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What do you think?

I would say there's a fair chance to that.

I think he'll be remeemed.

I hope he isn't.

Very probable. It's Star Wars and Disney after all.

Yeah well, who knows what plans they have for a new sequel trilogy after this one.

I have no idea, but I do hope they will break new story ground in the next two movies.

Dunno! He killed his own father. As dark as Vader went, he never killed a family member. He clearly still cared for Padme, & had no desire to kill Luke. I doubt he would have killed Shme if she had been alive by that time either. I know that we do seee conflict in Kylo Ren, but he may well be going further & further into the darkside to the point where he's ireddemible. Also, we've already had a Villlain redemption ark with Vader. Do we really need another one? I don't want this trilogy to overly mimic the OT. As it is, Episode VII seems awfully similar to Episode IV.

Originally posted by queeq
Yeah well, who knows what plans they have for a new sequel trilogy after this one.


I hope there won't be a 4th trilogy. At least not for a very long time...

But if they do, who knows? Maybe it'll be about Rey & Finn's kids being trained in the ways of the force.

Originally posted by batman
Dunno! He killed his own father. As dark as Vader went, he never killed a family member. He clearly still cared for Padme, & had no desire to kill Luke. I doubt he would have killed Shme if she had been alive by that time either.

So Vader's a baddie with principles now? Vader slaughtered children, Tusken children and Jedi children. I don't think one can actually put these two on scales and judge who is worse...

Yeah since when is being a relative the ultimate pinnacle and standard of morality and temptation? Sure, I personally massacred an entire village. Sure, I betrayed my entire organization, ideology, comrades, best friend, and wife. Sure, I butchered the f*ck out of a group of defenseless small children. Sure, I stood by (and helped) while a tyrannical monster took over the galaxy. Sure, I was totally cool watching an entire world being obliterated and killing billions of people. Sure, I'm the walking embodiment of all that is wrong with mankind.


But I didn't kill my dad, so that makes me the lesser of two evils.

Of course he will be. Darth Vader was redeemed after decades and decades of being a Sith Lord even after atrocity piled upon atrocity.

So what? That wasn't the point. The point was that Kylo didn't deserve to be redeemed because he killed is dad.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah since when is being a relative the ultimate pinnacle and standard of morality and temptation? Sure, I personally massacred an entire village. Sure, I betrayed my entire organization, ideology, comrades, best friend, and wife. Sure, I butchered the f*ck out of a group of defenseless small children. Sure, I stood by (and helped) while a tyrannical monster took over the galaxy. Sure, I was totally cool watching an entire world being obliterated and killing billions of people. Sure, I'm the walking embodiment of all that is wrong with mankind.


But I didn't kill my dad, so that makes me the lesser of two evils.

See, this throwing around the word 'redeemed' is always something I am wary of- not because of the concept, but because of how people often use it. Some parts of the EU treat redemption like a heel/face turn in wrestling, where a bad guy can put his past aside and now start hitting for the good guys.

But that's such gibberish. Take Vader- say he lived in ROTJ. What then? Well, I would imagine he would be at the centre of vast war crimes trials for the unimaginable evils he has perpetrated, and no amount of 'I brought Balance to the Force' would change any of that. He'd get the death sentence or life in jail.

Redemption is obviously a good thing but it would leave a broken and forever haunted person who would never be allowed to be active in the galaxy again. Yoda's 'forever will it dominate your destiny' line resonates truly.

Dramatically speaking, Vader dying there was the best thing that could happen. Although not literally required for redemption, all things considered, redemption = death. He had to die for it to work. He had no life left after that anyway.

So here we are again with Kylo. Sure, he might redeem- but that's his destruction. He can't go with any sort of life on after all he's done.

In the end, there is no moral redemption for any of these people. The only reason we can talk of redemption at all is because Force Users have a cosmic variable- their force alignment. But that's such a vague thing to try and define from just a person; it has to be matched by some sort of super-deed to show the shift, so what this basically amounts to is "What good thing will Kylo do before he dies?"

I would like to see him go light and still be tried or something in-universe.

If Vader had survived, he would have made amends for his errors, facing the -deserved- hate from those he helps and fighting for balancing the force even further. Of course, he could not probably become a family man after what happened to him, but his redemption is, narratively speaking, possible. Because Vader after all, is a valid character.

Kylo is phucked though.

How? Who would trust him? If they'd let him live at all.

No, I have to agree with Ush on this one. I don't think Vader redeemed himself fully. But he did redeem himself for his son. After all, he's the only one he actually spared. I think cutting off Luke's hand may have been a way to stop the fight without killing Luke. But yeah, his death was necessary.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

So here we are again with Kylo. Sure, he might redeem- but that's his destruction. He can't go with any sort of life on after all he's done.

