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He's certainly growing in strength and is a top tier jedi but how far will he go?

The Godlander is going to kill Valkorion legit 1v1 one day.

Honestly, I won't be surprised if he surpasses FOTJ Luke which is pretty disgusting.

Act II HoT was already pretty impressive imo, and as Outlander he is getting better with each chapter.

What has he actually done at this point?

Gets oneshotted by everyone and their dog.

Tbf he got owned by arcann did he not?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Gets oneshotted by everyone and their dog.
Dude got TK'd by an illusion, kek.


Anyway, above Arcann, at least.

Still sub-Ahsoka tier then.

Kek, the HoT is powerful enough to resist Sel-Makor and Vitiate level telepathy as of Act 3.

The Godlander that will wreck Arcann and conquer the galaxy will be Father tier, EZ.

Still gets rekted in sabers.

So everyone keeps saying, no feats yet tho.

Act II HoT is Ahsoka level in sabers, fool, let alone peak Godlander.

Peak Godlander is a myth and a dream.

Good. Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us into something better. And on my soul, I swear that until my dream of a world where Valkorion, the Godlander and Swtor supremacy is the reality we all share, I'll never stop fighting. Ever.

Accepting that Sidious > Vitiate kinda puts a limit on how powerful the other heavyweights in TOR can be, given how routinely the Emperor punks them. Vitiate being > all six dread masters combined makes it hard to believe that anyone else in that era aside from maybe Revan is Vader tier.

The trick is not accepting that.

Itz canan doe.

Valkorion isn't a Sith so he isn't bound by any quotes.

He's also blatantly more powerful than Sidious is.

Who cares, he was once a Sith but now he isn't. This is canon to the game and is repeatedly made clear over and over in dialogue and other sources.

Sidious being "the greatest master of evil" isn't relevant to his force power, that has no direct reference in the quote. Don't know why you posted it, it's useless.

Valkorion is a liar. 3rd person sourcebooks are not.

That quote clearly refers to strength in the Force, unless if you think it was referencing his political control or something, which wouldn't really fit into the context of things.

Also he "had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side", so he's still > Valky. Sorry mate.

Sourcebooks can be wrong or have misleading statements. It's not like Bioware are even bound by canon anymore.

No it doesn't. What is being the greatest referring to? Sidious is the only Sith to rule to whole galaxy so perhaps it's that. In any case, theres no clear connection between the quote and force power.

Valkorion is beyond the Dark or Light sides, so who gives a shit?

In-universe evil antagonists can also have misleading statements. And we need to assume some manner of continuity or debating these matters falls apart.

Lol, Valky's pseudo-philosophical BS aside, he's obviously using dark/light side powers (even the Son/Daughter are...), and Palpatine is greater at the former than he is.

Face it, Valky will also play second-fiddle to the most powerful Sith Lord in all of Star Wars. Kneel before the shadow of Gideon, and He may make it quick.

Or we could debate without falling back on shitty blanket statements that only serve to stifle discourse, evaluation and critical thinking.

Lol, so Sidious is superior to the Son? Pfft. Also, naw. Valkorion > Sidious. When Sidious murders a planet and grows from it he can step to Valkorion. Until then though....

B*tch, I actually debated Gideon. For years. He's gone and I'm still here. Should tell you something about who kneels to whom.

"he's still an entity that once used sith power" @The Ellimist
May I ask how that matters when put in the context of that quote, that's the whole point of valkorion being stronger than sidious
He used to be weaker when he was a "sith" but now he is beyond light and dark and is now stronger than sidious
You can't only apply a weaker and former self of a character to a quote that's just retarded

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or we could debate without falling back on shitty blanket statements that only serve to stifle discourse, evaluation and critical thinking.


If you want to compare their feats, I think that would be an interesting exercise, but that the canon answer isn't fun for you doesn't make it any less canon.



The Son is the dark side. There's a difference.



But Sidious has murdered planets...



Valkorion died before Palpatine did. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
"he's still an entity that once used sith power" @The Ellimist
May I ask how that matters when put in the context of that quote, that's the whole point of valkorion being stronger than sidious
He used to be weaker when he was a "sith" but now he is beyond light and dark and is now stronger than sidious
You can't only apply a weaker and former self of a character to a quote that's just retarded

If I call someone "the smartest person ever to drop out of high school", that the act of dropping out of high school happened in the past for many doesn't preclude the statement from applying to their future selves.

Well Valkorion is not just using the dark side of the force and doesnt carry a sith title and doesn't rule sith and denies being sith. In fact he criticizes empire protags whenever they mention their ties to the Sith.

The expansion is about different approaches on the force. Satele & Marr have one, Sith, Jedi, Zakuul factions each have one, and Valkorion has one too (which slightly differs from Zakuul's?)

In the latest chapter Valkorion says "You've mastered the dark side. It is not enough. It never was."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with Sidious > Valkorion. The notion of Valkorion still being a sith is blatantly wrong though.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well Valkorion is not just using the dark side of the force

Nonsense. He may wax poetic about his transcending dark/light side ideology, but at a mechanistic level he's still using dark side energies.



Too bad the sourcebook still calls him sith, and too bad former sith would still fall under Palpatine's umbrella by virtue of the last two quotes, one of which generalizes to all people who ever used sith power, and the other of which generalizes to everyone who tamed the dark side.



Yeah, I'm playing games with Neph, as I always do.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nonsense. He may wax poetic about his transcending dark/light side ideology, but at a mechanistic level he's still using dark side energies.



Too bad the sourcebook still calls him sith, and too bad former sith would still fall under Palpatine's umbrella by virtue of the last two quotes, one of which generalizes to all people who ever used sith power, and the other of which generalizes to everyone who tamed the dark side.



I believe the rest of my post answered this. Are you from another forum or something?

I barely know who you are dude.

Seriously?

