turn Anakin, and how it all ended so perfectly for him.

I'm not saying Palpatine threw the fight btw. I'm just saying there's plenty there to confuse people.


Originally posted by chilled monkey

Look at the World Cup. Brazil beat a team that Germany only got a draw against. Yet when Brazil played Germany Brazil was soundly thrashed. Does that confuse people?


A boxing example would have been better since we're talking about 1 v 1's here and not 11 vs 11, where there's 11 different player's to take into account.

Ushgarak
My favourite comparison is tennis- in boxing, you do get people with absurd, near-undefeated streaks sometimes. With tennis, upsets are so common that they aren't really upsets any more- all you can ever call is who you think has an advantage based on the weather, the court type, the style of his opponent etc.

From Laver to Borg to McEnroe to Sampras to Federer, there was never any such thing as 'x always beats y'.

Bashar Teg
amazing how the thread title answers it's own question.

queeq
laughing out loud

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That can be seen when you analyze it more deeply. But on the face of it, Yoda and Palpatine looked equal, whereas Mace looked > Palpatine.

And like I said, it wasn't just the way the fight went. It was how Palpatine used the situation to turn Anakin, and how it all ended so perfectly for him.

I'm not saying Palpatine threw the fight btw. I'm just saying there's plenty there to confuse people.

Yeah, I see your point in that regard.


Originally posted by Darth Thor
A boxing example would have been better since we're talking about 1 v 1's here and not 11 vs 11, where there's 11 different player's to take into account.

That's true but the basic principle is the same; two entities go up against the same opponent. One gets a win and the other doesn't. Yet when they go up against each other the one that had fared better earlier loses.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
My favourite comparison is tennis- in boxing, you do get people with absurd, near-undefeated streaks sometimes. With tennis, upsets are so common that they aren't really upsets any more- all you can ever call is who you think has an advantage based on the weather, the court type, the style of his opponent etc.

Interesting comparison which raises another point. A ring is a pretty standard environment with far fewer variable factors. Outside the ring, as with your tennis example, you have to account for variables such as weather.

Going back to lightsabre duels, you have to account for such variable factors. For example Yoda vs. Palpatine in ROTS. Would the result have been the same if they had fought at ground level? Perhaps, perhaps not, but it certainly affected how the duel went.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
My From Laver to Borg to McEnroe to Sampras to Federer, there was never any such thing as 'x always beats y'.

Precisely.

queeq
There... thread is done.

Q99
I've said it before, a shot to the side is one of the *worst* places to have an injury for a sword duel.

Even an arm would isn't so bad- most of your power comes from your middle. Every torso move and twist, every sway, is at reduced power and speed, and some angles of attack are much harder to do, making him more predictable.


Also there's the matter that she was his *second* fight while dealing with an aggravated injury that he was literally hitting to prevent the muscles from freezing up on him.


I'm sure many of those padawans could've beaten him if he had been shot in the side at the time.

queeq
What padawans?

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