Nope, but he might take Snoke with him or something. Who knows..

I would like for them to go into a different direction than what they did with Vader. Vader had to die in his redemption but there's a chance that Kylo Ren could live in redemption. He kills Snoke and whoever Ben Toro's character is that pulled the strings on Kylo and the Knights of Ren and ends up living through. I believe that he can be redeemed but they shouldn't duplicate Vader on him.

P.S. Another way Kylo Ren can be redeemed is through Leslie Jones. Leslie Jones taught Kylo Ren how to use the calcinator in the SNL Undercover Boss version of Force Awakens and she also had a bad temper like he did. Somewhere in Episode 8 or 9 they encounter each other and go at it for a while but then Leslie Jones taps into her inner white girl(Reese Witherspoon) and it calms them both down and Kylo Ren is able to come to himself as Ben Solo and keep balance in the force.

I think it would be a bit unfair to Leia, who has lost her parents, her planet and her husband to the dark side, to now lose her son as well tbh.

Life's unfair.

Indeed, so, and no matter what happens to Ren, Leia's already seen him become a genocidal mass murderer; that can't be undone.

I think 'Kylo takes out Snoke' is probably the easiest way for a redemptive end, but despite TFA I'd be surprised if they copy the OT quite that much.

I think Snoke has to be Rey's purpose, anyway.

The other thing to think about with Ren- unless Rey does turn out to be related- is what becomes of the Skywalker line. As far as we know right now, Ren is all there is. There's a number of dramatic possibilities there.

My worst fear is that Kylo will sacrifice himself to destroy Snoke.
I really hope he sticks to the dark path all the way through.

He's such a terribly written character right now; they need to do something to improve his storyline and motivations.

I disagree about him terribly written. I think he's fine. He's an emo, yes, but I think he's a baddie fitting to our time. Emo's what we have a lot of these days, why not turn one into a baddie?

And yes, Kylo taking out Snoke would be the copy cat method. Again: I hope they do take SW into a fresh new direction. I don't mind the repetitions in TFA, as I consider it a soft reboot. But now they have to move on... they really do.

So, I hope they will surprise us in where these characters will go. At least they didn't kill off Kylo in the first episode.

Personally, I'd prefer it if Ren gets redeemed and suffers through the consequences of his actions, just to mix it up a bit.

The idea of Anakin turning to the darkside because of some mistaken idea of saving the one he loves while ben turns to the lightside to save someone he lpves appeals to me. He's the first character in Star Wars movies who'd killed a relative. I'm kinda interested to see where it would go, and hopefully not just a copy paste of the last two trilogies.

That is something we all hope.

Originally posted by queeq
Life's unfair.

Moreso, the people and conditions in life are unfair.

Originally posted by queeq
How? Who would trust him? If they'd let him live at all.

He could be on the run and save those rightful avengers from falling to the dark side he only knows too well. As I said, if he was to live, he'd make up for his crimes not live a peaceful life nor staying in prison/getting executed (which is pretty much what happened).

Think Angel from the Buffyverse, that guy was a cruel mass murderer in his time.

Angel never chose evil; he was possessed by a force which then made him do evil things. Anakin actively chose to embrace dark forces.

You can't 'make up' for crimes of that scale. It would be exceptionally wrong for him not to face justice. The only morally acceptable outcome would be appropriate punishment, which if redeemed he would submit himself to.

Dramatically, dying is much better. That's why redemption = death; the character's story arc is dead anyway at that point.

Indeed.

Originally posted by red8
My worst fear is that Kylo will sacrifice himself to destroy Snoke. Mine's nuclear war, but to each his own.

Originally posted by red8
I really hope he sticks to the dark path all the way through. Boring. We're probably gonna get that from Snoke, we don't another main character being evil through and through. Self-doubt, temptation, confusion, resistance, and te possibility for change make for interesting narratives and dynamics. Static characterization is ungodly dull.

Originally posted by red8
He's such a terribly written character right now; they need to do something to improve his storyline and motivations. No, Anakin was a terribly written character. Kylo is a very average character. Simple direction and straight forward. Was good, went bad, fights doubts, motivation to be revealed next film. They can't blow every wad this early in the new franchise.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Dramatically, dying is much better. That's why redemption = death; the character's story arc is dead anyway at that point. Boromir agrees.

So does Harry Osbourne. And Snape.

Good show!

I hope Snoke is redeemed first. I would get really choked up.

I bet you will...

Perhaps Kylo will pull an Obi-Wan and live off in seclusion for the rest of his life. It'd be fitting.

Hmmm.. another one? Luke's copied that already.

So did Yoda.

True... but they came up with the idea together.

Just like they came up with the idea of completely forgetting about Leia. Point is, plans gotta change sometime.

Ermm.... yes. The point is...?