Hewhoknowsall?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkorion isn't a Sith so he isn't bound by any quotes.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valkorion%20is%20an%20ancient%20sith_zpsmouzq0tp.png

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's also blatantly more powerful than Sidious is.

Eh, not really. Per feats and accolades, the Emperor is pound-for-bound vastly superior to Valkorion. Especially when you consider that he didn't need thousands of Sith Lords and fourteen centuries to achieve that kind of power.

I remember when I fell in line with Han's views. He seemed a good man.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Especially when you consider that he didn't need thousands of Sith Lords and fourteen centuries to achieve that kind of power. #burnz

A fact that will haunt Vitiate for eternity.

Originally posted by Sinious
#burnz

A fact that will haunt Vitiate for eternity.

More or less.

Even if we adopt the heretics' cripplingly conservative and flagrantly biased assessment of the Emperor's power, for him to achieve even comparable status to Valkorion is still an indictment of the latter, given his many comparable advantages.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valkorion%20is%20an%20ancient%20sith_zpsmouzq0tp.png.

Oh please. There's at least 3-4 quotes in the actual expansion explaining that Valkorion isn't a sith, kek.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh please. There's at least 3-4 quotes in the actual expansion explaining that Valkorion isn't a sith, kek.

The new treasurer of my fan club has put forth a compelling argument to undermine that. Valkorion doth protest too much.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Especially when you consider that he didn't need thousands of Sith Lords and fourteen centuries to achieve that kind of power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if we adopt the heretics' cripplingly conservative and flagrantly biased assessment of the Emperor's power, for him to achieve even comparable status to Valkorion is still an indictment of the latter, given his many comparable advantages.

Good point.

I mean, when you think about it for more than thirty seconds, that's pretty shameful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The new treasurer of my fan club has put forth a compelling argument to undermine that. Valkorion doth protest too much.

I've always found quotes that predate Valkorion's existence and therefore his inclusion in such analyses to be pretty inadequate in demonstrating who's actually superior. Another example of this would be stating Exar Kun is superior to Vitiate because of blanket statements implying he was the greatest of the ancient Sith Lords.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I've always found quotes that predate Valkorion's existence and therefore his inclusion in such analyses to be pretty inadequate in demonstrating who's actually superior. Another example of this would be stating Exar Kun is superior to Vitiate because of blanket statements implying he was the greatest of the ancient Sith Lords.

That example doesn't actually work: Exar Kun's status as the most powerful Sith during what we now know to be Vitiate's lifetime is explicitly contradicted by newer sources, such as The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which proclaim that Vitiate was the most powerful Sith Lord in history at the time.

Nothing explicitly contradicts Sheev's superiority over Valkoriate.

Also, the proclamation of Plagueis's GOAT status (prior to Palpatine's ascension) comes after Vitiate's creation; the novel even mentions him. So Plagueis > Vitiate is fact.

Blurbs aren't canon.

Says who?

Drew Karpyshan iirc. They aren't written by anyone able to make canon statements. They're put in by the publishing company to sell the books.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That example doesn't actually work: Exar Kun's status as the most powerful Sith during what we now know to be Vitiate's lifetime is explicitly contradicted by newer sources, such as The Old Republic Encyclopedia, which proclaim that Vitiate was the most powerful Sith Lord in history at the time.

Nothing explicitly contradicts Sheev's superiority over Valkoriate.

Except Valkoriate not being a Sith Lord. Even if we assume that Palpatine is superior in "taming the dark side," (which is still a funny quote given that the quote also implies that Ulic Qel Droma of all people wasnt all that far behind Sheev in taming the dark side, and that Droma was more worthy of consideration than anyone else in this regard, including someone like, say, Vader) it still doesn't preclude superiority over Valkorion, given that he cared not for "taming" the dark side of the force. He had embraced a superior philosophy by then.

not that the above quote should really be relied on to prove anything given the aforementioned reasoning.

Valkorion simply has better combat feats, in universe hype, and haxx than Sidious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except Valkoriate not being a Sith Lord. Even if we assume that Palpatine is superior in "taming the dark side," (which is still a funny quote given that the quote also implies that Ulic Qel Droma of all people wasnt all that far behind Sheev in taming the dark side, and that Droma was more worthy of consideration than anyone else in this regard, including someone like, say, Vader) it still doesn't preclude superiority over Valkorion, given that he cared not for "taming" the dark side of the force. He had embraced a superior philosophy by then.

not that the above quote should really be relied on to prove anything given the aforementioned reasoning.

Valk's status as a Sith is confirmed by the codex, though. You misused "preclude." And I don't cling to the DESB quote about "taming the dark side" as ironclad evidence of Sheev's superiority over Valk.

You've offered nothing that qualifies as an implicit contradiction, let alone an explicit one, which is why your example with Kun/Vitiate crumbles alongside your entire platform.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion simply has better combat feats, in universe hype, and haxx than Sidious.

Nah, not really. Sheev has better feats, better accolades, and didn't need 8k Sith Lords and 14 centuries to get them.

The only thing Sidious is better than Valkorion at is staying dead. And it's neither of their strong points.

There's a quote in the codex that claims Nox rules a sphere in the Empire, and even though literally all evidence says Nox hasn't even been to the Empire in five ****ing years, and that the Dark Council doesn't even exist anymore, Nox must still be on it. The codex says so.

The anguish from your denial both arouses and sustains me, but your argument is... Lacking.

No, it really isn't. Codex says Nox is a Dark Council member, and since the codex says it, it must be true, even if it's long before current events. You know this, Tempest. You're using the same argument yourself a few posts up.

This is actually a good point tho: Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's a quote in the codex that claims Nox rules a sphere in the Empire, and even though literally all evidence says Nox hasn't even been to the Empire in five ****ing years, and that the Dark Council doesn't even exist anymore, Nox must still be on it. The codex says so.

