Palpatine - cheating corporeal death and abilities outside a corporeal vessel

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S_W_LeGenD
Revelations:-

Palpatine acquired the ability of Essence Transfer at some point:

Utilizing long lost magic and science of cloning, Palpatine created a steady supply of clones, into which he could throw his being and thus rule the galaxy forever.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

After experiencing his original corporeal death, Palpatine shifted his essence into one of his clones on Byss:

It was into one of these clones, located on Palpatine's hidden retreat world, Byss, that Palpatine projected himself.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

The journey towards the first clone was far from easy for Palpatine though:

Following the destruction of the Death Star, Palpatine's consciousness spent over a year drifting across space. On reaching Byss, he awakened and recuperated in the body of a clone, one of many kept in reserve.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

--- --- ---

However, Palpatine's clones were not perfect and he was in search of a true vessel:

Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster. The Emperor needed a new template, a new, powerful body to inhabit and consolidate his control over the galaxy.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

Therefore, Palpatine had set his sights on Leia's newborn:

Because the clones can only contain his evil for limited time, Palpatine strives to take possession of a strong Jedi body. The unborn Solo child would be that vessel, and Luke Skywalker would aid Palpatine in getting it.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

--

Palpatine also knew that Luke's sister, Leia Organa Solo, would attempt to rescue her brother, and unwittingly hand over that which Palpatine truly desired.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

Palpatine was largely helpless without access to a corporeal vessel and a Jedi infant would be an easy target for long-term possession:

Palpatine could only rule the galaxy while he yet lived, and his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced state. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he would create a new, endless sources of clones. Of course there was no better candidates than the children of Luke Skywalker's sister, Leia Organa Solo

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

Palpatine also lost much of his supply of clones to sabotaging efforts of Luke Skywalker and Camor Jax and had only one clone left as a consequence:

Before the decrepit Palpatine could use his sorcery to switch into one of his new clones, a grim Luke Skywalker marched into the laboratory chamber and smashed tank after tank. But Palpatine succeeded in transferring his consciousness into one of the last remaining clones, a strong and agile fifteen year old. Filled with dark side power, the reborn Emperor engaged Skywalker in a ferocious lightsaber duel and forced the Jedi Knight into submission.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--

Resisting the Dark Side one last time, Luke was able to destroy almost all of the Emperor's clones-in-waiting before he succumbed to Palpatine's strength.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--

Though Palpatine seemed to be winning the war of his conquest, his final cloned body has begun to fail him, aging at a rapid rate and eaten from the inside by a sabotage of Camor Jax. He tried to clone other bodies so that he could resurrect himself again, but Jax's manipulations had tainted even the genetic source material. Palpatine's scientists and physicians could offer no solution.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--- --- ---

Palpatine could not resist the pull of the netherworld (or void) forever, therefore possessing a corporeal vessel was becoming a necessity for him because his current (and last) cloned body was in decline:

The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

In desperation, Palpatine initially sought advice from the Sith spirits on Korriban about how to halt the decay of his current (cloned) flesh but their collective response was a vision of an Jedi infant:

Palpatine traveled to Korriban, the hidden world-crypt of the Sith Lords and Palpatine's private place of power. Here among the vaults containing the mortal remains of thousands of Sith lords, Palpatine would ask for the Sith spirit's help in halting the decay of his flesh. Instead the spirits fed him a vision of the infant Anakin Solo. Palpatine would have to transfer his spirit into the child.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

Palpatine was running out of options now and proceeded to acquire infant Anakin Solo in Onderon. Palpatine attempted to subdue Leia Organa Solo first but she was stronger now and repulsed his attack successfully; this setback backfired on Palpatine and he was significant weakened as a consequence:

Journeying to Onderon where Leia Organa Solo had taken sanctuary among the beastriders, Palpatine disguised as a pilgrim and crept inside to confront the mother and child. But Leia had grown strong in the Force under the tutelage of her brother and repulsed Palpatine's attack, weakening his body considerably.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- --- ---

Even in a significantly compromised condition, Palpatine still had some offense left in him, killing two padawans in his way:

But Palaptine's resolve was powerful enough to fight back, and as Luke Skywalker's Jedi trainees filed in to protect Anakin, Palpatine cut them down. In a final bid Palpatine reached out to grasp Anakin, but was shot down by Anakin's father Han.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--- and mortally wounded two more:

Rayf Yasnna and Empatoyajous Brand were both mortally wounded in the confrontation.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--- --- ---

Palpatine eventually lost his final clone during the ongoing confrontation but his essence departed his body and attempted to possess the child in a last ditch effort to cheat death. Unfortunately for him, a mortally wounded Jedi named Empatojayos Brand intercepted his essence and doomed it into the void forever with his own death afterwards.