Kylo can go off into Exile with Luke or whatever. Plans change, and obviously aren't that well planned out anyway. Obi-Wan forgot an entire person. Like a person that contracted him directly.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Angel never chose evil; he was possessed by a force which then made him do evil things. Anakin actively chose to embrace dark forces.

Angel does remember the pleasure he felt by inflicting pains to others, and if he truly considered himself acquited from his actions he wouldn't be pursuing redemption. Any quest for salvation assumes there is a big fault, the biggest the fault the deepest the need for expunging one's sin.

Vader's demise was "easy" in comparison.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You can't 'make up' for crimes of that scale. It would be exceptionally wrong for him not to face justice. The only morally acceptable outcome would be appropriate punishment, which if redeemed he would submit himself to.

The saga disagrees since he was redeemed and came back as a force ghost. There wasn't any "appropiate" punishment and death was just a short punishment compared with the continued task of "making amends".

Punishment isn't always justice. If offing Anakin will end up in the galaxy being torn into war, then Anakin is responsible for the potential danger he inflicts to civilization by "giving himself" in. In that case, facing "justice" is blalantly ignoring his responsabilities and is immoral.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Dramatically, dying is much better. That's why redemption = death; the character's story arc is dead anyway at that point.

The outcome it's ok, I'm not dissing the saga for what happened, I'm pointing out that there were other possibilities that make for engaging storytelling. It's not as if ancient mythology didn't have many stories about Fallen heros that went on living after commiting atrocities.

Usually as blind hermits.

Originally posted by Bentley
Angel does remember the pleasure he felt by inflicting pains to others, and if he truly considered himself acquited from his actions he wouldn't be pursuing redemption. Any quest for salvation assumes there is a big fault, the biggest the fault the deepest the need for expunging one's sin.

Vader's demise was "easy" in comparison.



The saga disagrees since he was redeemed and came back as a force ghost. There wasn't any "appropiate" punishment and death was just a short punishment compared with the continued task of "making amends".

Punishment isn't always justice. If offing Anakin will end up in the galaxy being torn into war, then Anakin is responsible for the potential danger he inflicts to civilization by "giving himself" in. In that case, facing "justice" is blalantly ignoring his responsabilities and is immoral.



The outcome it's ok, I'm not dissing the saga for what happened, I'm pointing out that there were other possibilities that make for engaging storytelling. It's not as if ancient mythology didn't have many stories about Fallen heros that went on living after commiting atrocities.

What Angel remembers is not really relevant- the fact remains that it wasn't him that actually did it, so the moral situation is completely different. In any case this is not a Buffy forum.

I don't think the saga disagrees with me because I outright specified how we can talk about redemption for Anakin in one aspect only, of where he is with the Force. That he died on the Light Side and so gets the ghost treatment in no way at all wipes out his past crimes, which still remain the reason he pretty much had to die to redeem. The new film makers clearly agree, considering the conflicted nature of Anakin's spirit that they were discussing for inclusion. And he did get what he deserved- he died for it, and his legacy will be that of a person remembered for bringing death, fear, hate and evil. Justice is well served- he didn't get away with anything, he faced it and paid the needed price.

Punishment may not always be justice, but in this case I find the idea that a mass genocidal murderer should escape punishment just because he later repented hard to accept, and any situation where Anakin facing justice could bring greater evil is too absurd to consider.

So we remain at the same point. In a story like this, redemption = death and there was no other reasonable dramatic possibility for Anakin at all in the story.

Right. Guess we can wrap this up.

That scene where Anakin and Buffy lightsaber duel on the roof of Sunnydale is my favourite in the film.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't think the saga disagrees with me because I outright specified how we can talk about redemption for Anakin in one aspect only, of where he is with the Force. That he died on the Light Side and so gets the ghost treatment in no way at all wipes out his past crimes, which still remain the reason he pretty much had to die to redeem.

Nothing will erase Anakin's past crimes.

I just brought Angel in to mention there is an actual story to be told about acting upon redemption, which is appealing and deep whether or not it's "about justice" in-universe.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The new film makers clearly agree, considering the conflicted nature of Anakin's spirit that they were discussing for inclusion. And he did get what he deserved- he died for it, and his legacy will be that of a person remembered for bringing death, fear, hate and evil. Justice is well served- he didn't get away with anything, he faced it and paid the needed price.

He "just" died, he got off easy considering his conscience lives on. He was already physically and mentally broken so it was almost a pity kill. Justice is only served here because death is considered a "harsher" punishment than life.

There was this bit of illumination from Vader where he came back to the Light Side of the Force, but he did not have the chance to act on it, so it's like a last minute faith turn. Serviceable from a storytelling perspective, but not the end of all things.


Originally posted by Ushgarak
Punishment may not always be justice, but in this case I find the idea that a mass genocidal murderer should escape punishment just because he later repented hard to accept, and any situation where Anakin facing justice could bring greater evil is too absurd to consider.

