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Thing with the mephisto amp vs World Breaker Hulk

Who wins?

What did Thing do? He did halt Galactus for a bit but he didn't do anything to him. Am I missing something?

Secret wars vol II

Except for Mephisto and Death. Thing defeats all this characters single handed

http://media.emmafrostfiles.com/comics/images/secret-wars-ii-07.jpg.700x1000_q90.jpg

Such art....

http://s5.postimg.org/isa6fb2j7/secret_wars_ii_07_jpg_700x1000_q90.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/85lf700pf/secret_wars_ii_07_jpg_700x1000_q90_1.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/SecretWarsII007-21_zps0f06ab4d.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/SecretWarsII007-22_zps702f223b.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/SecretWarsII007-23_zps89db8abc.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/SecretWarsII007-25_zpsbfec9aec.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Such art....

http://s5.postimg.org/isa6fb2j7/secret_wars_ii_07_jpg_700x1000_q90.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/85lf700pf/secret_wars_ii_07_jpg_700x1000_q90_1.jpg SWII is renowned for its artwork...

http://i.imgur.com/jZ1LuIA.png


http://i.imgur.com/EhqR27i.png
http://i.imgur.com/LCElMmx.png

lol true and it's great story

This art is atrocious.

I remember Thing from that part of the story arc; if I remember correctly, Things strength was amped x100...

So x100 Thing vs WBH...

If we apply real world physics to WBH's feats, then WBH wins, but comic portrayal beats real world physics that dont apply to the comicbook world...

Based on this logic, SW2 Thing wins...

Juggernaut took him out in a single hit. Jugs wouldn't even hurt WBH. Hulk stomps.

Originally posted by carver9
Juggernaut took him out in a single hit. Jugs wouldn't even hurt WBH. Hulk stomps.

That was after the amp was taken back by Mephisto ripping up the contract...

Originally posted by carver9
Juggernaut took him out in a single hit. Jugs wouldn't even hurt WBH. Hulk stomps.

This proves that you don't even read the scans, you don't know how to read or you have poor comprehension skills. Which one is it?

The scans posted shown Mephisto breaking contract and Thing returning to normal levels right before the juggernaut.

While Thing was amped by mephisto he was wrecking house.

Thing should win this one

The interesting thing about this part of the story is the revelation of just how powerful Mephisto is; if he can casually give Thing the strength to wreck all the villians on Earth at once, then Mephisto himself could do so as well..

The only thing holding Mephisto in check is his desire to get their souls; Mephisto cant get them by killing or by force...a soul has got to be given to him freely and willingly.

This fact is the only thing keeping Marvel Earth from falling to Mephisto, otherwise nothing short of Franklin Richards is stopping him...

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
This proves that you don't even read the scans, you don't know how to read or you have poor comprehension skills. Which one is it?

The scans posted shown Mephisto breaking contract and Thing returning to normal levels right before the juggernaut.

While Thing was amped by mephisto he was wrecking house.

Thing should win this one

I'm including all. You posted that part so I included it. Anyways, Ben increasing a hundred folds still doesn't put him on normal Hulk level strength wise. Not enough of an increase for a class 90, especially back then. Ninety percent of those people were fodder anyways. Hulk miss punch kills Thing and almost everyone else out there that he faced. Calm down and buy you a drink so that you can get your feelings out of these comic book characters.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm including all. You posted that part so I included it. Anyways, Ben increasing a hundred folds still doesn't put him on normal Hulk level strength wise. Not enough of an increase for a class 90, especially back then. Ninety percent of those people were fodder anyways. Hulk miss punch kills Thing and almost everyone else out there that he faced. Calm down and buy you a drink so that you can get your feelings out of these comic book characters.

Yeah your brain is too small for reading comprehension skills. I notice a pattern

Also don't lie, you didn't read the scans or you are too stupid to comprehend, that is why you made your silly comment of Juggernaut defeating the Thing and brushed as if was nothing.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The interesting thing about this part of the story is the revelation of just how powerful Mephisto is; if he can casually give Thing the strength to wreck all the villians on Earth at once, then Mephisto himself could do so as well..

The only thing holding Mephisto in check is his desire to get their souls; Mephisto cant get them by killing or by force...a soul has got to be given to him freely and willingly.

This fact is the only thing keeping Marvel Earth from falling to Mephisto, otherwise nothing short of Franklin Richards is stopping him...

True. I agree.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Yeah your brain is too small for reading comprehension skills. I notice a pattern

Also don't lie, you didn't read the scans or you are too stupid to comprehend, that is why you made your silly comment of Juggernaut defeating the Thing and brushed as if was nothing.

Lol...you're famous for calling someone a liar. Do you need my shoulder friend. Seems like you are emotionally detached right now.

Lol...anyways, a much weaker Hulk took on a being that wad amplified 100 folds pass Hercules strength and beat it. Hulk took on Wendigo and Bi Beast and both were amped a thousand folds and he beat them with ease. Bi Beast is stronger than Ben by far and Wendigo is as well. WWH stomps Ben, adding in World Breaker makes this spite.

Cry some more in your next post.

Originally posted by carver9
both were amped a thousand folds That's a lot of folds.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's a lot of folds.

Lol...stop. I'm debating from my phone.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...you're famous for calling someone a liar. Do you need my shoulder friend. Seems like you are emotionally detached right now.

Lol...anyways, a much weaker Hulk took on a being that wad amplified 100 folds pass Hercules strength and beat it. Hulk took on Wendigo and Bi Beast and both were amped a thousand folds and he beat them with ease. Bi Beast is stronger than Ben by far and Wendigo is as well. WWH stomps Ben, adding in World Breaker makes this spite.

Cry some more in your next post.

Nah you are wrong as usual.

No surprise though your reading comprehension skills are lacking

Thing wins.

He actually defeated A listers not 3rd rate villains,, he did it single handed and basically one two shot alot of them.

Don't feel bad though I don't think many can beat a Mephisto amped Thing

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Nah you are wrong as usual.

No surprise though your reading comprehension skills are lacking

Thing wins.

He actually defeated A listers not 3rd rate villains,, he did it single handed and basically one two shot alot of them.

Don't feel bad though I don't think many can beat a Mephisto amped Thing

WWH stomps him with ease. Doc Green pulls a 10/10 with a Lil difficulty and Thing pulls a majority against Grey Hulk. Savage Hulk has fought against a more powerful team while weakening.

Originally posted by carver9
WWH stomps him with ease. Doc Green pulls a 10/10 with a Lil difficulty and Thing pulls a majority against Grey Hulk. Savage Hulk has fought against a more powerful team while weakening.

You don't even know anything.

Thing pulls majority vs grey Hulk?

Lol

You mean pineapple thing not normal thing.

Also show me hulk defeating a more powerful team than the one Thing defeated.
Lol Hulk has even trouble dealing with absorbing man. How is ww hulk or doc defeating this team?

You are worthless to debate with.

Anyhow. Thing wins and defeats WBH more often than not.

I agree with Rao here...

With the Mephisto amp, Thing was portrayed as more powerful than all the villains on Earth combined...

That portrayal trumps the actual numbers that Thing and various other amped characters have received...

IMHO of course...

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
You don't even know anything.

Thing pulls majority vs grey Hulk?

Lol

You mean pineapple thing not normal thing.

Also show me hulk defeating a more powerful team than the one Thing defeated.
Lol Hulk has even trouble dealing with absorbing man. How is ww hulk or doc defeating this team?

You are worthless to debate with.

Anyhow. Thing wins and defeats WBH more often than not.

Hint, if I'm worthless to debate with, you probably shouldn't quote me. With that said, I'll pass on provide you scans on who Hulk has fought. Its a worthless waste of time. Let me know if you need my shoulder.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I agree with Rao here...

With the Mephisto amp, Thing was portrayed as more powerful than all the villains on Earth combined...

That portrayal trumps the actual numbers that Thing and various other amped characters have received...

IMHO of course...