I do think that eventually a sourcebook will confirm that he isn't a sith, and this sort of semantics masturbatory exercise will cease to work. But don't worry, there are still some weapons you can't really deal with (Palpy = universe buster confirmed).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Valk's status as a Sith is confirmed by the codex, though. You misused "preclude." And I don't cling to the DESB quote about "taming the dark side" as ironclad evidence of Sheev's superiority over Valk.

You've offered nothing that qualifies as an implicit contradiction, let alone an explicit one, which is why your example with Kun/Vitiate crumbles alongside your entire platform.



Nah, not really. Sheev has better feats, better accolades, and didn't need 8k Sith Lords and 14 centuries to get them.

1. Which is contradicted at least 3-4 times by the actual game. You can't look at Valkorion and what he's become and say, "this guy is a Sith Lord" anymore.

2. Preclude inferiority to*

3. Good.

4. Given that you just stated that you don't cling to the DESB quote, which quotes are you clinging to, exactly?

5. Not needing 8k Sith and 14 centuries to gain his power isn't what we're discussing. Valkorion one shotting Revan (on a nexus admittedly) long before his prime, easily destroying the Jedi strike team while caging Vaylin's power and not trying to kill them, one shotting Arcann, quickly defeating Arcann again while weakened (and in the process the outer effects of his attack were downing ships, killing hundreds of people, creating lightning storms across the sky, etc) one shotting the Hero, stomping the Hero again, etc are more impressive than stalemating Yoda, stalemating talzin, destroying maul and oppress, destroying the B Team, losing to Windu, stomping An unbalanced Luke on a dark side nexus, getting stomped by Luke, etc. and Valkorion's power as a spirit > any haxx Sidious can bring to the table.

Anyway, since the HoT is beating Arcann, I guess they must be Vader+ level. We'll see how the fight goes to see how impressively they perform.

Neph ruins it by saying something retarded.

Originally posted by Sinious
This is actually a good point tho:

Tempest did cleverly deflect it with humor. But that there are specific contradictions in a sourcebook doesn't mean that everything in it should be unconditionally discarded; otherwise we ought discard the movie novelizations because they all clash with the films in multiple locales.

The codex isn't a sourcebook, dumbass, it's an in game reference aid to give context to situations.

Which changes my point...how, exactly?

Critiquing irrelevant semantics to mask your lack of insight, I see. Will be sure to adjust your position in my tier list.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tempest did cleverly deflect it with humor. But that there are specific contradictions in a sourcebook doesn't mean that everything in it should be unconditionally discarded; otherwise we ought discard the movie novelizations because they all clash with the films in multiple locales. Yes, and what do we do instead? We only eliminate the parts that contradict with what actually happens like you said. So I'd imagine doing the same with codex entries would be the only logical line of thinking by your own admittance, which clearly leads to Valkorion is not a Sith. Not that I think codex entries are comparable to novels lol

Originally posted by Sinious
Yes, and what do we do instead? We only eliminate the parts that contradict with what actually happens like you said. So I'd imagine doing the same with codex entries would be the only logical line of thinking by your own admittance, which clearly leads to Valkorion is not a Sith. Not that I think codex entries are comparable to novels lol

OK, so it's a question now of whether you trust Valkorion's word or the codex's. Isn't the codex third-person temporal omniscient?

In either case, sooner or later that error will be corrected, and then the Sidious supporters will have to fall back on some other fail safes.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which changes my point...how, exactly?

Much like me bringing up how ****ing amazing being on cloud nine is, your point isn't relevant at all. Codex entries aren't comparable to a sourcebook. Like in the slightest.

Your opinion of me is as irrelevant as pretty much everything else you've ever said. Who actually cares?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK, so it's a question now of whether you trust Valkorion's word or the codex's. Isn't the codex third-person temporal omniscient? As Freshest tried to explain, codex entries give you a context of things throughout the game. Valkorion spent the majority of his life as a Sith diety, and naturally can be referred to as Sith on a vague platform such as a codex entry that (as proven above) can be referring to a specific timeline in present tense, which is clearly (for anyone who is willing to stop ignoring it) the case for Valkorion. No one's saying that he was never Sith, the argument here is that he stopped being a Sith, which is different. I prefer holding on to Sidious' same level of power, storms, and huge advantage in melee.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Much like me bringing up how ****ing amazing being on cloud nine is, your point isn't relevant at all. Codex entries aren't comparable to a sourcebook. Like in the slightest.


Almost finished! You've made your assertion - now you need something called a "justification" to demonstrate its validity.

For example: "smoking cigarettes is a bad idea because it increases your chance of heart cancer."

^ red is where the justification is



I suppose my noticing that you lack intelligence isn't super important unto itself, true.

We saw how melee favored Arcann. Any contest between Sidious and Valkorion will be settled in the Force. Valkorion's superior defenses, lightning, telepathy, sorcery and similar level of TK point to his victory.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Neph ruins it by saying something retarded.

Nah.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valkorion%20is%20an%20ancient%20sith_zpsmouzq0tp.png
Still caught in the semantics?

Tell me! Why would a true Sith Lord perceive Sith teachings as archaic and go to extreme lengths to establish a new Empire and philosophy? Sith tend to believe that their philosophy is a pathway towards unparalleled power. Yet, Valkorion felt otherwise.

The above makes no-sense from even strictly storytelling purpose. Valkorion's offspring are not Sith either; they understand the Force in a different manner.

Satele Shan reveals that the Jedi failed to subdue Valkorion's offspring because their philosophy and standards were not up to the task.

A codex entry does not covers everything; it represents a small piece of history of a character.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Almost finished! You've made your assertion - now you need something called a "justification" to demonstrate its validity.

For example: "smoking cigarettes is a bad idea because it increases your chance of heart cancer."

^ red is where the justification is

That's amazing. That still does not make a your opinion on sourcebooks remotely relevant pertaining codex entries.

Pretty ironic given your own understanding that's about on par with a block of wood.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's amazing. That still does not make a your opinion on sourcebooks remotely relevant pertaining codex entries.




