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The brief discussion in the Eternal Empire thread made me wonder this.

Which characters in Legends most impacted the course of galactic history?

Contenders iMHO:

Luke
Anakin
Palpatine
Bane
Revan
Hero of Tython

The Ones and Abeloth

Darth Bane
Palpatine
Mace Windu
Luke Skywalker
Shaak Ti
Galen Marek
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Quinlan Vos
Darth Krayt
Cade Skywalker
Revan
Xesh
Darth Sion

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The brief discussion in the Eternal Empire thread made me wonder this.

Which characters in Legends most impacted the course of galactic history?

Contenders iMHO:

Luke
Anakin
Palpatine
Bane
Revan
Hero of Tython
This list seems fine. Though I'd change Bane for Valkorion.

Um...

Luke
Sheev
Valkorion
Revan
Ajunta Pall and his Jedi
That dude that lead the Legion of the first Dark Siders.

Palpatine.

Then Luke, Vader, Bane, Dooku, Valkoriate, Revan, Yoda.

Kenobi...

Shit, forgot HOT. He's up there, too.

Tbh it might be HoT for stopping Vitiate's ritual.

Luke probably comes next for the number of times he's essentially saved the galaxy, particularly from Abeloth.

If we're talking about defeating existential threats, it's definitely Luke for defeating Sheev and Abeloth. Or Empatajayos Brand. Or Anakin.

Oh shit, and the Exile too.

Characters like Brand come in below Luke and co. as having had roles that weren't irreplaceable. Luke and Anakin accomplished things that frankly no other character could have replicated.

Meanwhile, someone like Vitiate was influential in the sense that the existence of his empire for so many years constitutes an influence unto itself, but he really accomplished nothing in the long run.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh shit, and the Exile too.


Restarting the order is rather huge, isn't it?

By that principle you can put Cade on the list too.

I was thinking more that she defeated Nihilus, and nobody else at the time sans Vitiate probably could have.

Kyle Katarn also saved a bunch of spirits from eternal torture -> infinite utility.

also forgot about Plagueis.

Zane Carrick also falls into this category (though he's probably just in the top 25).

Valkorion:-

01. Nathema event (creation of a permanent void in the Cosmic Force)
02. Reconstituting the ancient Sith Empire
03. Orchestrating the Mandalorian Wars
04. Orchestrating the Jedi Civil War (result: Republic on its knees and the Jedi 0Order almost extinguished)
05. Great Galactic War
06. Children
07. Establishing a new superpower (The Eternal Empire)
08. Reducing Ziost to a barren wasteland
09. The Eternal Empire brought both the Republic and the ancient Sith Empire to their knees
10. Forging the Outlander as a weapon against The Eternal Empire

In the nutshell, Valkorion affected countless and was responsible for the deaths of countless as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
also forgot about Plagueis.

Plagueis should definitely be up there with the obvious names like Sidious, Luke etc.

lmao

Fanboyism aside, I'd put him in my top 10 list (Jedi/Sith wise).

he gave birth to Anakin and Sidious. Legit feats tbh

Originally posted by Sinious
he gave birth to Anakin and Sidious.

https://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/remember-when-arnold-schwarzenegger-was-pregnant-in-junior-video-6.jpg

That was for Leg. You just ninja'd me. Plagueis is definitely top 10.

Valkorion is probably the most influential figure. He affected thousands of years of history in dramatic ways. While Sidious arguably changed things more provocatively, he did so inside of a mere 20-40 year time period and personally I think Vitiate's influence over The Sith and Zakuul as well as his hand in the 50 year long conflict seen in Swtor, his igniting of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars that led to the near extinction of the Mando's and Jedi and the rise of the Triumvirate and near collapse of the Republic is more profound. Sidious also had a thousand years of RoT prep to help him.

Luke is perhaps a close second, just in terms of all the shit he does in the EU. Though the Hero of Tython/Outlander is also up there, having saved the Republic and Jedi Order numerous times, saved whole planets from destruction, defeated Vitiate, was instrumental in defeating Sel Makor, stopped Revan and is going to stop Zakuul and Arcann and possibly become the Galactic Emperor or something.

Sidious overthrew a government, culture and Jedi Order that had been continuous entities for 25,000 years.

And they were back in like 20 years.

Vitiate created two galactic empires.

One*

Zakuul counts. It has fleets and has made the Republic and Empire it's b*tches.

Actually, neither of Vitiate's empires were "galactic." Citation needed on the claim that Sidious had a thousand years of ROT prep to help him.

His achievements far outstrip Valky's tbh.

They are empires whose influence extended across the galaxy. WTFever on whatever definition you're referring to. The whole point of the RoT was to prep to take over the galaxy in secret. Sidious benefited from a thousand years of Sith collecting knowledge, destabilizing the Republic and maintaining secrecy.

Naw, the Republic and Jedi that Sidious supposedly destroyed still existed and came back and destroyed him and reestablished themselves. The Triumvirate got the Jedi closer to death than Sidious ever did. Valkorion made an empire from scratch, all Sidious did was pervert an existing one. And then Valkorion created another empire so strong it whooped the Republic and Sith at once.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zakuul counts. It has fleets and has made the Republic and Empire it's b*tches.

Yeah, it's the other one that doesn't count as a "galactic empire".

Originally posted by Nephthys
They are empires whose influence extended across the galaxy. WTFever on whatever definition you're referring to. The whole point of the RoT was to prep to take over the galaxy in secret. Sidious benefited from a thousand years of Sith collecting knowledge, destabilizing the Republic and maintaining secrecy.

Naw, the Republic and Jedi that Sidious supposedly destroyed still existed and came back and destroyed him and reestablished themselves. The Triumvirate got the Jedi closer to death than Sidious ever did. Valkorion made an empire from scratch, all Sidious did was pervert an existing one. And then Valkorion created another empire so strong it whooped the Republic and Sith at once.

Yeah, the Rebel Alliance also had galactic influence. They're not a galactic empire lol.

Your refrain that Sidious benefitted from the Rule of Two doesn't actually constitute proof, since we know they didn't get any traction until he came on the scene lol. So how about you prove it?

The fact that Sidious died means squat; we know from Force and Destiny that the Jedi and Republic end up ruling the galaxy again post-Valkoriate. The Triumvirate mopped up an order already weakened from the Jedi Civil War. Sheev annihilated the Republic and Jedi... Whereas Valkoriate was unable to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And they were back in like 20 years.


No, they weren't. The New Republic and New Jedi Order are separate entities from their older incarnations and different in substantive ways.

Although the Vong arguably would've ****ed them anyway.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, the Rebel Alliance also had galactic influence. They're not a galactic empire lol.
The Eternal Empire is a galactic empire because both the Republic and the Sith Empire are its vassals.
The Zakuul Empire has spent years plundering the wealth of its vassals the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic.

That means the Empire and the Republic are a part of the Eternal Empire.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, it's the other one that doesn't count as a "galactic empire".

It's an empire and it's galactic. /story

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, the Rebel Alliance also had galactic influence. They're not a galactic empire lol.

Your refrain that Sidious benefitted from the Rule of Two doesn't actually constitute proof, since we know they didn't get any traction until he came on the scene lol. So how about you prove it?