I can't think of any characters lower than skyfather that will be able to beat Thing with this amp

Originally posted by carver9
Hint, if I'm worthless to debate with, you probably shouldn't quote me. With that said, I'll pass on provide you scans on who Hulk has fought. Its a worthless waste of time. Let me know if you need my shoulder.

Run away little kid

yes maam

Run away like you always do

Rao u got the scan from bens dream?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Rao u got the scan from bens dream?

Which ones are you referring to? I might have them
The dreams before the fight?

Lol...he fought a bunch of Spiderman villains, Doom and absorbing man. Lol...and they all went fist cuff.

Classic Nefaria, Abomination, Juggernaut, Kang, Blastar, Dr Octopus (what doc oc did to hulk?) Dr Doom just to name a few.

I know it hurts little kid, but it is what it is.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Which ones are you referring to? I might have them
The dreams before the fight?

Yea prior to the amp.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...he fought a bunch of Spiderman villains, Doom and absorbing man. Lol...and they all went fist cuff.

U do realize thats not all he faced right? And the fisticuffs argument goes against u

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Yea prior to the amp.



U do realize thats not all he faced right? And the fisticuffs argument goes against u

I think I do, I'll post them later

this is the dream he was reffering to:

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/15_zps7pu8keey.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/16_zpsfvoacnti.jpg

to have an idea of what it was about you might need this scans

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/07_zpsocn7hhxp.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/08_zpssjhfntfv.jpg

also I uploaded this two because they are epic

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/18_zps4rfjjpnq.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/19_zpssza3n0nw.jpg

and this is the cover for secret wars v.II

Ultron was also among the villains defeated by Thing (it's in the comic not only on the cover) Baron Mordo, Enchantress and the wrecking crew

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/01_zpszdc4r0jb.jpg

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The interesting thing about this part of the story is the revelation of just how powerful Mephisto is; if he can casually give Thing the strength to wreck all the villians on Earth at once, then Mephisto himself could do so as well..

The only thing holding Mephisto in check is his desire to get their souls; Mephisto cant get them by killing or by force...a soul has got to be given to him freely and willingly.

This fact is the only thing keeping Marvel Earth from falling to Mephisto, otherwise nothing short of Franklin Richards is stopping him... But then....

http://i64.tinypic.com/11jowvn.jpghttp://i65.tinypic.com/29nezva.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/rg5g5_zps8glv3mhk.jpg

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
This proves that you don't even read the scans, you don't know how to read or you have poor comprehension skills. Which one is it?

The scans posted shown Mephisto breaking contract and Thing returning to normal levels right before the juggernaut.

While Thing was amped by mephisto he was wrecking house.

Thing should win this one

How is he this ****ing stupid yet still able to access the Internet?

Thing wins, it's even spite tbh.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
But then....

http://i64.tinypic.com/11jowvn.jpghttp://i65.tinypic.com/29nezva.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/rg5g5_zps8glv3mhk.jpg

That doesnt disprove my earlier post...

It was explained earlier in that story arc that Mephisto wanted a CCU because his powers were more limited outside of his home realm; the CCU would allow his to bypass those limitations...

Originally posted by Delta1938
How is he this ****ing stupid yet still able to access the Internet?

https://www.stayathomemum.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tantrum.jpg

Whine master

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
That doesnt disprove my earlier post...

It was explained earlier in that story arc that Mephisto wanted a CCU because his powers were more limited outside of his home realm; the CCU would allow his to bypass those limitations... Yeah but you said and I quote: Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
This fact is the only thing keeping Marvel Earth from falling to Mephisto, otherwise nothing short of Franklin Richards is stopping him...

I wish mephisto was still this bad ass

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Yeah but you said and I quote:

If Mephisto wanted to kill the hero's/villians on Marvel Earth (without caring about acquiring his victims soul), outside of Franklin, who is stopping him?

I'm on my phone, and so cant provide the scan, but Mephisto already crushed Surfer effortlessly...the only thing that kept Mephisto from killing him was the fact that killing Surfer would deny Mephisto Surfer's soul forever...its all on panel (it occurred during the arc where Mephisto fought Galactus).

I'll post it tomorrow...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
If Mephisto wanted to kill the hero's/villians on Marvel Earth (without caring about acquiring his victims soul), outside of Franklin, who is stopping him?

I'm on my phone, and so cant provide the scan, but Mephisto already crushed Surfer effortlessly...the only thing that kept Mephisto from killing him was the fact that killing Surfer would deny Mephisto Surfer's soul forever...its all on panel (it occurred during the arc where Mephisto fought Galactus).

I'll post it tomorrow...
And this was OUTSIDE Mephisto's realm. Mephisto crushed Surfer faster than Thanos did.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...he fought a bunch of Spiderman villains, Doom and absorbing man. Lol...and they all went fist cuff.
Look at the scans. Graviton is there too!

Originally posted by zopzop
Look at the scans. Graviton is there too!

Zop, WB Hulk would have beaten all of those guys as well. Just flexing, he was putting out a crazy amount of power.

Well Mephisto has fallen a lo g ways then.thanos effortlessly punked him not that long ago and Thor has done just fine in Mephistos very own realm. Its sad how Marvel treats its gods amd devils amd powerhouses sometimes.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Well Mephisto has fallen a lo g ways then.thanos effortlessly punked him not that long ago and Thor has done just fine in Mephistos very own realm. Its sad how Marvel treats its gods amd devils amd powerhouses sometimes.

But you gotta remember a fight against Mephisto is unique as its never his goal to kill you; he always holds his power in check because of this...

If he unleashes his full power on someone and kills them then he is denied your soul forever...

Your soul is so valuable to Mephisto that he'd rather allow himself to be defeated and maintain a chance at acquiring your soul at some future date than "win" and be denied your soul forever...

I vividly remember his encounter with Thor, Strange and Doom, and Surfer and its the same restriction as above...

Thats a big reason why Mephisto wanted that CCU...

Originally posted by zopzop
And this was OUTSIDE Mephisto's realm. Mephisto crushed Surfer faster than Thanos did.

Did anyone notice that Ben felt pain when he was hit by the Rhino? WB Hulk didn't feel pain when Wendigo, Arm'Cheddon, and Bi-Beast struck him in tandem. Shows which one of these guys would win, and which one loses.

Hulk wins.

Juggernaut, Electro, Baron Mordo, Absorbing man, Titania, Abomination, Dr. Doom, Rhino, Doc Oc, Ultron, Wrecker, Kang, Blastar, Graviton, Crimsom Dynamo, The Wizard, Claw, and so on

Lots of A lister carrying a portion of the Beyonder's power with worthy feats and not a bunch of amped D listers with out worthy feats.

All of them caried a portion of the Beyonder's power stored in the Beyondersbane (a machine created by Mephisto to store the inmense energy used by the Beyonder to destroy Death in the previous chapter) so when they touched the Beyonder it will cause a feed back and destroy the Beyonder.

They just needed to touch the Beyonder and then it was game over, yet Ben Grimm stopped all of them.

Yeah WBH is not wining this one.

Originally posted by Stoic
Did anyone notice that Ben felt pain when he was hit by the Rhino? WB Hulk didn't feel pain when Wendigo, Arm'Cheddon, and Bi-Beast struck him in tandem. Shows which one of these guys would win, and which one loses.

That's not the best argument.

An ant can bite me and I can go "oowwww" or say nothing at all yet still means nothing.

Originally posted by zopzop
Look at the scans. Graviton is there too! As were Kang and Ultron, among others.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
That's not the best argument.

An ant can bite me and I can go "oowwww" or say nothing at all yet still means nothing.


A bad argument is claiming that a portion of Mephisto's power would be enough to defeat WB Hulk, as well as a portion of the Beyonder's power. This is the exact same guy that said that the Hulk at a far weaker level had no finite element within him. Ben saying owww is a clear indicator that WB Hulk is the stronger and tougher of the two. Let's also not try to claim that all of those villains are A listers. The Rhino is now an A lister?