But as his spirit rose from his body and shot towards the defenseless child, the Jedi Empatojayos Brand, mortally wounded during the battle, intercepted it and took Palpatine within himself. As Brand died, he took Palpatine with him, and the once-great Emperor of a million worlds was no more.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

--

As the Emperor fell towards death yet again, he attempted to send his spirit into the baby Anakin - but Empatojayos Brand intercepted the dark essence. Clasping himself to the light, Brand held the Emperor's presence within his body as they both succumbed to death.

With all of his clones destroyed, Emperor Palpatine was finally defeated.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

--

Before his soul could enter Anakin's body, Palpatine was intercepted by a newfound Jedi Empatojayos Brand. Cut off from host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by madness that was the Dark Side. After so many decades of bloodshed, the Emperor was truly dead.

Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

S_W_LeGenD
Observations:

- Palpatine demonstrated the capability to cheat corporeal death by retaining his essence (Legends only).

- Palpatine could not avoid the pull of netherworld forever but he could sustain himself in this form for a year.

- Palpatine could traverse space in disembodied form but he was extremely slow to reach a desired destination in this manner.

- Palpatine demonstrated the ability to shift his essence into cloned bodies but he had limitations in regards to acquiring a living corporeal vessel.

- Palpatine was not able to affect the external environment in profound ways in disembodied form and lacked the strength to defeat a dying Jedi in this form.

SunRazer
Cue the Valkorion comparison?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Cue the Valkorion comparison?
Yes, that would be my next work.

Afterwards, I will create a blog (on Comicvine) and draw a comparison of the two in disembodied form in it. Time has come to call a spade a spade.

EDIT: If you have any information to share, please do.

SunRazer
How did you manage to quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia and miss this:

"Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

You also missed the part where it took every Jedi who had gone before to keep Palpatine down forever.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
How did you manage to quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia and miss this:

"Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This escaped my attention. Thanks for sharing.

I covered it in my remarks though: "Palpatine demonstrated the capability to cheat corporeal death by retaining his essence (Legends only)."

Originally posted by SunRazer
You also missed the part where it required every Jedi who had gone before to keep Palpatine down.
This was Brand's belief. We don't witness any Jedi spirits manifesting on the scene and aiding Brand in defeating Palpatine.

However, giving it some benefit of doubt, it can be asserted that Jedi spirits prevented return of Palpatine from the netherworld ever again.

This cannot be overlooked:

The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death.

Taken from Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

SunRazer
No, the quote mentions specifically that through sheer will, Palpatine was able to "escape the maddening, bodiless existence of the void." That's impressive.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Fair enough. I will cover it in the blog.

S_W_LeGenD
More:

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

S_W_LeGenD
I created the blog: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

Time for critics to bend the knee. smokin'

Trocity
Originally posted by SunRazer
How did you manage to quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia and miss this:

"Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

You also missed the part where it took every Jedi who had gone before to keep Palpatine down forever.

Because that would be giving Sidious praise.

His goal here is to attempt to shit on Palpatine and pump up Valkorion, we all know this.

The_Tempest
It's so weird to see Leg. appropriate many of my phrases.

I think he wants to be me, which is the deepest insult I've ever been paid.

It might actually legitimately hurt my feelings.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Trocity
Because that would be giving Sidious praise.

His goal here is to attempt to shit on Palpatine and pump up Valkorion, we all know this.
My blog covers that information and it is free from bias and hyperboles for both characters. It is a strictly critical analysis. I am calling a spade a spade here.

Read the blog before passing silly remarks.

NewGuy01
A couple of notes:

1.) Vitiate's disembodied spirit also never directly showed the capability to attack someone outside of possession and similar practices.

2.) When the devouring of Ziost occurred, Vitiate wasn't exactly formless; he possessed the physical form of an entire population that may have participated in the act.

It does seem like the spending too much time without corporeal form may drive Palpatine to lose his mind, but as you pointed out he was able to survive for over a year without a host, so it's only speculatively relevant. I wonder if he was still being fed by Byss' population whilst disembodied.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's so weird to see Leg. appropriate many of my phrases.

I think he wants to be me, which is the deepest insult I've ever been paid.

It might actually legitimately hurt my feelings.
Bending the knee is a phrase relevant for Valkorion, not Palpatine.

You think that only you can come up with phrases?

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A couple of notes:

1.) Vitiate's disembodied spirit also never directly showed the capability to attack someone outside of possession and similar practices.

He did apparently off a bunch of people on Yavin when he was "revived".

NewGuy01
There did seem to be some sort of explosion-y thingie when he revived, but if I'm honest I don't have any idea what actually happened or why in that particular case.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A couple of notes:

1.) Vitiate's disembodied spirit also never directly showed the capability to attack someone outside of possession and similar practices.
My friend, you are wrong about this.