The fact that Sidious died means squat; we know from Force and Destiny that the Jedi and Republic end up ruling the galaxy again post-Valkoriate. The Triumvirate mopped up an order already weakened from the Jedi Civil War. Sheev annihilated the Republic and Jedi... Whereas Valkoriate was unable to.

They're not an empire at all. The Sith Empire was and is galactic in scale. The Eternal Empire was and is galactic in scale. /story

I don't have to prove shit. Are you actually suggesting they didn't unearth a ton of knowledge over that time? That the Sith didn't destabilise the Republic? That Sidious didn't benefit from the Sith's carefully maintained secrecy? Don't be an ass.

You don't have to remind me that, but that fact is that Valkorion created civilisations that lasted for over a millennium, his influence was far more broad and long-lasting. Sidious' lasted 2 decades. And who started the Jedi Civil War? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. And who started the Mandalorian Wars? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who started the Great Galactic War? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who started the Zakuul Invasion. Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who banged Senya? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Sheev didn't annihilate jack, they came back and pushed his shit in inside of a generation. Vitiate shaped 3 galactic civilisations for over a thousand years. Get rekt Shitious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, they weren't. The New Republic and New Jedi Order are separate entities from their older incarnations and different in substantive ways.

Although the Vong arguably would've ****ed them anyway.

Both were merely revitalizations of the old groups, created directly from the surviving remnants of them.

Yeah, the Republic and Empire are definitely in an inferior position to Zakuul, which is one of the definitions of vassal.

But the codex says that the Sith and Republic are separate entities who are under ceasefire with Zakuul. They're not part of the empire.

Which also explains why the Republic still actively and publicly resists.

Yet Zakuul maintains Star Fortresses over their worlds to compel compliance.

That is not what vassal means in the slightest. Being a subordinate is being a subordinate. Being a vassal and being forced to adhere to a different government makes you a part of that new government. Deal with it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That is not what vassal means in the slightest. Being a subordinate is being a subordinate. Being a vassal and being forced to adhere to a different government makes you a part of that new government. Deal with it.

Kinda like being a Sith means you're a Sith, right? You're getting too emotional about this, 'Strap.

And you're reaching. But you tend to do that when you don't have a leg to stand on. Perhaps it'd be for the best if you died and let SKILLZ or Sinious replace you. They put way more effort into their wankery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's an empire and it's galactic. /story



They're not an empire at all. The Sith Empire was and is galactic in scale. The Eternal Empire was and is galactic in scale. /story

I don't have to prove shit. Are you actually suggesting they didn't unearth a ton of knowledge over that time? That the Sith didn't destabilise the Republic? That Sidious didn't benefit from the Sith's carefully maintained secrecy? Don't be an ass.

You don't have to remind me that, but that fact is that Valkorion created civilisations that lasted for over a millennium, his influence was far more broad and long-lasting. Sidious' lasted 2 decades. And who started the Jedi Civil War? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. And who started the Mandalorian Wars? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who started the Great Galactic War? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who started the Zakuul Invasion. Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Who banged Senya? Oh thats right it was Vitiate. Sheev didn't annihilate jack, they came back and pushed his shit in inside of a generation. Vitiate shaped 3 galactic civilisations for over a thousand years. Get rekt Shitious.



Both were merely revitalizations of the old groups, created directly from the surviving remnants of them.

You do have to prove shit when you make a claim. You've never been much good at it, but that is how debates work. Make your case.

The fact that Sheev managed to rule the Galaxy and destroy the Jedi and the Republic while developing the two largest armies in history up til that time in a fraction of the time is only further proof of his superiority over Valkoriate.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Perhaps it'd be for the best if you died and let SKILLZ or Sinious replace you. They put way more effort into their wankery.

In the time it took you to quote a guy who has even less respect for you than I do in a clumsy attempt to save face, you could have actually been proving your claim.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And you're reaching. But you tend to do that when you don't have a leg to stand on. Perhaps it'd be for the best if you died and let SKILLZ or Sinious replace you. They put way more effort into their wankery.

Your anger is pleasing, but you shouldn't be upset at me calling you out on your double standards. You've been hanging out with Neph and Legend for too long.

You're starting to also develop their sensitivity, too. Shameful.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In the time it took you to quote a guy who has even less respect for you than I do in a clumsy attempt to save face, you could have actually been proving your claim.


I realised there was no point in putting the slightest bit of effort into my response when you're not going to extend me the same courtesy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In the time it took you to quote a guy who has even less respect for you than I do in a clumsy attempt to save face, you could have actually been proving your claim.



Your anger is pleasing, but you shouldn't be upset at me calling you out on your double standards. You've been hanging out with Neph and Legend for too long.

You're starting to also develop their sensitivity, too. Shameful.
Double standards? Please. And don't lump me with either of those two. I don't see a brand name and like something. I give all a fair chance. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Double standards? Please. And don't lump me with either of those two. I don't see a brand name and like something. I give all a fair chance. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

You reek of their foul stench. Cleanse yourself. And do it soon.

Tbf Tempest may be conflating more impressive with more influential.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You reek of their foul stench. Cleanse yourself. And do it soon.
Please. Liking Valkorion and his beard doesn't make it appropriate to group someone with LeGenD or Neph. Being Tond might, but not that.

One of us, one of us!

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tbf Tempest may be conflating more impressive with more influential.

Nah. It just so happens that Sheev nabs both trophies.

Sheev orchestrated the biggest war in galactic history, arranged for the ascent of both belligerents (the two largest militaries in history at the time), and destroyed the Jedi and the Republic. He ruled the Galaxy from the head of history's most powerful regime. He threatened the balance of the Force in an unprecedented way. Then he subjugated the Galaxy a second time after his reincarnation. And he accomplished all that in the span of a human lifetime. That's significantly greater than what Valkorion achieved tbh.

Neph's claims that Sheev benefitted from a thousand years of the Rule of Two have yet to be proven.

Originally posted by Nephthys
One of us, one of us!
A grown ass man dressing up as a teenaged girl from a web-comic. Are you proud of yourself?

No, I'm proud of Vriska. estahuh

She's entered the Pantheon of Heroes who have Saved Anime, alongside Satsuki Kiryuin and Saitama.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A grown ass man dressing up as a teenaged girl

Neph would often attempt to parlay these fetishes into our sex life.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. It just so happens that Sheev nabs both trophies.

Sheev orchestrated the biggest war in galactic history, arranged for the ascent of both belligerents (the two largest militaries in history at the time), and destroyed the Jedi and the Republic. He ruled the Galaxy from the head of history's most powerful regime. He threatened the balance of the Force in an unprecedented way. Then he subjugated the Galaxy a second time after his reincarnation. And he accomplished all that in the span of a human lifetime. That's significantly greater than what Valkorion achieved tbh.

Neph's claims that Sheev benefitted from a thousand years of the Rule of Two have yet to be proven.

From the perspective purely of aggregate influence, one could argue that ruling an empire a quarter the size of Palpatine's for seventy times longer affected more people's lives, even if getting said empire by building it in secret in the outer rim while hiding from the Republic was easier to do.

Also Legends Palpatine has no first name, show some respect.