Originally posted by Stoic
A bad argument is claiming that a portion of Mephisto's power would be enough to defeat WB Hulk, as well as a portion of the Beyonder's power. This is the exact same guy that said that the Hulk at a far weaker level had no finite element within him. Ben saying owww is a clear indicator that WB Hulk is the stronger and tougher of the two. Let's also not try to claim that all of those villains are A listers. The Rhino is now an A lister?

Ooowww means nothing.

And Rhino is as A lister as Armacheddon, bi-beast or Wendigo?

They are all pale to Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Graviton and the worth mentioned of that list which btw had a portion of the beyonders power.

Anyway is an opinion forum and I know I won't change yours when it comes to Hulk

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Ooowww means nothing.

And Rhino is as A lister as Armacheddon, bi-beast or Wendigo?

They are all pale to Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Graviton and the worth mentioned of that list which btw had a portion of the beyonders power.

Anyway is an opinion forum and I know I won't change yours when it comes to Hulk

Any 3 of those guys would beat the life out of the Rhino. In order for your claim to be valid, we would have to gauge which one of these guys were portrayed to be stronger, tougher, and more dominant. None of the characters that you mention would hurt WB Hulk cutting loose. However, the Rhino was able to hurt the Thing. This is something that you can choose to ignore or accept. It's right there on panel when Ben says owww. WB Hulk didn't even register the attacks that guys far superior to the Rhino put out when they were punching him. Bi-Beast took on Merged Hulk and the She Hulk combined, and they were worried that they might not have been able to stop him.

Merged Hulk is the same guy that took on X-Factor and was gloating about how they couldn't stop him. He made Guido look like a 10 pound weakling, and Merged Hulk was nothing compared to WB Hulk. So yes, in this particular case an OWWW can be used as strong evidence. You have no evidence to use against WB Hulk to make a claim that this version of the Thing would do more than be torn apart. Where are his low showings at?

Like I said

Opinion forum and when it comes to the Hulk I hardly see anyone changing your mind.

I am too tired to research and refute any of your points so we leave it at that.

Maybe in the future

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Like I said

Opinion forum and when it comes to the Hulk I hardly see anyone changing your mind.

I am too tired to research and refute any of your points so we leave it at that.

Maybe in the future

You aren't going to find any low showings based on context. At a far weaker state before that era of Hulk even went into the Dark Dimension, he was able to survive being hit in the intestines by a being named Hope capable of hitting with the force of Hercules X 133.5. This has nothing to do with favoritism so let's not go that route, it has to do with power gauging. If I thought that this version of the Thing could defeat WB Hulk I'd say so. For the record I believe that OWAW Superman would beat this version of the Thing with ease as well.

Just because you throw a bunch of weaklings with a good track record against other weaklings, doesn't mean that they could take on the big dogs.

Originally posted by Stoic
You aren't going to find any low showings based on context. At a far weaker state before that era of Hulk even went into the Dark Dimension, he was able to survive being hit in the intestines by a being named Hope capable of hitting with the force of Hercules X 133.5. This has nothing to do with favoritism so let's not go that route, it has to do with power gauging. If I thought that this version of the Thing could defeat WB Hulk I'd say so. For the record I believe that OWAW Superman would beat this version of the Thing with ease as well.

Just because you throw a bunch of weaklings with a good track record against other weaklings, doesn't mean that they could take on the big dogs.

Ok for the record I don't believe OWAW Superman (not sundipped) could beat this version of the thing.

So we leave it at that.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Ok for the record I don't believe OWAW Superman (not sundipped) could beat this version of the thing.

So we leave it at that.

I meant at his best, which I assume that we are going with when using the Hulk. I would place this version of the Thing on the level of Mindless Hulk when he took on both East Coast and West Coast Avengers. That would be a good fight. This is a slaughter... all things considered.

Originally posted by Stoic
I meant at his best, which I assume that we are going with when using the Hulk. I would place this version of the Thing on the level of Mindless Hulk when he took on both East Coast and West Coast Avengers. That would be a good fight. This is a slaughter... all things considered.

I don't think is a slaughter but a close fight. I put more value on the enemies that Thing faced than on what Hulk took on.

His list is way more impressive imo.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I don't think is a slaughter but a close fight. I put more value on the enemies that Thing faced than on what Hulk took on.

His list is way more impressive imo.


They were all weaklings in comparison to WB Hulk and the few others that sit in that limited Big Dog's club. WB Hulk would thunderclap and kill every one of those guys except for the Juggernaut who would be BFRed and dazed for days. Go back and read just how strong WB Hulk was. Marvel had to all but retcon the entire HOTM story by having Doom perform brain surgery on the Hulk so that he would forget how to boost himself to those level due to his training on Sakaar. WB Hulk was the Hulk that the Beyonder was talking about.

Okay let's look at it like this. If the Thing was amped 100x base. The Hulk well before he went into the Dark Dimension was stronger than The Thing was when he was able to survive being hit by Hope in the intestines. Immortal Hercules is stronger than a regular Thing. The Hulk at an almost calm state took 133.5 Herc's to the intestines. Shit a toothache could put most people on their butts whining for Ora-gel. Just something to think about.

Originally posted by Stoic
They were all weaklings in comparison to WB Hulk and the few others that sit in that limited Big Dog's club. WB Hulk would thunderclap and kill every one of those guys except for the Juggernaut who would be BFRed and dazed for days. Go back and read just how strong WB Hulk was. Marvel had to all but retcon the entire HOTM story by having Doom perform brain surgery on the Hulk so that he would forget how to boost himself to those level due to his training on Sakaar. WB Hulk was the Hulk that the Beyonder was talking about.

Okay let's look at it like this. If the Thing was amped 100x base. The Hulk well before he went into the Dark Dimension was stronger than The Thing was when he was able to survive being hit by Hope in the intestines. Immortal Hercules is stronger than a regular Thing. The Hulk at an almost calm state took 133.5 Herc's to the intestines. Shit a toothache could put most people on their butts whining for Ora-gel. Just something to think about.

Lol no. There are easy ways using logic and fallacies to prove your numbers wrong.

For something to be true you need true premises and the premises on those statements are false.

Like I said I don't have the energy or the will to get more into this right now, but just using logical fallacies the WBH case crumbles easy.

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

How can you say with a straight face that Hulk innards are 133.5 stronger than Hercules when Hercules can rock WWH?

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Lol no. There are easy ways using logic and fallacies to prove your numbers wrong.

For something to be true you need true premises and the premises on those statements are false.

Like I said I don't have the energy or the will to get more into this right now, but just using logical fallacies the WBH case crumbles easy.

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

How can you say with a straight face that Hulk innards are 133.5 stronger than Hercules when Hercules can rock WWH?

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?


First off you are wrong. Sorry to put it so bluntly. What I've mentioned is canon, which is well above the opinions of the consumer. I didn't lie about anything but took everything that I stated from the books themselves. This version of the Thing simply was not, and is not on WB Hulk's level (far from it TBH). Like I said, the Hulk in a calm state was stronger than that particular Thing. This isn't even something that you should argue Rao. The Hulk has no finite element that can be found in him (quoted from the Beyonder), while the Thing has always had one. Even in the scans that you presented, we see the Thing's limit n the form of feeling the Rhino's punch. WB Hulk didn't even flinch from guys stronger than the Rhino, and while I have no doubt that this particular amped up version of the Thing could defeat Arm'Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo, he would have felt the blows that they delivered, while WB Hulk before going ballistic didn't feel a thing from them. There is a huge gap between that Thing, and WB Hulk.

You don't get it. the Hulk was holding back when he was on Earth. He even said so when he was in Vegas.

Again

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Again

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Once again, because the Hulk was shown to have no upper limit to his might, he did not go beyond the safety limits of what he deemed the Earth could take. We later see this example during the HOTM arc. This would be difficult to fathom if the Hulk didn't actually have dynamic strength. You really have to read from WW Hulk until the end of Heart of the Monster in order to see exactly what I mean.Canonically speaking, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time while on Earth. He just lost the love of his life, and he was damned if he wouldn't let those that he deemed responsible for her death to feel what he was going through. However, he refused to kill them, which he could have at any time if we consider the destruction that went on during HOTM. The Hulk never had to tell anyone on Earth about his plans, he could have landed on Earth, and destroyed the planet and every living creature on it that was unable to survive the Earth's destruction. It was all canon. This version of the Thing would be torn apart by WB Hulk.

