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If God gave humans free will, why does he draw the line at certain things?
Is it conditional free will, because thats not really free, then.
Is this covered in the Bible?

Free will simply means that you can choose your actions, it has nothing to do with liability.

But why would God create a capacity for evil? Or is that part of being created in his image?

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
But why would God create a capacity for evil?
Because it's a requisite for free will.

You can't have a decent adventure story without a clear villain. God understands this, so he created Evil for us to side with or combat. Say what you want about Him, but the Creator knows story structure.

I guess.
As a grand experiment though, this free will seems to come with too many strings attached to be really considered free.

Originally posted by riv6672
As a grand experiment though, this free will seems to come with too many strings attached to be really considered free.
Free will simply means that you are in control of your thoughts and actions.

Originally posted by riv6672
If God gave humans free will, why does he draw the line at certain things?
Is it conditional free will, because thats not really free, then.
Is this covered in the Bible? You're control of your thoughts and actions, God is allowed to make the rules to enter his house. (Heaven)

If you wanna enter his domain, you need to follow his rules.

You don't enter someone's home and go by your own rules, or you'll get thrown out, or won't be allowed to go in at all.

I'm assuming this is the gist of what you're asking.

Kind of.
Suicide got me thinking about it. Bad as it is, it isnt considered the ultimate sin. But i was told its rejecting God.

Originally posted by riv6672
Kind of.
Suicide got me thinking about it. Bad as it is, it isnt considered the ultimate sin. But i was told its rejecting God. Why the **** were you thinking about suicide?!

There are many kinds of suicide, as far as I know, the side of it that is frowned upon by christians is considering that life is not Worth living and that things cannot get better. But of course, that assumes that you actually had a saying in those strong feelings that you somehow allowed to be overcomed by them (there is so much chemistry in our brains that you can legitimately ask when our good judgement starts).

The analogy would be the people who are disgusted by overweight fellows, those who see it as a voluntary thing, a kind of weakness (a poster in the forums used the expression "easy greed" that can be seen as a flaw of character. Technically there can be a bunch of reasons to being overweight, but fat people are often bandwagoned as unwilling to fight their weight progression. Saying that suicide is a sin against God assumes lots of things about the mentality of the person, it's really a question of motive (even though the "life is not yours to take" that comes from regular killing is also an element in the equation).

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why the **** were you thinking about suicide?!
Haha, i was going to ask why suicide, specifically, was any of God's business, but decided to broaden the subject.

Originally posted by riv6672
Haha, i was going to ask why suicide, specifically, was any of God's business, but decided to broaden the subject.
God doesn't prevents anybody from committing suicide or does he?

Originally posted by riv6672
Haha, i was going to ask why suicide, specifically, was any of God's business, but decided to broaden the subject. Well, its not. But it is if you're thinking about entering HIS domain of Heaven. God is basically our parent, and he's laying down the law by saying "Yeah, you can do all that shit... But you are NOT doing it in my house, you live under my roof (or cloud, in this case), you live under my rules."

I've also heard that since Life is a Gift, destroying it is like insulting the people who gave it to you. I see that argument as a sentimental oversimplification, but it sort of rhymes with other things subscribed by the scripture. For example, the tale of the talents implies that people are on Earth to partially fructify what God gave to them so any kind of cop out, including self-destruction, would be against what God wants from people.

In those terms, suicide would be still very different depending on the situation, because the same parable mentions that the servitors come from different starting points, letting us to assume that we will be wanted for the things we were given and not in some ratioless objective measure.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Well, its not. But it is if you're thinking about entering HIS domain of Heaven. God is basically our parent, and he's laying down the law by saying "Yeah, you can do all that shit... But you are NOT doing it in my house, you live under my roof (or cloud, in this case), you live under my rules."

Originally posted by Bentley
I've also heard that since Life is a Gift, destroying it is like insulting the people who gave it to you. I see that argument as a sentimental oversimplification, but it sort of rhymes with other things subscribed by the scripture. For example, the tale of the talents implies that people are on Earth to partially fructify what God gave to them so any kind of cop out, including self-destruction, would be against what God wants from people.

In those terms, suicide would be still very different depending on the situation, because the same parable mentions that the servitors come from different starting points, letting us to assume that we will be wanted for the things we were given and not in some ratioless objective measure.

Gotcha.
But in regards to suicide, no one asked us if we wanted a gift, or if we wanted to come into anyone's house. We were given no choice.
Not saying i believe in suicide, i dont, i'm just wondering out loud/asking for opinions on arguments i've run across recently on God's perceived unfairness.

Through life we are often responsible for things that weren't our choice, there is nothing particularly surprising about the unsavory idea of having to "deal with it" when it comes to our own responsability in life.

Not sure i follow.
Just saying, what got from what i read, and the gift comment above, is, if you get a crappy present it doesnt mean you have to use it/keep it.
Screwed up way to condone suicide, but, again what business is it of God's?

