Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Rank the pre-Banite Sith (but including Bane and Zannah) in terms of overall combative ability. IMHO:

1. Vitiate
2. Darth Nihilus
3. Exar Kun
4-5-6. Freedon Nadd/Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos
7. Darth Revan
8. Darth Jadus
9. The Dread Masters
10. Darth Malgus

Not a bad list.

Good list, but the dread masters as a whole should be higher imo

Jadus should be above Kun and the rest.

Move Kun to just above Malgus and the list 100% solid.

LMFAO @ Jadus > Kun, pure cancer.

Good list actually, though Freedon Nadd, and by extension Marka Ragnos and Karness Muur, was confirmed to be far more powerful than Naga Sadow.

When was Nadd confirmed to be "far more powerful"? And why does that mean Ragnos and Muur are as well?

Originally posted by Darth Abonis
Move Kun to just above Malgus and the list 100% solid.

That was confirmed in the fact file:



This isn't exactly concrete but implies some degree of parity:

Ah, cool. Never knew we had something that concrete on Nadd's powers.

To claim the latter suggest parity between them is quite a stretch though, rather it's just saying that they are powerful Sith Lords.

lol Malak is mentioned with Sidious in the same manner. Does it imply parity between them there?

On the former, it is important to note Freedon Nadd was growing constantly more powerful over the century of his rule on Onderon that followed his learning on Yavin IV:



I agree the latter isn't much however.

Yeah. He far surpassed Naga Sadow's spirit. Like Kun did to Nadd's.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMFAO @ Jadus > Kun, pure cancer.Shocker, I thought you'd agree with me.

Well of course I wouldn't, given SWTOR forum's incessant need to underrate Kun at the expense of all logic.

Let the hate flow through you.

If pity equates hate around here, sure.

Nah, piteous would be making up quotes to support my case. I'm not that desperate tho.

Oh no, a three year old accusation stolen from somebody that has twice your debating capacity, whatever should I do. Your attempt at Gideon tactics is poor.

LMAO, you say accusation as if it isn't true.

It isn't and never was, I accept responsibility for having used them in debates, I did not however create them. I also apologised for it two years ago, you clinging to that is just plain evidence of your obvious vilification of me.

Go ahead and reinforce everything I think of you Beni, totally not expected at all.

I used to believe that, but your behaviour since has convinced me otherwise.

As if I even care about your opinion of me, you lot lost my respect the moment you dragged my name through the dirt and then hilariously you got upset when I did it in kind.

Don't give what you can't take.

Lmao, I did no such thing. In fact, I did the opposite. Employ memory recall for once.

Nor am I under any obligation to take responsibility for the actions of what, three people from SWTOR? (Though as I recall it was all Ant.) They have a right to make their own judgement, and certainly grounds for doing damage to your reputation when the quotes debacle did quite a number on our own. Nor does it justify disparaging the entire board, when the majority of them vehemently defended you.

So let's not talk about respect, and don't try and play the victim.

P.S. Oh and by the way this is from last year, 2015, so don't pretend it's ancient history either. If it were you wouldn't still be so bitter.

1. Kun
2. Kun
3. Kun
4. Nadd
5. Viti

Lol. You forgot Exar. :/ He is #1

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Rank the pre-Banite Sith (but including Bane and Zannah) in terms of overall combative ability. IMHO:

1. Vitiate
2. Darth Nihilus
3. Exar Kun
4-5-6. Freedon Nadd/Naga Sadow/Marka Ragnos
7. Darth Revan
8. Darth Jadus
9. The Dread Masters
10. Darth Malgus Sadow is below Ragnos though, mate.

Chimichanga hates Kenobi and loves Kun, that should tell you what kind of person he is.

Hint: shit.

Vitiate couldn't have been that good honestly. He was shit scared of Sadow's return and Nadd was already "far more powerful" than Naga, not to mention Kun surpassing them all.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Chimichanga
Wishing for I used this as my username now mmm

Excluding TOR Sith, Exar Kun is #1. Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd are contenders for the second place. Not sure where to rank the rest.

Palpatine was scared of Gethzerion, whom many have below Vader. You don't need to approach the guy for him to be scared of the risk you might pose to his Empire.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Chimichanga hates Kenobi, that should tell you what kind of person he is.

Hint: shit.
He hates the -besides Dooku- best thing of the PT, lmfao.

^ Shows you how shit the Prequals are

I'm ranking just Ancient Sith here.

1. Exar Kun

2. Marka Ragnos

3. Freedon Nadd

4. Ajunta Pall

5. Karness Muur

6. Naga Sadow

7. Tulak Hord

8. Ludo Kressh

5 and 6 are interchangeable.

Even in the RotS book is Kenobi great. The maybe ****ing best novel of all Star Wars.