A listers-Z listers wouldn't make a bit of difference. That particular argument has no place here because if that were the case it would be like saying the Rhino due to popular status could take on Pagan and not be one shot killed.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Again

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Originally posted by Stoic
Once again, because the Hulk was shown to have no upper limit to his might, he did not go beyond the safety limits of what he deemed the Earth could take. We later see this example during the HOTM arc. This would be difficult to fathom if the Hulk didn't actually have dynamic strength. You really have to read from WW Hulk until the end of Heart of the Monster in order to see exactly what I mean.Canonically speaking, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time while on Earth. He just lost the love of his life, and he was damned if he wouldn't let those that he deemed responsible for her death to feel what he was going through. However, he refused to kill them, which he could have at any time if we consider the destruction that went on during HOTM. The Hulk never had to tell anyone on Earth about his plans, he could have landed on Earth, and destroyed the planet and every living creature on it that was unable to survive the Earth's destruction. It was all canon. This version of the Thing would be torn apart by WB Hulk.

A listers-Z listers wouldn't make a bit of difference. That particular argument has no place here because if that were the case it would be like saying the Rhino due to popular status could take on Pagan and not be one shot killed.

I have read the whole arc from planet Hulk to HOTM and PAK's numbers are convoluted and contradict themselves. So his lip service does nothing when he himself presents two oposing points of view.

The question still remains is the measure "herc" wrong or accurate? If you say accurate please provide the evidence.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I have read the whole arc from planet Hulk to HOTM and PAK's numbers are convoluted and contradict themselves. So his lip service does nothing when he himself presents two oposing points of view.

The question still remains is the measure "herc" wrong or accurate? If you say accurate please provide the evidence.

The evidence is in the books themselves. If you read all of the books then this isn't something that you should actually be asking for. It goes beyond opinion at this point. The Thing that you present in this thread is not an equal to the Hulk based on numbers and what was actually written.

The Hulk in a nearly calm state was stronger than this amped up Thing by a decent margin. Pak isn't the only writer to write outlandish stories. It's fiction. When OWAW Superman performed the way that he did at the height of his power, did you place it under this type of scrutiny? The Hulk has dynamic strength, and Pak gave the consumer a glimpse of that dynamic strength. This amped up Thing being used here had a limit while WB Hulk had the ability to amp at will. It is what it is man.

Originally posted by Stoic
The evidence is in the books themselves. If you read all of the books then this isn't something that you should actually be asking for. It goes beyond opinion at this point. The Thing that you present in this thread is not an equal to the Hulk based on numbers and what was actually written.

The Hulk in a nearly calm state was stronger than this amped up Thing by a decent margin. Pak isn't the only writer to write outlandish stories. It's fiction. When OWAW Superman performed the way that he did at the height of his power, did you place it under this type of scrutiny? The Hulk has dynamic strength, and Pak gave the consumer a glimpse of that dynamic strength. This amped up Thing being used here had a limit while WB Hulk had the ability to amp at will. It is what it is man.

You haven't answered the question at hand.

All the numbers you are using are based on the convoluted numbers Pak gave on his comics.

While OWAW only thrown a single number out there and that single number didn't contradict anything. While pak thrown many numbers and they contradict each other.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
You haven't answered the question at hand.

All the numbers you are using are based on the convoluted numbers Pak gave on his comics.

While OWAW only thrown a single number out there and that single number didn't contradict anything. While pak thrown many numbers and they contradict each other.

Convoluted? Was there something that confused you about what he wrote? It was all clear as day from the perspective of millions. The Hulk held back when he was on Earth, because the premise was that he wasn't a murderer. Having dynamic strength and a history stating that he had no known limit to his strength speaks for itself in volumes. He then goes on to show this strength in a place that no innocent lives were in danger of dying. All of his numbers were spot on because he wrote them. Prior to HOTM and WW Hulk, the Hulk learned how to focus his power, and gained the ability to go from base to Earth Crusher in a moment.

If in the future Superman decides to sun dive, and exhibit more power than the source from which his power derives, should we then place him under this kind of scrutiny? For all we know, the Hulk draws his power from a vast parallel multiverse without end. So to answer the question, while on Earth, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time, which can also be cited on panel because in this case it is literally etched in stone. Well comic book stone at least. He says on panel that he held back the entire time. This includes everything that happened during WW Hulk. Everything.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Again

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Hercules surprised attacked Hulk. Not the same as being prepared for a hit.

Stoic u said amped thing had a limit. Where was that shown?

Originally posted by Stoic
Convoluted? Was there something that confused you about what he wrote? It was all clear as day from the perspective of millions. The Hulk held back when he was on Earth, because the premise was that he wasn't a murderer. Having dynamic strength and a history stating that he had no known limit to his strength speaks for itself in volumes. He then goes on to show this strength in a place that no innocent lives were in danger of dying. All of his numbers were spot on because he wrote them. Prior to HOTM and WW Hulk, the Hulk learned how to focus his power, and gained the ability to go from base to Earth Crusher in a moment.

If in the future Superman decides to sun dive, and exhibit more power than the source from which his power derives, should we then place him under this kind of scrutiny? For all we know, the Hulk draws his power from a vast parallel multiverse without end. So to answer the question, while on Earth, the Hulk drastically held back the entire time, which can also be cited on panel because in this case it is literally etched in stone. Well comic book stone at least. He says on panel that he held back the entire time. This includes everything that happened during WW Hulk. Everything.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Again

Those ramdom numbers thrown by Pak do NOT have solid grounds and are easily proven as false.

One of those statements is false. Either Hulk innards are not 133.5 stronger than Hercules or Herc hit WWH with more than an Herc wich turns the Herc measurement as false. Which one is it, then?

Are you going to keep going dancing around the issue or are you going to answer already which one is it?

If Hulk's soft internal tissue is 133.5 times stronger than Hercules. Hercules shouldn't be able to cause Hulk a nose bleed no matter how much Hulk is holding back. So the only logical conclusion is that the measurement of 1 herc is a number that Pak pulled out of his butt and that does not hold with his other portrayals of Hulk.

Is a WRONG number!

Now don't even get me started on that wishing well stuff because all of that crap is as convoluted as Pak's numbers

Originally posted by carver9
Hercules surprised attacked Hulk. Not the same as being prepared for a hit.

Carver, that's really beside the point here brother. The Hulk held himself in check due to collateral damage, and what that damage would have done to civilian lives. This is seen when he begs for someone to please stop him (Ref.World War Hulk#5), because he began to go outside of the restrictions that he himself placed upon himself, else Black Bolt (doppelganger) would have died in the first volley of that particular campaign. Furthermore, even if Hercules launched a sneak attack at the Hulk during HOTM, it would have mirrored the blows that he took from Arm'Cheddon, Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.

Originally posted by Stoic
Carver, that's really beside the point here brother. The Hulk held himself in check due to collateral damage, and what that damage would have done to civilian lives. This is seen when he begs for someone to please stop him (Ref.World War Hulk#5), because he began to go outside of the restrictions that he himself placed upon himself, else Black Bolt (doppelganger) would have died in the first volley of that particular campaign. Furthermore, even if Hercules launched a sneak attack at the Hulk during HOTM, it would have mirrored the blows that he took from Arm'Cheddon, Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.

I agree. It was outright said he held all of his power back. The nitpicking that is going on in this thread is laughable.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Stoic u said amped thing had a limit. Where was that shown?

He shows a limit when we see that Rhino's punch actually manages to hurt him. This is something that wouldn't have been noticed by WB Hulk. On panel proof while doing comparisons shows this beyond a shadow of doubt.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Are you going to keep going dancing around the issue or are you going to answer already which one is it?