You did not understand a word you just quoted, did you?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Son is the dark side. There's a difference.
No.

The Son is a Force-wielder.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But Sidious has murdered planets...
No.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorion died before Palpatine did. Concession accepted.
Valkorion's story is not yet complete. We don't know when and how would he perish. Or perhaps he ever would?

Originally posted by The Ellimist


You did not understand a word you just quoted, did you?
I'm going to put this in words even someone as dense as you apparently are can understand. Your. Justification. Is. Not. Relevant. To. Anything. I don't care why you posted something, it doesn't pertain to this situation. I.e. the codex is wrong about Valkorion, and it is stressed more and more as the game goes on. Therefore, the codex saying Valkorion is a "Sith entity" is more about context than his actual beliefs. Therefore Tempest's line of logic is wrong. Your line of logic about accepting materials until some encyclopaedia is produced is wrong. Everything you've said since this conversation began is wrong, and your continuing to have posting privileges is wrong.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm going to put this in words even someone as dense as you apparently are can understand. Your. Justification. Is. Not. Relevant. To. Anything. I don't care why you posted something, it doesn't pertain to this situation. I.e. the codex is wrong about Valkorion, and it is stressed more and more as the game goes on. Therefore, the codex saying Valkorion is a "Sith entity" is more about context than his actual beliefs. Therefore Tempest's line of logic is wrong. Your line of logic about accepting materials until some encyclopaedia is produced is wrong. Everything you've said since this conversation began is wrong, and your continuing to have posting privileges is wrong.

Your lack of reading comprehension is making my head hurt. My post was not about my justification for things, it was an intentionally condescending request for your justification for your claim that the codex is less reliable than a sourcebook. Your current assertion, that we should take the word of Valkorion over the codex, is another that requires justification.

I will wait, but keep making me feel smart via contrast.

It's not just the word of Valkorion, anyways.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, it really isn't. Codex says Nox is a Dark Council member, and since the codex says it, it must be true, even if it's long before current events. You know this, Tempest. You're using the same argument yourself a few posts up.

That was for Neph, I was on my phone at the time and didn't quote him. But you're welcome to show me the inaccurate codex entry for Nox.



No, people in the actual game say shit that contradicts the quote. Not quite the same thing.







I employ many quotes, all of which you should be familiar with.



I'm well aware that you want to avoid that embarrassing fact.



Not really, no.

Besides which, even if that were all true, all of that is exponentially weaker than the ability to consume all of space in a Force storm. Palpatine is orders of magnitude more dangerous tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, people in the actual game say shit that contradicts the quote. Not quite the same thing.

Not entirely, I mean Vitiate got so fed up with the Sith he ditched them to go start a new empire with a new way of using the Force and blackjack and hookers. Its not just an opinion, the man objectively turned his back on the Sith.

Originally posted by Sinious
As Freshest tried to explain, codex entries give you a context of things throughout the game. Valkorion spent the majority of his life as a Sith diety, and naturally can be referred to as Sith on a vague platform such as a codex entry that (as proven above) can be referring to a specific timeline in present tense, which is clearly (for anyone who is willing to stop ignoring it) the case for Valkorion. No one's saying that he was never Sith, the argument here is that he stopped being a Sith, which is different.

Do you consider Darths Bane and Tenebrous Sith?

Originally posted by Sinious
I prefer holding on to Sidious' same level of power, storms, and huge advantage in melee.

Same level of power? Setting aside his vastly superior combat skill, the consistently higher caliber of his opponents, and his deep studies of the Force in "all its guises throughout the galaxy," Sheev has manipulated the Force on planetary and galactic scales and is factually capable of employing it on a cosmic scale.

He accomplished all of that in the span of a single human lifetime and without liberal external aid. He's an infinitely more impressive figure, honestly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not entirely, I mean Vitiate got so fed up with the Sith he ditched them to go start a new empire with a new way of using the Force and blackjack and hookers. Its not just an opinion, the man objectively turned his back on the Sith.

It's not the first time a Force user has become disenfranchised with current Sith philosophy, betrayed and tried to kill them all, and started his own thing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not the first time a Force user has become disenfranchised with current Sith philosophy, betrayed and tried to kill them all, and started his own thing.

Swing and a miss.

A better example would be: Say a sourcebook comes out that calls Rebels Maul "Darth Maul" and calls him a Sith. Would that make him a Sith despite him very clearly not being a Sith any more and him renouncing the Darth title?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Swing and a miss.

A better example would be: Say a sourcebook comes out that calls Rebels Maul "Darth Maul" and calls him a Sith. Would that make him a Sith despite him very clearly not being a Sith any more and him renouncing the Darth title?

Can't use an example that hasn't happened already, now can I?

But nah, it's a perfectly valid comparison. Your objections to it are personal, not logical. Whether or not you accept it is outta my hands.

It's not because........ he made a new order of Sith.

They're still Sith.

He's a Sith.

He's Darth Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not because........ he made a new order of Sith.

They're still Sith.

He's a Sith.

He's Darth Bane.



Getting hung up on that Darth title, aren't you?

Exar "Not Darth" Kun was Sith, too.

Valkoriate's public distaste for the Sith order as it stands doesn't mean anything. Bane was an apostate as well. Hell, even Tenebrous, who refers to Sith philosophy as "twaddle" that he transcended in The Tenebrous Way.

And of course, there's always Nihilus.

All three of them? Yup, still Sith.

I get it: you don't want Valkoriate to be identified as Sith because it's another thing that puts him under Sheev. But that's not my concern.

Remember when you actually made good arguments? That was fun.

Without saying any mean words that you'll misinterpret as anger, moron, you're being a moronic retarded babybrained idiot. Darth Bane killed the Sith and then kept being a Sith. He's the ****ing Sith'ari. He created the Rule of ****ing Two AS A SITH as the guidelines for his NEW https://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-siren.gifSITHhttps://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-siren.gif ORDER. The order that is made up of Sith. The Sith that he created. As he stayed a Sith. Because he's a Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiith.