I don't even hate Kenobi, I'm ****in around. Ewan McGregor is great

Like this?

1. Exar Kun
2. Freedon Nadd
3. Karness Muur
4. Naga Sadow
5. Ajunta Pall | Remulus Dreypa
6. Ludo Kressh
7. Marka Ragnos
8. Sorzus Syn | Xo Xaan

Not rating Tulak Hord.

Ragnos below Kressh? Amusing.

Also, Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith 6: Jedi Assault cites Ragnos' spirit as the "reigning Dark Lord", even though Freedon Nadd's spirit was around.

Originally posted by JKBart

4. Naga Sadow
5. Ajunta Pall | Remulus Dreypa
6. Ludo Kressh
7. Marka Ragnos

Lol. Pall>Dreypa and Ragnos shits on Kressh.

Eh, maybe on par, after all.

I really don't rate Ragnos highly. He has nothing to deserve that; all he has is his "reputation" and completely unknown accomplishments. Tulak's accomplishments are largely unknown too, but what we know is enough to know he is pretty damn high (but I still would like not to rate him).

All Ragnos has going for him is being bossy and showing up as a spirit and acting all like "HURR DURR RESPECT MAH AUTHORITY" like a classical pathetic fat mafia boss lmao. Sure, he is respected, but how can one differentiate it from the respect to the guy who just happens to be the most experienced, perhaps the most charismatic, the greatest leader, the greatest manipulator, the greatest revolutionist, who knows?

We like to assume that because Sith respect power, Ragnos being respected by them must automatically mean he is powerful. But would a Sith also respect someone for power he had, while now he has none of it (since, ya know, he's dead)? It's all fairly ambiguous and requires lot of assumptions. I dislike the idea of instant assumption that Sith respect only power and they will never respect being not wielding the supreme power. Well, spirit definitely doesn't wield one, so going by that logic there's no reason to respect Ragnos anymore since he's dead and for many Sith dead people no longer matter in the slightest (look at Bane).

Ragnos's accomplishments don't mean much, since we don't know anything about his rivals, about his times, about anything. He was great, he was at the top, but reasons could be many. Power definitely too, but how much? We can't say, cause we don't know anything. We don't know anything about his times, his rivals, his endeavors.

Ragnos beating up his beast daily is honestly the same as crediting my grandpa as being more formidable physically than his huge dog since he beat him pretty roughly when the dog tried to attack my uncle lmfao.

Ragnos was implied to be able to defeat Naga Sadow as a weakened spirit, though:

"I am vindicated! The great Dark Lord has come to crush you for your sacrilege, Naga Sadow."

-Ludo Kressh

The Essential Atlas explicitly states that a reverence for the dead in general was a foundation of ancient Sith culture.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Essential Atlas explicitly states that a reverence for the dead in general was a foundation of ancient Sith culture.

Even helps my case more, to be honest, thanks. It implies it has even more that Ragnos's ambigous "respect" has more to do with general reputation, culture and accomplishments, than instantly "if he is so respected he must have been mad powerful".



Well, that one is uncertain as Ludo's opinion, as Ragnos obviously didn't appear for that, but it helps definitely Might actually serve to elevate him at least around Ajunta/Remulus.

Originally posted by JKBart
Even helps my case more, to be honest, thanks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Essential Atlas explicitly states that a reverence for the dead in general was a foundation of ancient Sith culture.

Only problem was that Kressh was practically worshipping Ragnos as more than just a member of the dead, lol. I mean, you could argue it for Sadow just bowing, but Kressh getting all fanatic about it seems like something else entirely.

Bump. Here's my revised list.

1. Vitiate

2. Exar Kun

3. Marka Ragnos

4. Freedon Nadd

5. Ajunta Pall

6. Naga Sadow/Karness Muur/Tulak Hord?

7. Ludo Kressh

Also, does this suggest that Sadow/Kressh were > GHW Vitiate?

1. Vitiate
2. Darth Nihilus
3. Exar Kun
4. Marka Ragnos
5. Darth Revan
6. Tulak Hord
7. Freedon Nadd
8. Naga Sadow

Missing Murr and co., they're probably not higher than Ragnos.

I'd say Vitiate at his peak is somewhat above Caedus, Kun around Vader, Ragnos around Dooku and Sadow around Maul.

@Ell - Read the last part of my post above. Thoughts?

Also, Maul isn't powerful enough to sustain his life for six centuries, create massive solar flares that swallow 215m ships quickly and easily, and form nexuses with his death that, more than a millennium later, can drive powerful Jedi half-insane.

"Somewhat above Caedus"
lmao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Ell - Read the last part of my post above. Thoughts?

