Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So given that people are making threads like these on a whim, I thought I'd do the same, in an attempt to make clear what Exar Kun's status really was by this point.

Many people dismiss Exar Kun's feats in Jedi Academy as being amped by Yavin IV, whilst Kun's spirit does utilise the focusing points of the temples on Yavin IV, this merely sustains his will over four millennia:



Exar Kun instead subsides off of the residual energy of the students of Luke's Jedi Praxeum, allowing him to remain a presence:



Exar Kun eventually corrupts Gantoris, Streen and Kyp Durron; but even their Force reserves cannot afford Exar Kun his full powers:



This is interesting given that the Jedi Academy trilogy has stated that if Kyp Durron was corrupted to the dark side, his powers would rival Darth Vader's:



Exar Kun's plan infact is to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke Skywalker and all of his students:





This resurrection would entail regaining his long lost reserves of energy from before his 'death' and regaining physical form:



Clearly sources have established that Exar Kun had never reached parity with his physical prime, for if he had regained that power via any means, he would have taken physical form.

So Exar Kun in his living prime is clearly fully capable of replicating all of the powers he displayed in Jedi Academy, but with even greater magnitude.

These feats include dominating Master Luke Skywalker with Force lightning; Force choking the melded Jedi Streen, Brakiss, Dorsk 81, Cilghal, Tionne, Kam, Jaina, Jacen and Kirani Ti; Summoning vortexes capable of launching multiple Jedi thousands of feet into the air; Telekinetically manipulating the circuitry of the Suncrusher whilst it was stuck inside the core of the sun Yavin Prime; Mentally manipulating Kyp Durron from across the galaxy; and senses capable of becoming one with an entire solar system.

Good work.

Exar Kun is truly formidable.

Despite my love of PT/OT wank I still respect characters like Valk and I even put Exar Kun as one of the most powerful Sith.

I was going to respond to this when it was initially posted, but was pressed for time.

However, AP seems inclined to construe this as some kind of game changer, which it really isn't, and has asked me to share my thoughts. So I'll oblige.

Note that most of this is essentially recycled arguments from SWTOR that AP has conceded to me in the past. First off regarding this quote from the JA sourcebook:To paraphrase myself this statement is in a word, non-descript. Kun prior to this event absorbed the Force power of thousands of Massassi to empower his spirit, that may very well have significantly increased his capacity to wield the Force, as Nathema did to Vitiate.

Kun was also capable of many powers that went beyond his natural capabilities by way of amulets, ritual apparatus, Sith temples etc. and in his spirit state, was completely unshackled from mortal limitations, in particular having a logically infinite capacity to store Force energy.

Altogether it is neither implicit that these are powers he'd be, without any kind of aid, naturally capable of in life, nor can we assume these powers would be realised through that natural capacity when, for stated reasons, Kun is capable of going beyond his natural ability.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Next let's address the claim that Kun needed "all" Luke's students to resurrect himself, an assertion that appears to be based on the following statements:Except it's nowhere actually stated here that Kun needed all of them, merely that his resurrection involved Luke and his students, instead it's elsewhere remarked that:Implying that rather than all 12, any one of them would be sufficient to restore his lost power, it merely being a matter of finding a sufficiently pliable host.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, the assertion that "if he had regained that power via any means, he would have taken physical form", I'm afraid that that is an assumption, not a logical deduction.

What Kun wanted to do was essentially create a dark side avatar, a body, fashioned from the Force, in which to house his spirit. Logically speaking the creation of such a thing would require a considerable amount of power in and of itself, and we've no basis to assume that would entail more power than he ever had when he was alive.

And without physical form, Kun has no means of maintaining pre-existing strength indefinitely, hence achieving that state would be intrinsic to permanently recovering his lost reserves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Altogether I'm failing to see a valid premise for taking the feats Kun accomplished with aid, at face value as is being suggested. Instead let's review the circumstances of said feats.

First of all, when he put Luke Skywalker in a coma, where we should note the followingo when Exar Kun (and Kyp) recovered the Sun Crusher, and attacked Luke he was, at that point, "very powerful", while simultaneously augmenting Kyp's already profound ability that as AP points out, had the potential to rival Vader's if he turned to the dark side, which he did.

And it's only through their combined strength, by tag-teaming Luke, that he's defeated:Noting that Kyp's unlocked dark side strength, seemingly without Kun's initial aid, is itself capable of generating powerful lightning and dark side tendrils. And that this is the same "full might" that could toss freighters, manipulate black holes and is supposedly Vader tier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Which brings me onto another claim AP makes, namely that the Yavin 4 temples merely sustained his will rather than being sufficient to empower him. And while this is a reasonable assumption, it was not the case for the individuals that Kun channeled his powers through, Kyp for example taps into it:Noting of course that Luke confronts Kyp immediately after in this same spot.A cosmic focal that Kyp knew how to tap into, not great odds for Skywalker.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the Streen showing, which it should also be noted, was also performed within this cosmic focal point:Now we can't say with certainty that Streen, like Kyp, was drawing on the temple for strength, but it's certainly a possibility.

More importantly however is the fact that Streen has an innate talent with Alter Environment, capable of for example, countering Exar Kun's Force choke, buffeting a massive Leviathan with a wind storm, and repelling plumes of lava. Evidently if that kind of talent is augmented by a powerful Force user like Kun, the results will be tremendous, but that doesn't mean that Kun, who lacks that innate talent, would be able to achieve that feat without that level of genius.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, in regards to the one notable showing he accomplished without aid, namely Force choking, what has come to my attention to be not just some of Luke's students, but all twelve, while they were employing a Jedi meld.

Now considering that with the powers of the entire Jedi Academy combined where able to Force push seventeen Star Destroyers out of the system, I think it stands to reason that if this feat is interpreted as AP and others have suggested, that it proves, again as AP and others have suggested, that Exar Kun can telekinetically dominate beings in excess of Galen Marek.

And of course we are supposed to interpret this as a low ending showing.

Forgive me for being skeptical, when in life Kun was incapable of overpowering a pre-prime Ulic-Qel Droma. Yes, it's been raised that this was before Kun's own prime, but only by a year, and by which point Exar Kun was already fully seated in the dark side. And surely if we consider that Spirit Kun was supposed to be weakened, it really doesn't matter.

The logical explanation of course being that this is an outlier.

Is this a reasonable assertion to make? Yes. Exar Kun as a spirit, is completely unbound from the mortal coil, there is therefore, in brief, no limitation to his ability to channel the Force at any given time. Given that, an explosive burst like this seemingly well beyond what he's been shown to be capable of accomplishing in life, as a last ditch attempt that left him seemingly utterly depleted (seeing as he's overpowered and sealed away immediately after), isn't necessarily outside of reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

And that ends my assessment, your welcome, AP.

Good job both of you, now I'm pretty convinced Kun can challenge Savage in a saber combat and will resist Vader's TK for a while

Not sure about more

An marijuana timing

Btw Palpatine was able to retain his identity through sheer force of will, without the aid of a nexus.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can't really afford to go biblical with my responses these days,

http://media3.giphy.com/media/YG3qalnBXN0pG/giphy.gif

Originally posted by JKBart
Good job both of you, now I'm pretty convinced Kun can challenge Savage in a saber combat and will resist Vader's TK for a while

Not sure about more LMAOOriginally posted by The Ellimist
Btw Palpatine was able to retain his identity through sheer force of will, without the aid of a nexus.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://media3.giphy.com/media/YG3qalnBXN0pG/giphy.gif Paraphrasing past arguments tho.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Paraphrasing past arguments tho. i want u to make dmb squeal

Beni, what do you make of the feeble touch temple suncrusher shit that has been used to argue Kun>>Spirit Kun>>>Kyp+Temple?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
i want u to make dmb squeal keep your dirty fantasies out of this jokerOriginally posted by Emperordmb
Beni, what do you make of the feeble touch temple suncrusher shit that has been used to argue Kun>>Spirit Kun>>>Kyp+Temple? You mean this?

Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.

I don't feel it really proves anything really. All that's being referred to here is Kyp's sensory powers, not his overall mastery over the Force. So its not as if its being stated that Kyp is altogether feeble in comparison to Kun, or even comparing him to Kun at all.

That said, Kyp's exploration into the Force is pretty feeble, and he has nothing on Kun's vast knowledge and experience, but that doesn't change the fact that Kyp wields immense raw power, which if anything Kun is here and elsewhere merely helping him to unlock.

So your suggesting it's a display of mastery over power rather than raw power itself? That's exactly what I was thinking.

Yes, and particularly in terms of helping Kyp achieve mastery over his own power.

We can destroy Exar Kun, one AP thread at a time.
http://replygif.net/i/759.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/gVoBC0SuaHStq/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Beniboybling
keep your dirty fantasies out of this joker

That'd be more a nightmare for you, eh?

Maybe.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maybe.

LOL your tricks won't work on me.

Ik you're a dirty hetero uhuh

We can't all constantly talk about sodemy.

AP pwned the opposition here. Good work.

Not the first time that Beni have made questionable assumptions.

Above Vitiate as well.

Originally posted by ares834
Above Vitiate as well.
Sorry, hon. Vitiate was not known back then and confirmed to be more powerful in sources covering Exar Kun.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
AP pwned the opposition here. Good work.

Not the first time that Beni have made questionable assumptions.
AP hasn't really done anything but respond which to everyone else, isn't victory within itself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry, hon. Vitiate was not known back then and confirmed to be more powerful in sources covering Exar Kun.

Got a quote? Because everything I've see has said it after Exar was already dead.

Vitiate has indeed been labeled the most powerful sith and Force user up till his time, presumably not including the Ones/etc.

It seems convincing that Sidious > Vitiate > Exar Kun > Karness Murr > Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bane.

Granted, this is also pre-prime Vader, who goes through at least two power-ups (-> ESB and -> RotJ), and the Murr > Vader chain isn't clear; it's just stated that she could defeat him.

If we accept that living Exar > nexus-spirit Exar (which seems to be the reasonable interpretation), then his owning of Luke might put him really close to Palpatine. At the same time though he still had a nexus-amped Kyp Durron to help him, and frankly JA Luke consistently seems weaker than his DE incarnation.

This is...most interesting indeed.

What source? It better not have been an in-universe source like the TOR encyclopedia. And what was the exact quote?

Hell, Exar Kun is implied to be as strong as ol Palps in the first place.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
frankly JA Luke consistently seems weaker than his DE incarnation.

This is...most interesting indeed.

He is stated to get stronger with every mission, implying JA Luke > DE Luke, and then some. Luke seems less powerful because he grows wiser and thus is more conservative with his powers, which is a moot point given Luke used every single defensive technique he knew in an attempt to defend against Kun/Kyp and they were all utterly futile gestures, as stated in text.

Well given we already know Exar Kun isn't as powerful as Palpatine, I guess we can throw another one up to Luke's glorious opinion.

Yeh, that is fairly obvious, but it and the troves of other similar statements imply that Kun is supposed to be approaching Palps.

Like needing to drain an entire race of people just to an hero?

He is specifically noted to have not taken the time to learn the ritual properly because he didn't have time, he also intended to travel the galaxy and regroup elsewhere, the Wall of Light prevented that though.

Unfortunately AP's response appears to be almost entirely a red herring. mmm

You keep telling yourself that.

Just making an observation dear.

Observe as you will.

I love Kun and all. Great guy. Extremely powerful.

Not above Valkorion though.

Obviously, he isn't written poorly enough for that.

More or less referring to ares' comment.

And hey, don't make fun of our dear Immortal Emperor like that.

Valk is cool, Vitiate is utter manure.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valk is cool, Vitiate is utter manure.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I love Kun and all. Great guy. Extremely powerful.
100 years old Vitty can take him lol

Originally posted by AncientPower
He is specifically noted to have not taken the time to learn the ritual properly because he didn't have time, he also intended to travel the galaxy and regroup elsewhere, the Wall of Light prevented that though.
So, you agree with me. Thanks.

I have never made the claim Kun = Sidious anyway, though it's pretty telling that Kun in three years managed to attain massive powers, where it took Sidious decades.

Wut? I mean when you're on a massive Dark Side nexus, full of Sith spirits, but somehow still get TK'd by a decrepit old man, then sure you gain a lot of power in comparison to what you had before.

That 'decrepit old man' can maintain telepathic communication with thousands of Jedi at once, without any physical strain. Oh and it wasn't a telekinetic attack, Odan-Urr tried to sever Kun's connection to the Force but Kun was presumably too powerful, then Kun one-shots him, on a nexus of light side energy at that.

He was of course pre-prime at this point as well.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That 'decrepit old man' can maintain telepathic communication with thousands of Jedi at once, without any physical strain. Oh and it wasn't a telekinetic attack, Odan-Urr tried to sever Kun's connection to the Force but Kun was presumably too powerful, then Kun one-shots him, on a nexus of light side energy at that.

He was of course pre-prime at this point as well.
So you're ignoring the old man is on a nexus when it come to communicating to Jedi, but it's all good when it comes to Kun killing him. It's irrelevant this man is old because hey, he can talk to Jedi. It's still TK, no matter how flashy it is. And "too powerful" to sever? When has that ever been a thing?

They are both displays of prowess on the same nexus, so it applying to the former isn't relevant in the first place. Him being old isn't being disputed, the implication that he's some decrepit weak old man and that somehow downrates Kun is being disputed.

It isn't telekinesis, he rebukes him with Sever Force, catching Kun off guard with his sudden attack and it fails, reading the fight might help you out here.

Originally posted by ares834
What source? It better not have been an in-universe source like the TOR encyclopedia. And what was the exact quote?
Vitiate had surpassed the likes of Karness Muur, Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos in raw power right after the Nathema event (centuries before the era of Revan).

Karness Muur is implied to be more then a match for Darth Vader in an official source, FYI.

Do the math via power-scaling.

Vader thought to himself that using the Muur Talisman to defeat Sidious ( Muur + Sidious ) would be like trading one master for another but I don't know if that's in reference to Muur being more powerful at the time or simply the corrupting influence of the Talisman. It could also have been Vader underestimating Sidious.

It's also pre-prime Vader.

@ares834

Quoting system not working for me at the moment. Your responses will be addressed in normal quoting manner therefore.


Here:

"Lord Vitiate sacrificed millions, stealing their life force to make himself immortal. Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born." (Darth Nyriss)


No! Karness Muur is implied to be Darth Vader's superior on individual basis. Celeste Morne wouldn't have made much difference, and was just a vessel for Karness Muur. It is also implied that Celeste Morne was an inferior vessel for Karness Muur.

Moreover, it is also implied that Darth Vader (with Karness Muur bind to him), would be enough to take on Palpatine. But this would be like trading one master for another.

Also, you seem to have lost track of the argument. We were talking about Vitiate.

Star Wars based sources are in-universe by default unless stated otherwise. Your nitpicking is useless.

Why would Darth Nyriss know very little of Exar Kun? He became well-known throughout the galaxy. She had knowledge of Revan as well.


You are not focusing on the context of revelation. It is pretty obvious.

She doesn't have the strength to stop Darth Vader. But Karness Muur does.

Talisman is just a means through which Karness Muur is called upon to take control of the host and unleash his powers.

It's almost as though character opinions only matter when they refer to SWTOR.

OK, time to address AP's response.

So now AP seems to be exclusively arguing that Exar Kun is more powerful than he was as a spirit. But guess what? I agree, and never argued otherwise.

AP, your original claim was that:You're not just arguing that Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun, you're arguing that Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun with aid. Understand that proving the former doesn't prove the latter. As I said what you've presented is a red herring, because it doesn't make the slightest difference to my case.