TBF she is 7, so she isn't that young.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Um...

Luke
Sheev
Valkorion
Revan
Ajunta Pall and his Jedi
That dude that lead the Legion of the first Dark Siders.

Well I'm assuming that it was at least within an order of magnitude of the Republic's, and that galactic populations have remained relatively stable (by precedent most first world countries are expected to or have already more or less stabilized their populations). Also granted, the Empire controlled more worlds than the Republic, and the PT Republic does seem to have a far more complete hold over the galaxy than its ancient version.

Even then proportional impact might have more utility in the long term, since killing X number of people also wipes out their progeny.



Yes, but here Valky's cowardice might benefit him, as would the relative weakness of his enemies.



Sure, Palpatine is a more impressive figure than Valky, as he is more powerful, more handsome, more intelligent, etc. But Valky arguably affected a greater percentage of the galactic population's lives.



Even failing in such an epic fashion influenced lots of people, like breaking and wiping out the Sith.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Even failing in such an epic fashion influenced lots of people, like breaking and wiping out the Sith.

mmm

I honestly never considered the possibility that Valky being a grotesque monument to failure might have, in the long run, lent itself to significant influence.

Perhaps Sheev read his book:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valky%20book_zpspmzlatk6.png

Given that the EU no longer has any continuity regulation of note, there's nothing stopping Bioware from making a DLC where Valkorion survives his death and travels forward in time, eventually birthing himself in the form of a young human male named Palpatine. mmm

It's not like Valky's fans would recognize stupid plotlines when they see them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, it's not a claim, it's a fact and you asking me to prove it is bullshit and disengenuous. You know it's true (or you really are going senile in your 20's) and you're just being a dick about it.

Nah, it's a claim. And one you need to prove. Because the Banites didn't accomplish jack until Sheev joined their ranks.

That's a fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Secondly, I wrote a whole post and you wrote 4 sentences that ignored everything I said. I know it's hard for you to engage these days but if you're not going to bother then idk why I should.

I was on my phone at the time. The fact that I can efficiently address your post in 4 sentences without engaging in WOT posts isn't a bad thing.

I responded to Ellimist in a long post on the last page.

You honestly don't think Sidious benefited from 1000 years of RoT prep? That is an actual argument you are making for real, not pulling my leg? You are stating this for the record?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph would often attempt to parlay these fetishes into our sex life.

****ing wrecked.
http://i.imgur.com/e1ClrR8.png

Originally posted by Nephthys
You honestly don't think Sidious benefited from 1000 years of RoT prep? That is an actual argument you are making for real, not pulling my leg? You are stating this for the record?

What prep, Neph?

The things I mentioned, honey. Keep up.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What prep, Neph?

This is an invitation for you to actually provide examples of the otherwise "vague" prep you claim they provided.

I'll be back later. When I return, I want this claim supported. Do not fail me.

Kreia, her students were two of the most influential people in the galaxy, while she herself brought the Jedi Order to its knees, and created Darth Nihilus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is an invitation for you to actually provide examples of the otherwise "vague" prep you claim they provided.

I honestly, seriously, legitimately think that the benefits of what I mentioned are so blindingly ****ing obvious and are things that you know to be true that I am honestly, seriously and legitimately insulted that you are asking me to prove it.

Plagueis had a library of knowledge that obviously benefited Sidious, Bane and Zannah collected numerous holocrons and other sources that added to the RoT line and so did other RoT Sith. We also know they performed experiments by themselves and studied the Force independently. If you actually want to provide quotes for these things that you know are true the answer is no.

As detailed in RoT, Bane established a vast collection of spies and terrorist groups designed to destabalise the Republic. Which obviously he passed down to his successors and they built off of it. The benefits of this to Sidious is so ****ing obvious its mindblowing.

How and why the **** do you want me to prove that the Sith were shrouded in secrecy and that this was a benefit to Sidious? Like, honestly? You want me to draw you a picture? Because it would just be a circle with the words "You are a retard" in the middle. Again, this is just basic common sense. I don't know what you want me to do.

FYI, this is me actually frustrated and annoyed. Take some ****ing notes.

@Ares, which is why Kreia wins.

@Neph, meh, no doubt he benefit from the groundwork laid down by his forebears, but no more so than Valkorion did regarding the remants of the ancient Sith and the Eternal Fleet, however both can be largely attributed to making something of significance out of it.

Neph, I'm impressed. You performed above and beyond your abilities.

However, your conclusion is clearly invalid. It implies that Valkorion is better than someone at something. Unless if that someone is Bane or that something is sucking, you must have erred somewhere in your reasoning. Please go back and check over your work.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given that the EU no longer has any continuity regulation of note, there's nothing stopping Bioware from making a DLC where Valkorion survives his death and travels forward in time, eventually birthing himself in the form of a young human male named Palpatine. mmm

It's not like Valky's fans would recognize stupid plotlines when they see them. LOL I legit expected this to come out one day but I guess even BioWare doesn't go that far.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Neph, I'm impressed. You performed above and beyond your abilities.

However, your conclusion is clearly invalid. It implies that Valkorion is better than someone at something. Unless if that someone is Bane or that something is sucking, you must have erred somewhere in your reasoning. Please go back and check over your work.

I'm still w8ing for some lovemaking tbh. Honestly, I thought you'd actually be an improvement over the past but so far you're being very disappointing.

lmfao @ this thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm still w8ing for some lovemaking tbh. Honestly, I thought you'd actually be an improvement over the past but so far you're being very disappointing.

It's Friday so I'll do it, just for you.

Hopefully debating The Tempest has prepared you for a fraction of the knee bending you will about to perform.

That was... An enormous display of emotion for such a weak delivery.

Response is forthcoming.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What prep, Neph?

I'm not Neph, being much smarter, handsomer and more successful, but didn't Plagueis pull a lot of strings to get Palpatine elected Chancellor and connected with the future Separatist leaders in the first place? Plagueis himself leveraged a lot of connections from his master. He also worked with Palpatine to unbalance the Force towards the dark side, which can probably explain a lot of Palpatine's success in finding apprentices, shrouding the Jedi's vision, etc.

Indeed, Palpatine does owe credit to Plagueis for recruiting him and training him in the first place, while Vitiate was basically self-taught, and while he did absorb all of those Sith Lords in the Nathema ritual, it was his machinery to get them to participate in the ritual in the first place.


Aside from that, the primary benefit of those thousand years was the steady power creep from trash-tier (Bane) to >Yoda-tier (Sidious), but that's an advantage intrinsic to Palpatine's potential and so not something that can be separated from him.


Disclaimer: Vitiate still sucks

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm not Neph, being much smarter, handsomer and more successful, but didn't Plagueis pull a lot of strings to get Palpatine elected Chancellor and connected with the future Separatist leaders in the first place? Plagueis himself leveraged a lot of connections from his master. He also worked with Palpatine to unbalance the Force towards the dark side, which can probably explain a lot of Palpatine's success in finding apprentices, shrouding the Jedi's vision, etc.

Indeed, Palpatine does owe credit to Plagueis for recruiting him and training him in the first place, while Vitiate was basically self-taught, and while he did absorb all of those Sith Lords in the Nathema ritual, it was his machinery to get them to participate in the ritual in the first place.


