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Surely he's just too flipping powerful for his age
He's 17 years old in tfu I'm pretty sure so if he reached his peak he would've been ridiculous (personally I think they made him way too strong)
But that sort of potential is for skywalkers lol
So how powerful would he have become?

He's been training for about as long as RotS Anakin (right?), but presumably doesn't have the same potential. You'd expect him to be weaker than Anakin, and I do think he's inferior in some areas such as lightsaber combat and probably Force valor. It's possible that he simply focused on different Force abilities from Anakin, so he can lift heavier objects but might not have the augmentation to break Dooku's saber defenses.

Even then, he would probably beat Anakin in a fight, which is weird. I suppose the dark side makes you stronger faster. Vader also probably drove his apprentice far more ruthlessly, and with a greater emphasis on combat, while the Jedi training curriculum likely dedicates lots of time to indoctrination - err, philosophical conditioning. They may even have actively tried to restrain Anakin's growth (as he suspected) to prevent his power from too quickly outstripping his maturity. Plus, potential and prodigiousness aren't perfectly correlated.

He obviously had the potential to surpass Vader. He probably would've surpassed Palpatine too, given that most Force users peak in their 40s or so.

His potential is around RotJ Sidious imo.

Well I mean he already had an extraordinary potential, not Skywalker level, but really high nonetheless, and he spent his entire life training intensely under Darth Vader.

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Surely he's just too flipping powerful for his age
He's 17 years old in tfu I'm pretty sure so if he reached his peak he would've been ridiculous (personally I think they made him way too strong)
But that sort of potential is for skywalkers lol
So how powerful would he have become?

The writers of the game wanted him to be a representation of Luke if he had been raised by Vader rather then on Tatooine. So I'd say around Luke level.

I would say at max around Palpatine ROTJ. NO WHERE ABOVE THAT.

^ I don't see how he couldn't have surpassed Palpatine, given that he's already Vader level at 17.

And sidious says he'll surpass him does he not iirc?

Sidious says he could have been his equal IIRC.

Somewhere, Syndicate just shuddered in ecstasy because of this thread.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Sidious says he could have been his equal IIRC.

Actually he states that he could have been his successor.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Somewhere, Syndicate just shuddered in ecstasy because of this thread. shuddered in xstasy*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNIU-9X5Eso

3:48

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Somewhere, Syndicate just shuddered in ecstasy because of this thread.



Hi, Kirito-Kun

Originally posted by Syndicate
shuddered in xstasy*

Get down, mad dog.

Originally posted by Syndicate
shuddered in xstasy*

You butchered my name lol.

Nice pun doe

Edit: Also I put him in Yoda level potential. His exact ranking is not even close doe

Too powerful for my taste. Made Star Wars seem like Dragonball Z

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
Too powerful for my taste. Made Star Wars seem like Dragonball Z

Kek, he's not even top10 yet he's too powerful?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Actually he states that he could have been his successor.

We've been over this. If he meant superior he would have said that.

Yeah, successor doesn't mean anything close to superior, lmfao. Especially because he says, "my equal" right afterward.

Lol how the heck do you guys think he would have become Sidious's successor then? :P

Sidious is incapable of dying? Or at least, Galan perfectly understands that Sidious is incapable of dying? It's impossible for Galan to not force a direct one v one confrontation? "My equal" doesn't indeed implicate equality?

It implicates that he would gained the mantle of Emperor after defeating him thus becoming his "equal." Why would he pass his mantle on to somebody less powerful then himself?

Maul had the potential to be more powerful than Sidious too. It really isn't as great an accolade as you think it is.

Can I get the quote for that? I wouldn't be surprised given how powerful Maul was after having half of his potential removed in TPM.

Maul wa an actual apprentice to Sidious before Anakin even existed. He oviously was meant to be his successor. And what the hell are you talking about? It's number of midichlorians per cell, not the number of cells you have. Otherwise, Yoda wouldn't be the most powerful Jedi in the Order.

0_o

It's stated in the Plagueis novel that Plagueis while thinking Maul was skilled did not view him as an adequate successor in the RoT line so unless you have your own source supporting your theory...