It really doesn't matter Exar Kun wasn't at full strength when he recovered the Sun Crusher, or put Luke into a coma, because not only was he still "very powerful", but more importantly he had the "full might" of Kyp Durron, a supposed Vader-tier Force user, channelling his power through a cosmic focal point, at his disposal.

Nor does it matter Exar Kun wasn't at full strength when he possessed Streen. He still had the Jedi's Alter Enviroment genius at his fingertips, who too may have been amped by the temple.

Altogether what you've presented doesn't alter the fact that even if weakened, Kun was nonetheless able to realise powers in arguable excess of what he achieved in life by exploiting the powers of others.

So I'd start working on that fully bodied replied if I were you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

AP also seems to have misunderstood my point regarding spirits. So let me be clear. At no point have, and did I argue, that Exar as a spirit had more power in the Force than he had in life. Rather that he had a greater capacity to wield the Force that he had in life (and moreover, that he was capable of augmenting that capacity to unnatural degrees). To help you in comprehending that, the definition of capacity:

http://i.imgur.com/LI8awRX.png

I'm not talking about the power Kun at the time possessed, I'm talking about his upper limit. The power he had at his fingertips at the time is really irrelevant. What is important is that:
As AP kindly pointed out, Exar Kun's relationship with the dark side was seemingly strengthened by the Massassi ritual, literally stating he became "one with it."

Without the limitations of the mortal coil (i.e. midichlorians, etc.), there is logically no limit to the power Exar Kun could accrue, given the time and resources. (And you can find plenty of proof of this, for example look up Dorsk 81, or alternatively the Outlander's experiences when being possessed by Valkorion. Or read my blog.)

Therefore, when the Jedi Academy sourcebook refers to the powers Kun could achieve, that he had the capacity to achieve, with "the energy needed to fuel his disembodied will", for the above reasons, and just as importantly the other reasons I have raised, we shouldn't assume that would equate to the natural limits of his power in life. When, again, we've every reason to believe he had the capacity to move past that given the sufficient resources.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's wrap this up.Ah yes, I forgot that it was 'Lightsabers Only' and that Force powers were not allowed. I also forgot that Force power has no bearing on your ability to wield a lightsaber.

Be serious. Exar Kun engaged Ulic in a no-holds-barred lightsaber engagement, with the intent to kill, that was stated to have been "too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand", in a contest that could have "gone on for hours" that "would ultimately end with both men dead."

That proves three things. 1. That Ulic was able to match Kun in Force augmentation and stamina 2. That Ulic was sufficiently powerful for Kun not to disregard him with a Force attack as he did Aleema and 3. That Ulic was sufficiently powerful to prevent Kun from overcoming him with his powers full stop, seeing as he had the ability to ensure the pair's mutual destruction.Indeed, as I said, he was fully seated in the dark side at this point. Whereas nobody is denying he grew stronger.But acquiring a holocron doesn't at all account for the vast growth that's being implied here, or the fact that Force choking the academy's students is supposed to be a low tier showing.Right, but not only did you misread that first statement (it says Kun, an extremely powerful figure, dabbled in alchemy; not Kun dabbled in alchemy becoming an extremely powerful figure), but it's described as occurring prior to his duel with Ulic.

As for that second statement, its neither implicit nor explicit that he didn't possess that "enormous" before, if anything the former quote suggests otherwise.Your point being? That doesn't contradict mine and DMB's conclusions on the matter.

Yeah, not seeing much compelling evidence to divorce Kyp's raw power from the equation.

FP Exar > Spirit Exar > Luke > Palpatine confirmed

Care to provide actual evidence for your conclusion rather than blind speculation on the properties of spirits? Because I'm seeing absolutely no evidence proving anything you've just said.

First of all, it was Exar Kun's power that defeated Luke Skywalker:



Secondly, this statement makes it clear that none of the students Kun converted were strong enough to provide him enough energy for all of Kun's power:



This proves undisputedly that even when Kun drained Gantoris and had Kyp Durron's power, he was not at full power.

Again you keep arguing that he wouldn't attain physical form given the power he required, when that is exactly what he wanted to do:

Infact, after Exar Kun destroyed Luke Skywalker, he had only Streen to draw power from, Gantoris was long dead and Kyp had traversed the galaxy:



Reflecting that Exar Kun by the end was infact very weak, and yet managed this incredibly impressive feat:



Noting that they were empowering each other:





Also note that the Solo twins were being guided by the ghost of Luke Skywalker, who just previously gifted his full skills in lightsaber combat to Jacen:



Also keep in mind that Jacen and Jaina's (now elder) brother Anakin, had been powerful enough as a fetus that through a similar meld he amplified Luke Skywalker's powers enough to defeat the reborn Emperor Palpatine in combat.

Whereas the combined force Exar Kun faced was Cilghal, Streen, Kirani Ti, Brakiss, Jacen, Jaina, Dorsk 81, Kam Solusar and Tionne Solusar, with the spirits of Luke Skywalker and Vodo-Siosk Baas melded together.

Let us take a look at some individual feats.

Streen:

Buffeting a Leviathan.
Blocking streams of Lava.

Brakiss:

An imperial inquisitor, shortly after capable of manipulating solar flares in a similar manner to what Naga Sadow did.
A year or two later, fighting Luke Skywalker so well, Luke would be exhausted.

Cilghal:

Master of healing arts, including grievous injuries.

Kam Solusar:

A Jedi that fought beside Luke Skywalker throughout Dark Empire, facing off inquisitors such as Sedriss.

Kirani Ti:

One of Dathomir's most powerful young witches

Dorsk 81:

A powerful Jedi clone who would later go on to telekinetically hurtle over a dozen Star Destroyers halfway across the Yavin system, whilst amped by a similar meld.

Just a small run down of the kinds of power we are talking about here, noting that by this point, they'd all nearly achieved mastery of Luke's teachings:

Master Skywalker was proud of them. He said that the trainees were reaching the limits of the techniques he himself could teach them.
-Jedi Academy Volume 3 Champions of the Force

So even without Kyp Durron, Gantoris or Streen, whilst his powers exhausted downing Luke Skywalker, Exar Kun at one of his weakest points as a spirit, is choking out an entire group of powerful Jedi, to the point they were fading out, and is only stopped by one of the most powerful melds we've ever seen Jedi perform. One that would later be strong enough to telekinetically hurtle a fleet of Star Destroyers, a vastly more impressive feat than anything Starkiller ever did.

But yeh, limits and capscities and amps, all down to Kyp Durron, sure thing Beni, sure thing.

Damn it edit, work.

Every novel represents point-of-view of developments in the lore. Many sourcebooks also represent the same.

Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia also represents point-of-view of developments in the lore:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Ever bothered to read disclaimers of the sourcebooks?

TOR Encyclopedia is a more recent work and it promotes Vitiate as the most powerful Force-user ever. Your criticism is futile.

Few sourcebooks represent point of view of developments in the lore. They are officially marketed as such. Want some examples?


So how did they perceive the Emperor's Wrath as second coming of Exar Kun?

It is foolish to assume that the Sith of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire were oblivious to developments in the galaxy at large. They dispatched agents to different worlds across the galaxy (outside the domain of the Empire) to learn about developments outside the Empire. They were responsible for orchestrating Mandalorians Wars and Jedi Civil War after failure of Exar Kun.

In-fact, some of them made arrangements for invading the galaxy centuries earlier than the Great Galactic War but the Emperor foiled such plans.




Yes, I have checked the novel. What is portrayed on-screen doesn't refutes the explicit revelation that Karness Muur had the strength to tackle Darth Vader.

Karness Muur wasn't restricted to turning Stormtroopers into Rakghouls. He had a number of offensive options under his belt including traditional powers such as Force Lightning.

For example:

http://i.imgur.com/rkhfT17.jpg

You see that? When Celeste Morne would activate the artifact, Karness Muur would take control of her and use her as a vessel to affect the external environment afterwards.

---

I accept your concession in advance.

^ oh noez, Karness Murr knew "traditional powers such as Force lightning", he's obviously far above Vader.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Every novel represents point-of-view of developments in the lore. Many sourcebooks also represent the same.

Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia also represents point-of-view of developments in the lore:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Ever bothered to read disclaimers of the sourcebooks?

TOR Encyclopedia is a more recent work and it promotes Vitiate as the most powerful Force-user ever. Your criticism is futile.

Few sourcebooks represent point of view of developments in the lore. They are officially marketed as such. Want some examples?

Yes, I know the TOR encyclopedia is an in-universe source. Thanks for parroting what I've said in this very thread. And the fact that you point that out only further undermines your argument.

So unless you have something stating The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is in-universe then I'm not really sure what you are arguing here...


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how did they perceive the Emperor's Wrath as second coming of Exar Kun?

It's almost as if by that time they had been reintegrated into the galaxy for decades...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Yes, I have checked the novel. What is portrayed on-screen doesn't refutes the explicit revelation that Karness Muur had the strength to tackle Darth Vader.

In that case, you would know that Morne quote you used t argue Muur > Vader wasn't referring to Muur being more powerful but rather that he had access to a power that could allow him to defeat Vader via turning the Stormtroopers into Rakghouls.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I accept your concession in advance.

For what? You didn't refute a single one of my points. You go off on unnecessary tangents that have nothing to do with what we are arguing about and even undermine your own sources.

On the claim that Exar Kun couldn't defeat Ulic with his powers, the fight was a duel, it wasn't a Force contest nor was it ever implied Force powers were party to their confrontation:



They duel to a stalemate, that is all.

As far as the date of Kun's alchemical practice comes in, first of all it states he is nowan extremely powerful figure, as in he became it, something reinforced elsewhere:



He tests his new abilities by altering Massassi into abominations, his far more impressive alchemical feats take place after, whem he sensed Ulic and Keto he knew he had to interrupt his plans and cement his place:



He didn't have the Dark Holocron yet, and he didn't build the Golden Globe or the Dark Reaper until after he had returned from the unification between himself and Ulic. Ergo by the time he had built the Golden globe and Dark reaper, he had gained extreme, enormous powers beyond those he had available when the Ulic duel took place.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Care to provide actual evidence for your conclusion rather than blind speculation on the properties of spirits? Because I'm seeing absolutely no evidence proving anything you've just said.Blind speculation? Honey, I've done my research. But if you demand to be spoon fed I'll oblige.

As I have said the mortal coil limits one's capacity as a Force wielder, some examples:

Dorsk 81 - a member of Luke's academy whose demise was brought about from all the students channelling their power through him, causing a Force overload:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579432-9676504049-449px.JPGLuke Skywalker - who when forcing his body to its upper limits, caused his cells to boil and his body to rapidly age, again experiencing a Force overload:Finally, Darth Sidious - whose sheer power was such that his clone bodies were insufficient vessels to contain it, causing his hosts to rapidly decay and dieo now we're clear on that, understand that because a spirit lacks a mortal body, this mortal coil does not exist, ergo these limitations do not exist.

Evidence of that? Well let's look at the limits of Kun himself. Who was able to empower his spirit with the life energies of thousands of Massassi prior to his imprisonment on Yavin 4:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579323-7350018171-45743.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579324-7603697735-45744.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579325-6086201822-45744.jpg

With TotJ going as far as to refer to him breaking free from the "chains of his mortal body" (suggesting his physical form couldn't house that amount of power).

This giving him the power to survive a Wall of Light created by the entire Jedi Order, that's "thousands upon thousands of Force wielders". Power in vast excess of whatever he possessed in life, and proof he could accrue energy well beyond what he ever had before.

On the other hand, what reason do we have to believe the level of power Kun could accrue had an upper limit? When we have entities like Valkorion consuming entire worlds?Right, and Corran Horn claiming Kun defeated Luke, doesn't preclude Kyp Durron aiding him in accomplishing that. Instead let's (again) review an objective source on the matter, which states:Case closed.Right... you mean the same statement I debunked in my original post?

And you call me responsible for circular debates. Give it up dear.I argued what now? Nah, I recall arguing that Exar Kun simply restoring the power he had in life, wouldn't be sufficient to create a dark side avatar in which to house that power.

Rather, he'd need power in excess of that, to permanently recover those lost reserves.Didn't I address this point as well? I believe I did.

But please continue, the more you wank this feat the easier it is to prove it an outlier. Oh, so this constitutes your rebuttal? LMAO. I accept your concession. Originally posted by AncientPower
On the claim that Exar Kun couldn't defeat Ulic with his powers, the fight was a duel, it wasn't a Force contest nor was it ever implied Force powers were party to their confrontation:

They duel to a stalemate, that is all.Goodness, you're floundering. This is a literal rewording of the point I refuted above. My response is the same, as if Kun would let himself be killed without resorting to Force powers.Yes, it states he became an extremely powerful figure, and tested that newfound power by performing Sith alchemy, but nowhere does it say that that act of alchemy made him even stronger.

Regardless, what alchemic feats? You've raised none he performed after facing Ulic.Lmao, how did you work that one out? It's nowhere stated that any of those things gave him "extreme, enormous powers" that he didn't have before, you literally pulled that out of your ass, or for some reason you're withholding information. I feel like I can guess which one it is.

Seriously, enough with the mental gymnastics, it's getting you nowhere.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, I know the TOR encyclopedia is an in-universe source. Thanks for parroting what I've said in this very thread. And the fact that you point that out only further undermines your argument.

So unless you have something stating The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is in-universe then I'm not really sure what you are arguing here...
Listen dude, I can tolerate some attitude but I have little tolerance for sheer ignorance or deliberate attempt to overlook provided evidence.

Read this:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Taken from Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia

Originally posted by ares834
It's almost as if by that time they had been reintegrated into the galaxy for decades...
Why would they not be aware of Exar Kun? They had access to the Force and could sense profound disturbances or even experience visions. They could also dispatch agents to determine causes of disturbances.

Exar Kun would be a well-known figure throughout the galaxy. TOR era sources touch his story time and again.

How would Darth Nyriss know that Revan was powerful and extremely dangerous? Tell me?

Originally posted by ares834
In that case, you would know that Morne quote you used t argue Muur > Vader wasn't referring to Muur being more powerful but rather that he had access to a power that could allow him to defeat Vader via turning the Stormtroopers into Rakghouls.
You understand the meaning of the word "strength," right?

Karness Muur transformed stormtroopers into Rakghouls because there presence would be problematic. Afterwards, the former would find it easier to contend with Darth Vader and tackle him. Darth Vader's retreat from the scene implies that he was not going to take his chances against Karness Muur. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
For what? You didn't refute a single one of my points. You go off on unnecessary tangents that have nothing to do with what we are arguing about and even undermine your own sources.
I have provided evidence to support my claims again and again. You are looking for excuses and ways to ignore them. Not cool.

I wonder if Legend will notice that word "omniscient" here soon. mmm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Listen you baboon

Originally posted by Aurbere
I wonder if Legend will notice that word "omniscient" here soon. mmm
Omniscient committee of historians and scholars (within the Star Wars saga), not authors.

Both TOR Encyclopedia and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia are in-universe sourcebooks. The writing style of both is same.

Beni being sassy AF. I likey

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Omniscient committee of historians and scholars (within the Star Wars saga), not authors.

Both TOR Encyclopedia and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia are in-universe sourcebooks. The writing style of both is same.

We all know what "omniscient" means, right? I feel like someone here doesn't...

Originally posted by Aurbere
We all know what "omniscient" means, right? I feel like someone here doesn't...
I understand the meaning of that word, but ignoring the entire statement for the sake of semantics makes sense?

Historians and Scholars, period.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Historians and Scholars, period. What exactly is your point?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What exactly is your point?
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is an in-universe sourcebook just like TOR Encyclopedia.

Getting me nowhere, but gain support from almost everybody here, bar yourself and Gideon(one guess why that is).