Aside from that, the primary benefit of those thousand years was the steady power creep from trash-tier (Bane) to >Yoda-tier (Sidious), but that's an advantage intrinsic to Palpatine's potential and so not something that can be separated from him.


Disclaimer: Vitiate still sucks

Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origins said that he returned to his studies once he presented himself to Ragnos, who anointed Vitiate ruler of Nathema. With his position "officially recognized," he researched the dark side for a century. The notion that his studies were completely divorced of the extant empire's resources is unattested.

He killed his dad and assumed rulership of an entire planet and had the patronage of the reigning Lord of the Sith.

That's not exactly roughing it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origins said that he returned to his studies once he presented himself to Ragnos, who anointed Vitiate ruler of Nathema. With his position "officially recognized," he researched the dark side for a century. The notion that his studies were completely divorced of the extant empire's resources is unattested.

Correct, I said that he was self-taught, which does not preclude reading. But Palpatine needed Plagueis's personal instruction, although to be fair, this was long after the Sith were done as a public organization, so it's not like he could look up Force techniques on the holonet.



He didn't really need Ragnos to do any of that though. He was already in control of Nathema by that point, and presumably already had access to books; getting the title Vitiate didn't seem to do much except maybe boost his reputation and make contenders to his power less credible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, it's the other one that doesn't count as a "galactic empire".
The Eternal Empire became a galactic Empire under the leadership of Arcann.

Are you guys blind? The other one.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. It just so happens that Sheev nabs both trophies.

Sheev orchestrated the biggest war in galactic history, arranged for the ascent of both belligerents (the two largest militaries in history at the time), and destroyed the Jedi and the Republic. He ruled the Galaxy from the head of history's most powerful regime. He threatened the balance of the Force in an unprecedented way. Then he subjugated the Galaxy a second time after his reincarnation. And he accomplished all that in the span of a human lifetime. That's significantly greater than what Valkorion achieved tbh.

Neph's claims that Sheev benefitted from a thousand years of the Rule of Two have yet to be proven.
What's with your fetish with the largest in history?

Palpatine had his moment but credit goes to Darth Plagueis for setting the stage of his ascendancy.

Valkorion have history of bringing the Republic, the Jedi Order and even the Sith to their knees. He is responsible for orchestrating several Galactic Wars and deaths of countless individuals. He created two superpowers and both of them managed to rule the Galaxy for decades (something that Palpatine would never have).

Hardly. Given his position and certainly the time he had to do things, Palpatine managed much more than Vitiate did. And note that the entire Banite line setup was shorter than the setup Vitiate had up to the Great Galactic War by a good four hundred years.

They were doing completely different things. The Banites were just biding their time and treading carefully for those years while Vitiate was rebuilding a civilization from scratch (plus Zakuul). One it obviously more time consuming and dependent than the other. It's also notable that Vitiates end goal wasn't conquest in the first place.

Still, Vitiate was far more influential. His manipulations in Kotor are easily on par with Sheev's CW shenanigans in terms of effects and he was leading two empires at the same time as that for a millennium.

If only Vitiate was remembered for these achievements. Also, their enemies were pretty much the same. Their circumstances were different, sure - Vitiate was rebuilding a civilization, Palpatine was controlling and converting one from within. The difference is, in almost one and a half thousand years, Vitiate couldn't bring down the Jedi Order, whereas Palpatine did it in less than forty-five years.

Also, Vitiate's "goals" keep changing. It seems like he was ready to consume the galaxy with a ritual in vanilla TOR, then it changed to running another Empire once that failed.

Vitiate smashed the Jedi far more completely in the Kotor era, down to like 2 surviving, than Sidious did with his 100 odd Jedi who survived Order 66.

Zakuul also subjugated the Jedi and the Sith at the same time.

Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?
The events of KoTOR II are an extension of the Jedi Civil War.

Who orchestrated the Jedi Civil War? Valkorion.

Valkorion's plan was to ignite the leaking fuel and watch it burn down the entire building by itself. It was a brilliant move on his part.

Valkorion intended for the Republic and the Jedi Order to be destroyed before he would commence a major invasion. However, Revan and Meetra Surik prevented the demise of Republic and Jedi Order.

Therefore, Great Galactic War became an inevitable choice.

So what? Vitiate didn't have any hand in it. He basically sent Malak and Revan back, and everything else was their doing. The Triumvirate might have been born from the Jedi Civil War, but the lack of involvement or even knowledge of it on Vitiate's part means that it can't be credited to him.

What he intended and what he accomplished are two very different things.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So what? Vitiate didn't have any hand in it. He basically sent Malak and Revan back, and everything else was their doing. The Triumvirate might have been born from the Jedi Civil War, but the lack of involvement or even knowledge of it on Vitiate's part means that it can't be credited to him.

What he intended and what he accomplished are two very different things.
Vitiate is directly responsible for orchestrating the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War.

Who corrupted and motivated Mandalore the Ultimate to start a war with the Republic? Vitiate.

Who corrupted and motivated Revan and Malak to start another war with the Republic? Vitiate.

Yes, Revan and Malak began to act on their own accord at some point but they were doing exactly what Vitiate wanted them to do: to destroy the Republic and the Jedi Order.

The Triumvirate was the byproduct of the Vitiate's grand plan.

Residual effect, sure, but not one he accounted for or even knew about. For that matter, he didn't even know about the Jedi Civil War. Nor did he account for the Exar Kun War, so again, he isn't responsible for bringing down the Jedi Order to two people.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?

I didn't mention the Exar Kun war, that was 40 years before Kotor iirc. The Triumvirate, Revan and Malak and the Mandalorians were all influenced by Vitiate. The Triumvirate were just extensions of the previous two conflicts, both of which Vitiate directly caused. And who cares, this is about influence not impressiveness. Though the Kotor Jedi are stated to be > the PT, kek.

The Stark Hyperspace War is utterly inconsequential in terms of scope compared to Vitiates wars. Surely that Vitiate caused far more influence with less interference is to be praised, not derided. Also Naw, the Kotor crisis brought the Jedi down to their lowest numbers ever in about a decade or something. Sidious couldn't match that in 2 decades of his influence. What a loser.

Decades of war that were caused by Vitiate. And I'm not sure Zakuul bothered the build up tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Residual effect, sure, but not one he accounted for or even knew about. For that matter, he didn't even know about the Jedi Civil War. Nor did he account for the Exar Kun War, so again, he isn't responsible for bringing down the Jedi Order to two people.
Again, Vitiate's objective was destruction of the Republic and the Jedi Order. He corrupted and motivated several influential leaders towards this end. How the events unfolded is irrelevant.

Moreover, I doubt that Vitiate would be unaware of the wars taking place in the galaxy at large.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I honestly, seriously, legitimately think that the benefits of what I mentioned are so blindingly ****ing obvious and are things that you know to be true that I am honestly, seriously and legitimately insulted that you are asking me to prove it.

Plagueis had a library of knowledge that obviously benefited Sidious, Bane and Zannah collected numerous holocrons and other sources that added to the RoT line and so did other RoT Sith. We also know they performed experiments by themselves and studied the Force independently. If you actually want to provide quotes for these things that you know are true the answer is no.

