Hercules Vs Jay Garrick

Surtur

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Y is this a thing?

Are you asking why the speed steal is a thing? Or why a character with high end super speed being unable to be tagged by someone who lacks high end super speed is a thing?

I mean I don't know, why is Thanos a thing? Why is Sentry a thing? Or anyone who is overpowered. Why is friggin Dragonball Z a thing?

Sin I AM

Originally posted by Surtur
Are you asking why the speed steal is a thing? Or why a character with high end super speed being unable to be tagged by someone who lacks high end super speed is a thing?

I mean I don't know, why is Thanos a thing? Why is Sentry a thing? Or anyone who is overpowered. Why is friggin Dragonball Z a thing?

Not asking about speed steal. Just asking about your speed posts in general. U seem to have a preconceived notion that bricks cant handle speedsters. Which is false

Surtur

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Not asking about speed steal. Just asking about your speed posts in general. U seem to have a preconceived notion that bricks cant handle speedsters. Which is false

With bricks we have two options: either they possess the speed necessary to react or they are so massively durable that they can endure whatever is thrown at them until they are able to react. Or they have some combination of both.

Now if you feel Hercules wins then you have to choose which of those options you feel are the reason he wins, and then explain why with some feats. Since notice I never actually said Jay wins if he lacks a speed steal, just that he won't get tagged. Unless Jay has feats of hurting Class 100's with his punches, but I'm not sure if he does.

As a side note: I just feel any victory that is achieved merely because your opponent didn't utilize their powers correctly is a pretty shallow victory. It's like if I beat a 4 yr. old kid in a foot race. Okay yes I technically won, but it's nothing to actually brag about.

Sin I AM

Originally posted by Surtur
With bricks we have two options: either they possess the speed necessary to react or they are so massively durable that they can endure whatever is thrown at them until they are able to react.

Hercules is both of these actually

Surtur

So you feel Hercules has consistently shown high end reflexes?

I guess I have to ask, is this how Thor also has "high end" reflexes too? Or Aquaman?

EcstaticGrace

Originally posted by Surtur
So you feel Hercules has consistently shown high end reflexes?

I guess I have to ask, is this how Thor also has "high end" reflexes too? Or Aquaman?

It's a better argument so far then Teth's "consistent Flash like speed"

The only one there that's questionable on reflexes is Thor given writers have had him astonished by Wolverine's speed, having to resort to AOE to tag Quicksilver and Spiderman and etc. Whereas to my knowledge the other 2 haven't been shown to struggle against anyone because of speed.

DarkSaint85

Sentry tried speedblitzing Herc.

Didn't go too well for him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111159405/4065516-3969175-3637250703-30944.jpg

Sin I AM

Originally posted by Surtur
So you feel Hercules has consistently shown high end reflexes?

I guess I have to ask, is this how Thor also has "high end" reflexes too? Or Aquaman?

Im not discussing thor or authur. They arent in this thread. But yes Hercules has the reflexes to deal with Jay. And it's about as consistent as jay stealing speed and not getting hit in combat

riv6672

Yeah, as the thread starter i just have to weigh in with,
Jay is not unhittable. Comics bear that out.
No speed stealing, as i wasnt thinking of it when i posted.
Herc is fast. Comics (and DS scans) bear that out, too.

And thanks guys.

leonidas

herc's fast the same way thor is fast. jay could def take some though. his battle against scythe was pretty f'n amazing. he can also take a bit of a beating himself--not like herc will one shot him. he's take shots from adam don't forget. but he would tire, and herc would tag him, even if it was a blind flail a la adam in the past. this is a close fight imo, and i like both and know both extremely well. i might give herc a slight majority here (assuming no speed steal), but i could see why someone would take jay, though i could never understand anyone claiming one or the other would own the other. that is simply not the case in this match.

riv6672

Its not the case in a lot of the match ups here.
I like your post, it gives credence to both characters.

RadZoa

Anyway, Jay has put a beating on Black Adam before and Adam is a lot faster than Herc is and probably around the same level of strength and durability

Herc is more skilled than Adam is though, most likely Herc will try to use AOE attacks and may even get a hit in on Jay, but Jay already has already shown his durability when Zoom punched him from New York to Dallas

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/125079/2980604-2207677-16.jpg

If Herc does get that lucky shot in, all that's going to do is tell Jay to be careful and not get hit by him and take him out sooner when he realizes Herc is a potential threat.