Originally posted by riv6672
Gotcha.
But in regards to suicide, no one asked us if we wanted a gift, or if we wanted to come into anyone's house. We were given no choice.
Not saying i believe in suicide, i dont, i'm just wondering out loud/asking for opinions on arguments i've run across recently on God's perceived unfairness. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "God's business" then.

You have a choice between heaven and hell.

Is that what you mean?

Originally posted by riv6672
Not sure i follow.
Just saying, what got from what i read, and the gift comment above, is, if you get a crappy present it doesnt mean you have to use it/keep it.
Screwed up way to condone suicide, but, again what business is it of God's?

The "Gift" part is an argumentation that I don't take to the letter, as I said, in the Scripture there is this tale about being responsible with what you have and making the most of it.

I brought up Choice to tune in with your reply, my argument around it is that you aren't solely responsible for things you choose. In some cases saying stuff like "I didn't ask for this Gift" doesn't strip you from responsability, that works in a case to case basis.

Weird. Okay.

Originally posted by riv6672
Weird. Okay.

Yes, just like we don't get to choose every freedom, we don't get to dismiss every responsability. We are f*cked by all the sides

If life is a gift it is not one we asked for. We didn't ask to be created. I wouldn't have a problem with the biblical God if he wasn't such an utter tool, and that is putting it nicely.

What we do isn't his business. Just like there comes a point where a parent no longer has a say in what their child does, once the child is grown.

It's might makes right. That is what it comes down to. He has super powers and will use them to torture and kill us to teach us a lesson. Or he might use them to reward us as well. He will cause natural disasters and send plagues at people just to make a point. He will destroy entire cities if he deems them as too sinful. This is not a stable being we are dealing with. When you combine super powers with bi polar disorder the results are apparently quite devastating.

So what makes god psychopathic is that he claims his kills? He could as easily kill many more people and not manifest at all, he'd be the same kind of jerk if not more.

What makes him psychopathic is that he thinks flooding the entire world or nuking entire cities are viable solutions to problems.

Originally posted by Surtur
What makes him psychopathic is that he thinks flooding the entire world or nuking entire cities are viable solutions to problems.

When it comes to Biblical accounts I'm pretty sure that old religion leaders are at least a bit to blame when it come to establishing tradition. They probably were so in awe with power that they did not see Religion as any kind of morality.

I can picture a sea of people chanting "god is great because he destroyed our enemies and massacred their children", because back in the day the mentalities were aggresive and xenophobic like that.

Originally posted by Astner
Because it's a requisite for free will. no? "God" created everything, including human limitations. I can't levitate, but i could murder, rape ect.

Why would God create that.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
no? "God" created everything, including human limitations. I can't levitate, but i could murder, rape ect.

Why would God create that.

Levitate rape would skyrocket, whole races would've been wiped out because of it.

Originally posted by Bentley
When it comes to Biblical accounts I'm pretty sure that old religion leaders are at least a bit to blame when it come to establishing tradition. They probably were so in awe with power that they did not see Religion as any kind of morality.

I can picture a sea of people chanting "god is great because he destroyed our enemies and massacred their children", because back in the day the mentalities were aggresive and xenophobic like that.
Thats good stuff, thanks!

Without the ability to choose, we aren't people at all are we?

Is it any of your 'business', as the dreamer, what the people in your dreams do?

Originally posted by Bentley
When it comes to Biblical accounts I'm pretty sure that old religion leaders are at least a bit to blame when it come to establishing tradition. They probably were so in awe with power that they did not see Religion as any kind of morality.

I can picture a sea of people chanting "god is great because he destroyed our enemies and massacred their children", because back in the day the mentalities were aggresive and xenophobic like that.

The problem though is that you have people who believe in the bible as is, as opposed to "this is just some stuff some crazy people wrote down". Which is why religion can be so scary a being like this would be worshipped by modern day people.

So no matter where it came from, some people believe these things happened and *love* the being that perpetrated these acts.

Originally posted by Mindship
Is it any of your 'business', as the dreamer, what the people in your dreams do?
I sometimes dream about God.

Originally posted by riv6672
I sometimes dream about God.

This is appropriate, because he only exists in the minds of humanity.

Originally posted by riv6672
I sometimes dream about God. Do you get to ask any questions?

Mostly, we bowl. Seriously, its a recurring dream.

Originally posted by riv6672
Mostly, we bowl.

My grandma always said whenever you hear thunder God is bowling.

Mine did too, in spanish.

I was told (by my grandfather) thunder was God speaking.

"What's he saying?" I would ask.
"No one knows," was the answer...

...which (in my little-boy mind) only added to the awe of it all.

I was always taught not to mumble.