Also, Maul isn't powerful enough to sustain his life for six centuries, create massive solar flares that swallow 215m ships quickly and easily, and form nexuses with his death that, more than a millennium later, can drive powerful Jedi half-insane.

Yeah, I mean we know that this was before Vitiate's character creation, but in the absence of any contradicting evidence I'd take it.

Of those feats, only the death nexus thing is potentially important (source?), but even then we don't see that from canonically superior sith. And Sadow is likely stronger in the Force than Maul - or at least more familiar wih sorcery. Doesn't mean he wins in a fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, I mean we know that this was before Vitiate's character creation, but in the absence of any contradicting evidence I'd take it.

Sources don't have a statute of limitations or expiry dates. For the sake of continuity, everything released is expected to obey all canonical material beforehand. Otherwise, it's known as a retcon.



Can you really imagine Maul creating giant solar flares, even with sorcery apparatus?

The source is Timeline 7: Peace for the Republic? and it's on my Sadow RT if you care to Google that.

And we're not discussing fights here, only who's more powerful. Also, which canonically superior Sith don't have that?

I mean I said overall combative ability in the OP. In terms of Force mastery I'd put Sadow in between Maul and Dooku.

Ah. Well, my list was only regarding Force power.

And you don't think Sadow's more masterful than Dooku?

What you mentioned was sorcery - as for whether Maul could do it...maybe? If he gets angry enough he can match blades with Sidious, and Sidious with some more power growth is threatening the entire universe without a ritual. Of course this chain ignores some incredibly large multipliers, which Sadow's ritual clearly is. It's also apparently highly circumstantial, seeing as how he doesn't one-shot the Republic by razing Coruscant or something.

Sadow might know more about sorcery than Dooku, but he hasn't exhibited the same dominance of upper-tier combatants, nor has he ragdolled cruisers.

Sadow wasn't near Coruscant, lol. He was only affecting stars in his vicinity.

Also, Sidious was toying against Maul, even when the latter was enraged.

Ragdolling cruisers is more to do with power than mastery. Sadow seems to know more applications of the Force than Tyranus.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
"Somewhat above Caedus"
lmao.



Valkorion shits on the boy.

Originally posted by JKBart
1. Exar Kun
2. Freedon Nadd
3. Karness Muur
4. Naga Sadow
5. Ajunta Pall | Remulus Dreypa
6. Ludo Kressh
7. Marka Ragnos
8. Sorzus Syn | Xo Xaan

Not rating Tulak Hord. Thats just precious.

Originally posted by JKBart
Even helps my case more, to be honest, thanks. It implies it has even more that Ragnos's ambigous "respect" has more to do with general reputation, culture and accomplishments, than instantly "if he is so respected he must have been mad powerful".



Well, that one is uncertain as Ludo's opinion, as Ragnos obviously didn't appear for that, but it helps definitely Might actually serve to elevate him at least around Ajunta/Remulus.

Except Kressh was an equal to Sadow in power and skill.

I try not to rank any of the TOR Sith barring Vitiate cause I dunno much about them, the only thing I somewhat know is how the protags of the SOR arc couldn't take on the Ancient Entity with their own power and needed 4 Sith spirits to do so, so I assume the TOR guys are leagues below guys like Kun and most before him though you could argue those are game mechanics. Anyhow here goes:

1.Vitiate.
2.Exar Kun.
3.Marka Ragnos.
4.Tulak Hord.
5.Freedon Nadd
6.Darth Bane.
6.Naga Sadow.
7.Ludo Kressh.
8.Ajunta Pall.
9.Darth Nihilus.
10.Karness Muur

Why is Muur so low?

1. Vitiate
2. Tulak Hord?
3. Marka Ragnos?
4. Darth Nihilus
5. Exar Kun
6. Darth Revan
7. Darth Malak / Ulic Qel-Droma
8. Darth Bane
9. Ajunta Pall / Freedon Nadd
10. Naga Sadow / Ludo Kressh
11. XoXaan / Karness Muur / Remulus Dreypa / Sorzus Syn
12. Darth Andeddu

Ragnos seems to be more powerful than Hord, on account of both his supremacy quotes and the fact that Kreia was exclusively in awe of his power when she toured the Valley of the Dark Lords with the Exile.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ragnos seems to be more powerful than Hord, on account of both his supremacy quotes and the fact that Kreia was exclusively in awe of his power when she toured the Valley of the Dark Lords with the Exile. Thx for the info.

Force power only, and only pre-KotOR Sith, and Vitate.

1. Vitate
2. Exar Kun
3. Freddon Nadd
4. Marka Ragnos
5. Ajunta Pall
6. Karness Muur
7./8. Naga Sadow/Tulak Hord(?)
9. Remulus Dreypa
10. Ludo Kressh