Sin I AM

Originally posted by RadZoa
Sentry was holding back IIRC

No he wasnt. And he's out reacted a blitzing sentry twice. Once while his back was turned.

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
No he wasnt. And he's out reacted a blitzing sentry twice. Once while his back was turned. He was telling him to stand down and didn't want to fight him. Just because he's flying straight at him doesn't make it a blitz and doesn't mean Sentry is going all out either.

TethAdamTheRock

Originally posted by RadZoa
Anyway, Jay has put a beating on Black Adam before and Adam is a lot faster than Herc is and probably around the same level of strength and durability

So in a Pis less Cis less fight, Black Adam should Stomp herculese

RadZoa

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
So in a Pis less Cis less fight, Black Adam should Stomp herculese I think so since Herc really wouldn't be able to hit him. Adam tends to slug it out but if he should win without too much trouble if he actually uses his speed and picks Herc apart.

Herc is def a more skilled combatant and sometimes skill can overcome physical stats but with Adam and more so Jay there's too much speed to overcome.

beatboks

Originally posted by RadZoa
Anyway, Jay has put a beating on Black Adam before and Adam is a lot faster than Herc is and probably around the same level of strength and durability

Herc is more skilled than Adam is though, most likely Herc will try to use AOE attacks and may even get a hit in on Jay, but Jay already has already shown his durability when Zoom punched him from New York to Dallas

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/125079/2980604-2207677-16.jpg

If Herc does get that lucky shot in, all that's going to do is tell Jay to be careful and not get hit by him and take him out sooner when he realizes Herc is a potential threat.

Jay has never "put a beating" on BA.
There is the one issue where the JSA were fighting BA and Jay laid multiple blows on Teth that he couldnt react to. However at no point did those blows appear to in anyway harm Teth.
Teth was still able to thunderclap and out civilians at risk to get Jay out of his hair.

Not really seeing what Jay is going to do to put Herc down. Due to his age and the heart atrack risk while hes the power to he cant risk IMP, because i diubt he can push his speed high enough without risking a heart attack.

I'd call it a stalemate leaning towards Herc. Herc shouldnt be able to tag him but if he gets that lucky strike (al la BA in WWIII with the swinging arm vs Jay) he can take a few.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by RadZoa
Sentry was holding back IIRC

Herc fought Sentry on another occasion, too.

In Civil War.

He and Hulkling one-shotted Bob... stick out tongue

RadZoa

Originally posted by beatboks
Jay has never "put a beating" on BA.
There is the one issue where the JSA were fighting BA and Jay laid multiple blows on Teth that he couldnt react to. However at no point did those blows appear to in anyway harm Teth.
Teth was still able to thunderclap and out civilians at risk to get Jay out of his hair.

Not really seeing what Jay is going to do to put Herc down. Due to his age and the heart atrack risk while hes the power to he cant risk IMP, because i diubt he can push his speed high enough without risking a heart attack.

I'd call it a stalemate leaning towards Herc. Herc shouldnt be able to tag him but if he gets that lucky strike (al la BA in WWIII with the swinging arm vs Jay) he can take a few.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2029453-black_adam_and_jay_2.jpg

What exactly do you think is going on here? His standard punches are enough to cause Adam to spit blood.

There's also the fact that Jay could steal all of Herc's speed and leave him a statue like Flash did to Inertia.

deathslash

RadZoa

Originally posted by deathslash
Adam was hurt but otherwise unaffected. Herc's pain tolerance is probably above adam's.

No he can't. Riv specifically said that he's not allowed to use that for this fight.

Adam was hurt to the point where Jay could draw blood from him, and I need to see evidence of Herc's pain tolerance and more importantly his durability being above Adam's before I buy the argument that Jay can't hurt him.