How is that even the slightest bit similar to Valkorion creating an entirely new order of Force Users that have absolutely nothing to do with the Sith and then repeatedly saying he isn't a Sith? You goddamn spanner.

^^^

Exactly

Originally posted by Nephthys
Remember when you actually made good arguments? That was fun.

Without saying any mean words that you'll misinterpret as anger, moron, you're being a moronic retarded babybrained idiot. Darth Bane killed the Sith and then kept being a Sith. He's the ****ing Sith'ari. He created the Rule of ****ing Two AS A SITH as the guidelines for his NEW https://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-siren.gifSITHhttps://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-siren.gif ORDER. The order that is made up of Sith. The Sith that he created. As he stayed a Sith. Because he's a Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiith.

How is that even the slightest bit similar to Valkorion creating an entirely new order of Force Users that have absolutely nothing to do with the Sith and then repeatedly saying he isn't a Sith? You goddamn spanner.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/61841763.jpg

This particular outburst conjures vivid and fond memories from the TDK-Ledger chats.

Also, again:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/l2hy0rIuwyw/hqdefault.jpg

Yes, its totally similar to Darth Nihilus and his legions of Sith and Sith Apprentice. U R SMRRT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, its totally similar to Darth Nihilus and his legions of Sith and Sith Apprentice. U R SMRRT.

Mythological precedent for a guy who cares absolutely zilch for Sith teachings and philosophy but is identified as one nonetheless.

Kinda like Valky.

Strange, innit? stoned

Oh my ****ing god.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh my ****ing god.

It amuses me how much this upsets you.

True, it undermines your entire position on a certain topic, but it's not the first time this has happened.

I'm mourning you man. Don't do this. Come back to the light of reason. Nihilus still trained a Sith Apprentice, created a Sith holocron, commanded and lead Sith legions and hell he even spoke goddamn Sith. He never renounced the Sith like Valkorion did. Eventually he would have turned on them and eaten them when he had no choice but he didn't. It's a shitty comparison.

But I mean, if you don't want to count Nihilus that's fine by me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mythological precedent for a guy who cares absolutely zilch for Sith teachings and philosophy but is identified as one nonetheless.

Kinda like Valky.

Strange, innit? stoned
Darth Nihilus embraced Sith teachings when his conscious was intact but he evolved into a vessel of hunger with passage of time and his conscious began to erode accordingly. When the hunger became too strong, Sith teachings became irrelevant.

Even if Darth Nihilus is identified as a Sith; he is still perceived as an anomaly and excluded from rankings by many fans.

--

Valkorion abandoned Sith philosophy and created a new one, developing his powers accordingly (we witness Valkorion demonstrating some Light Side powers and some new powers in the Knights of the Fallen Empire content). He also lost his position as the Emperor of the Sith Empire as a consequence.

What light side powers are those, tbh?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That was for Neph, I was on my phone at the time and didn't quote him. But you're welcome to show me the inaccurate codex entry for Nox.

Once a slave, (Sith Inquisitor) overcame the brutal trials of Korriban, the schemes of rival Sith Lords and deadly Republic opponents to become a force few in the galaxy dared to challenge. Now a member of the Dark Council, the Sith Empire's ruling body, (Sith Inquisitor) is master of a vast domain, with apprentices and soldiers ready to fight and die at their master's bidding.

Of which pretty much all is now wrong.

And this Codex entry was updated for KOTFE and still describes outdated information?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm mourning you man. Don't do this. Come back to the light of reason. Nihilus still trained a Sith Apprentice, created a Sith holocron, commanded and lead Sith legions and hell he even spoke goddamn Sith. He never renounced the Sith like Valkorion did. Eventually he would have turned on them and eaten them when he had no choice but he didn't. It's a shitty comparison.

Valkoriate created and led a Sith empire for a millennium and a half. We know from sources ranging from Kreia to KOTOR sourcebook that everything about the Sith are "meaningless" to Nihilus, despite to whatever extent he employed their elements. He cares even less for them than Valkorion does. There's established symmetry there that you refuse to recognize because it suits your agenda.

It was introduced with KotFE, so obviously it's ironclad truth. Duh.

'Strap, link me to the codex entry.

Clearly hasn't been updated.

EDIT: Actually if it were introduced with KotFE that would make sense, considering it would be referring to the players status at the start of the game.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Valkoriate created and led a Sith empire for a millennium and a half. We know from sources ranging from Kreia to KOTOR sourcebook that everything about the Sith are "meaningless" to Nihilus, despite to whatever extent he employed their elements. He cares even less for them than Valkorion does. There's established symmetry there that you refuse to recognize because it suits your agenda.

"But I mean, if you don't want to count Nihilus either that's fine by me."

Valkorion specifically renounced the Sith Empire, they renounced him, he set up a competing Force Wielder Order. Nihilus didn't care about the Sith but he never actually left them or turned on them. But yeah, it's cool with me if we don't count Nihilus either. A lot of people don't.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Clearly hasn't been updated.

EDIT: Actually if it were introduced with KotFE that would make sense, considering it would be referring to the players status at the start of the game.
Much like Valkorion's codex was introduced right when we met him, Beni. Thanks for the support.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
'Strap, link me to the codex entry.
https://torcommunity.com/database/codex/tWnCen0/the+sith+inquisitor/

Thanks for the link. But it's not inaccurate, for reasons Beni already provided: at the start of the game, Nox was what the codex said he was.



Actually, it undermines you: the same Codex that identifies Valkorion as Sith is also the one that says he wants to be unburdened by archaic Sith principles. Which means he doesn't go on to care less about the Sith, he doesn't care about them at all as of the entry's existence... and it still calls him one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"But I mean, if you don't want to count Nihilus either that's fine by me."