Valkorion, in disembodied form, attacked the Outlander twice (first time when he forcefully bind himself to the Outlander and second time to test the Outlander's abilities ). Valkorion also left the Outlander after strengthening the latter's bond with the Force. But he might return at some point, we don't know.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
2.) When the devouring of Ziost occurred, Vitiate wasn't exactly formless; he possessed the physical form of an entire population that may have participated in the act.
You can say that but it is a feat that he performed without using a Voice.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It does seem like the spending too much time without corporeal form may drive Palpatine to lose his mind, but as you pointed out he was able to survive for over a year without a host, so it's only speculatively relevant.
Yes.

He was powerful enough to resist the pull for a long period of time but not forever.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I wonder if he was still being fed by Byss' population whilst disembodied.
Interesting point.

Will look into it.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend, you are wrong.

Valkorion, in disembodied form, attacked the Outlander twice (first time when he forcefully bind himself to the Outlander and second time to test Outlander's abiltiies ). Valkorion left the Outlander after strengthening the latter's bond with the Force. But he might return at some point, we don't know.

Yes, we do know that he'll return. Second, you can't exactly broke none of that wasn't just going on inside your head. It's like saying that vision of Vaylin in the cave actually TK'd the Outlander because everyone else can. Visions are visions.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion, in disembodied form, attacked the Outlander twice (first time when he forcefully bind himself to the Outlander

Again, thats a possession-related ability. It's not much different from what Sidious did to Brand, no?



I thought it was agreed upon that the scene in question was only within the Outlander's mind.



Mhm.

Another observation: Just like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun, Vitiate also chose to bind his vulnerable spirit to a temple after his voice was destroyed. From this I can infer two things. One is that, at least pre-Ziost, Valkorion is very similar to Sidious in his reluctant to remain unbound for long periods of time. Two, it's possible that like Exar Kun, Valkorion channeled his power through the temple to achieve some of his feats on Yavin IV.



Please do share if you find anything relevant.

S_W_LeGenD

NewGuy01
I shot out another reply last page if you missed it, LeG.

FreshestSlice
How does any of that show this wasn't happening in the Outlander's mind?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I created the blog: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cheating-corporeal-death-and-abilities-outside-a-c/126610/

Time for critics to bend the knee. smokin'
LMFAO that was hilarious.

And remember Legend, if anyone ever concedes to you on anything they have therefore bent the knee and is therefore wrong in any argument with you ever from then on.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, thats a possession-related ability. It's not much different from what Sidious did to Brand, no?
Yes, the Binding effort is a possession-related ability.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
There did seem to be some sort of explosion-y thingie when he revived, but if I'm honest I don't have any idea what actually happened or why in that particular case.
It seems like a residual effect of Valkorion's teleportation effort in spiritual form.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I thought it was agreed upon that the scene in question was only within the Outlander's mind.
No.

This time, it was real.

Otherwise, the Outlander's bond with the Force was not strengthened.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mhm.

Another observation: Just like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun, Vitiate also chose to bind his vulnerable spirit to a temple after his voice was destroyed. From this I can infer two things. One is that, at least pre-Ziost, Valkorion is very similar to Sidious in his reluctant to remain unbound for long periods of time. Two, it's possible that like Exar Kun, Valkorion channeled his power through the temple to achieve some of his feats on Yavin IV.
This is also an interesting observation. However, nothing implies that Valkorion channeled his power through the Temple to achieve some of his feats on Yavin 4.

Yes, (pre-Ziost) Valkorion was seemingly reluctant to remain unbound for a long period of time after suffering setbacks earlier. He arrived on Yavin 4 to recuperate and recover in time.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Please do share if you find anything relevant.
Sure.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How does any of that show this wasn't happening in the Outlander's mind?
So how would you explain the Outlander experiencing winds, being knocked unconscious twice, attempt to call for help during the ordeal and experience vision of Vaylin in the cave? Its all acting?

Satele Shan and Darth Marr confirm Valkorion's actions and also confirm that Vaylin was a vision.

Valkorion is an entity, you can't expect him to be logical and mortal with his abilities.

NewGuy01
Not necessarily. The change could have been in mind rather than body; both seem to be connected to one's bond with the Force. Alternatively, there's nothing to say that his physical body wasn't affected by Valkorion's gift while the Outlander was trapped in his own mind.



You're right, it's only an inference based on visuals and similar situations with Exar Kun. But unless there's contrary evidence, I don't think anything invalidates it as a claim.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how would you explain the Outlander experiencing winds, being knocked unconscious twice, attempt to call for help during the ordeal and experience vision of Vaylin in the cave? Its all acting?

Satele Shan and Darth Marr confirm Valkorion's actions and also confirm that Vaylin was a vision.