He said no prep and no BFR

*edit* saw where he said no speed stealing down the page

riv6672

I was skipping over RZs quoted/posts (on ignore), so it was one side of a phone call for me, but if thats about speed stealing, then no, no speed stealing.
Talk about overkill for an already hard to deal with power! stick out tongue

Sin I AM

Originally posted by RadZoa
Adam was hurt to the point where Jay could draw blood from him, and I need to see evidence of Herc's pain tolerance and more importantly his durability being above Adam's before I buy the argument that Jay can't hurt him.

He said no prep and no BFR

*edit* saw where he said no speed stealing down the page

Look at Adams fight with Ares in new avengers where he was shot with hydra blood bullets and and tanked a napalm bomb.

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Look at Adams fight with Ares in new avengers where he was shot with hydra blood bullets and and tanked a napalm bomb. Adam? You mean Hercs? Sounds cool but Adam survived Martian's heat vision point blank which was said to rival the "birth of a star"

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1037266-racerx_wwiiib4_p16.jpg

RadZoa

Originally posted by riv6672
I was skipping over RZs quoted/posts (on ignore) Why?

riv6672

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Look at Adams fight with Ares in new avengers where he was shot with hydra blood bullets and and tanked a napalm bomb.
Did you mean Hercules? I think i saw that scan here before. huh

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by RadZoa
Adam? You mean Hercs? Sounds cool but Adam survived Martian's heat vision point blank which was said to rival the "birth of a star"

I will call hyperbole, just because statements like that abound all over comics. Temperatures like that would ignite the atmosphere, destroying MMH, lol. Moreover, the scan you showed, showed nothing that MMH's HV used was hot enough to rival stars being born.

Pain tolerance - Herc would rather set himself on fire with napalm, or kill himself, rather than suffer more pain. Yet, he was still able to decimate SHIELD, and fight Ares:

http://s5.postimg.org/etkxtmnyv/HERC_046.jpg

Sin I AM

Originally posted by RadZoa
Why?

Typo. Yea i meant herc and lolz at mms hyperbole

RadZoa

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Temperatures like that would ignite the atmosphere I don't think so, we already know that Superman's (and Martian's comparable HV) can reach those levels. Yeah, it probably would ignite the atmosphere but we've already seen Heat vision being used excessively on Earth without any collateral damage (when Supes vaporized the Doomsday army) logically everytime Superman or any character in his tier throws a punch it should logically destroy everything within miles

Originally posted by DarkSaint85 that MMH's HV used was hot enough to rival stars being born.

J'ohn may not have been going all out but it's fair to assume that, knowing Adam, he used a fair amount of force with his HV to try to stop him and was partially successful as it did somewhat burn Adam's face. Adam wasn't very phased when half of his face was burned, that's ridiculous pain tolerance

Lets also not forget that Adam was getting his face turned into pudding by a dozen + other characters in WW3 and was still fighting and wasn't slowing down much. That's insane damage soak and pain tolerance

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67407/1340520-126175_racerx_wwiiib4_p11_super.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85 Pain tolerance - Herc would rather set himself on fire with napalm

Napalm shouldn't even hurt Hercules even if he doused himself with it and lit himself on fire. That aside, again it's a cool feat but that doesn't show Herc having any higher of a pain tolerance than Adam does.

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Typo. Yea i meant herc and lolz at mms hyperbole I was asking why Riv has me on ignore, I don't even recall ever getting into a conversation with the guy.

Sin I AM

Originally posted by RadZoa
I don't think so, we already know that Superman's (and Martian's comparable HV) can reach those levels. Yeah, it probably would ignite the atmosphere but we've already seen Heat vision being used excessively on Earth without any collateral damage (when Supes vaporized the Doomsday army) logically everytime Superman or any character in his tier throws a punch it should logically destroy everything within miles

J'ohn may not have been going all out but it's fair to assume that, knowing Adam, he used a fair amount of force with his HV to try to stop him and was partially successful as it did somewhat burn Adam's face. Adam wasn't very phased when half of his face was burned, that's ridiculous pain tolerance

Lets also not forget that Adam was getting his face turned into pudding by a dozen + other characters in WW3 and was still fighting and wasn't slowing down much. That's insane damage soak and pain tolerance

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/67407/1340520-126175_racerx_wwiiib4_p11_super.jpg

Napalm shouldn't even hurt Hercules even if he doused himself with it and lit himself on fire. That aside, again it's a cool feat but that doesn't show Herc having any higher of a pain tolerance than Adam does.

