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Who takes this?

Revan.

Pre-Nathema Vitiate was noticed by Ragnos and could cut some chef-tier Sith Lords off from the Force. He stomps.

Revan, IMO.

up

Originally posted by Syndicate
Revan.

Revan one-shots.

LMAO @ Nova.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Pre-Nathema Vitiate was noticed by Ragnos and could cut some chef-tier Sith Lords off from the Force. He stomps.

The notion is hilarious, but the argument is solid.

I was joking. Revan Reborn was contending with a much more powerful Vitiate on a DS nexus. This Vitiate wouldn't know of Revan's ability to resist his Mind Control, so he'd attempt it anyway, which gives Revan a chance to do his "twin rivers" attack again.

Revan may well win this one, in fact.

Revan wins with ease this time.

It's not with ease, lol.

Revan nearly defeated a far more powerful version of Vitiate on a DS nexus, as you yourself said. Pre-Natheme ritual Vitiate would have been far weaker than he was during the duel with Revan. If the 8000 Sith Lords Vitiate ate weren't all Darovit anyway.

I recall a source stating they were the most powerful Sith in the galaxy or something.

Never said Revan loses, just that it was a fair point. Revan definitely wins, and Vitiate using his TP gives Revan extra time to build power.

I'm referring to DarthBane77.

Revan never "nearly defeated" Vitiate. He exploited Vitiate's Mind Control failure and deflected a few bolts. So he pushed Vitiate back. When Vitiate charged up his Storm, Revan was stomped and needed two diversions before he could heal himself from his injuries.

Lol "stomped", that's why Revan knocked Vitiate on his ass a couple times right? Regardless, Vitiate pre-Nathema might have had a strong connection to the Force; but it was nothing like it was post-Nathema. He absorbed the power of 8000 Sith Lords, the most powerful of them that were left and absorbed their power. The fact that Revan contended with Vitiate even AFTER Vitiate had attained that power would suggest that Vitiate pre-Ritual was nothing to Revan.

Did you even read what I said? Revan was stomped when he tried to contain Vitiate's Storm, not in the overall fight. Don't laugh unless you know what people are talking about.

Regardless, Revan had only contended with a fraction of Vitiate's power beforehand (ie. a few bolts which he could slap back). Once Vitiate unleashed all of his power (ie. the Storm), Revan was swiftly annihilated. That was hinted at already when Revan could barely even Push back an Imperial Guard under Vitiate's protection.

And no, the 8000 Sith Lords part doesn't suggest that there's such a huge gap that Revan can go from being unable to compare to Vitiate's full power to suddenly stomping him. I'll remind you that as a child, Vitiate Severed and Mind Controlled his Sith Lord father. A hundred years of growth and study would only see him become incredibly powerful.

Revan wins, but it's a fight.

I'll come down a notch and say that Revan might drip a single bead of sweat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Did you even read what I said? Revan was stomped when he tried to contain Vitiate's Storm, not in the overall fight. Don't laugh unless you know what people are talking about.

Regardless, Revan had only contended with a fraction of Vitiate's power beforehand (ie. a few bolts which he could slap back). Once Vitiate unleashed all of his power (ie. the Storm), Revan was swiftly annihilated. That was hinted at already when Revan could barely even Push back an Imperial Guard under Vitiate's protection.
LMFAOKEKROFLAFRICADYINGCRYINGLOLMFAO WHAT

You're going overboard with this "Revan pushed Vitiate hard" thing. Vitiate was pushed to the point where he had to unleash his full power, but when that happened, Revan stood no chance.

Literally, the fight is Revan getting hurled back by Vitiate's TK, then Vitiate uses the opportunity to attempt Mind Control. Since Revan has already learned how to counter it, he uses his "Force in Balance" technique to throw the unprepared Vitiate backwards (that would happen here as well - fair enough). After that, Vitiate sends a few casual bolts at Revan that Revan ducks, blocks and deflects - sending Vitiate further back.

After that, Vitiate decides to go all-out and charges up his Lightning Storm. Revan tries to contain it and failed so utterly that one might well call it a stomp then and there.

So as I said, Revan wasn't stomped in the overall fight, but he was stomped at the end when Vitiate unleashed all of his might.