If Hulk's soft internal tissue is 133.5 times stronger than Hercules. Hercules shouldn't be able to cause Hulk a nose bleed no matter how much Hulk is holding back. So the only logical conclusion is that the measurement of 1 herc is a number that Pak pulled out of his butt and that does not hold with his other portrayals of Hulk.

Is a WRONG number!

Now don't even get me started on that wishing well stuff because all of that crap is as convoluted as Pak's numbers

This is what I am trying to tell you. Since the Hulk held back so much during the WW Hulk campaign, he kept himself on the level of characters within Hercules' weight class, or he would have caused senseless deaths. Now since the Hulk on panel was proven not to be a murderer this is exactly why he did that. During that very same campaign, when he went up against the X-Men it specifically stated that his hide had become tougher to cut by Wolverine, and that was due to his increased strength. It is later reinforced when he completely no sells Arm'Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo's assault due to his increase in strength. All of his stats dramatically increased during HOTM.

WBH Stomps, heck even Thor would stomp if he went all outhe

Hulk punch him one time and he dies.

First off, Hulk got ko'ed by 133 hercs.

Second off, rao is playing smug when he's literally saying that an entire run who's sole purpose was to wank Hulk has Pak lying when he specifically went out of his way to make up a measurement system to wank Hulk. How does this work?

Third, he later did the same shit when he amped Wendigo and Bi Beast a thousand times and had normal Hulk defeat and kill them in a conflicting way sure, but the amp was established. Both characters Hulk really doesn't have wins over at normal power.

You could see the frustration in Pak's writing when he had shit like Cho saying "You mean he actually has to destroy a world for us to accept it?" Paraphrasing of course but the message is clear. Pak was going out of his way to try and one up everything Hulk did. He wasn't lying when he wrote the stupid shit he did. He was lying when he had to give Hulk a challenge and make people do good against him.

Not to mention Herc hitting him was in an event with much less freedom and context. Then Pak went ballistic. Also pis exists as well, and you're speaking about the definition of a character with fluctuating strength.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
WBH Stomps, heck even Thor would stomp if he went all outhe

Hulk punch him one time and he dies.

Not sure if you're joking, but in case you aren't, I agree that WB Hulk would obliterate even this version of the Thing when he decided to let go in the Dark Dimension. He was amping at will.

Originally posted by Stoic
This is what I am trying to tell you. Since the Hulk held back so much during the WW Hulk campaign, he kept himself on the level of characters within Hercules' weight class, or he would have caused senseless deaths. Now since the Hulk on panel was proven not to be a murderer this is exactly why he did that. During that very same campaign, when he went up against the X-Men it specifically stated that his hide had become tougher to cut by Wolverine, and that was due to his increased strength. It is later reinforced when he completely no sells Arm'Cheddon, Bi-Beast, and Wendigo's assault due to his increase in strength. All of his stats dramatically increased during HOTM.

The number of 133.5 hercs iirc was not even attributed to the lungs of WBH. But to a hulk not even in wb mode.

This is why it does not fall into a logical conclusion based on what Pak shown in comics.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
First off, Hulk got ko'ed by 133 hercs.

Second off, rao is playing smug when he's literally saying that an entire run who's sole purpose was to wank Hulk has Pak lying when he specifically went out of his way to make up a measurement system to wank Hulk. How does this work?

Third, he later did the same shit when he amped Wendigo and Bi Beast a thousand times and had normal Hulk defeat and kill them in a conflicting way sure, but the amp was established. Both characters Hulk really doesn't have wins over at normal power.

You could see the frustration in Pak's writing when he had shit like Cho saying "You mean he actually has to destroy a world for us to accept it?" Paraphrasing of course but the message is clear. Pak was going out of his way to try and one up everything Hulk did. He wasn't lying when he wrote the stupid shit he did. He was lying when he had to give Hulk a challenge and make people do good against him.

Not to mention Herc hitting him was in an event with much less freedom and context. Then Pak went ballistic. Also pis exists as well, and you're speaking about the definition of a character with fluctuating strength.

Don't know if Pak lied on purpose or not alll I am saying is that the numbers he thrown out there he just made that up his butt and does not hold in any logical conclusion when you see the premises is based on.

That WBH is stronger than other versions of Hulk? Maybe

That a lung of Hulk is 133.5 stronger than Hercules is laughable and easily proven false with an exercise on logical conclusions

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Don't know if Pak lied on purpose or not alll I am saying is that the numbers he thrown out there he just made that up his butt and does not hold in any logical conclusion when you see the premises is based on.

That WBH is stronger than other versions of Hulk? Maybe

That a lung of Hulk is 133.5 stronger than Hercules is laughable and easily proven false with an exercise on logical conclusions

Can you tell me one thing that is logical when it comes to the more ridiculous things portrayed in comics? The number was placed in a canon comic book. You may not accept it, but that really has nothing to do with the outcome of this thread. I don't accept PC Superman being hurt by a human bank robber only to turn around and sneeze away a solar system. I don't accept the Silver Surfer being hurt by a bunch of guys with carpentry hammer's while being strong enough to exist unaided in space. The Hulk survived being hit in the intestines by a being capable of hitting with the force of 133.5 Herc's. And One Big Mob, I never said that he no sold the hit to his intestines, just that he survived something that would have blown most characters to bits.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Don't know if Pak lied on purpose or not alll I am saying is that the numbers he thrown out there he just made that up his butt and does not hold in any logical conclusion when you see the premises is based on.

That WBH is stronger than other versions of Hulk? Maybe

That a lung of Hulk is 133.5 stronger than Hercules is laughable and easily proven false with an exercise on logical conclusions Doesn't matter what contradicts what. You being a Superman fan should know of conflicting showings. You're talking about a character who ramps from 0 to 100 in seconds who was written by a shitty writer who is a massive fanboy of the character.

Pak went out of his way in the comic to create that measurement system pretty much for the sole purpose of that feat. He stressed it numerous times in that story too.

He gave Hulk a really high feat. It's not rocket science. These things happen in comics.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Doesn't matter what contradicts what. You being a Superman fan should know of conflicting showings. You're talking about a character who ramps from 0 to 100 in seconds who was written by a shitty writer who is a massive fanboy of the character.

Pak went out of his way in the comic to create that measurement system pretty much for the sole purpose of that feat. He stressed it numerous times in that story too.

He gave Hulk a really high feat. It's not rocket science. These things happen in comics.

I understand contradictions happen in comics and when that haopens you use logical conclusions.

Which let us know that Superman being KOed by a gas station explosion and then surviving a planet's core explosion can only be explained by the involvement of Doomsday in the fight. So superman was Koed by the explosion of the gas station but due to the exhaustion caused by his fight with Doomsday.

A logical conclusion is exactly used for this purposes. You look at the premises and then come up with a conclusion.

If the premises are false the logical conclusion most likely is wrong.

In this case all that material is written by the same person which only means that he contradicted himself saying one thing and portraying another one.

This is why logical conclusions work and are great for comics. Even if sometimes the element of sci fi is involved.

Also getting kind of tired of this back and forth. I don't have the energy I used to.

So we might continue this tomorrow or just leave it where it is.

I am honestly physically tired

Originally posted by Stoic
Can you tell me one thing that is logical when it comes to the more ridiculous things portrayed in comics? The number was placed in a canon comic book. You may not accept it, but that really has nothing to do with the outcome of this thread. I don't accept PC Superman being hurt by a human bank robber only to turn around and sneeze away a solar system. I don't accept the Silver Surfer being hurt by a bunch of guys with carpentry hammer's while being strong enough to exist unaided in space. The Hulk survived being hit in the intestines by a being capable of hitting with the force of 133.5 Herc's. And One Big Mob, I never said that he no sold the hit to his intestines, just that he survived something that would have blown most characters to bits.

This is actually better to my point

You don't accept SS being KOed by a hammer in the head because you base a logical conclusion that he can and has survived worse.

So you just toss it as a low showing and something that should not even be considered, well the same logical conclusion applies to Pak's wild measuring system.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
First off, Hulk got ko'ed by 133 hercs.