What exactly are u trying to prove here? What does any of this have to do with jay?

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
What exactly are u trying to prove here? What does any of this have to do with jay?

Jay can hurt Hercules. The idea that Hercules has a higher pain tolerance or higher durability than characters that Jay has hurt has no merit and no backing to it.

Jay hurts Hercules, Herc can't hit Jay ergo Herc loses

Sin I AM

Sure he can hurt him. Noone said that. But you saying that jay cant be touched is flat out wrong.

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Sure he can hurt him. Noone said that. Several people did actually or at least heavily implied including one person bringing up Herc's pain tolerance and another stating that he couldn't see what Jay would do to put Herc down

But, that's been cleared up now

Herc is unlikely to hit Jay, so far the only argument regarding Herc's speed is Herc reacting to Sentry who I doubt was going all out. Even if he was, Sentry doesn't have speed feats as impressive as Jay does so it's moot.

But sure, Herc COULD hit Jay (unlikely) but COULD, I'm not going to disregard that possibility. But even if he did land a hit it's just going to make Jay be more cautious and make sure to avoid getting hit by him. Speedsters can often get hit by bricks usually by underestimating them or getting caught off guard.

riv6672

Ridiculously so. That plus hyperbole vision...!

beatboks

Originally posted by RadZoa
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/30145/2029453-black_adam_and_jay_2.jpg

What exactly do you think is going on here? His standard punches are enough to cause Adam to spit blood.

There's also the fact that Jay could steal all of Herc's speed and leave him a statue like Flash did to Inertia.

There is no blood in that scan. Here are more of Jay's "NORMAL BLOWS" from the same fight
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2029452-black_adam_and_jay_1.jpg

Clearly no damage her with more blows and jay is trying to "wear him down" . If there were blood in your scan, there would be a sign of it in the front on facing panel after the blow and there isn't. like this
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67407/1340518-126174_racerx_wwiiib4_p10_super.jpg

Knocking the "SPIT" out of someone with blows to the face is NOTHING (and thousands of blows at that - less than nothing in the way of damage).

RadZoa

Originally posted by beatboks
There is no blood in that scan. Here are more of Jay's "NORMAL BLOWS" from the same fight
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2029452-black_adam_and_jay_1.jpg

Clearly no damage her with more blows and jay is trying to "wear him down" . If there were blood in your scan, there would be a sign of it in the front on facing panel after the blow and there isn't. like this
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67407/1340518-126174_racerx_wwiiib4_p10_super.jpg

Knocking the "SPIT" out of someone with blows to the face is NOTHING (and thousands of blows at that - less than nothing in the way of damage). Didn't realize that Adam's spit was blackish

beatboks

Originally posted by RadZoa
Several people did actually or at least heavily implied including one person bringing up Herc's pain tolerance and another stating that he couldn't see what Jay would do to put Herc down

But, that's been cleared up now

Herc is unlikely to hit Jay, so far the only argument regarding Herc's speed is Herc reacting to Sentry who I doubt was going all out. Even if he was, Sentry doesn't have speed feats as impressive as Jay does so it's moot.

But sure, Herc COULD hit Jay (unlikely) but COULD, I'm not going to disregard that possibility. But even if he did land a hit it's just going to make Jay be more cautious and make sure to avoid getting hit by him. Speedsters can often get hit by bricks usually by underestimating them or getting caught off guard.

OMFG. So putting down and hurting are now the same thing. That's what I actually said mate. Jay has no way to put Herc down because he has failed to put down other bricks, Put down is the KO, hurt just all the shit that leads up to it. A fight can go for 10 to 12 rounds and someone get's knocked out then but was hurt many times before that.

deathslash

Originally posted by RadZoa

Herc is unlikely to hit Jay, so far the only argument regarding Herc's speed is Herc reacting to Sentry who I doubt was going all out. Even if he was, Sentry doesn't have speed feats as impressive as Jay does so it's moot. is it moot though? Let's not forget that sentry is the guy that could fly around the world in a few seconds, blitz Thor (who himself has reaction feats against other speedsters, etc. Also, Jay has been tagged by slower characters than hercules, so it's really a question of whether herc can hit him just once or twice in this fight.

beatboks

Originally posted by RadZoa
Didn't realize that Adam's spit was blackish

O_o try and think about it a moment mate.
It wasn't red (color of oxygenated blood)
It wasn't blue (color of de-oxygenated blood)
So the complete lack of color proves exactly what?
It proves that there is no way to actually determine what it was.