As detailed in RoT, Bane established a vast collection of spies and terrorist groups designed to destabalise the Republic. Which obviously he passed down to his successors and they built off of it. The benefits of this to Sidious is so ****ing obvious its mindblowing.

How and why the **** do you want me to prove that the Sith were shrouded in secrecy and that this was a benefit to Sidious? Like, honestly? You want me to draw you a picture? Because it would just be a circle with the words "You are a retard" in the middle. Again, this is just basic common sense. I don't know what you want me to do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
FYI, this is me actually frustrated and annoyed. Take some ****ing notes.

http://www.preparationh.co.za/assets/img/img-packshot.png

^ For your discomfort; I'm thoughtful that way. Be sure to apply liberally!

Now, before you go and rupture yet another hemorrhoid, let's clear the air: no one denied that Sidious was formally trained in secrecy. But that's not proof the thousand years of prep that you apparently think is meaningful enough to undermine his own efforts.

See, the new Star Wars Fact File #19 states that not only were the Clone Wars "the final phase of a plan concocted and executed" by Darth Sidious, but it also goes on to say how little the previous Banites had to do with his efforts:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/sidious%20predecessors_zpszbx0wo77.png

Palpatine threatened the balance of the Force, orchestrated the biggest and most pivotal war in history up til that date, destroyed the Jedi at their height, conquered the Republic, ruled the galaxy, and essentially conquered it a second time in Dark Empire. Most importantly, per a number of sources, he was intimately responsible for these affairs on micro and macro scales.

Valky only ever historically instigated. The Emperor divinely orchestrated.

Palpatine is unquestionably the more powerful, intelligent, efficient, handsome, well-endowed, successful, impressive, influential, and important figure. Even his cosmological influence is greater.

Which, again, is probably why he's almost always name-dropped more than anyone else whereas Valky is only ever a footnote.

If he's even mentioned at all.

But don't let facts deter you, Neph. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've always enjoyed watching you writhe and wail, flailing in your dishonesty and double standards like a developmentally-challenged toddler in a bed of its own excrement.

Carry on, dear boy. Carry on.

Sidious being trained in secret isn't the boon I was referring to. Sidious being capable of operating in secrecy is an immense benefit to his plans, which I assumed was blatantly obvious given those plan. He benefited immeasurably from Bane moving the Order underground and his predecessors continuing in operating in the shadows.

I didn't say anything about Sidious' plan, I'm aware that he was largely the mastermind. All I said was that he gained a shitton of Force Knowledge from the efforts of previous RoT Sith and that the previous Sith had amassed large amounts of resources, influence and contacts that he could draw upon. Once again, swing and a miss on your part.

You didn't really respond to anything I said or even truly acknowledge the things that I mentioned. Proving that I was right in my initial suspicion that putting any effort into responding to you would be a waste of time, hence my frustration that you needled me into writing a lot of pointless words.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't mention the Exar Kun war, that was 40 years before Kotor iirc.

30 years, and it contributed to the damage the Jedi Order suffered prior to the Mandalorian Wars and JCW. I believe a source(s) state that the Jedi Order hadn't fully recovered from the Great Sith War before the Mandalorian Wars came along, and of course they hardly got a break before the JCW came along after that.



The Triumvirate was not influenced by Vitiate in any way, shape or form. They were around before Vitiate was conceived - Vitiate wasn't even aware of the JCW or its consequences. The Triumvirate was birthed because of Malachor, not Vitiate.



Only Sion was. The rest of the Triumvirate was an extension of Malachor and the Mass Shadow Generator, which Vitiate wasn't directly involved with in any sense of the word.

And it matters because Vitiate wasn't influencing it?




You mean the average KotOR Jedi is supposed to be better than PT, even though Lucas' word basically denies that from taking precedence. The upper-range Jedi from PT are miles ahead, lmfao. Do you seriously think Vandar or Vrook can be mentioned in the same paragraph as Yoda or Mace?



Of course, because Vitiate basically said to a bunch of smaller armies "go to the Republic and hit them as hard as you can" and forgot about them. Palpatine was actually involved in his conflicts. Even in the Great Galactic War, Vitiate's presence was minimal in comparison to Palpatine's.



Far more influence? How so? Palpatine actually brought down the Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic, especially the latter, which Vitiate failed to accomplish despite vastly more prep time and vastly more lifetime.



Again, the Exar Kun War damaged the Order beforehand, and PT survivors >>> KotOR survivors, lol. And Sidious was actually involved in the bringing down of the Order, whereas Vitiate basically point-and-clicked and didn't even realize that the Jedi Order got destroyed. lmfao

And then when Vitiate actually went to war, he failed miserably in defeating the Jedi. The result of the Great Galactic War, for all of the Empire's advantages and Vitiate's meticulous planning and element of surprise, was a freaking stalemate. That's pathetic in comparison to Sidious taking down the Jedi Order after just three years.



Decades of war caused by Vitiate that had far less effect than the three-year Clone Wars. And I don't know what you're talking about with that last sentence of yours.

Influencing something doesn't mean you have to directly intend for something to occur. The Jedi Civil War was caused by Vitiate's domination and corruption of Revan and Malak. Therefore he gets credit regardless of his intent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Whereas when Vitiate attempted to conquer the Republic & Jedi himself, his efforts were stonewalled (despite centuries of planning) and his Empire was put on the back foot.

The Empire was winning actually. It was only Revan's influence on his mind and his own plans preoccupying him that caused the Sith to settle for the Treaty of Coruscant.

Sure, but the Triumvirate wasn't. Nihilus was responsible for most of the deaths during the Purge and he had nothing to do with Revan or Malak or Vitiate. It's thanks to Malachor's teachings, which existed well before Vitiate was even born.

Nihilus was born from the Battle of Malachor, which was a result of Vitiate causing the Mandalorians to attack the Republic.

No, it was a result of the Jedi choosing a type of counterattack to the Mandalorians, the Mass Shadow Generator. Vitiate's influence there is incredibly indirect.

Moreover, Nihilus wasn't a threat because he was born from Malachor, he was a threat because the Malachor archives gave him access to Drain, which was how he killed those Jedi. Vitiate can't possibly be attributed with that.

@Nova

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious being trained in secret isn't the boon I was referring to. Sidious being capable of operating in secrecy is an immense benefit to his plans, which I assumed was blatantly obvious given those plan. He benefited immeasurably from Bane moving the Order underground and his predecessors continuing in operating in the shadows.

I didn't say anything about Sidious' plan, I'm aware that he was largely the mastermind. All I said was that he gained a shitton of Force Knowledge from the efforts of previous RoT Sith and that the previous Sith had amassed large amounts of resources, influence and contacts that he could draw upon. Once again, swing and a miss on your part.

You didn't really respond to anything I said or even truly acknowledge the things that I mentioned. Proving that I was right in my initial suspicion that putting any effort into responding to you would be a waste of time, hence my frustration that you needled me into writing a lot of pointless words.

Missed this.