Firstly you're contradicting yourself and sources, how can Kun harness unlimited power because he isn't mortal, and be somehow more powerful due to this via Kyp Durron despite Kun requiring his 'lost reserves of energy'(JA Sourcebook) to resurrect himself in human form, which would be accomplished by 'draining Luke and the other trainees'(JvsS).

I.E. Kyp, Gantoris and Streen combined weren't capable of restoring those energies, he required Luke's energy and the energy of his dozen students to achieve his intended resurrection, which is accomplished by regaining his lost reserves of energy.

So... he is somehow beyond his capabilities as a mortal, but lacks the power he needs to resurrect, which is accomplished by regaining his lost reserves of energy? There's a break in logic here and it sure as hell isn't on my end.

I have provided proof that for him to return, which is what he'd been trying to accomplish the entire trilogy, he would have to restore the Force energy reserves he had when he was alive. Which Kyp wasn't enough for, you know when Tom Veitch confirms he was at his most powerful, living.

I mean you use the statement 'the full might of Kyp Durron' as if it's a settlement on the issue, when it clearly isn't Beni, learned nothing have you?

Kyp Durron was being amplified by Exar Kun's power, which made his own power focused by a temple, comparatively feeble:





The 'full might of Kyp Durron', is feeble, frail, and delicate, compared to the power afforded him by Exar Kun.

As Corran Horn states, Exar Kun was exhausted by the effort, not Kyp Durron.

Infact, Exar Kun's supposed limitless capacity, isn't very limitless whatsoever:



So any attempt to influence the physical realm exhausts his energies almost instantly, he is never this limitless spirit that can weild unlimited energy. He is a Sith spirit and can return to physical form by regaining his lost reserves of energy.

Those lost reserves of energy not being somehow increased by the ritual either, the energy fueled the ritual and allowed him to become a spirit, he was going to 'run rampant' across the cosmos but Nomi sensed what he was attempting, the ensuing Wall of Light trapped him in the temples, which he used to survive and maintain his will without being dragged into the void.

I find it humorous at best, that you claim to have debunked anything, when it simply appears that you're ignoring statements and speculating as to why you're correct.

You point to Exar Kun shedding his chains and mortal coil, but ignore that it immediately follows with his ability to traverse the cosmos. As in he can move around the galaxy without mortal restraints. When it states he became one with the dark side, it means he died and became one with the Dark Side, not achieved some unlimited power.

If you have any actual substantial proof going against the already confirmed power levels of Kun's spirit, aid or no, and how it relates to Kun's powers as a living Sith Lord, which I've provided repeatedly, then state them.

On the duel with Ulic, unless you have actual evidence that they were using Force powers, rather than what is stated to be a pure contest of swordsmanship, provide it. More speculation won't get you anywhere, Kun is famous for his need to prove himself against his peers, something he did here.

Regarding your hilarious misinterpretation of my alchemic statement, it isn't that alchemy made Exar Kun more powerful, it is that he'd grown extremely powerful by the time he had resumed his alchemical practices on Yavin IV, which is exactly what happens in the story.

Kun starts practicing alchemy, creating the Massassi Abominations and the construction of a large network of temples, finishing Naga Sadow's incomllete works. But Kun decides to take the Corsair to deal with Ulic and Aleema, they join forces, Kun goes to Ossus and kills Odan-Urr, he takes in it's knowledge and becomes more powerful. He then converts the Jedi students by unleashing the spirits in the holocron whilst on Yavin IV, thus starts the assassination attempts on the Jedi Masters, Kun rescues Ulic from Coruscant. Kun then returns to Yavin IV and resumes his alchemical creations.

Comprende esse?

Seriously, unless you have something beyond your own speculation on cherry-picked information, then this isn't going to go anywhere. You're proving nothing whilst I provide statements supporting exactly what I've stated.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand the meaning of that word, but ignoring the entire statement for the sake of semantics makes sense?

Historians and Scholars, period.

Omniscient. Period.

AP, the text says Kyp's "exploratory touch" was feeble. Kun simply reinforced his cautious groping and shoved him forward. Contextually, that refers to his delicate search... Not a side by side comparison of their full powers.

His touch was comparatively feeble until the 'black-ice power' of Kun reinforced his abilities and he found the Suncrusher almost instantly, then Kyp is stated to use Kun's power to telekinetically pilot the vessel down to the temple, before Kun's powers allowed him to dominate Luke Skywalker.

It is all stated in JAT and JAS, it is repeatedly reinforced that it was Kun aiding Kyp who dominated Luke, literally, that Kun's power allowed him to triumph over Luke.

Kun's shade was exhausted by the effort of both feats back-to-back, even Horn who got wrecked by Kun first-hand, says he has no idea why Kun wasn't much more active afterwards. Even whilst knowing that Kun had nearly killed his fellow trainees, despite this apparent dormancy, the only explanation being that Kun had been exhausted by his earlier efforts.

Because maybe Kun's power allowed Kyp to use his? Just a thought.

Or that Kun's powers allowed Kyp to do everything Kyp accomplished, which is what is stated to have been the case in official sources.

Which are not mutually exclusive.

Yeah, no one here is denying that Kun played a huge role in conquering Luke. But that excerpt in no way, shape, or form means anything other than Kyp being pretty delicate in his first major psychic exploration and Kun kicking it into high gear.

If anything, you're the one who's denying Kyp's participation. Beni has that covered.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Getting me nowhere, but gain support from almost everybody here, bar yourself and Gideon(one guess why that is). That delusional huh?Goodness. We've gone over this already, first of all nobody said anything about Kun being able to harness unlimited power, merely that there are no limits to the power he could accrue, or at least an excess of what he prior possessed, given the time and resources.

Seriously do you need an analogy? Imagine you have a 2 litre bucket, filled with 2 litres of water. Now introduce another bucket, that has the capacity of 3 litres, but it is empty. The first bucket has more water in it, but it remains a fact that the second bucket has the capacity to hold more water. Clear? Because I won't be repeating myself again.

And as an addendum, I've already debunked the idea that Kun needed all Luke's students to restore his lost power, see my OP.Yes and you continue to ignore that he'd need an excess of his former power to permanently restore his lost Force reserves. How long are you going to pretend creating a dark side avatar costs nothing to perform?No, Kyp's sensory abilities are "feeble" in comparison to what he was able to accomplish with Kun's help, namely, to help him unlock his own power. Nowhere is he described in general, or specifically in terms of his sense powers, feeble, in direct comparison to Kun, but rather what they accomplished together. Nor can we really assume its not more mastery than raw strength that's being referred to.Right, because Kyp's powers naturally replenish, whereas Kun's do not.That doesn't prove he has a limited capacity, that proves he had a limited amount of power. Haven't I already explained that I never claimed Kun to be weakened?Who ever said as much? Lmao. It did put him in closer concert with the dark side though. On the other hand watching you continue to bark up the wrong tree is growing tiresome. So it can't be referring to the power he was able accrued as well? Given the precedent for the body limiting that capacity?

And again, who said anything about unlimited power?I think having the full might of Kyp Durron and the genius of Streen at your disposal is sufficient proof. :upo lightsaber duels still don't involve Force powers? I thought we'd already gone over that. As if Ulic could match his strength and stamina if Kun were as vastly above him as suggested.

And according to what sources? Kun regularly employed Force abilities offensively over the course of TotJ, as if he wouldn't resort to doing so when failing to would cause his death.Eh? The statement says he was "extremely powerful" when he began those alchemic practices and no evidence you've raised suggests he resumed them after. I mean seriously when do you plan to support his claim?

Oh and interestingly enough, looking over the source again it states he invented the golden sphere before his engagement with Kun as well. Lmao, the only reason its not going anywhere is because 1. you continue to avoid acknowledging many of my points 2. you simply repeat yourself instead of addressing my rebuttals 3. you continue to bark up the wrong tree concerning this "unlimited power" nonsense, that I never actually suggested.

Originally posted by Aurbere
We all know what "omniscient" means, right? I feel like someone here doesn't...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand the meaning of that word, but ignoring the entire statement for the sake of semantics makes sense?