RadZoa

If you say so...

Sin I AM

Originally posted by RadZoa
Several people did actually or at least heavily implied including one person bringing up Herc's pain tolerance and another stating that he couldn't see what Jay would do to put Herc down

But, that's been cleared up now

Herc is unlikely to hit Jay, so far the only argument regarding Herc's speed is Herc reacting to Sentry who I doubt was going all out. Even if he was, Sentry doesn't have speed feats as impressive as Jay does so it's moot.

But sure, Herc COULD hit Jay (unlikely) but COULD, I'm not going to disregard that possibility. But even if he did land a hit it's just going to make Jay be more cautious and make sure to avoid getting hit by him. Speedsters can often get hit by bricks usually by underestimating them or getting caught off guard.

You have an instance of Jay beating an elite brick?

DarkSaint85

When boks uses 'mate', you know shit's about to go down.

beatboks

Originally posted by Sin I AM
You have an instance of Jay beating an elite brick?

Haven't you heard? Doing the same level of damage that a man get's from a woman slapping his face is now a victory and a put down laughing out loud

Sin I AM

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When boks uses 'mate', you know shit's about to go down.

I saw that too 😁.

I wanna nip the whole "speed trumps all" bs that seems to float thruout this forum. It's just not keeping within character and definitely not true

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I will call hyperbole, just because statements like that abound all over comics. Temperatures like that would ignite the atmosphere, destroying MMH, lol. Moreover, the scan you showed, showed nothing that MMH's HV used was hot enough to rival stars being born.

Pain tolerance - Herc would rather set himself on fire with napalm, or kill himself, rather than suffer more pain. Yet, he was still able to decimate SHIELD, and fight Ares:

http://s5.postimg.org/etkxtmnyv/HERC_046.jpg
Captain Marvel survived getting turned inside out.

That's probably slightly better than being lit on fire.

abhilegend

Also Jay beat the shit out of Alan in just a few punches if anyone is wondering while possessed by Spirit King

beatboks

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Jay beat the shit out of Alan in just a few punches if anyone is wondering while possessed by Spirit King

As per underlined not a feat of jay's.

Alan isn't a brick either

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by abhilegend
Captain Marvel survived getting turned inside out.

That's probably slightly better than being lit on fire.

But.....Billy is not in this thread.

Hell, he's not even being compared to Herc!

Sin I AM

Originally posted by abhilegend
Captain Marvel survived getting turned inside out.

That's probably slightly better than being lit on fire.

Abhi off his meds again

abhilegend

Originally posted by beatboks
As per underlined not a feat of jay's.

Alan isn't a brick either
Spirit King doesn't amps anybody.

Jay has autoshields.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But.....Billy is not in this thread.

Hell, he's not even being compared to Herc!
Cap and Adam are absolutely equal in every aspect.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Abhi off his meds again

Are you finished trolling?

Surtur

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sentry tried speedblitzing Herc.

Didn't go too well for him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111159405/4065516-3969175-3637250703-30944.jpg

You do know Sentry isn't as fast as Jay, right? His best pure speed feat, as I recall, is when Void has a gun to someones temple and pulls the trigger and Sentry is there 15 feet away and he makes it in time to save the person before the bullet leaves the gun.

Other then that he just flies fast in space. Also Hercules has been around for decades, correct? So he has shown consistent speed on Jay's level? He'd need better feats then what you showed. Maybe I'm forgetting a really awesome Sentry speed feat, but what else has Herc done on that level?

carver9

That's not his best speed ft.

Surtur

Originally posted by carver9
That's not his best speed ft.

Okay, and what other speed feats does Hercules have to suggest he could tag Jay Garrick?

It seems like we are suddenly granting any brick with some vague reaction feats the ability to react to high end speedsters.