First, Sheev operated in secrecy because Sheev chose to operate in secrecy. His entire strategy (the one we just proved was entirely his} around gaining power revolved around being hidden. Not sure how that conscious choice is attributable to his predecessors. Anyone in the Banite line at any point could have elected to act in the manner of historic Sith Lords. The fact that Sheev chose not to be a dumbass isn't some sort of cosmic inheritance he received from on high lol.

Second, no shit Sheev gained a shitton of Force knowledge. So did Vitiate, as part of Ragnos's Sith empire and ruler of an entire Sith world. All he did for a century is study the Force before he stepped into the fray post-Sadow.

Third, Neph, you're far too emotional about all this. It's bad enough that you're wrong and dishonest. But to be so sensitive on top of it? I did acknowledge the shit you posted. I just refuted them. You conflate "acknowledge" with "concede." And maybe if you ever made a salient point, you'd get your wish.

Originally posted by keeoe
No, there was no genius to the Jedi Civil War. It was Revan's genius that won the Mandalorian War. Revan came back mind****ed and attacked an unsuspecting Republic.Erm no, Revan is stated to have broken free from the Emperor's influence as soon as he returned from the Unknown Regions and planned to use the power he acculmated to destroy the Emperor ergo. the resultant success of the Jedi Civil War, which would have left resulted in galactic Sith rule if not for Malak's betrayal, was entirely orchestrated by him.Be specific, when even?And yet he nonetheless succeeded in creating a Galactic Empire, and enforcing Sith rule. Vitiate's endeavours to weaken the Republic using the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War ultimately failed thanks to Revan's intervention, and Vitiates' Sith Empire failed in its endeavor to conquer the galaxy, with Valkorion even writing it off as such. And in so far, the Eternal Empire doesn't look like it will be successful in completing its conquest of the galaxy either.

Altogether, 20 years of unprecedented Sith rulership is better than anything Valkorion has ever accomplished, and likely ever will.Originally posted by Nephthys
The Empire was winning actually. It was only Revan's influence on his mind and his own plans preoccupying him that caused the Sith to settle for the Treaty of Coruscant. It was winning for the first decade, after that they seemed locked in stalemate, then the Republic seized the advantage in the subsequent Cold War and Second Great Galactic War.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it was a result of the Jedi choosing a type of counterattack to the Mandalorians, the Mass Shadow Generator. Vitiate's influence there is incredibly indirect.

Moreover, Nihilus wasn't a threat because he was born from Malachor, he was a threat because the Malachor archives gave him access to Drain, which was how he killed those Jedi.

The entire conflict was caused by him, anything that happens in it is because of his influence. Revan's counterattack included.

Which he only did because he was traumatized by the MSG, like the Exile was.

Doesn't Neph Logic require that Vitiate's dad be more influential than Vitiate himself? I mean, technically Dramath is responsible for everything Vitiate ever did by siring him, and he ruled an entire world for decades prior to that.

mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Erm no, Revan is stated to have broken free from the Emperor's influence as soon as he returned from the Unknown Regions and planned to use the power he acculmated to destroy the Emperor ergo. the resultant success of the Jedi Civil War, which would have left resulted in galactic Sith rule if not for Malak's betrayal, was entirely orchestrated by him.

No, Revan is stated by himself to have not broken free and the conflict to have been caused by his and Malak's diseased minds partially blocking Vitiates control only.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The entire conflict was caused by him, anything that happens in it is because of his influence. Revan's counterattack included.

Which he only did because he was traumatized by the MSG, like the Exile was.

You're taking tremendous liberties with your logic here. Nihilus being affected by the MSG didn't pose any threat to the Jedi - it was only once he learned Drain that he was a threat. Also, even if he wasn't made "hungry" by the MSG, if he learnt of the Jedi gathering on Katarr and had that level of Drain, he'd be using it anyway.

The fact that Vitiate wasn't even aware of his influences (not aware of the JCW, not aware of the Purge or that the Jedi Order was close to destruction, etc.) is something to deride, indeed. And he's not as influential because the Jedi Order just rebuilt itself in the same way after all of these events. After Order 66, not only did it take much longer for the Jedi to rebuild itself, but it rebuilt itself on entirely new principles.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're taking tremendous liberties with your logic here. Nihilus being affected by the MSG didn't pose any threat to the Jedi - it was only once he learned Drain that he was a threat. Also, even if he wasn't made "hungry" by the MSG, if he learnt of the Jedi gathering on Katarr and had that level of Drain, he'd be using it anyway.

The fact that Vitiate wasn't even aware of his influences (not aware of the JCW, not aware of the Purge or that the Jedi Order was close to destruction, etc.) is something to deride, indeed. And he's not as influential because the Jedi Order just rebuilt itself in the same way after all of these events. After Order 66, not only did it take much longer for the Jedi to rebuild itself, but it rebuilt itself on entirely new principles.

Nihilus learned drain from the destruction of the MSG. It caused him to cut himself off from the Force and develop his hunger and ability.

Vitiates sole goal with the Mando Wars was to **** the Republics shit up. The results of the war are part of his intended goal in that they weakened the Republic. He wasn't aware because he didn't need to micromanage the war or have direct control for it to accomplish his aims.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus learned drain from the destruction of the MSG. It caused him to cut himself off from the Force and develop his hunger and ability.

He didn't learn Drain right from the MSG - he only became a Wound in the Force with it. He might've learnt how to primitively feed off others, but Traya and the Trayus Archives are the only reason that he actually learnt how to harness his power. Katarr would've never happened without it, nor would Sion and his assassins embarked on their sprees. Without those, there'd be even more Jedi floating around than during the Galactic Empire's reign.

It's thanks to Traya and Malachor, not Vitiate, that the Jedi were knocked down to 3+ survivors. And the Exar Kun War, which Vitiate also didn't influence.



Neph, at this point, you're making blatant excuses, and they're getting weaker. If Vitiate had an ounce of self-awareness, he would've taken advantage of the Triumvirate's actions and dominated the Republic in its weakened state and prevented the Jedi Order from ever rebuilding itself. And that would've been a master stroke, and something you can certainly attribute to his influence. Instead, he wasn't aware that the Jedi and the Republic were getting wrecked right outside his doorstep. He could've had a permanent victory, but alas, he was too focused on studying over-complicated rituals of galactic life-draining that only served to fail and weaken him in the future.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He didn't learn Drain right from the MSG - he only became a Wound in the Force with it. He might've learnt how to primitively feed off others, but Traya and the Trayus Archives are the only reason that he actually learnt how to harness his power. Katarr would've never happened without it, nor would Sion and his assassins embarked on their sprees. Without those, there'd be even more Jedi floating around than during the Galactic Empire's reign.

It's thanks to Traya and Malachor, not Vitiate, that the Jedi were knocked down to 3+ survivors. And the Exar Kun War, which Vitiate also didn't influence.

You're quibbling now. Becoming a Wound in the Force was how he learned drain. That Traya helped him to enhance his power doesn't change the fact that he got it from the battle.

Traya was also turned to the Darkside by the war, so her influences are related to Vitiates instigations.