Midiclorians per cell. If somebody has 20,000 per cell then the total amount of midichlorians they have is determined by the number of midichlorians per cell times the amount of cells you have. It wouldn't make sense that Anakin lost potential after losing his limbs if it wasn't the overall amount of midichlorians you had that determined your potential.

Originally posted by Syndicate
0_o

It's stated in the Plagueis novel that Plagueis while thinking Maul was skilled did not view him as an adequate successor in the RoT line so unless you have your own source supporting your theory...

Where exactly in the novel is this stated? Regardless, http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious%202_zpsqy7z3kwz.png
From Force and Destiny doesn't even have Maul and Plagueis overlap, and it is the newer source.

You know unless he had some major impairments like self loathing and hate, being a cripple and constantly in agony, having mechanical lungs, etc. Not to mention to you completely ignore the statement about Yoda, who doesn't have 20,000 midichlorians per cell, has much less cells than most Jedi, and is still the most powerful.

He's basically Kyp Durron, except he doesn't suck.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Where exactly in the novel is this stated? Regardless, http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious%202_zpsqy7z3kwz.png
From Force and Destiny doesn't even have Maul and Plagueis overlap, and it is the newer source.

You know unless he had some major impairments like self loathing and hate, being a cripple and constantly in agony, having mechanical lungs, etc. Not to mention to you completely ignore the statement about Yoda, who doesn't have 20,000 midichlorians per cell, has much less cells than most Jedi, and is still the most powerful.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/4227218-plagueis+viewing+maul.jpg

So you think that Vader's limitations in the EU were mental? I didn't answer because I thought it would be obvious. Yoda simply has a greater amount of midichlorians per cell.

That passage doesn't saying anything about Maul being unworthy, kek.

Except he doesn't because 20,000 per cell is higher than Yoda's, as clearly stated in the movie. That is why Anakin was a big deal. It obviously wasn't as obvious as you believed.

0_o

"I appreciate that you trained him to be a fighting machine rather then a true apprentice."

Anakin doesn't have 20,000 midichlorians per cell. He has over 20,000 midichlorians per cell which is above Yoda's which is also unknown.

I'm not talking about Yoda and Anakin comparatively. I'm talking about Yoda in relation to the rest of the Jedi. Anakin's obviously got more potential then him.

Also you didn't answer my question about Vader.

Originally posted by Syndicate
0_o

"I appreciate that you trained him to be a fighting machine rather then a true apprentice."

Which is just Sidious lying. Maul was a true apprentice and Sith Lord, as detailed in his many novels, so you really don't have a point here.

Which would logically be below 20,000, otherwise the number wouldn't be brought up.

Because Anakin had more per cell, not more overall. That was the point of the statement.

Unlike you, I don't like to repeat myself. I clearly stated how I felt about it.

Glad to know you're an official source that can confirm what a character's intentions were or were not.

It may or may not be. It really doesn't matter.

He had more per cell AND more overall.

So you do think it was Vader's mental state that held him back. Well cool opinion friend but given its stated that Vader's injuries hamper his potential I'm going to stick with that.

IIRC, Sidious states in Jedi vs Sith Essential Guide to the Force that Maul was basically just a place holder apprentice.

Edit: Also, for what it's worth:

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Lucas flat out says Maul (as well as Dooku and suited Vader) aren't as potentially powerful as Palpatine.

U da man.

Slightly below Vader.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maul had the potential to be more powerful than Sidious too. It really isn't as great an accolade as you think it is.


Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maul wa an actual apprentice to Sidious before Anakin even existed. He oviously was meant to be his successor. And what the hell are you talking about? It's number of midichlorians per cell, not the number of cells you have. Otherwise, Yoda wouldn't be the most powerful Jedi in the Order.



Agree

Might not have had higher potential though. But must have been similar for him to spend so much time on training Maul.


Originally posted by ares834


Lucas flat out says Maul (as well as Dooku and suited Vader) aren't as potentially powerful as Palpatine.