I always mumbled as a child. People could never hear me when I'd first say something. I'd always have a tendency to look at the ground too so basically I always looked guilty. I remember in 3rd grade my teacher took me aside and called me a "shit starter" for this. I remember even at the time finding it weird.

You should've mumbled like God. I bet that would've stained her undies.

I know, or I should of been like "yeah a shit starter, but it beats killing babies like God, right?".

She would have slapped you across your shit-starter face.

It's possible, though I never did see anyone get hit with a ruler or something like they used to do back in the day.

Yep, they used to beat young kids with sticks for acting up, because religion!

Originally posted by Surtur
Yep, they used to beat young kids with sticks for acting up, because religion!
No. Because they used to chastise children because it was considered standard disciplinary conditioning. It had nothing to do with any religion.

Originally posted by Astner
No. Because they used to chastise children because it was considered standard disciplinary conditioning. It had nothing to do with any religion.

Ah, but good christians should of recognized it was abhorrent behavior, correct? Or should religious people just go with the flow, regardless of how it matches up with the shit they spout?

I wasn't actually trying to say it is a religious practice, though I can see how it was taken that way. I was making fun of the fact religious people were beating children. Especially if the reason boils down to "it was the thing to do in those days".

Originally posted by Surtur
I wasn't actually trying to say it is a religious factor. I was making fun of the fact religious people were beating children.
It looked more as if you were whining. Either way it's a moot point because it's not a behavior exclusive to religious people; nor does it conflict with any wide-spread religious decrees as far as I'm aware.

Spare the rod, spoil the child, is that a religious expression?

Originally posted by riv6672
Spare the rod, spoil the child, is that a religious expression?

If the rod in question is meant to be a metaphor for penis, then it certainly sounds religious 131

I'd say that was hilarious but i'm still under oath.

Originally posted by riv6672
Spare the rod, spoil the child, is that a religious expression?

Proverbs 13:24
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son:
but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+13%3A24

Excellent, thank you!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Proverbs 13:24
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son:
but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.


Hey Blue.

It's believed that the proverb is the inspiration for that quote, but the quote itself comes from "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler.

If matrimony and hanging go
By dest'ny, why not whipping too?
What med'cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy by poets stil'd
Then spare the rod and spoil the child
I'd include link to the full poem but I havent't posted enough to be trusted with links.

Originally posted by Astner
It looked more as if you were whining. Either way it's a moot point because it's not a behavior exclusive to religious people; nor does it conflict with any wide-spread religious decrees as far as I'm aware.

But nobody was whining. Merely commenting on something I found amusing. Nor did anyone ever say it was exclusive to religious people, so we can nip that in the butt as well. It was an offhand comment.

Originally posted by riv6672
Spare the rod, spoil the child, is that a religious expression?

I wonder how spoiled the first borns in Egypt felt.

Originally posted by 55iopy
Hey Blue.

It's believed that the proverb is the inspiration for that quote, but the quote itself comes from "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler.

If matrimony and hanging go
By dest'ny, why not whipping too?
What med'cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy by poets stil'd
Then spare the rod and spoil the child
I'd include link to the full poem but I havent't posted enough to be trusted with links.
Very cool.

Finally got around to reading the whole thing.
55iopy needs to post more often.

Originally posted by riv6672
Finally got around to reading the whole thing.
55iopy needs to post more often.

Indeed, and someday I'd like to hear her background, for she seems to know a lot about literature. I frankly used to wonder if she might not be the anonymous handle of my mom, for we live miles and miles apart, and see each other only on holidays or special occasions, and KMC is not something I can remember us 2 ever talking about. Mom, like Iopy, also has the manner of an instructor and mentor to younger people, and for good reason.

Age is right. "Voice" when writing is resonant. The musings are what I'd expect... Suffice to say, rare though her postings are, there is no one on this board more strangely familial than Iopy.

Actually, I'm content not knowing for the present. Either she isn't, and is a poster altogether enjoyable and resonant despite our not actually knowing each other in real life outside the realm of the Internet, or she is in fact who perhaps 10% of me thinks she actually might be.
In which case I'd better make darn sure I don't post here on any more holidays!

(Wouldn't do to have her think she's a better detective than me ...)

There is not such a thing like free will, just the illusion of it. We think we do everything because of our free will but we fail to see the things that influence us to do what we do because of intransparency in our systems and/or lack of knoledge. Even if we do notice it from time to time, we rather lie to ourselves, convince ourselves that we want it, so we don't have to deal with the consequence of free will.

^^^Not buying that particular bit of philosophy.

@Stoic
Thanks for the post and link.

I still think it's not anyone's business what we do unless our activities are actively endangering someone.

God doesn't even live here, so I really don't feel he should have any say in anything. When we become a threat to the universe itself then he can step in. When I say "here" I mean on the planet, so it's not like I'm saying nobody has a right to say anything about stuff that happens in other parts of the world.

You and i are of like mind, then.