I've never said anything about Exar Kun. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Neph, at this point, you're making blatant excuses, and they're getting weaker. If Vitiate had an ounce of self-awareness, he would've taken advantage of the Triumvirate's actions and dominated the Republic in its weakened state and prevented the Jedi Order from ever rebuilding itself. And that would've been a master stroke, and something you can certainly attribute to his influence. Instead, he wasn't aware that the Jedi and the Republic were getting wrecked right outside his doorstep. He could've had a permanent victory, but alas, he was too focused on studying over-complicated rituals of galactic life-draining that only served to fail and weaken him in the future.

This is irrelevant. Again, impressiveness isn't relevant to this discussion. Vitiate's goal was to weaken the Republic which he succeeded at. It's only because Revan and Malak were partially able to throw off his influence that he didn't achieve his perfect victory.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're quibbling now. Becoming a Wound in the Force was how he learned drain. That Traya helped him to enhance his power doesn't change the fact that he got it from the battle.

Not enhance his power, actually harness it. Before that, he could primitively feed off people. That's not really Drain. He certainly wouldn't have been able to accomplish Katarr without Malachor and Traya. Nor would Sion and the Assassins have been able to embark on their killing sprees.



She was turned to the dark side by going to the Trayus Academy, not by the war. And she did that after she was exiled. You're now just building a huge chain of links. By your logic, Adas is responsible for all of this.



Keep up, Neph. The Exar Kun War damaged the Jedi Order, and they weren't able to recover from this fully before the Mandalorian Wars came along. That's why the Exar Kun War also played a part in removing Jedi from the Order's ranks, so Vitiate certainly didn't "bring them down to two Jedi".



The fact that Vitiate didn't care when he lost contact with them and didn't even bother to send a scout out into the greater galaxy smacks of poor strategy. Vitiate is quite the poor strategist, in fact, when it comes to having to make judgments that he doesn't get over a dozen centuries to make up his mind about.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not enhance his power, actually harness it. Before that, he could primitively feed off people. That's not really Drain. He certainly wouldn't have been able to accomplish Katarr without Malachor and Traya. Nor would Sion and the Assassins have been able to embark on their killing sprees.



She was turned to the dark side by going to the Trayus Academy, not by the war. And she did that after she was exiled. You're now just building a huge chain of links. By your logic, Adas is responsible for all of this.



Keep up, Neph. The Exar Kun War damaged the Jedi Order, and they weren't able to recover from this fully before the Mandalorian Wars came along. That's why the Exar Kun War also played a part in removing Jedi from the Order's ranks, so Vitiate certainly didn't "bring them down to two Jedi".



The fact that Vitiate didn't care when he lost contact with them and didn't even bother to send a scout out into the greater galaxy smacks of poor strategy. Vitiate is quite the poor strategist, in fact, when it comes to having to make judgments that he doesn't get over a dozen centuries to make up his mind about.

No that is still drain, dunkass. The whole thing was caused by Malachor first and foremost. What happened afterwards is secondary. And having more than 1 factor doesn't diminish said factor.

She was exiled because Revan defied them and because of the war. She went out to Malachor to join Revan. It all stems from the same thing.

Who cares, Exar Kun is irrelevant. His war was 40 years previous, its effects are negligible and unimportant to this discussion. I really couldn't give the slightest shit. So yeah, Vitiate did bring the Jedi down, you trying to shift the blame to Exar Kun is stupid.

I don't ****ing caaaaaaare!

Originally posted by Nephthys
No that is still drain, dunkass. The whole thing was caused by Malachor first and foremost. What happened afterwards is secondary. And having more than 1 factor doesn't diminish said factor.

He couldn't even control his power, lmao, or harness it to begin with. He needed teaching and nurturing for that to happen, and Traya/Malachor provided that. He isn't going to do the Katarr thing by just becoming a Wound in the Force. And you keep ignoring what I said about Sion, so I take it as a concession.



She was exiled because Revan and many of her other students went to war. If you're going to say Vitiate's the cause of that, then that's a concession on your part. I don't think you'd be able to stretch that hard in anime, to be honest.



30 years, and its effects weren't negligible if the Order never fully recovered from it, especially considering that the Jedi spent another few years engaging in the Great Hunt and losing more Jedi there. Vitiate didn't bring the Jedi down to two people like you were saying. Just own up to your loss. Vitiate didn't bring them down to two people.

And at the end of the day, Palpatine's influence >>> Vitiate's.



Well, that's another concession to accept.

Okay, just stop responding. We're going in circles now. You don't need to continue this. What you need is a nice, cold bath to get this out of your system. And I accept the concession. It's 2AM here now, I've got to go, but if you do choose to respond, please don't just continue the circle.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't Neph Logic require that Vitiate's dad be more influential than Vitiate himself? I mean, technically Dramath is responsible for everything Vitiate ever did by siring him, and he ruled an entire world for decades prior to that.

mmm

The infinite regression argument.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Revan is stated by himself to have not broken free and the conflict to have been caused by his and Malak's diseased minds partially blocking Vitiates control only. Quote?

That's actually what I said. :I

Vitiate didn't orchestrate the war because while he did send Revan and Malak to kill things, they never would have reported back to him, which kind of defeats the purpose.

No, the quote clearly states they were meant to invade and then report back.

They were never going to report back because they didn't even know he existed. Do you even English?

From the SWTORE:

Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission for the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge the perfect fuel for the Empire's impending war with the Republic.

Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak at his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He couldn't even control his power, lmao, or harness it to begin with. He needed teaching and nurturing for that to happen, and Traya/Malachor provided that. He isn't going to do the Katarr thing by just becoming a Wound in the Force. And you keep ignoring what I said about Sion, so I take it as a concession.

So what? The Exile couldn't control her power. That doesn't mean it wasn't directly and solely caused by the Battle of Malachor. Just like Nihilus' power was caused by it as well. That he was taught to control is is irrelevant. He was caused by Malachor, end of story. Sion's assassins were born from Malachor as well, they learned their abilities from Nihilus and the Exile.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She was exiled because Revan and many of her other students went to war. If you're going to say Vitiate's the cause of that, then that's a concession on your part. I don't think you'd be able to stretch that hard in anime, to be honest.

The war that Vitiate caused to weaken the Jedi and the Republic. I don't know how you think this is a concession on my part.

Originally posted by SunRazer
30 years, and its effects weren't negligible if the Order never fully recovered from it, especially considering that the Jedi spent another few years engaging in the Great Hunt and losing more Jedi there. Vitiate didn't bring the Jedi down to two people like you were saying. Just own up to your loss. Vitiate didn't bring them down to two people.

And at the end of the day, Palpatine's influence >>> Vitiate's.

That doesn't follow at all. Maul and Savage killed some Jedi too. I guess Sidious doesn't get credit for his thing then! Just because small amounts of Jedi died in other ways doesn't cancel out the fact that the Jedi Purge is what caused them to drop to such small numbers. They would have fallen to those numbers regardless of Kun or the Great Hunt. The Purge was overwhelmingly the cause of their downfall. And not being fully recovered just mean they weren't at 100%, not that they were at 50% or something.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, that's another concession to accept.

To what? I told you that whether or not Vitiate is a master planner is pointless to this discussion about influence, not impressiveness. I don't care if you think he's shitty at strategy, it's utterly worthless to bring it up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Okay, just stop responding. We're going in circles now. You don't need to continue this. What you need is a nice, cold bath to get this out of your system. And I accept the concession. It's 2AM here now, I've got to go, but if you do choose to respond, please don't just continue the circle.