That's Palpatine looking for someone potentially more powerful than himself. Doesn't mean Maul or Dooku couldn't have had similar potential to Palpatine. Remember Palpatine's knowledge of the Dark Side outstrips Maul and Dooku's by a massive amount.

Dooku definitely didn't have comparable potential, lol. He was older than Palpatine and had spent more time learning the ways of the Force and was still nowhere near as powerful.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku definitely didn't have comparable potential, lol. He was older than Palpatine and had spent more time learning the ways of the Force and was still nowhere near as powerful.



Doesn't matter if Dooku didn't have the same knowledge of the dark side that Sidious had. In which case Dooku's extra age would only hinder him in comparison to Palpatine.


Remember Sidious only killed Plagueis after he learned everything Plagueis knew. Maul and Dooku never learned everything Palpatine knew. Probably not even close to his full knowledge.

What are you talking about? The stronger you are in the dark side, the quicker your body decays.

Right, and even that version of Sidious in TPM was more powerful than Dooku by a very considerable margin. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious has far more potential.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Glad to know you're an official source that can confirm what a character's intentions were or were not.

It may or may not be. It really doesn't matter.


Except we know Maul was an actual Sith apprentice. It's not some conjecture like what you're talking about below.

A great many things have more cells overall, and more magical space mitochondria at hand. That does not make you more powerful in the Force, otherwise all large animals would be Force Sensitive.

It's also stated Marek's clone, who is more powerful than him, was no match for Vader, let alone the Emperor, so don't stop there.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What are you talking about? The stronger you are in the dark side, the quicker your body decays.

Right, and even that version of Sidious in TPM was more powerful than Dooku by a very considerable margin. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious has far more potential.



So are you claiming Dooku had all the knowledge of the dark side Palpatine and Plaguies had?

My point is we can't know for sure Dooku didn't have a similar potential, until Dooku learns everything Sidious learned.

The fact that Maul and Dooku may have been place holders, doesn't mean Palpatine didn't consider them both to be his potential successor should things go wrong with Skywalker.

I'd say Starkiller's potential exceeds Yoda's. By how much, I don't know.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except we know Maul was an actual Sith apprentice. It's not some conjecture like what you're talking about below.

A great many things have more cells overall, and more magical space mitochondria at hand. That does not make you more powerful in the Force, otherwise all large animals would be Force Sensitive.

It's also stated Marek's clone, who is more powerful than him, was no match for Vader, let alone the Emperor, so don't stop there.

... ares already provided a host of other sources showing that Maul was not meant to be a true apprentice... I don't understand why this is so hard for you.

If you have more midichlorians per cell then you're usually going to supersede a larger creature with less. Also animals don't have the mental capacity to actively call upon the Force I'd imagine.

In the opinion of a voice actor when the narrative contradicts it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
... ares already provided a host of other sources showing that Maul was not meant to be a true apprentice... I don't understand why this is so hard for you.


The same source states that Suited Vader wasn't supposed to be either. But clearly Sidious doesn't choose his apprentices lightly, and will make the most out of the best apprentice he has available to him.


Originally posted by Syndicate
In the opinion of a voice actor when the narrative contradicts it.



The novel made it clear Starkiller II could not defeat Vader.

In the end he had to shoot Lightning in a spot of Vader's armor Juno cut for him.

Originally posted by Syndicate
... ares already provided a host of other sources showing that Maul was not meant to be a true apprentice...

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/#js-message-16188923

Originally posted by Syndicate
... ares already provided a host of other sources showing that Maul was not meant to be a true apprentice... I don't understand why this is so hard for you.

Luckily ILS is the biggest Maul wanker I know and has a respect thread you can google to show otherwise, a sample of which is above. But to convinece you:
When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."
"Unless the GM wishes to diverge from Star Wars canon, he should not allow characters to adopt this class. The only Sith Lords in The Phantom Menace are Darth Maul and Darth Sidious."

And so on, the novel you cited clearly said Plagueis was worried about what Sidious planned for Maul, which was to kill him, because that is what Sith do. Sidious only stopped caring when Anakin came into the picture.