Second off, rao is playing smug when he's literally saying that an entire run who's sole purpose was to wank Hulk has Pak lying when he specifically went out of his way to make up a measurement system to wank Hulk. How does this work?

Third, he later did the same shit when he amped Wendigo and Bi Beast a thousand times and had normal Hulk defeat and kill them in a conflicting way sure, but the amp was established. Both characters Hulk really doesn't have wins over at normal power.

You could see the frustration in Pak's writing when he had shit like Cho saying "You mean he actually has to destroy a world for us to accept it?" Paraphrasing of course but the message is clear. Pak was going out of his way to try and one up everything Hulk did. He wasn't lying when he wrote the stupid shit he did. He was lying when he had to give Hulk a challenge and make people do good against him.

Not to mention Herc hitting him was in an event with much less freedom and context. Then Pak went ballistic. Also pis exists as well, and you're speaking about the definition of a character with fluctuating strength.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Don't know if Pak lied on purpose or not alll I am saying is that the numbers he thrown out there he just made that up his butt and does not hold in any logical conclusion when you see the premises is based on.

That WBH is stronger than other versions of Hulk? Maybe

That a lung of Hulk is 133.5 stronger than Hercules is laughable and easily proven false with an exercise on logical conclusions

Lol...Hercules admitted later on that one Herc equal his Maximum power.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Doesn't matter what contradicts what. You being a Superman fan should know of conflicting showings. You're talking about a character who ramps from 0 to 100 in seconds who was written by a shitty writer who is a massive fanboy of the character.

Pak went out of his way in the comic to create that measurement system pretty much for the sole purpose of that feat. He stressed it numerous times in that story too.

He gave Hulk a really high feat. It's not rocket science. These things happen in comics.



Shadow Dragon blitzing Superman but later on gets blitzed and defeated by Shiva.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I understand contradictions happen in comics and when that haopens you use logical conclusions.

Which let us know that Superman being KOed by a gas station explosion and then surviving a planet's core explosion can only be explained by the involvement of Doomsday in the fight. So superman was Koed by the explosion of the gas station but due to the exhaustion caused by his fight with Doomsday.

A logical conclusion is exactly used for this purposes. You look at the premises and then come up with a conclusion.

If the premises are false the logical conclusion most likely is wrong.

In this case all that material is written by the same person which only means that he contradicted himself saying one thing and portraying another one.

This is why logical conclusions work and are great for comics. Even if sometimes the element of sci fi is involved.

Also getting kind of tired of this back and forth. I don't have the energy I used to.

So we might continue this tomorrow or just leave it where it is.

I am honestly physically tired There is no back and forth or working things out. I don't understand why this would need to continue either.

Pak made a whole system to explain a feat. He then went really in depth with said feat. That feat exists.
He made Hulk get stunned by Hercules in a weaker state in a surprise attack. That feat also exists.

You're trying to take away a feat simply because you think it contradicts when you're ignoring the entire nature of Hulk's character and all the work Pak put into wanking him.

It's a ****ing high end feat, that's all it is. There is no lying. There is only forgetting and fluctuating strength. The same guy had Hulk punch two people amped a thousand times so hard it killed them impacting a ****ing ship. It's about this time you realize Pak was in it for the feats rather than making sense. Same with an even further amped WBH cosmic Hulk and likewise She Rulk stomping Fin Fang Foom really hard on Earth and not destroying it or causing any damage. Does that mean we ignore a planet blowing up in favor of a conflicting case? No. It's just what the guy chose to write. He loves Hulk and hates logic.

Hulk could have been knocked out by a human under Pak and it still wouldn't erase the actual feat.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
There is no back and forth or working things out. I don't understand why this would need to continue either.

Pak made a whole system to explain a feat. He then went really in depth with said feat. That feat exists.
He made Hulk get stunned by Hercules in a weaker state in a surprise attack. That feat also exists.

You're trying to take away a feat simply because you think it contradicts when you're ignoring the entire nature of Hulk's character and all the work Pak put into wanking him.

It's a ****ing high end feat, that's all it is. There is no lying. There is only forgetting and fluctuating strength. The same guy had Hulk punch two people amped a thousand times so hard it killed them impacting a ****ing ship. It's about this time you realize Pak was in it for the feats rather than making sense. Same with an even further amped WBH cosmic Hulk and likewise She Rulk stomping Fin Fang Foom really hard on Earth and not destroying it or causing any damage. Does that mean we ignore a planet blowing up in favor of a conflicting case? No. It's just what the guy chose to write. He loves Hulk and hates logic.

Hulk could have been knocked out by a human under Pak and it still wouldn't erase the actual feat.

This guy right here. Good stuff bro.

See, you're playing smug again when you're literally making up your own logic just so you can ignore a feat.

"Are people using scans from comics? Allow me to overrule that with an abundance of the word 'logical'."

You're talking about comics, more specifically you're talking about a guy who has unlimited anger and apparently his strength cap wasn't seeing Betty murdered or his new wife murdered. Or his dad molesting him. No the strongest he's ever been is looking at his old flame being red. Look what a logical character he is.

You want to know what counts more than your conclusions about logic? A scan from a comic.

Also did you just say that anyone using a scan from the comic stating the power of the attack was using a logical fallacy?


I have called it a high feat. Just like your example of Surfer is a low feat. What you're doing however is trying to reach a point where it just doesn't exist. You're trying to drag everything about it down while you ignore every other piece of surrounding context around Pak's Hulk in favor of one surprise attack on a calmer Hulk. It's not even his best feat under a worldbreakerless Pak.

I miss the days when people would just call pis on things.

Also huge lol on using a rule meant to apply to real world logic and it specifically is talking about shit like sonic booms. Others under that rule would be planets, suns, oxygen, etc.

What the **** sort of real world logic can you get from a magic gas ghost being inhaled by a 1000 pound green gamma man that is born from a 120 pound scientist getting angry? That he has lungs?

Why are you so desperate to erase this feat? No one even gives a **** about it besides Carver

Let me put this easy for you

McDuffie says WW is overpowering for a few seconds Amazo with the power strength of Superman and herself staked.

Does it holds water? Or this is just an embellishment of the narration?

How is it possible that WW is overpowering herself and Superman's strength at the same time when she is just WW strong?

You have the premises now are you going to say that WW is stronger than WW and Superman stacked?

I don't think so and that happen in a comic and has the narration on it. One of the premises is wrong therefore to say that WW is stronger than WW and Superman together is the wrong logical conclusion.

Is just as simple as that. And like I said this whole gig of WBH is easily destroyed with all the contradictions Pak had in his own run.

But anyhow, that is all I am saying. We agree to disagree, the only way you could change my mind is if you can come up with an aceptable logical conclusion and I won't change your point of view with logical conclusions, so we agree to disagree on this matter.

The Hulk does not have a static strength limit, but instead he has vast dynamic strength. This would only be confusing if we were to ignore that the Hulk has dynamic strength and did not learn to use that dynamic strength to it's near limit when he was on Sakaar. Wonder Woman does not make sense, but the Hulk and Superman do, because they both have vast dynamic strength. Pak did not go outside of the boundaries, but instead used what he was given to work with.

Ok was the 133.5 hercs feat was performed by WBH or by a calm hulk?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Doesn't matter what contradicts what. You being a Superman fan should know of conflicting showings. You're talking about a character who ramps from 0 to 100 in seconds who was written by a shitty writer who is a massive fanboy of the character.

Pak went out of his way in the comic to create that measurement system pretty much for the sole purpose of that feat. He stressed it numerous times in that story too.

He gave Hulk a really high feat. It's not rocket science. These things happen in comics. Pak really made it clear how badass his all out Hulk was. He went out of his way to make it abundantly clear.