Historians and Scholars, period.



This is just embarrassing.

Why would he need more power than he could gain life when it states that Exar Kun only needs to restore his lost reserves of energy to accomplish his resurrection?



Something repeated in another source:



You claim that Exar Kun needs more power than he'd have had in life to return to human form, but the first quote states he can do so by restoring his lost reserves of energy. Nothing states he needs more than that, to restore those reserves he needs to drain Luke and his trainees. Nothing more, nothing less.

You claim you've debunked that Kun needed all of Luke's students, despite the above quotes mentioning a 'nucleus of followers' and noting 'Luke and his trainees'.

He drained Gantoris fully but that could only last him until subverting other students:



He repeatedly mentions his intention to convert all of Luke's students, in the book itself.

At one point Exar Kun had the reserve of Gantoris, the power of Kyp Durron and had his control over Streen. That still wasn't enough power to achieve his ultimate goal.

Darth Nyriss might be a fallible source but TOR Encyclopedia is not. Sorry.


And did he do anything notable?


Why would Darth Vader be affected by some stormtroopers turning into rakghouls?

Originally posted by The Ellimist


This is just embarrassing.
Your grasp of things (or lack thereof) should be embarrassing for you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


This is just embarrassing.

Um, wasn't it literally just a few days ago that you completely ****ed up the meaning of "omniscient", old chum?

Considering English is actually your first language, unlike Legend, might want to be a bit more mindful here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, wasn't it literally just a few days ago that you completely ****ed up the meaning of "omniscient", old chum?

Considering English is actually your first language, unlike Legend, might want to be a bit more mindful here.

It's not that he messed up the definition of the word - he was reminded several times that he might have gotten it wrong, and assured us he had not - he just can't make the logical connection that "knows everything" negates his "in-universe" argument. It's a failure in reasoning, which is a lot more lolworthy than a semantics hiccup.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why would he need more power than he could gain life when it states that Exar Kun only needs to restore his lost reserves of energy to accomplish his resurrection?

Something repeated in another source:

You claim that Exar Kun needs more power than he'd have had in life to return to human form, but the first quote states he can do so by restoring his lost reserves of energy. Nothing states he needs more than that, to restore those reserves he needs to drain Luke and his trainees. Nothing more, nothing less.Except, that's not actually what those sources say. What they say is that Luke's students possessed the power he needed (note an unquantified amount) to "restore his lost reserves." Not that wielding his past power, through any means, would be sufficient to resurrect himself.

That is an inference you have made.

However, when we consider that in order to permanently restore his lost power, he would require a body in which that power could be sustained, that phrase takes on new meaning. Namely acquiring a body should be considered intrinsic to "restoring his lost reserves."

Namely, being capable, by any means, of wielding power or an excess of his power, as a spirit, wouldn't constitute "restoring his lost reserves", because he doesn't have a body, and therefore it can't be sustained. Instead he would and was exhausted by every exertion.

Only by creating a dark side avatar could he properly achieve that, which, as I have said, would logically require a tremendous amount of additional energy to achieve in and of itself.Uh-huh, and as I said in my OP, none of those statements actually say he "needed" them, only that he attempted to use them. Instead what's actually stated is any one of them would have sufficed.So? A Force user is a conduit, not a receptacle. Draining Gantoris fully wouldn't have given Kun the entirety of his power, it would have given Kun the life energy in Gantoris' body.

Whereas he could have gained much more power if Gantoris had become pliable, and he'd been able to continually siphon power through Gantoris' connection to the Force.

But he didn't, so, as the source states, Kun cut his losses and killed him. Which for the record, proves he didn't need all Luke's students, given he was prepared to kill one of them.Well it would speed up the process immeasurable, so of course he would attempt that. Doesn't make it necessary.Immediately? Evidently not. But given enough time to siphon their power I see no reason why it wouldn't be. But considering that in order to properly restore his lost force reserves he need power potentially well in excess of what he ever had in life, it really doesn't matter.

You are speculating and forming arguments based off of your own interpretations, you keep making claims based off of them and then provide no supporting evidence. My argument is directly supported by statements.

For Exar Kun to live again he needs 'Luke and the other trainees', as a 'nucleus of followers' to drain 'the energy he needs' to 'restore his lost reserves of energy' and 'take human form'.

It literally can't be more obviously stated than that.

You claim Kun didn't have time to siphon energy from Gantoris, which is wrong:



He is siphoning power from Gantoris, it just isn't enough, he attemptd to convert Luke by appearing as Anakin Skywalker, it doesn't work and his power is drained, so he returns to Gantoris and drains him fully:



You make the claim that he doesn't need all the students to regain physical form, when not only the above statements but Exar Kun's own statements contradict you:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, no one here is denying that Kun played a huge role in conquering Luke. But that excerpt in no way, shape, or form means anything other than Kyp being pretty delicate in his first major psychic exploration and Kun kicking it into high gear.

If anything, you're the one who's denying Kyp's participation. Beni has that covered.



So how exactly is reinforcing Kyp's abilities with his power, a display of Kun's mastery over Kyp's own? Here we have two statements directly stating Kun was amplifying Kyp the entire time:





It was Kun's powers amping Kyp that allowed Durron to accomplish all of this, something not only Corran Horn states:



But Streen repeats:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Your quote

"Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities."

No one said Kun didn't play a part in this, but you're completely removing Durron from the equation, which is wrong.

If Kyp's power were negligible compared to Kun's, Kun wouldn't have gone through so much effort to recruit him. Kyp baseline power at this stage might not be very high, but it's pretty much stated outright that Kun unlocks a significant amount of his potential, potential that is said to rival Luke's.

It seems more probable than not that human Exar > nexus + spirit Exar. What isn't so clear is whether human Exar > nexus + spirit Exar + amped Kyp. If he isn't, you can't just translate Kun's feat of defeating Luke (which is the only one that's really impressive) to him when he had help.

Given that the majority of the power in play involved in defeating Luke is clearly Kun's, then a much more powerful Exar Kun, with his gear to boot, is clearly making up for any power Kyp would have contributed in that battle.

It also isn't his only impressive feat, through Streen he summoned a vortex powerful enough to launch people thousands of feet into the air. He also managed to nearly choke out a very powerful group of melded Jedi, a feat of Force grip pretty much unparalelled in lore, with his energy depleted and sources blocked off.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one said Kun didn't play a part in this, but you're completely removing Durron from the equation, which is wrong.


I never did such a thing, I am stating that Kun's power was the clear majority here, and that his more powerful living incarnation would make up for Kyp himself, especially given his standard gear includes an amulet.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Given that the majority of the power in play involved in defeating Luke is clearly Kun's, then a much more powerful Exar Kun, with his gear to boot, is clearly making up for any power Kyp would have contributed in that battle.


How do you know that? Kun does not try to fight Skywalker alone - he blindsides him from the walls after Kyp confronts and attacks him. There's no reason to believe that Kun's spirit could have beaten him solo.



Could you refresh me on this?



That's hardly an unparalleled feat; these were trainees who were still learning how to lift rocks and deflect blaster bolts.

Where do you place Exar Kun, exactly? We know that he's weaker than Palpatine, and we have fairly consistent statements that he's below Vitiate but above any ancient sith before him. I am open to the idea that he's more powerful than Vader, simply by virtue of his performance against Luke (I don't think that, say, two Dooku-tier combatants couldn't overwhelmed him like that, and flesh Exar is stronger).

Originally posted by AncientPower
I never did such a thing, I am stating that Kun's power was the clear majority here, and that his more powerful living incarnation would make up for Kyp himself, especially given his standard gear includes an amulet.
Which is just an assumption you're making, no matter how you slice it.

Luke goes after Kyp, not the other way around, and Exar Kun had just helped him summon the Suncrusher beforehand. So he would have already lost a lot of power pulling that off.