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My point is that if Vitiate (even if it's Pre-Nathema) unleashed all of his might here as well, Revan wouldn't be easily discarding it like you're suggesting

Obviously anything less from Pre-Nathema Vitiate would fail utterly. And I already gave Revan the win.

I know. That was from the viewpoint that the fight lasted so long.

My reconsideration of the fight leads me to believe that they're not in the same tier. Granted, the nexus was in play, but Revan could barely even Push an Imperial Guard in Vitiate's vicinity. Likewise, Vitiate's Storm absolutely molested him. Even on neutral ground, that Storm would overwhelm him.

Assuming that the nexus went both ways (Revan was hindered, Vitiate was amped), then Revan might be a tier or two beneath Vitiate. Probably the latter, especially in regards to raw power.

... what? Revan handled the storm fine. He absorbed all of it to the point where he physically handled the rest. In other words, he's close to his power, but not *quite* equal. If he was "molested," he would have been ashed.

He wasn't utterly obliterated like Nyriss, but he was cooked pretty damn badly and left helpless on the ground. I mean, normally, you'd consider that a stomp, lmfao.

Granted, he did better than that Strike Team in TOR. But that should've been obvious given how much higher you rate Revan than them, and that's not even accounting for the fact that the Emperor had three centuries of growth since.

Revan was left almost defenseless with more and more waves of Vitiate's power pouring into him. When T3 interfered he was too weak to even move so he resorted to healing himself. If not gor T3 he would have died, can't really interpret that any other way Ant. I'm reading the fight right now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He wasn't utterly obliterated like Nyriss, but he was cooked pretty damn badly and left helpless on the ground. I mean, normally, you'd consider that a stomp, lmfao.
Not at all. Note the attack itself was "infinitely" more powerful than that which was capable of ashing a Darth Maul-tier character.

Revan reduced that, which would have frankly ashed probably even Dooku-tier beings, to where all he got was like second-degree burns.

And considering how radically different ashing someone is from second-degree burns, he nearly completely matched Vitiate's power, but was *just* short.

He needed both T3 and Meetra as diversions, yeah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan was left almost defenseless with more and more waves of Vitiate's power pouring into him. When T3 interfered he was too weak to even move so he resorted to healing himself. If not gor T3 he would have died, can't really interpret that any other way Ant. I'm reading the fight right now.
I'm referring the initial assault, which was Vitiate gathering his power for a duration against Revan gathering his power for a duration. Of course once Revan was injured, he was out.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not at all. Note the attack itself was "infinitely" more powerful than that which was capable of ashing a Darth Maul-tier character.

Revan reduced that, which would have frankly ashed probably even Dooku-tier beings, to where all he got was like second-degree burns.

And considering how radically different ashing someone is from second-degree burns, he nearly completely matched Vitiate's power, but was *just* short.

Revan was going to die as well. What would've happened would be similar to the part when Vitiate attacked Revan with Lightning after Scourge betrayed him. Revan's defenses were completely overwhelmed and he was powerless to defend himself from oncoming attacks. He was about to die - both T3 and Meetra gave him the diversions that stopped that from happening and allowed him to Heal.

I wouldn't say "just short". Maybe not two tiers - I'll reduce it to just one, for the sake of the nexus. But there's a pretty noticeable disparity there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm referring the initial assault, which was Vitiate gathering his power for a duration against Revan gathering his power for a duration. Of course once Revan was injured, he was out.

Yes and Revan did attempt to absorb it but he failed, when T3 interfered with their prolonged exchange Revan fell back motionless and couldn't move afterwards. That's not exactly a success but I wouldn't call it a stomp either.

@SunRazer

Again, I'm referring to the initial attack. The initial attack overwhelmed Revan's defenses, no shit, hence why Vitiate continued to unleash a steady stream of lightning against him. However, the initial attack had them both charging their energies for the same amount of time (actually Vitiate moreso, technically), and then duking it out, in which Revan spared himself from incineration to second-degree burns. There IS parity in that.

To put simply in numbers:

Let's say Vitiate's attack yielded 100 pts.

Revan's defense was 95 pts.