At the time he appeared to be relatively calm. But, let's recall that this version of the Hulk could amp in an instant instead of taking precious time to ramp up. This was a technique that he learned while he was on Sakaar. You see it on display during the HOTM arc, when he is in Vegas, and at the end of WW Hulk. I was also just using that as an example to show how much more powerful he had become when he was in the Dark Dimension with nothing holding him back from pouring it on. This was to show you that the version of the Thing that you are using would be a weakling in comparison to WB Hulk at the height of his power. I know that it's difficult to believe, but WB Hulk was well above the Herald level. One collision followed immediately with a punch is all that it took for Red She Hulk, and the Hulk to turn more than one planet into dust.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Let me put this easy for you

McDuffie says WW is overpowering for a few seconds Amazo with the power strength of Superman and herself staked.

Does it holds water? Or this is just an embellishment of the narration?

How is it possible that WW is overpowering herself and Superman's strength at the same time when she is just WW strong?

You have the premises now are you going to say that WW is stronger than WW and Superman stacked?

I don't think so and that happen in a comic and has the narration on it. One of the premises is wrong therefore to say that WW is stronger than WW and Superman together is the wrong logical conclusion.

Is just as simple as that. And like I said this whole gig of WBH is easily destroyed with all the contradictions Pak had in his own run.

But anyhow, that is all I am saying. We agree to disagree, the only way you could change my mind is if you can come up with an aceptable logical conclusion and I won't change your point of view with logical conclusions, so we agree to disagree on this matter. How do you figure that Wonder Woman overpowering herself times at least 2 is comparable to the literal numbers and system Pak created? And that's with just accepting your words.

Wonder Woman isn't stronger than herself and that's why Hulk can't withstand an attack 133 times Herc's max punch? What? You're talking about logical fallacies and you just tried to red herring me with a completely non comparable feat.

He didn't give it 133.5 Hulks. He gave it Hercs. He created a new character measured on a scale created almost specifically for that character. That was used for other things as well. He went out of his way to give it specific numbers. This wasn't a lapse in judgement, this was a calculated feat with thought process behind it. The only possible thing to point out is he forgot Herc hit him before, but that's easily explained by Hulk's dynamic strength, and a surprise attack.


Also turning into a rock isn't a great defense either. Your mind won't change, that's good. But just know that you are literally denying long explanations and lots of proof to come to your viewpoint. If Carver pulled the same shit on Superman you would have a meltdown. And I don't even like Hulk and I especially don't like Pak, but I can see an extreme problem with your stance here.
Pak's numbers aren't off. They can't be off. The character he created that was never used again was specifically at this level of power. She was a character created specifically to wank Hulk. Especially when backed by the measurement system created to wank Hulk. Especially by the character that was turned into a character to wank Hulk. Hell Pak even tried to up Cho's intelligence level to specifically wank Hulk. Pak didn't make a mistake, his only regret is not making it 233 hercs. If Pak had the chance he would have specifically had it overpower 120 Hercs throwing a punch at once. Because he wrote it to be stronger, because it was stronger.



And about the actual feat itself. It was a durability feat anyway. It wasn't a "Hulk is this much stronger than Herc" feat. It was a "Hulk can get his ass knocked out by this level of power" feat. And people getting knocked out by an attack that should kill them happens all the time. It's called not killing your main character but still taking them out. There's really no difference in comics anyway. If you can knock someone out, logically it wouldn't take more to kill them. Unless they had a healing factor like a giant real world logic green man.
Even if you don't accept my logic on the view of the feat, it's still a high feat. Of which happens all the time in comics. He did it. He got a better feat a couple issues later but he still did that one. It was written in a book, published, and sold to the general populance. Then pirates took it and scanned it so we could read it. Then we realized Pak did everything he could possible outside of it looking like 133.5 Hercs throwing a punch to make it believable. I'm willing to bet Carver could bring back 5 pages that reinforce the feat. A normal person 10.

I don't understand how this feat can even be disputed. It's not like he wrote some vague shit without explanations. He pulled down his pants and shit in your face while holding up two seperate signs that had a picture of him shitting in your face and one with words that said "There is fecalmatter being planted in your face from my rectum". There is no doubt as to what his intention is. There is no doubt he wrote it in a way that you have to accept it happened like this. Yet here you are saying "nope". And why the nope? Because a, and get this because this is hilarious, but you think a high feat is false because a low feat (iyo) goes against it. That's some Superman gas station shit right there. You're giving the Carve free reign to just go run amok in Superman threads with this. Which naturally you will say nothing about because you handed him the logic. As long as he repeats the mantra of "logic conclusions", he's untouchable.

Anyway, I probably won't care about this tomorrow, nor do I think this qualifies as a debate. More like an exercise in futility. Your platform would be a lot more respectable if you just started claiming "pis" though.

Originally posted by Stoic
At the time he appeared to be relatively calm. But, let's recall that this version of the Hulk could amp in an instant instead of taking precious time to ramp up. This was a technique that he learned while he was on Sakaar. You see it on display during the HOTM arc, when he is in Vegas, and at the end of WW Hulk. I was also just using that as an example to show how much more powerful he had become when he was in the Dark Dimension with nothing holding him back from pouring it on. This was to show you that the version of the Thing that you are using would be a weakling in comparison to WB Hulk at the height of his power. I know that it's difficult to believe, but WB Hulk was well above the Herald level. One collision followed immediately with a punch is all that it took for Red She Hulk, and the Hulk to turn more than one planet into dust. Fun fact, but Wendigo and Bi Beast are both around Hercules level. Arm Cheddon above. Red Shulk and Green Grulk disintegrated them with the shockwave of a punch. You throw hundreds of Mindless Ones in there and you put them at Rhino level too.

The shockwave was well above a couple hercs me thinks.

Originally posted by Stoic
At the time he appeared to be relatively calm. But, let's recall that this version of the Hulk could amp in an instant instead of taking precious time to ramp up. This was a technique that he learned while he was on Sakaar. You see it on display during the HOTM arc, when he is in Vegas, and at the end of WW Hulk. I was also just using that as an example to show how much more powerful he had become when he was in the Dark Dimension with nothing holding him back from pouring it on. This was to show you that the version of the Thing that you are using would be a weakling in comparison to WB Hulk at the height of his power. I know that it's difficult to believe, but WB Hulk was well above the Herald level. One collision followed immediately with a punch is all that it took for Red She Hulk, and the Hulk to turn more than one planet into dust.

Planet into "dust"? not really, talk about embelishment of a feat

And now it was a calm hulk and you assume he just ramp up to WBH levels with out displaying the green aura or did he display the green aura and this was WBH?

Easy green aura means critical mass for hulk no aura means no critical mass. 133.5 hercs with out a green aura means not a wbh that was more pissed than WWH?

It makes sense

Originally posted by One Big Mob

Your platform would be a lot more respectable if you just started claiming "pis" though.

It basically what it is but just using logical conclusions exercises to prove a point

Originally posted by One Big Mob
How do you figure that Wonder Woman overpowering herself times at least 2 is comparable to the literal numbers and system Pak created? And that's with just accepting your words.

Wonder Woman isn't stronger than herself and that's why Hulk can't withstand an attack 133 times Herc's max punch? What? You're talking about logical fallacies and you just tried to red herring me with a completely non comparable feat.

He didn't give it 133.5 Hulks. He gave it Hercs. He created a new character measured on a scale created almost specifically for that character. That was used for other things as well. He went out of his way to give it specific numbers. This wasn't a lapse in judgement, this was a calculated feat with thought process behind it. The only possible thing to point out is he forgot Herc hit him before, but that's easily explained by Hulk's dynamic strength, and a surprise attack.


Also turning into a rock isn't a great defense either. Your mind won't change, that's good. But just know that you are literally denying long explanations and lots of proof to come to your viewpoint. If Carver pulled the same shit on Superman you would have a meltdown. And I don't even like Hulk and I especially don't like Pak, but I can see an extreme problem with your stance here.
Pak's numbers aren't off. They can't be off. The character he created that was never used again was specifically at this level of power. She was a character created specifically to wank Hulk. Especially when backed by the measurement system created to wank Hulk. Especially by the character that was turned into a character to wank Hulk. Hell Pak even tried to up Cho's intelligence level to specifically wank Hulk. Pak didn't make a mistake, his only regret is not making it 233 hercs. If Pak had the chance he would have specifically had it overpower 120 Hercs throwing a punch at once. Because he wrote it to be stronger, because it was stronger.