It clearly states Kun had been augmenting Kyp Durron over a few weeks before they rended Luke, then Kyp was reinforced so heavily by Kun that it allowed him to overwhelm Luke Skywalker.

I don't think Kun's spirit could defeat him solo, but the much more powerful living Exar Kun could. Kind of been my argument since the OP.

Streen summons a vortex with alter environment whilst Kun is tricking him, it nearly launches Kirana Ti, Leia and comatose Luke through the roof and into the sky:



It is stated that Exar Kun channelled his powers through Streen to achieve his ends, this end being killing Luke permanently:



They were certainly not mere trainees, they were approaching Luke himself in terms of knowledge:



Solidly below Reborn Palpatine and Valkorion, but above Darth Vader and Darth Krayt.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which is just an assumption you're making, no matter how you slice it.

That living Exar Kun + Amulet > spirit Exar Kun > Kyp Durron + Focal Point?
Not much of an assumption when that is strongly implied and even stated in the text. Adding 2 + 2 together ain't hard.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke goes after Kyp, not the other way around, and Exar Kun had just helped him summon the Suncrusher beforehand. So he would have already lost a lot of power pulling that off.


There's no reason to think that he was fatigued by the time he confronted Luke.



It says that Luke couldn't defeat the two of them together. You're just asserting without any particular evidence that Kun played the overwhelming majority of the role in overwhelming him, and there's really no reason to believe this.



There's no solid evidence that spirit Exar + Kyp < flesh Exar. Mind you, Luke himself didn't really have any ability to affect Exar's spirit, which basically blindsided him with attacks he'd never seen before.



Oh. That's less impressive than pulling the Sun Crusher out of a gas giant anyway.



That sounds like BS from Luke, given that he knows sith techniques from Palpatine that he obviously isn't going to teach them. Regardless, that they approach Luke in terms of knowledge (like...telekinesis? Precognition? Luke doesn't gain his ridiculous set of powers until NJO-ish) doesn't mean that they approach him in raw power.



I could buy that, but largely because he knows techniques that modern Force users don't encounter as often.

Except, given logic from the Jedi Vs. Sith guide, both acts took their toll on Kun's reserves:



Logically if he hadn't have just done that like ten minutes prior, he'd have been stronger when facing Luke. Kyp Durron literally asks for Kun's power and then thanks him when he has the Suncrusher.

No, one quote from the New Chronology states Luke couldn't defeat Kyp's 'full might' and Kun's forbidden weapons. The assertion being made is that the 'full might' of Kyp was being amped heavily by Exar Kun at the time. The indication being that Kyp's attempts without Exar Kun's 'black-ice power' 'reinforcing his abilities' are feeble by comparison.

Kyp with a focusing point is stated to be feeble compared to when he has Kun's power amplifying him. Something reinforced by the JA: Sourcebook, stating that Kun's power had allowed Kyp to defeat Luke. Something Horn and Streen echo in their own historical accounts.

He tried every defensive technique he knew but they all utterly failed, he was going all-out defensively and he still got dominated. Luke being capable of dealing with sorcery is a whole different kettle of fish though.

On two powerful Jedi, it is impressive, for a character with little in the way of TK/AE feats.

Thry were reaching limits of the techniques that Luke could teach them, obviously that isn't including Sith techniques. Luke already had learnt plenty of techniques by then and is stated to be a master of the Force in DE.

It also isn't as if these are red shirt Jedi, four of them are incredibly impressive already and have prior training, their apprenticing to Luke is to refine what they already have experience with.

We're talking about:
Kam Solusar, a Jedi Purge survivor and an ally of Luke in DE against inquisitors.
Brakiss, a top Imperial Inquisitor who infiltrated the praxeum under the guise of a Jedi prospect, the same guy who founds the Shadow Academy, causes dolar flares with his power and is capable of giving Luke ab exhausting.
Kirana Ti, a powerful Dathomiri Witch so strong she was chosen because of her potential.
Streen, who buffets Leviathans with AE and shields himself and allies from valconic projectiles.
Dorsk 81, who goes on to perform one of the greatest telekinetic feats of all time.

They are all melded together and are empowering each other as well. Not to mention three year old Jaina and Jacen, whose brother as a fetus was amping Luke via the same meld to allow him to defeat Reborn Palpatine on the Eclipse.

They aren't featless trainees who don't know anything.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You are speculating and forming arguments based off of your own interpretations, you keep making claims based off of them and then provide no supporting evidence. My argument is directly supported by statements.

For Exar Kun to live again he needs 'Luke and the other trainees', as a 'nucleus of followers' to drain 'the energy he needs' to 'restore his lost reserves of energy' and 'take human form'.

It literally can't be more obviously stated than that.Lmao. No, what you've made, is, as I've explained is an inference and what you are doing to desperately clinging to that inference because you can neither validate it nor disprove my counter-reasoning.

And in light of your failure to do so, I accept your concession honey. There is nothing else you can do at this stage other than repeat yourself is there?

That's not what the quote says, it says that Kun drained Gantoris because he was "no longer his", because he no longer had control over him. The only reason it being no longer being because Kun's attempt to push Gantoris to new heights of anger backfired and caused him to lose control:Nowhere is it stated Gantoris is simply insufficient full stop, instead if anything its implied a Gantoris more deeply seated in his anger would have been enough.Except none of those statements, as I have said, say it was necessary only that he wanted to. As I already said, Kun is just being pratical.

On the other hand, your stance is indeed contradicted by the following:Which implies 12 was more than enough, and which you've yet to address.

Honestly this argument is getting more circular and circular by the moment, understand that saying "you're wrong because " does not constitute a counter-argument, it constitutes floundering.

And I assume you've given up on trying to refute my other points?

AP seems to be crushing it tbh.

You can cheerlead better than that Neph, takes some notes from Legend, he has real passion.

So all I'm seeing here is 'my interpretation is immaculate, any other is flawed and baseless.' The difference being I am building an inferrence by adding one statement with another and painting the bigger picture. You are taking a single statement and interpreting it to mean something else entirely despite the 'face value' of the statement being supported by other statements.

If all you can do is essentially say 'no it doesn't mean that, here's my opinion on why' then I've no further interested in arguing a point you long since went out of_the way to argue semantics on.

If you simply disagree with living Kun being one of the most powerful Sith ever, then feel free to have your opinion, but frankly you seem to be arguing out of spite by this point.

I've changed a lot of opinions so far in this thread, my work here is finished. You were never the end, just the means. I also grow tired arguing a point you wouldn't concede if Tom Veitch himself told you, you were wrong... wait.

Now if you want to act more like one of Ant's clowns feel free to rant about concessions, dear.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can cheerlead better than that Neph, takes some notes from Legend, he has real passion.

Your whole idea that Kun could wield power in excess of what he usually could when alive, is pants on head retarded. If he could draw on that much power he'd just use it to revive himself, dumbass.

That's better.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So all I'm seeing here is 'my interpretation is immaculate, any other is flawed and baseless.' The difference being I am building an inferrence by adding one statement with another and painting the bigger picture. You are taking a single statement and interpreting it to mean something else entirely despite the 'face value' of the statement being supported by other statements.

If all you can do is essentially say 'no it doesn't mean that, here's my opinion on why' then I've no further interested in arguing a point you long since went out of_the way to argue semantics on.

If you simply disagree with living Kun being one of the most powerful Sith ever, then feel free to have your opinion, but frankly you seem to be arguing out of spite by this point.

I've changed a lot of opinions so far in this thread, my work here is finished. You were never the end, just the means. I also grow tired arguing a point you wouldn't concede if Tom Veitch himself told you, you were wrong... wait.

Now if you want to act more like one of Ant's clowns feel free to rant about concessions, dear. http://i.imgur.com/mGgoeaO.gif

I had fun, AP. Let's do it again sometime.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's better. Suck my saber.

Don't tempt me. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1341734200.gif

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nyriss might be a fallible source but TOR Encyclopedia is not. Sorry.