Valkorion specifically renounced the Sith Empire, they renounced him, he set up a competing Force Wielder Order. Nihilus didn't care about the Sith but he never actually left them or turned on them. But yeah, it's cool with me if we don't count Nihilus either. A lot of people don't.

I do count Nihilus, because he's identified as Sith by sources that are a bit more authoritative than you or me. Just like Valk.

The fact that one bothered to change his party registration from Sith to Independent doesn't mean anything when neither of them claim any allegiance to it and one, Nihilus, never gave a shit to begin with.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Much like Valkorion's codex was introduced right when we met him, Beni. Thanks for the support.

https://torcommunity.com/database/codex/tWnCen0/the+sith+inquisitor/ Because Valkorion's mentality changes as the game progresses? Nah, Temp is on the money here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Actually, it undermines you: the same Codex that identifies Valkorion as Sith is also the one that says he wants to be unburdened by archaic Sith principles. Which means he doesn't go on to care less about the Sith, he doesn't care about them at all as of the entry's existence... and it still calls him one.

Damn, you didn't even address the point being made. You're grasping has only gotten more amusing as time has gone on. Doesn't really undermine my point at all.

Seems that Beni missed your point as well, 'Strap:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Valkorion's mentality changes as the game progresses? Nah, Temp is on the money here.

Setting aside my skepticism that you actually have one to make, I invite you to clear the air.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do count Nihilus, because he's identified as Sith by sources that are a bit more authoritative than you or me. Just like Valk.

The fact that one bothered to change his party registration from Sith to Independent doesn't mean anything when neither of them claim any allegiance to it and one, Nihilus, never gave a shit to begin with.

I dunno man, you're making an awfully good case here. You're convincing me, nice job.

Actually it does mean something. I means that Valkorion is no longer a member of the Sith Order. Also lol, Nihilus did claim allegiance to it. Hence why he was calling himself Darth Nihilus, trained a Sith apprentice, raised a legion of Sith followers, made a Sith holocron filled with Sith teachings up until the time he died. He was still a member of the Sith unlike Valkorion. God man, get a clue, you can't step to me on Kotor 2 shit. It just won't end well for you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Valkorion's mentality changes as the game progresses? Nah, Temp is on the money here.
Or you know, your information changes as the game progress like everyone else with two braincells to rub together. Information changes. Codex does not. You get now?

'Sup, Beefster.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I dunno man, you're making an awfully good case here. You're convincing me, nice job.

Actually it does mean something. I means that Valkorion is no longer a member of the Sith Order. Also lol, Nihilus did claim allegiance to it. Hence why he was calling himself Darth Nihilus, trained a Sith apprentice, raised a legion of Sith followers, made a Sith holocron filled with Sith teachings up until the time he died. He was still a member of the Sith unlike Valkorion. God man, get a clue, you can't step to me on Kotor 2 shit. It just won't end well for you.

From the KOTOR Campaign Guide, page 160:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/nihilus%20not%20caring_zpst2fccly2.png

You'll notice this sentiment is expressed as early as his first interaction with Traya. Sounds like your comprehension of that shitty game is lacking, which is genuinely depressing when one considers how many years you've dedicated to its study.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or you know, your information changes as the game progress like everyone else with two braincells to rub together. Information changes. Codex does not. You get now?

And yet the codex entry provides both critical pieces of information: Valkorion regards Sith principles as archaic and yet is still deemed an ancient Sith.

Nothing changes in this respect: not information and, consequently, not the codex.

Facebook? Lmfao, you get into the 21st century.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
From the KOTOR Campaign Guide, page 160:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/nihilus%20not%20caring_zpst2fccly2.png

You'll notice this sentiment is expressed as early as his first interaction with Traya. Sounds like your comprehension of that shitty game is lacking, which is genuinely depressing when one considers how many years you've dedicated to its study.

He's still a member of the Sith Order though. You can be a member of an organisation/party without actually caring about their ideals. Trump proves that. Nihilus still joined the Sith, called himself a Sith and used their teachings even if he didn't care about them himself. Unlike Valkorion though, Nihilus didn't leave the Sith, they didn't turn their backs on him, he didn't create a new organisation opposed to them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet the codex entry provides both critical pieces of information: Valkorion regards Sith principles as archaic and yet is still deemed an ancient Sith.

Sure, if we do like you done for over half a year now, and ignore context we could jump to these conclusions, but if we consider Valkorion was:

The Sith Emperor.
A god like figure to the Sith
born a member of the Sith species
only know to you, at this point five years ago, as a Sith

Than the codex will be labeled as such, not meaning Valkorion is literally a member of the Sith order, like pretty much everyone else in game keeps telling you he isn't, including the player on a few occasions. He doesn't even use the Force in the same way a Sith does. But none of that matters because of one sentence in the beginning of a codex entry in a game you haven't even played, as far as I know. Not that it really matters. You've never really had a leg to stand on with this.

What the hell are you even talking about? The codex never changes. Like every entry is static and will never modify ever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's still a member of the Sith Order though. You can be a member of an organisation/party without actually caring about their ideals. Trump proves that. Nihilus still joined the Sith, called himself a Sith and used their teachings even if he didn't care about them himself. Unlike Valkorion though, Nihilus didn't leave the Sith, they didn't turn their backs on him, he didn't create a new organisation opposed to them.

And you don't think Valkoriate utilizes or employs anything Sith-related at all after ruling them for 14 centuries? lawl

Nihilus is still deemed a Sith even though he personally doesn't give a shit about them at all. Just like Valk. And unlike Valk, he never gave a shit about them from the very beginning.

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
Sure, if we do like you done for over half a year now, and ignore context we could jump to these conclusions, but if we consider Valkorion was:

The Sith Emperor.
A god like figure to the Sith
born a member of the Sith species
only know to you, at this point five years ago, as a Sith

Than the codex will be labeled as such, not meaning Valkorion is literally a member of the Sith order, like pretty much everyone else in game keeps telling you he isn't, including the player on a few occasions. He doesn't even use the Force in the same way a Sith does. But none of that matters because of one sentence in the beginning of a codex entry in a game you haven't even played, as far as I know. Not that it really matters. You've never really had a leg to stand on with this.