Obviously, because it's midichlorians per cell that actually matters. And, no, animals can use the Force. The Force is often used innately, and there are numerous Force Sensitive animals, often of Sith creation, in the mythos.

And DP handled this. The narrative doesn't contradict it whatsoever.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The same source states that Suited Vader wasn't supposed to be either. But clearly Sidious doesn't choose his apprentices lightly, and will make the most out of the best apprentice he has available to him.






The novel made it clear Starkiller II could not defeat Vader.

In the end he had to shoot Lightning in a spot of Vader's armor Juno cut for him.

And that's fine, I agree he chooses the best option available to him. It doesn't have any bearing on their measurable power.

Quote?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/#js-message-16188923

Did I read "Unless the GM wishes to diverge from canon?"

Because if I did I'm assuming that quotes from a D&D sourcebook.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luckily ILS is the biggest Maul wanker I know and has a respect thread you can google to show otherwise, a sample of which is above. But to convinece you:
When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."
"Unless the GM wishes to diverge from Star Wars canon, he should not allow characters to adopt this class. The only Sith Lords in The Phantom Menace are Darth Maul and Darth Sidious."

And so on, the novel you cited clearly said Plagueis was worried about what Sidious planned for Maul, which was to kill him, because that is what Sith do. Sidious only stopped caring when Anakin came into the picture.

Obviously, because it's midichlorians per cell that actually matters. And, no, animals can use the Force. The Force is often used innately, and there are numerous Force Sensitive animals, often of Sith creation, in the mythos.

And DP handled this. The narrative doesn't contradict it whatsoever.

ILS is the biggest Maul wanker anybody knows.

You forgot to put the GM not wishing to diverge from canon part of that quote. :P

A creature created by Sith alchemy is obviously going to be different from a naturally occurring species.

It does actually. Galen thinks to himself that he needs to get into an indefensible position to get Vader to lower his guard and low and behold his plan works.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Did I read "Unless the GM wishes to diverge from canon?"

Because if I did I'm assuming that quotes from a D&D sourcebook.

https://media.giphy.com/media/IMuqnp96sdhyE/giphy.gif

So instead of cutting the middle man and asking ILS, you argued amongst yourselves. Typical.

Is Darth Maul a true Sith Apprentice to Sidious? Yes.

Is Darth Maul a Sith Lord? Yes.

Is Darth Maul someone Sidious thought worthy of upholding Sith tradition after/if he died? Yes.

Is Darth Maul capable of exceeding Palpatine? I would honestly guess not but it's not like any canon sources have been clear about it. Who knows where Maul would be if Palpatine groomed him from birth to be his successor, gave him all of his knowledge, and he didn't suffer being cut in half.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/?page=1#js-message-16188923

Read this post. If my answers to those questions are incorrect I'll eat my own foot.

No doubt I hold him in higher praise than most people, but I do resent the idea that having deep knowledge of a field and being able to apply that knowledge in the realm of discussion and debate, instead of having emotional outbursts and calling everyone in sight a wanker, is looked down upon.

Galen wanker.

You assume being a wanker is necessarily a bad thing. It's not. Unless it turns into this *****-fest, I guess.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You assume being a wanker is necessarily a bad thing. It's not. Unless it turns into this *****-fest, I guess. Some people define wanker as wanking a character for more than their worth. At least, that's how Syn has defined it the numerous times I've seen him b#tch about people.

I don't mind being defined as a wanker within reason. A reasonable wanker.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/#js-message-16188923 Good read.

That is he wasn't in any way a worthy successor, he wouldn't have bothered to train him. mmm

Why? There are plenty of other reasons to train an apprentice including that he needs an apprentice to run his war.

What war? And yeah, he definitely needs Maul to be the face of the CIS. I can see the people rushing to join already.

The Clone Wars obviously. And considering how quickly Maul managed to create his own army without the support of Sidious, it seems like he would have been more than able to do so.

Originally posted by ares834
The Clone Wars obviously. And considering how quickly Maul managed to create his own army without the support of Sidious, it seems like he would have been more than able to do so. Agreed. That said, are you disagreeing that Maul could keep the Sith's ball rolling if Sidious died, or that he was meant to become more powerful than Sidious?