He could have stopped the First Order from rising by catching them early enough and saved several planets, among other things. The possibilities are in the stories you can tell from there.

Also we have historical figures that were genocidal murderers and went to become enlightened rulers in they later day. I can see how it can be hard to swallow in our current set of values, but that's because they held political power through their lives and we perceive it as an injustice.


Originally posted by Ushgarak
So we remain at the same point. In a story like this, redemption = death and there was no other reasonable dramatic possibility for Anakin at all in the story.

We remain the same: self-imposed storytelling contraints are self-imposed. Possibilities are abound.

I thought we were done...

Sorry, Bentley, but that;s just insanely speculative stuff with no real storytelling logic behind it (and my last comment on Angel- the point remains that if the character we see in Buffy had actually done those crimes, the entire story wuld not work; he'd not be a credible or relatable character on-screen. It only works because he feels guilt for things he didn't actually do, so he can be morally forgiven. Anakin DID do it all).

Anakin could have stopped the First Order? Where the heck is that logic? Why him and not, say Luke- which makes far more sense, and of course did not work out? Just because you can imagine it, that does not make it an idea of any value. I may as well say if Anakin had lived maybe magic space pixies would have come and kept Kylo on the light side. You are making completely arbitrary ideas to try and justify a weak and illogical story position. Like I said- absurd. Likewise absurd is you trying to bring ancient rulers and some sort of statement on modern morality into it. You've kinda lost the plot there.

Sorry, your ideas there are just bad. The only thing self-imposed here is that Vader's redemption and death needed to be handled in a good way.

Keep it simple and sensible. Redemption for great evil = death. Trying to fudge it any other way in a film setup like this will not work. It's more than serviceable- it is dramatically appropriate and, moreover, inevitable. I think dismissing it as 'serviceable' shows a mis-understanding of the genre and the logic of the story.

Probably.

He'll be redeemed. He's going to stand up to Snoke and live, maybe even pull a few of his friends out of the Knights of Ren, escape the dark side and make his way to "Zihuatanejo".

honestly I could care less if Kylo is redeemed or not..dude was weaksauce, he got his ass beat by a washed out stormtrooper and a desert wanderer who learned about the Force earlier that afternoon...But for the sake of discussion, no I don't think he will; he's already feeling the "pull" of the light side, it'd be way too cliche and predictable for him to succumb to that.

Well, it is SW after all. A fairy tale with a happy ending. It's not 'let's get uberdark with nothing but brooding characters like in SvB"...

I doubt Kylo will redeem himself. I think it will be a twist and he won't be Vader 2.0.

Cute.



I have no problem with Kylo going through all of that. My favorite part of Kylo's story so far was the guilt/self-doubt he felt right after his father died. He can have his trials, but that doesn't mean he has to choose the light-side in the end.



From what has been presented to us so far, Kylo Ren's only motivation is to become as powerful as Darth Vader. So from what we know so far, Kylo Ren betrayed his family, betrayed the Jedi, and helped destroy multiple planets only because he wants to one day become as strong as Vader. I'm sorry, but that's incredibly lazy writing.



Agreed, they don't need to spell everything out right away or even ever, but they need to give us a reason to care about the character. I'm pretty sure the next movies will flesh him out to be a great villain, but the way they presented him in TFA was a disappointment.

He better not redeem himself.

It'd be nice if he didn't. I wanna see a fallen hero go out unrepentant in his darkness.

Yes, we enjoy seeing you around.

He can be redeemed; the first nights are the toughest. No doubt it. They marched him in naked as the day he was born. Skin burning and half blind from the dark side thrown at him. When he came in contact with his father, took off his mask and made his stab to him to see his father fall for death, that's when we knew it was for real. His old life was blown in the blink of an eye. Nothing left but all the time in the world to think about it. He lost the Jedi Council, He lost his family, only the darkness to comfort him. He came to madness that night, any short fuses he had in the past were replaced by the grief of his father's death, left only with the destiny to come to Skywalker and make his way through the tunnel to find the light and gain redemption.

Errrr....

Originally posted by atv2
He can be redeemed; the first nights are the toughest. No doubt it. They marched him in naked as the day he was born. Skin burning and half blind from the dark side thrown at him. When he came in contact with his father, took off his mask and made his stab to him to see his father fall for death, that's when we knew it was for real. His old life was blown in the blink of an eye. Nothing left but all the time in the world to think about it. He lost the Jedi Council, He lost his family, only the darkness to comfort him. He came to madness that night, any short fuses he had in the past were replaced by the grief of his father's death, left only with the destiny to come to Skywalker and make his way through the tunnel to find the light and gain redemption. You're cut off for the week.

Hehehe...