Or we could read.

Funny how the entry on the Sith inquisitor mentions that he "was once a slave," yet Valkoriate's says he "is an ancient Sith" even though he's no longer a member of their government or biology.

You're free to ignore both precedent and the patently obvious. The fact that I haven't invested the same amount of time in the game as you have only serves to make your failure here all the more embarrassing.

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
What the hell are you even talking about? The codex never changes. Like every entry is static and will never modify ever.

What I'm talking about is the fact that the codex acknowledges Valkoriate's relationship with archaic Sith principles but still identifies him as Sith.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you don't think Valkoriate utilizes or employs anything Sith-related at all after ruling them for 14 centuries? lawl

Nihilus is still deemed a Sith even though he personally doesn't give a shit about them at all. Just like Valk. And unlike Valk, he never gave a shit about them from the very beginning.

In the same way a former boxer still knows how to box, sure. He still isn't employed as a boxer anymore though.

Right, because he's still actually a Sith. Are you just not getting this? Should I make you a diagram with Sith and Not-Sith columns? Would that make this easier for you to understand?

Sith:

Nihilus was still a Sith. He never left the Sith Order. His private thoughts don't matter. He was still a member of the Sith Order.

Not-Sith:

Valkorion is not a Sith. He left the Sith Order. The Sith are trying to kill him and have renounced him of his throne and status. His personal thoughts also do not matter. What he says and does, does matter though. He says that he's not a Sith repeatedly. Other people say he's not a Sith repeatedly. He was leading the Knights of Zakuul and thus was a member of their order. He was not a member of the Sith Order.

This is as simple as I can make it for you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or we could read.

Funny how the entry on the Sith inquisitor mentions that he "was once a slave," yet Valkoriate's says he "is an ancient Sith" even though he's no longer a member of their government or biology.

That's a pretty good argument, except I was talking abou their pressence on the Dark Council which no longer exists, not their life before the game even starts, lel.

Actually, you being free to ignore the actual story presented by the game for one piece of background information in a sentence in one codex entry with context for new players just makes you look obtuse. You've readily admitted at this point you're just ignoring everything else because it doesn't suite your argument, as far as I'm concerned. I for one realize what the codex says, but i also understand it's purpose and acknowledge what it likely means given all the other information I've been given. You on the other hand plug your ears because nothing else supports you, which is childish.

No, it identifies him as a Sith entity, and given he was born a member of the sith species, was their emperor, and now an entity, it doesn't have to mean he's a member of the Sith Order or follows the Sith philosophy. Especially given all the evidence that says otherwise. And it will never change, regardless of what new information is given. Because that is how the codex works.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the same way a former boxer still knows how to box, sure. He still isn't employed as a boxer anymore though.

Right, because he's still actually a Sith. Are you just not getting this? Should I make you a diagram with Sith and Not-Sith columns? Would that make this easier for you to understand?

Sith:

Nihilus was still a Sith. He never left the Sith Order. His private thoughts don't matter. He was still a member of the Sith Order.

Not-Sith:

Valkorion is not a Sith. He left the Sith Order. The Sith are trying to kill him and have renounced him of his throne and status. His personal thoughts also do not matter. What he says and does, does matter though. He says that he's not a Sith repeatedly. Other people say he's not a Sith repeatedly. He was leading the Knights of Zakuul and thus was a member of their order. He was not a member of the Sith Order.

This is as simple as I can make it for you.

'Facile' is a better description your post.

Here's a question that more accurately and economically captures your dilemma: Which character doesn't give a shit about the Sith as an organization and philosophy... and is yet still identified as one?

The correct answer is: both.

Both of them.

Yeah, I'm done humoring you now. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling me.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's a pretty good argument,

http://i.imgur.com/IP4WlHn.gif

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
except I was talking abou their pressence on the Dark Council which no longer exists, not their life before the game even starts, lel.



Originally posted by FreshestStrap
Actually, you being free to ignore the actual story presented by the game for one piece of background information in a sentence in one codex entry with context for new players just makes you look obtuse. You've readily admitted at this point you're just ignoring everything else because it doesn't suite your argument, as far as I'm concerned. I for one realize what the codex says, but i also understand it's purpose and acknowledge what it likely means given all the other information I've been given. You on the other hand plug your ears because nothing else supports you, which is childish.

An ironic accusation, coming from one whose entire agenda here is to trumpet Valkoriate.

Originally posted by FreshestStrap
No, it identifies him as a Sith entity, and given he was born a member of the sith species, was their emperor, and now an entity, it doesn't have to mean he's a member of the Sith Order or follows the Sith philosophy. Especially given all the evidence that says otherwise. And it will never change, regardless of what new information is given. Because that is how the codex works.

And given that Valkoriate is no longer a member of the species or government by the time of the codex entry, the fact that other codex entries acknowledge changing circumstances (e.g., Nox "once" being a slave), and ample precedent in the form of Nihilus and, to lesser extents, Bane and Tenebrous, I'd say your entire argument crumbles under anything approaching more than a passing glance.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do you consider Darths Bane and Tenebrous Sith? You're gonna have to explain how they're relevant here. Well all the jokes aside I have Valky and Sidious on the same tier in the force, but yeah, multiple force storms are still more haxx than Valk's abilities.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, people in the actual game say shit that contradicts the quote. Not quite the same thing.