Sin I AM

Originally posted by abhilegend
Spirit King doesn't amps anybody.

Jay has autoshields.

Cap and Adam are absolutely equal in every aspect.

Are you finished trolling?

SERIOUSLY? Marvel and Adams feats are not interchangeable and therefore have no bearing on this thread.

Secondly the question asked about a brick not a possessed magical lantern. Get your weak ass arguments outta here

Surtur

I mean so how far do we want to take this? Let's see, the following people attempt to blitz Hercules:

-Wally West
-The Runner
-PC Superman

What is the outcome?

beatboks

Originally posted by abhilegend
Spirit King doesn't amps anybody.

Jay has autoshields.

Amps had nothing to do with it. If Jay was possessed than it isn't what he would do in character is it?? Jay doesn't fight like that normally.

O_o how does that make any diference to the fact that Alan's durability is nothing like BA's or Herc's????

Surtur

If people want to say Jay loses merely because he won't do something he is capable of doing I'm cool with that. Since it says more about Jay then it ever would about Hercules.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Sin I AM
SERIOUSLY? Marvel and Adams feats are not interchangeable and therefore have no bearing on this thread.

Adam can take anything Cap did. Its not transferring feats. They are as equal as you can get in comics.

WTF are you talking about now? Durability is durability.

You want to see Alan's durability? How about Nabu?

ghostman

Sin I AM

Originally posted by abhilegend
Adam can take anything Cap did. Its not transferring feats. They are as equal as you can get in comics.

WTF are you talking about now? Durability is durability.

You want to see Alan's durability? How about Nabu?

Abhi. Ok, care to explain why you keep bringing up Marvel, Adam, and Scott in a Hercules vs Jay thread? Jay didnt beat anyone mentioned straight up so whats the point

ghostman

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Abhi. Ok, care to explain why you keep bringing up Marvel, Adam, and Scott in a Hercules vs Jay thread? Jay didnt beat anyone mentioned straight up so whats the point

he brought up marvel and adam because they are equally durable, and scott because jay was able to effect a more powerful opponent with his punches. hes trying to say jay can effect adam whos more durable than herc

riv6672

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I saw that too 😁.

I wanna nip the whole "speed trumps all" bs that seems to float thruout this forum. It's just not keeping within character and definitely not true
God yes, that is sofa king retarded.
Either people just misread comics, or ignore them to "win". Not sure which is worse.

jrodslam

Can Jay beat him? Yes. For a majority? Depends. Been a while since i read some Garrick.

zopzop

Originally posted by Surtur
I mean so how far do we want to take this? Let's see, the following people attempt to blitz Hercules:

-Wally West
-The Runner
-PC Superman

What is the outcome?
I don't know about Wally West, but PC Superman and Runner would break Hercules with or without a speedblitz.

riv6672

Thanks for the bump.

cdtm

Originally posted by Surtur
Which version of Jay? Some versions can speed steal, so he'd stomp Herc. Even without that he's still way way too fast for Herc to ever lay a hand on.

Speed force dumped King of Tears, after it tore apart Spectre.

Although he also got lost in time, so.. maybe not a good move here.

riv6672

Didnt know that. Cool.

RadZoa

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Abhi. Ok, care to explain why you keep bringing up Marvel, Adam, and Scott in a Hercules vs Jay thread? Jay didnt beat anyone mentioned straight up so whats the point This has already been explained to you, they keep getting brought up to show that Jay can hurt characters that are as if not more durable than Herc is. Jay didn't beat any of them, he doesn't have to beat them to beat Herc as Herc himself couldn't beat any of them.

Juntai

Originally posted by riv6672
God yes, that is sofa king retarded.
Either people just misread comics, or ignore them to "win". Not sure which is worse. Comics and debates aren't the same.

Flash doesn't always go full bore like he will on the forum. His typical speed in comics is a around speed, or so. This is when you see a guy like Deathstroke hitting him.

But when he decides to, he's can snap up to 800,000 times that speed or more in a second, and when he does, its an entirely different issue. Not many characters can keep up with that, or take those shots from him.

And yes, he will do it on the forum. There's no comic narrative forcing him to keep his power at it's bottom end. He'll use all of his powers to win.