I'm going to need a reason to believe that. Because, as far as I know. the SWTOR Encyclopedia was not written by an omniscient source.

Just to be clear, I don't actually think Kun > Vitiate. BUt if you have a source that we can take with 100% of being true then please, post it.

Yeh I don't think anybody here suggests Kun > Valkorion.

I dunno. F*cking up Luke is a much more impressive combat feat than anything Fraudiate has done.

LeGenD, he's merely testing the infallibility of the notion that Valkorion is supreme, in terms of accolades. Your job is to provide an absolute statement that he is.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD, he's merely testing the infallibility of the notion that Valkorion is supreme, in terms of accolades. Your job is to provide an absolute statement that he is.
I have cited information from:

1. A novel
2. A reference guide
3. A codex entry

I don't know what kind of sources are satisfactory for you and him.

I find the irony of SW_Legend's reliance on sourcebook declarations to be quite amusing given his refusal to bend the knee to Sidious.

I'm sorry, none of that signifies the author is "omniscient" or 100% correct. In fact, we know the author isn't omniscient considering how he calls the future "uncertain" or how he asks "can such relentless evil truly die?"

The codex entry is more promising however. But all it signifies is that Vitiate is the "most dominating Force-user" not necessary the most powerful. Especially, since the quote comes from a codex entry about him corrupting and dominating others.

Also, I love how you claim you know what I think. The arrogance.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm sorry, none of that signifies the author is "omniscient" or 100% correct. In fact, we know the author isn't omniscient considering how he calls the future "uncertain" or how he asks "can such relentless evil truly die?"
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia is officially marketed as "the definitive guide to the epic conflict."

Definitive: (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

You tell me how it is not a reliable source?

Originally posted by ares834
Also, I love how you claim you know what I think. The arrogance.
Your intent is clear.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I find the irony of SW_Legend's reliance on sourcebook declarations to be quite amusing given his refusal to bend the knee to Sidious.
I have clarified my stance in this regard.

I do not perceive Valkorion as a Sith. Therefore, Palpatine's position as the most powerful Sith in galactic history fits in my worldview.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia is officially marketed as "the definitive guide to the epic conflict."

Definitive: (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

You tell me how it is not a reliable source?

Indeed, it is the best guide for TOR and is reliable. That doesn't mean it is a 100% factual though. Especially since the character writing the book claims ignorance from time to time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your intent is clear.

And that is?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not perceive Valkorion as a Sith.

Funny. He is called a Sith in the Encyclopedia you cling so desperately too.

Originally posted by ares834
Indeed, it is the best guide for TOR and is reliable.
Good, we are getting somewhere.

Originally posted by ares834
That doesn't mean it is a 100% factual though. Especially since the character writing the book claims ignorance from time to time.
TOR Encyclopedia is relevant for the timeline of events up to 3640 BBY.

Originally posted by ares834
And that is?
1. Exar Kun > Vitiate
2. Vitiate is a weakling

Originally posted by ares834
Funny. He is called a Sith in the Encyclopedia you cling so desperately too.
Vitiate used to be the Sith Emperor but he is no longer one. He ditched the Sith for a new faction.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
TOR Encyclopedia is relevant for the timeline of events up to 3640 BBY.

So it's not written by an omniscient character but rather a fallible one. Glad you agree.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Exar Kun > Vitiate
2. Vitiate is a weakling

Cute, but no. My original post was a joke as evident by the smiley. And I'm not sure how 2 follows 1...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate used to be the Sith Emperor but he is no longer one. He ditched the Sith for a new faction.

Except he was truthfully working for the Eternal Empire at the time as that was his real project. So the author was wrong or Valk is a Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have clarified my stance in this regard.

I do not perceive Valkorion as a Sith. Therefore, Palpatine's position as the most powerful Sith in galactic history fits in my worldview.

So you concede that Palpatine > the Sith Emperor?

Originally posted by ares834
Except he was truthfully working for the Eternal Empire at the time as that was his real project. So the author was wrong or Valk is a Sith.

Ooh, good point.

This "omniscient" in universe source only needs to be accurate for the things I agree with.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?

I was flipping through the JAS earlier and found this:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/jedi%20academy%20sourcebook%20kun%201_zpsyiie0cpb.png

I honestly think you're shortchanging Kyp's role in all this, AP.

Yeah, I've brought up with quote in discussions with AP innumerable times.

Originally posted by ares834
Except he was truthfully working for the Eternal Empire at the time as that was his real project. So the author was wrong or Valk is a Sith.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/67525264.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, I've brought up with quote in discussions with AP innumerable times.

did you bring this up in the thread already? mmm

I did bring it up in my OP:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15708422#post15708422

Vitiate/Valkorion is the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Nihilus is the second strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Exar Kun is the third strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Sidious is the fourth strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
And the rest is debateable...

Originally posted by AncientPower
So given that people are making threads like these on a whim, I thought I'd do the same, in an attempt to make clear what Exar Kun's status really was by this point.

Many people dismiss Exar Kun's feats in Jedi Academy as being amped by Yavin IV, whilst Kun's spirit does utilise the focusing points of the temples on Yavin IV, this merely sustains his will over four millennia:



Exar Kun instead subsides off of the residual energy of the students of Luke's Jedi Praxeum, allowing him to remain a presence:



Exar Kun eventually corrupts Gantoris, Streen and Kyp Durron; but even their Force reserves cannot afford Exar Kun his full powers:



This is interesting given that the Jedi Academy trilogy has stated that if Kyp Durron was corrupted to the dark side, his powers would rival Darth Vader's:



Exar Kun's plan infact is to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke Skywalker and all of his students:





This resurrection would entail regaining his long lost reserves of energy from before his 'death' and regaining physical form:



Clearly sources have established that Exar Kun had never reached parity with his physical prime, for if he had regained that power via any means, he would have taken physical form.

So Exar Kun in his living prime is clearly fully capable of replicating all of the powers he displayed in Jedi Academy, but with even greater magnitude.

These feats include dominating Master Luke Skywalker with Force lightning; Force choking the melded Jedi Streen, Brakiss, Dorsk 81, Cilghal, Tionne, Kam, Jaina, Jacen and Kirani Ti; Summoning vortexes capable of launching multiple Jedi thousands of feet into the air; Telekinetically manipulating the circuitry of the Suncrusher whilst it was stuck inside the core of the sun Yavin Prime; Mentally manipulating Kyp Durron from across the galaxy; and senses capable of becoming one with an entire solar system.


Finally someone did something to show how much underrated Exar Kun truly is. And he'd beat DE Darth Sidious. Hardly. But he'd do that. ^^ xD

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Vitiate/Valkorion is the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Nihilus is the second strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Exar Kun is the third strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Sidious is the fourth strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
And the rest is debateable...

Only thing debatable is what type of cancer you just gave me.

Brain tumours... I just got several tumours on mah brain.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Only thing debatable is what type of cancer you just gave me.
The only thing debateable is how much of a G-canon(maybe Sidious) fanboy are you?

Originally posted by MythLord
Brain tumours... I just got several tumours on mah brain.

Because of your infection with the G-canon?


"If you have other questions, find me in the crew quarters... there, we will speak more."

66=99

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
66=99

My first thread I posted on in this star wars section happened to be "Who are your top three star wars characters?" My response was as follows:

1) Count Dooku
2) Exar Kun
3) Darth Bane

Clearly I'm no Sidious fanboy. Now that we got this out of the way.. your posts have made me paranoid. I think I'm going to go to the doctor to get checked out. Make sure I don't have any growths or tumors.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Because of your infection with the G-canon?

No, actually it's because I suffer from a rare disease called: Ireadyourargumentsitis.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Vitiate/Valkorion is the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Nihilus is the second strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Exar Kun is the third strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Sidious is the fourth strongest Dark Lord of the Sith
And the rest is debateable... Seriously dude, you can't just keep coming back once every 3 months, spread cancer, get humiliated every time, and not kill yourself after. At least by the 10th time you did it, I legit thought you killed yourself.