Valkorion is an entity, you can't expect him to be logical and mortal with his abilities.
Because it's all happening in their head and Satele and Marr are puppets.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because it's all happening in their head and Satele and Marr are puppets.
I am not buying it.

NewGuy01
An alternative explanation then is that the Outlander *actually* wakes up in reality after he falls unconscious in his mind.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not buying it.
That's cool. Your explanation for why no one noticed Valkorion throwing around trees?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bending the knee is a phrase relevant for Valkorion, not Palpatine.

You think that only you can come up with phrases?

Because the phrase is commonly used by me, which means you're paying far too close attention to me.

I find your idolatry and imitation uncomfortable.

Beniboybling
I was wondering when this argument would be finally made, perhaps I'll post my thoughts.

FreshestSlice
Yeah, that still doesn't get into why they're impersonators, and no, it really doesn't. Their failures against the Eternal Empire's unlimited army shouldn't make them want you to take said unlimited army. If anything, they should want you to destroy it.

Selenial
thumb up

Satele didn't lose to the Sith Empire, turn around and say "you know what we need? More rage."

FreshestSlice
In the game files they are labeled Marr Imposter and Satele Imposter. And Marr flat out tells you that you need to take the throne, and it's your destiny. That and the Force's will needs a commander, which just happens to be you. Not like Valkorion at all.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's cool. Your explanation for why no one noticed Valkorion throwing around trees?
Here:

"What is this? Another illusion? (The Outlander)

"The time for fantasy is over. What happens now is quite real." (Valkorion)

As for the Outlander's friends not noticing; they were inside the building and busy in making plans for an offensive operation. The Outlander left them and ventured somewhere deep in to a forest to seek advice from Valkorion. When Valkorion became aggressive, the Outlander attempted to contact his friends but Valkorion sabotaged all communication efforts.

I accept your concession in advance, my friend.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In the game files they are labeled Marr Imposter and Satele Imposter. And Marr flat out tells you that you need to take the throne, and it's your destiny. That and the Force's will needs a commander, which just happens to be you. Not like Valkorion at all.
Impersonators; not imposters. There is a difference.

FreshestSlice
Yeah, Valkorion also said what was happening in Chapter 2 was real, so forgive me for not giving a shit about anything he's ever said ever.

No, there really isn't.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah, Valkorion also said what was happening in Chapter 2 was real, so forgive me for not giving a shit about anything he's ever said ever.
Valkorion admitted that he was casting illusions for the Outlander in Chapter 2.

However, Valkorion asserted that illusions can kill, which is also true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, there really isn't.
Check the dictionary.

FreshestSlice

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

From Chapter 2:

"I am not afraid. None of this is real." (The Outlander)

"Illusions can kill." (Valkorion)

--

"I am not afraid of them. It's just a bad dream." (The Outlander)

"But the carbonite poisoning is quite real." (Valkorion)

I have not come across the dialogue you mentioned.

Moreover, Valkorion was flow-walking for the Outlander as well (showing him different places and events occurring in different parts of the galaxy) so this may explain "these are not illusions" part.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

From Chapter 2:

"I am not afraid. None of this is real." (The Outlander)

"Illusions can kill." (Valkorion)

--

"I am not afraid of them. It's just a bad dream." (The Outlander)

"But the carbonite poisoning is quite real." (Valkorion)

I have not come across the dialogue you mentioned.

Play through again then. It's not my job to play for you.

But suddenly doesn't make sense when describing this situation, because that would hurt your argument.
Originally posted by wm0403
Oh I see, freshest is basing his argument on leaked files that may or may not have actually been used for the final build. Got it.
The chapter's already been released, so what the hell are you talking about?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Play through again then. It's not my job to play for you.
It is your responsibility to prove a point that you are trying to make. I am not your errand boy.

Post a screenshot or video (and cite the timing of dialogue in case of a video).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But suddenly doesn't make sense when describing this situation, because that would hurt your argument.
Do you understand how Flow-Walking works? It is used to observe events in real-time (past or present).

snoke123
I researched, and found that the distance from endor to byss is 34,292 light-years and palpatine traveled all this in a year.
Palpatine's Spirit Travels Through Space: 34.292c or 1.0280483e13 m

Azronger
I may debunk this depending on the consensus. So how many people actually believe Failkorion's incorporeal state is superior to Palpatine's?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by snoke123
I researched, and found that the distance from endor to byss is 34,292 light-years and palpatine traveled all this in a year.
Palpatine's Spirit Travels Through Space: 34.292c or 1.0280483e13 m

I don't think souls/spirits are restricted to physical laws. Because if they are, then Naga Sadow accomplished a similar feat when he was slain on Coruscant(possessing Gynt) and returned to Yavin 4.

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