And about the actual feat itself. It was a durability feat anyway. It wasn't a "Hulk is this much stronger than Herc" feat. It was a "Hulk can get his ass knocked out by this level of power" feat. And people getting knocked out by an attack that should kill them happens all the time. It's called not killing your main character but still taking them out. There's really no difference in comics anyway. If you can knock someone out, logically it wouldn't take more to kill them. Unless they had a healing factor like a giant real world logic green man.
Even if you don't accept my logic on the view of the feat, it's still a high feat. Of which happens all the time in comics. He did it. He got a better feat a couple issues later but he still did that one. It was written in a book, published, and sold to the general populance. Then pirates took it and scanned it so we could read it. Then we realized Pak did everything he could possible outside of it looking like 133.5 Hercs throwing a punch to make it believable. I'm willing to bet Carver could bring back 5 pages that reinforce the feat. A normal person 10.

I don't understand how this feat can even be disputed. It's not like he wrote some vague shit without explanations. He pulled down his pants and shit in your face while holding up two seperate signs that had a picture of him shitting in your face and one with words that said "There is fecalmatter being planted in your face from my rectum". There is no doubt as to what his intention is. There is no doubt he wrote it in a way that you have to accept it happened like this. Yet here you are saying "nope". And why the nope? Because a, and get this because this is hilarious, but you think a high feat is false because a low feat (iyo) goes against it. That's some Superman gas station shit right there. You're giving the Carve free reign to just go run amok in Superman threads with this. Which naturally you will say nothing about because you handed him the logic. As long as he repeats the mantra of "logic conclusions", he's untouchable.

Anyway, I probably won't care about this tomorrow, nor do I think this qualifies as a debate. More like an exercise in futility. Your platform would be a lot more respectable if you just started claiming "pis" though.

Lol...you know me so well. I am going to use the hell out of what rao is doing.

Rao the only thing that you should have said after page 3 is drats, foiled again, because now you have OBM explaining Scatology to you.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
If Mephisto wanted to kill the hero's/villians on Marvel Earth (without caring about acquiring his victims soul), outside of Franklin, who is stopping him?
Stephen & Illyana.

Originally posted by Magnon
Stephen & Illyana.

You do know that Mephisto has demonstrated (on panel) enough power to destroy Marvel Earth several times over?

If Mephisto just said screw it and nuked Marvel Earth, only Franklin would be capable of sensing what was about to happen and be powerful enough to stop it...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You do know that Mephisto has demonstrated (on panel) enough power to destroy Marvel Earth several times over?

If Mephisto just said screw it and nuked Marvel Earth, only Franklin would be capable of sensing what was about to happen and be powerful enough to stop it...
Mephisto isn't that hot outside his realm. Dr. Strange could most certainly sense any overt attack Mephisto was about to try, and fight to stop him. That's pretty much his job. And Magik, too, has a very good track record against Hell Lords. Ever since she traveled back in time to study further under Strange they've had no trouble working together, either.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mephisto isn't that hot outside his realm. Dr. Strange could most certainly sense any overt attack Mephisto was about to try, and fight to stop him. That's pretty much his job. And Magik, too, has a very good track record against Hell Lords. Ever since she traveled back in time to study further under Strange they've had no trouble working together, either.

No, Doctor Strange nor Magik are so in tuned with everything that they know Mephisto's every move and thought...thats ridiculous.

If, in the next 15 seconds, Mephisto decided to destroy Marvel Earth without regard to the billions of souls that he'd forfeit, neither of them would know about it until it was too late.


And just for the sake of argument, lets assume that they did some how know what Mephisto was planning to do 15 seconds before he did it, how are they gonna stop him?

Just will themselves to omniscience and automatically know his exact location? What if Mephisto doesnt want anyone to know what he's up to and uses his power to cloak his presence?

They can just "know" what he's up to, where he's at, and how to stop him anyway?

No, no, no...


Franklin is probably the only being on Marvel Earth that is intuned enough with the universe to know what was about to happen in enough to time to reasonably do something about it (if a cloaked Mephisto decided to destroy Marvel Earth in the next 15 seconds)...

And, as we have all seen, Franklin is definitely powerful enough to defeat Mephisto...

Originally posted by One Big Mob
How do you figure that Wonder Woman overpowering herself times at least 2 is comparable to the literal numbers and system Pak created? And that's with just accepting your words.

Wonder Woman isn't stronger than herself and that's why Hulk can't withstand an attack 133 times Herc's max punch? What? You're talking about logical fallacies and you just tried to red herring me with a completely non comparable feat.

He didn't give it 133.5 Hulks. He gave it Hercs. He created a new character measured on a scale created almost specifically for that character. That was used for other things as well. He went out of his way to give it specific numbers. This wasn't a lapse in judgement, this was a calculated feat with thought process behind it. The only possible thing to point out is he forgot Herc hit him before, but that's easily explained by Hulk's dynamic strength, and a surprise attack.


Also turning into a rock isn't a great defense either. Your mind won't change, that's good. But just know that you are literally denying long explanations and lots of proof to come to your viewpoint. If Carver pulled the same shit on Superman you would have a meltdown. And I don't even like Hulk and I especially don't like Pak, but I can see an extreme problem with your stance here.
Pak's numbers aren't off. They can't be off. The character he created that was never used again was specifically at this level of power. She was a character created specifically to wank Hulk. Especially when backed by the measurement system created to wank Hulk. Especially by the character that was turned into a character to wank Hulk. Hell Pak even tried to up Cho's intelligence level to specifically wank Hulk. Pak didn't make a mistake, his only regret is not making it 233 hercs. If Pak had the chance he would have specifically had it overpower 120 Hercs throwing a punch at once. Because he wrote it to be stronger, because it was stronger.



And about the actual feat itself. It was a durability feat anyway. It wasn't a "Hulk is this much stronger than Herc" feat. It was a "Hulk can get his ass knocked out by this level of power" feat. And people getting knocked out by an attack that should kill them happens all the time. It's called not killing your main character but still taking them out. There's really no difference in comics anyway. If you can knock someone out, logically it wouldn't take more to kill them. Unless they had a healing factor like a giant real world logic green man.
Even if you don't accept my logic on the view of the feat, it's still a high feat. Of which happens all the time in comics. He did it. He got a better feat a couple issues later but he still did that one. It was written in a book, published, and sold to the general populance. Then pirates took it and scanned it so we could read it. Then we realized Pak did everything he could possible outside of it looking like 133.5 Hercs throwing a punch to make it believable. I'm willing to bet Carver could bring back 5 pages that reinforce the feat. A normal person 10.

I don't understand how this feat can even be disputed. It's not like he wrote some vague shit without explanations. He pulled down his pants and shit in your face while holding up two seperate signs that had a picture of him shitting in your face and one with words that said "There is fecalmatter being planted in your face from my rectum". There is no doubt as to what his intention is. There is no doubt he wrote it in a way that you have to accept it happened like this. Yet here you are saying "nope". And why the nope? Because a, and get this because this is hilarious, but you think a high feat is false because a low feat (iyo) goes against it. That's some Superman gas station shit right there. You're giving the Carve free reign to just go run amok in Superman threads with this. Which naturally you will say nothing about because you handed him the logic. As long as he repeats the mantra of "logic conclusions", he's untouchable.

Anyway, I probably won't care about this tomorrow, nor do I think this qualifies as a debate. More like an exercise in futility. Your platform would be a lot more respectable if you just started claiming "pis" though. I don't know what's worse, that you really like typing walls of text so much, or that I read all of it.

You're right, but still. Goddamn.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Fun fact, but Wendigo and Bi Beast are both around Hercules level. Arm Cheddon above. Red Shulk and Green Grulk disintegrated them with the shockwave of a punch. You throw hundreds of Mindless Ones in there and you put them at Rhino level too.

The shockwave was well above a couple hercs me thinks. And then you have guys like ignored guy #6, saying that version is not much stronger than Thor based on feats.