Just curious.

The latter. Of course, if Palpatine dies prior to executing Order 66, I don't think there is much Maul could do to win unless Palaptine left safe guards in case of his death.

I have no idea what people are on about. Palpatine considered Maul's potential valuable enough that he made an enemy of one of his peers (Talzin) to get his hands on him.

Originally posted by ares834
The Clone Wars obviously. And considering how quickly Maul managed to create his own army without the support of Sidious, it seems like he would have been more than able to do so.
Sure, Maul's a good leader, and he can bring together goons, but he's not exactly the kind of guy you recruit for face alone, especially not as a child.

Originally posted by ares834
The latter. Of course, if Palpatine dies prior to executing Order 66, I don't think there is much Maul could do to win unless Palaptine left safe guards in case of his death. I wouldn't put it past him.
Good point.

I won't be able to respond to anything in this thread for the next 2 days. It turns out I only have 2 days to finish an essay I thought I had 9 days to do.

Originally posted by Syndicate
And that's fine, I agree he chooses the best option available to him. It doesn't have any bearing on their measurable power.

Quote?


Will have to go back to the novel, but it was made pretty clear how badly Starkiller was struggling to defeat Vader. He just couldn't do it. And Vader was about to defeat him with the high ground IIRC but then Starkiller "won" by shooting Lightning in the hole in the armour Juno made earlier.

Also Witwer explained the plot of TFU3 would have been. And it was that Vader got caught on purpose in TFU2 and he was going to put Starkiller in his place. And no that wasn't "his opinion". He was just stating what the plot was going to be for Part 3.

He was at an impasse or at the very least knew he could not defeat Vader before Juno died, yes. That's why he attempted the desperate move he did watch was ultimately successful.

Proof that Witwer was authorized to reveal the plot of a potential third insallment and that his statements were anything more then his own opinions?

Originally posted by Syndicate
He was at an impasse or at the very least knew he could not defeat Vader before Juno died, yes. That's why he attempted the desperate move he did watch was ultimately successful.




Right. He knew he could not defeat Vader. It was from his perspective. What did Vader know though?

And what was the desperate move again? How did he "defeat" Vader.


Originally posted by Syndicate


Proof that Witwer was authorized to reveal the plot of a potential third insallment and that his statements were anything more then his own opinions?


How the heck is telling us "what was going to happen in TFU3", which he was a bit hesitant if he should share or not in case they still make it, His OPINION?

Wait, so if Vader is that much more powerful than Starkiller in TFUII, how did he lose in the original? Was Galen Marek more powerful than his clone, or did Vader improve?

The TFUII Novel states he underestimated Galen the first time and was more cautious battling him this time.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Right. He knew he could not defeat Vader. It was from his perspective. What did Vader know though?

And what was the desperate move again? How did he "defeat" Vader.





How the heck is telling us "what was going to happen in TFU3", which he was a bit hesitant if he should share or not in case they still make it, His OPINION?

He thought to himself that he needed to put himself into an indefensible position to get Vader to lower his guard and then did so.

Because I find it highly unlikely that he was authorized to give away legitimate information on the potential sequel. Unless you have some inside information saying otherwise?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wait, so if Vader is that much more powerful than Starkiller in TFUII, how did he lose in the original? Was Galen Marek more powerful than his clone, or did Vader improve?

Vader did improve between TFU and TFUII. Vader is NOT more powerful then the Starkiller clone, he just had time on his side causing the clone to attempt a desperate move.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The TFUII Novel states he underestimated Galen the first time and was more cautious battling him this time.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
How the heck is telling us "what was going to happen in TFU3", which he was a bit hesitant if he should share or not in case they still make it, His OPINION?

Because if it isn't his opinion, Galen would actually..... LOSE.

Isn't it somewhere said that Vader's limits were more related to his psychological state rather than his physical one? Not sure.

That was Palpatine's belief. Can't remember the source off the top of my head though.

Source: Jensaarai, let's not lie.

In all seriousness I think it's in RoDV.

dammit

what