Yeah, you're right. Valkorion obviously has the, "I am no Sith" "I am beyond light or dark" and "mastering the dark side isn't enough" quotes, along with Satele stating, "Valkorion's change within you is unprecedented. You'll never truly be Jedi or Sith." Along with the fact that unlike, say, Bane, Valkorion shits on sith teachings and created a force using order that draws on neither the light nor dark sides of the force. Furthermore, Satele and Marr imply that the only way to defeat the Eternal Empire etc is to move "beyond" mere light or dark. Not doing so is the reason the Eternal Empire dominated the Republic and Empire, because the former had a unique and superior philosophy, again according to Satele and Marr. All of which, imo, is more consistent evidence of Valkorion not being a mere dark sider/sith lord.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I employ many quotes, all of which you should be familiar with.

Other than Sidious consuming all of space?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm well aware that you want to avoid that embarrassing fact.

Sure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really, no.

Besides which, even if that were all true, all of that is exponentially weaker than the ability to consume all of space in a Force storm. Palpatine is orders of magnitude more dangerous tbh.

You're right, my bad. Palpatine would casually oneshot the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by Sinious
but yeah, multiple force storms are still more haxx than Valk's abilities.

Valkorion's Spirit haxx >

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, you're right. Valkorion obviously has the, "I am no Sith" "I am beyond light or dark" and "mastering the dark side isn't enough" quotes, along with Satele stating, "Valkorion's change within you is unprecedented. You'll never truly be Jedi or Sith." Along with the fact that unlike, say, Bane, Valkorion shits on sith teachings and created a force using order that draws on neither the light nor dark sides of the force. Furthermore, Satele and Marr imply that the only way to defeat the Eternal Empire etc is to move "beyond" mere light or dark. Not doing so is the reason the Eternal Empire dominated the Republic and Empire, because the former had a unique and superior philosophy, again according to Satele and Marr. All of which, imo, is more consistent evidence of Valkorion not being a mere dark sider/sith lord.


Looks like you are back in the game.

I've always been a Valkorion worshipper.

LeGenD wouldn't know. He still believes he runs things.

He can keep that illusion.

Is it too conspiratorial to think that Bioware pulled that "I'm no Sith" gig to make Valkorion > Sidious?

Not at all. I thought that immediately when KOTFE came out. I mean, what are the odds they pull this shit out of their ass to not do so?

Because SWTOR's Sith are terrible?

Skillz, are you after the SWTOR throne?

I'm already on it, Kek.

Lel.

There are other beings that rival you tbh:

JKBart is the spiritual leader of KMC whose wisdom surpasses all when it comes to SWTOR

Also Legend who embodies all the evil and chaos that SWTOR wank emits

This regime will last until this forum dies, Sinious. I've ensured this.

Don't you think he should at least defeat Tempest to legitimize the title?

Tempest is already a corpse, and he's already admitted his time is done. This forum is ours now, as it always should have been. You can remain in the past...or you could join us. Your choice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Tempest is already a corpse, and he's already admitted his time is done. This forum is ours now, as it always should have been. You can remain in the past...or you could join us. Your choice. I thought I was already in the brigade, given our past agenda.

But you've since retreated into Sheev's bosom. Do not let it be so.

Your betrayal was not unexpected, Sinious, but it can still be forgiven. You need only admit Valkorion's superiority, and all will be forgotten.

i want to be saved

Then acknowledge my superiority...

Damn, Temp. Come up with something better than Sids > all sith or Sidious is a universe buster. Do it fast tbh.

He hasn't an optimal line of logic other than illogic itself. He has lost.

Originally posted by Sinious
Damn, Temp. Come up with something better than Sids > all sith or Sidious is a universe buster. Do it fast tbh.

Pfeh! I do not compete for souls or for loyalty. Neither does Sheev. The arguments are there. The heretic leader is someone who bent the knee before me already and who now openly disregards facts.

Plus LeGenD is their mascot.

It's a shit show. You're welcome to it.

LeGenD is not our mascot. He's the special kid no one has the heart to turn away.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pfeh! I do not compete for souls or for loyalty. Neither does Sheev. The arguments are there. The heretic leader is someone who bent the knee before me already and who now openly disregards facts.

Plus LeGenD is their mascot.

It's a shit show. You're welcome to it. I'm not asking you to compete for that. Strong arguments against Sheev are made and I'm asking you to defend him properly and save an innocent soul as a bonus.

You're right temp, I'm a bastard. Sidious is fully and always capable of destroying the universe.

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm not asking you to compete for that. Strong arguments against Sheev are made and I'm asking you to defend him properly

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7gk9mlUyc1qcj2buo1_500.jpg

Long arguments have been made, sure. Strong? Nah. The cacophony of anguished protests from the heretics should not be mistaken for compelling arguments.

As far as my defense of him is concerned, I've done my duty. It's not my fault my champion has better accolades and feats to his name and I won't apologize for judiciously employing the tools at my disposal.

Their failure is theirs alone.

Originally posted by Sinious
and save an innocent soul as a bonus.

To renounce His Imperial Majesty is heresy. Heretics are not innocent. uhuh

Temp can you link a thread where you defended Sidious against Valkorian. I'm on the fence here and I could use some convincing.

Just accept Valkorion's superiority or equality to DE Sidious and it'll be fine.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Temp can you link a thread where you defended Sidious against Valkorian. I'm on the fence here and I could use some convincing.

There's not the one thread. It always spills over to others.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7gk9mlUyc1qcj2buo1_500.jpg

Long arguments have been made, sure. Strong? Nah. The cacophony of anguished protests from the heretics should not be mistaken for compelling arguments.

As far as my defense of him is concerned, I've done my duty. It's not my fault my champion has better accolades and feats to his name and I won't apologize for judiciously employing the tools at my disposal.

Their failure is theirs alone. Yet there is still a challenge made. The opposition is saying that Valkorion has better showings. Skillz carefully listed them and one could actually argue that they are superior to at least ROTS Sidious's showings. It's not your duty to make a case for Sidious of course, I just think you can do much better than "universe buster" and "Valky's totally a sith" arguments. That just happened in the past and it was partially your fault.

If he could do better, he would have. Much like Sidious with his shit showing against Luke.