"I'm going to respond but please don't reply because then I get the last word and get to smugly say you conceded to me." Yeah, sure.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
From the SWTORE:

Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission for the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge the perfect fuel for the Empire's impending war with the Republic.

Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak at his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.
So two quotes, though one from the man himself which is more reliable than the randoms who wrote SWTORE in universe, say Revan isn't doing this for Vitiate. There's the final nail in that coffin.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate didn't orchestrate the war because while he did send Revan and Malak to kill things, they never would have reported back to him, which kind of defeats the purpose.

He did orchestrate the war because he sent them to make war...... which they did. What they would have done afterwards doesn't matter.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They were never going to report back because they didn't even know he existed. Do you even English?

Are you? He didn't orchestrate the war because he sent them there to make war and then they did, but didn't file a report for him? Are you listening to yourself?

It kind of does. War doesn't mean, "Go kill things for me." It has goals and aims, just like any action. And since you're trying to claim influence, accomplishing one's goals is kind of important.

Yeah, Neph is confusing orchestrating with instigating. Its obvious that Revan didn't even have contact with the Emperor after leaving the Unknown Regions, so its impossible for Vitiate to have been directing the war effort.

No, whether it succeeded or not is irrelevant. He still orchestrated the war because he sent them to go start a war and they did, solely because he sent them to start a war. Wtf???

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It kind of does. War doesn't mean, "Go kill things for me." It has goals and aims, just like any action. And since you're trying to claim influence, accomplishing one's goals is kind of important.
Vitiate's objectives were destruction of the Republic and the Jedi Order. He instigated the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War towards this end.

Mandalore the Ultimate (Mandalorian Wars), Revan and Malak (Jedi Civil War) were Vitiate's agents tasked to achieve his primary objectives. Yes, Revan broke free from Vitiate's influence (thanks to the mindwipe he experienced at the hands of the Jedi) and decided to act against Vitiate but Darth Malak remained under the spell of Vitiate (partially it be) and checkmated Revan's plans.

Point is about influencing galactic events. And the aforementioned developments fit the description.

Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side.
Luke eventually, through means that have nothing to do with Vader and for completely different reasons, falls to the Dark Side.
Therefore, mission accomplished Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, whether it succeeded or not is irrelevant. He still orchestrated the war because he sent them to go start a war and they did, solely because he sent them to start a war. Wtf??? That's called instigating. Seriously, look up the definitions, I'm not spoon feeding you.

Vitiate told them to go make war on the Republic and then they did it. They were strong willed enough to pervert his instructions to think they were doing it for their own purposes but were truly still doing what he wanted.

Kind of different from your example.

@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side.
Luke eventually, through means that have nothing to do with Vader and for completely different reasons, falls to the Dark Side.
Therefore, mission accomplished Vader.
This is silly example.

Vitiate corrupted and motivated Mandalore the Ultimate to commence Mandalorian Wars and similarly corrupted and motivated Revan and Malak to commence the Jedi Civil War and find the Star Forge. Did he not? Did these wars not take place? Did the Republic and Jedi Order not suffer tremendously as a consequence?

Originally posted by Nephthys
@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion? Because it means the impact of the Jedi Civil War can't be attributed to Vitiate (who was comparatively ineffective in his conquest of the Republic), if it weren't for Revan's charisma and tactical acumen (and indeed if it weren't for Revan discovering the Star Forge) the Jedi Civil War may never have happened, it certainly wouldn't have been such a damaging conflict for the Republic.

Simply put as far as influence goes, Revan was much more so in the Jedi Civil War, Vitiate is a footnote, and an oppurtunist, and in fact was a footnote until SWTOR retconned in his involvement.

Instigating something means you still influenced it enough to make it happen. It's no different from orchestrating something. I don't see why it would strip him of the credit.

No shit Revan is more important. No one is contesting that. It's not an all or nothing thing. That doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is the major cause of the war and a highly important factor. He still gets credit for it.

I'm not saying Vitiate shouldn't get credit, just not all of it, or even most of it. Because there is a big difference between facilitating a conflict and actually orchestrating it.

For example, Palpatine gets much more credit for the equally influential Clone Wars and Stark Hyperspace War, and even the Naboo Crisis, because he actually orchestrated these conflicts, Vitiate didn't.

EDIT: Its also quite important to be particular in these matters, otherwise as Temp points out, we may as well attribute all Vitiate's success to his parents.

Palpatine is responsible for Abeloth's defeat at Luke's hands tbh.

You mean Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate told them to go make war on the Republic and then they did it. They were strong willed enough to pervert his instructions to think they were doing it for their own purposes but were truly still doing what he wanted.

Kind of different from your example.

@Beni: What difference would that make to this discussion?
Luke just turned evil to see why Vader would do it, and Vader wanted Luke to turn evil to see its power. It's like poetry.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You mean Bane.

Probably. Or Revan. Or Vitiate. Then again we could trace this back to Ajunta or Adas. Or whoever made the Sith. mmm

Bane... he started the rule of two
All of those sith are bound to have huge impacts of the galaxy individually let alone on their own, then there's plagueis and sidious at the end of the line and vader as well
All started by bane
Bane solos

He arranged it. I can arrange a date between co workers without having to directly plan it.

Lmao, and how do you "arrange" a war. Send out invites?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, which is no different from instigating.

So how does this semantic quibble have anything to do with the point?

It's almost as if they mean basically the same thing or something.

And you can arrange a war similarly to how a mob boss can arrange a hit by just telling his men to rub someone out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's almost as if they mean basically the same thing or something.

And you can arrange a war similarly to how a mob boss can arrange a hit by just telling his men to rub someone out. Yeah but not really, to orchestrate generally implies the management of multiple elements. Heck in that very definition I provided it says:

arrange or direct the elements of (a situation)

Which is different from the kind of general instigation we are discussing. Hence I make a distinction. Isn't it a synonymous term? Sure but not in the way your suggesting IMO.

Lol, "generally". You're just quibbling word choice. Theres no rule that it has to be multiple elements. And even then Vitiate manipulated the Mando's and Revan so it counts.

Theres no distinction. Its the same thing. This is a pointless pissing contest over semantics. It has no real baring on the discussion.

Vitiate sucks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, "generally". You're just quibbling word choice. Theres no rule that it has to be multiple elements. And even then Vitiate manipulated the Mando's and Revan so it counts.

Theres no distinction. Its the same thing. This is a pointless pissing contest over semantics. It has no real baring on the discussion. Right, except the definition explictly says "elements", plural.

But yeah that's what I just said.

Neph may have stumbled onto a fair assessment if he's claiming that Valkorion influenced a greater aggregate number of people, or at least a greater net proportion of the population at the time. This was because he basically grew his own empire and hid from the Republic for a long time and the influence meter tallied up.

He is wrong if he thinks this makes him more impressive than Palpatine. Palpatine made that leap from controlling half to all of the galaxy, which requires a level of accomplishment disproportionate to how much it adds to his influence o meter. He also does this against a significantly more formidable enemy. Still, these are complex distinctions for Neph. Good job.