Stoic

Originally posted by Juntai
Comics and debates aren't the same.

Flash doesn't always go full bore like he will on the forum. His typical speed in comics is a around speed, or so. This is when you see a guy like Deathstroke hitting him.

But when he decides to, he's can snap up to 800,000 times that speed or more in a second, and when he does, its an entirely different issue. Not many characters can keep up with that, or take those shots from him.

And yes, he will do it on the forum. There's no comic narrative forcing him to keep his power at it's bottom end. He'll use all of his powers to win.

While I somewhat agree, I also disagree. You can't take a character, and say that they go full bore if they wouldn't go full bore in character. You have to always allocate a certain percentage of the argument towards both power set, and the actual personality of the character. If not we would have Superman operating like Ultraman, Gladiator, and Black Adam. Thor would come in off of the bat whipping up his most powerful storm, while creating a impenetrable mystical vortex with his hammer, or her hammer in Jane Foster's case. The Hulk would tear apart an entire continent and throw it at his opponent, etc. If you can see what I'm saying, show it.

DarkSaint85

Speed is a different matter, though.

For example, I'm Cyclops, fighting the Flash.

Match starts, neither of us are vicious murderers. I don't go full bore with my eye beams, Flash doesn't go full speed.

But who would you bet on REALISING that they need to up a gear, go full bore?

Jay, on panel, has strategised within nanoseconds or whatever. He is fully capable of going from gear 1 to 10000 in a fraction of a second.

Stoic

@Darksaint In all honesty, I don't think that Hercules is going to win this, and if he did it would be more about luck than it would actually be about being able to see Jay, react to him, and land a solid punch. An earthquake jarring punch to the ground form Hercules may be able to give him an advantage before being whittled done by multiple punch assaults, but then again could Jay avoid it? I do see what you're saying. I do agree that power set has it's merits, but my argument is also about characterizations which can not be ignored and is equally as important as power set. After all the Hulk never had to go through any of the crap that he went through during WW Hulk if we consider what he did during HOTM. You see what I'm saying? Gotta run

riv6672

Originally posted by Juntai
Comics and debates aren't the same.

Flash doesn't always go full bore like he will on the forum. His typical speed in comics is a around speed, or so. This is when you see a guy like Deathstroke hitting him.

But when he decides to, he's can snap up to 800,000 times that speed or more in a second, and when he does, its an entirely different issue. Not many characters can keep up with that, or take those shots from him.

And yes, he will do it on the forum. There's no comic narrative forcing him to keep his power at it's bottom end. He'll use all of his powers to win.
Originally posted by Stoic
While I somewhat agree, I also disagree. You can't take a character, and say that they go full bore if they wouldn't go full bore in character. You have to always allocate a certain percentage of the argument towards both power set, and the actual personality of the character. If not we would have Superman operating like Ultraman, Gladiator, and Black Adam. Thor would come in off of the bat whipping up his most powerful storm, while creating a impenetrable mystical vortex with his hammer, or her hammer in Jane Foster's case. The Hulk would tear apart an entire continent and throw it at his opponent, etc. If you can see what I'm saying, show it.
Exactly.
Its one reason i dont make, or post in, CBR style "blood lust" threads. They're boring to me.
Figuring out how a character might actually win requires more imagination IMO.

Juntai

Forum rules specifically handle this issue.

Flash is still going to fight within the parameters of his characters. e.g; unless its dire, hes not going to speedforce dump someone. He has taken many losses without this tactic.

However, he WILL go full bore and put down his opponents on the forum.

Superman is the same way, which is a large part of the disparity between posters regarding him.

riv6672

No, the disparity comes from posters not wanting to take a loss, not being able to figure out how their character might otherwise win, and so claiming that a certain tactic will immediately be used when it really wouldnt.
Like Superman.
He doesnt fight like the Flash. But put him opposite a viable threat here, and he will start out with and maintain a speed blitz indefinitely.
Like Reed Richards.
He will use prep only to get one thing out of his closet.
Like Flash himself.
He will speed steal instantly.
People here can (and have, and will) argue like this all they want, thats their right. Mine is to call bullshit on it, until the subject bores me, then move on, none the worse off.