The 5 pt difference yielded second-degree burns, and then with Revan's 95 gone, Vitiate continued with a steady 2 pts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes and Revan did attempt to absorb it but he failed, when T3 interfered with their prolonged exchange Revan fell back motionless and couldn't move afterwards. That's not exactly a success but I wouldn't call it a stomp either.
He absorbed enough of it for parity to be established, as I explained above.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@SunRazer

Again, I'm referring to the initial attack. The initial attack overwhelmed Revan's defenses, no shit, hence why Vitiate continued to unleash a steady stream of lightning against him. However, the initial attack had them both charging their energies for the same amount of time (actually Vitiate moreso, technically), and then duking it out, in which Revan spared himself from incineration to second-degree burns. There IS parity in that.

To put simply in numbers:

Let's say Vitiate's attack yielded 100 pts.

Revan's defense was 95 pts.

The 5 pt difference yielded second-degree burns, and then with Revan's 95 gone, Vitiate continued with a steady 2 pts.

That's not parity, but I'll rescind what I said about it being a practical stomp earlier. I'm still not putting them on the same tier, but maybe only one tier's difference now. I might consider them being on the same tier off-nexus.

I think it's near parity. The difference is practically not relevant when considering the nexus and Vitiate channeling for a longer time.

You make it sound like the burns Revan suffered were negligible. They were enough to prevent him from standing up, lol.

A lot of that was due to the constant 2 pt stream following and the fact it heated his metal mask.

Again, the energy difference in ashing someone to second-degree burns is massive.

So exposure to 176 degrees F for .1 seconds still yields curable third-degree burns. But then at 200, it's incurable. In contrast, a body is ashed in 1400 degrees F for 1 to 3 hours.

So yeah, massive distinction.

Interesting, you have Nyriss as Maul-tier. That's a bit lower than I was thinking, actually.

Anyways, obviously Revan wouldn't be incinerated by Vitiate. I'm not saying it's that big.

How many tiers' difference do you think it takes to completely incinerate someone?

Well as I highlighted above, there seems to be an unprecedented difference in energy output between burning and incineration.

Revan incinerating Darth Nyriss frankly suggests he (and Vitiate) are a lot more powerful than we give them credit for.

You didn't answer my question on how many tiers apart you need to be to incinerate someone.

Vitiate's fine where he is (sub-Plagueis ). Revan might need to move up.

Vitiate and Plagueis could be rough equals, with Plagueis edging it out.

And it depends on what you consider tiers, but going by the standard 10-tier system, I'd say at *least* 3.

Plagueis is more powerful than even vanilla SWTOR Vitiate - probably only by the slightest of margins, though.

And... interesting. Though with respect to Force abilities, Sidious and Plagueis etc. are many tiers above the likes of Maul, so them incinerating him would be entirely plausible.

I'm not even sure there's a tier difference between novel and SWTOR. It's there, but not that big.

You think lowly of a three-century timeframe for improvement, lol. Revan grew noticeably in that time by just leeching some things from Vitiate's mind

Also, in the midst of that three hundred years, the Sith reclaimed Korriban and other Sith worlds in the galaxy, and the Sith secrets there would've been made available for Vitiate to study once again. We also know he had spies within the Jedi, so they might have brought things for him to study as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Though with respect to Force abilities, Sidious and Plagueis etc. are many tiers above the likes of Maul, so them incinerating him would be entirely plausible.
Well if Revan and Vitiate can ash Nyriss, they can ash Maul, yeah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well if Revan can ash Nyriss, they can ash Maul, yeah.

Don't you have Anakin over Revan in raw power? So technically, you reckon Anakin can incinerate Maul as well, if he had the right powers?

Or worse, that if he had mastery over Tutaminis, that he could successfully absorb Vitiate's Lightning?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate and Plagueis could be rough equals, with Plagueis edging it out.

And it depends on what you consider tiers, but going by the standard 10-tier system, I'd say at *least* 3. Really? You have Plagueis that much above Revan that you think he could pass Vitiate?

Pre-Nathema Vitiate is still weaker than Ludo Kressh, unless there's some new quote that I don't know about. Revan disintegrates him to a pile of ash.