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Who is the weakest individual who can take them all by him/herself??

BONUS: The weakest 2 individuals who can beat them together? 3?

Yoda?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xwK0Vhiv6MR62k/giphy.gif

Jaric Kaedan.

Didn't solo.

Them being ambushed doesn't count. Kaedan gets killed by an Empire protag at the end of the base game. You think any of the Empire protags could solo the Masters, when they blatantly didn't on Oricon?

Using operation mechanics as canon is a good argument.

Anyway, TCW Anakin or RotS Obi-Wan, tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't solo.

Them being ambushed doesn't count. Kaedan gets killed by an Empire protag at the end of the base game. You think any of the Empire protags could solo the Masters, when they blatantly didn't on Oricon? He had some muggle spec ops soldiers with him, who the Dread Masters can TP with ease.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Using operation mechanics as canon is a good argument.

Anyway, TCW Anakin or RotS Obi-Wan, tbh.

Pretty sure its canonical they faced the galaxies greatest champions, bro. Pretty sure they didn't get solo'd, bro.

Lmfao at Anakin or Kenobi soling them. These are the guys who forced the HoT to her knees from across the galaxy, while appearing before the supreme chancellor and dark council.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He had some muggle spec ops soldiers with him, who the Dread Masters can TP with ease.

Their TP was being countered.

So they got ambushed, possibly while in deep meditation which they do for years. Big deal. Kaedan alone can't beat them, thats been revealed to be absurd.

I don't know Neph, seems to me that the Dread Masters are chumps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure its canonical they faced the galaxies greatest champions, bro. Pretty sure they didn't get solo'd, bro.

tbh

Although, that doesn't necessarily prove that the protags all conveniently joined up and killed them either.



And also failed to down the Sith protag at the beginning of Act III.

They'd just woken up from stasis. They weren't at their best. Later they're very capable of downing the Sith protags despite the presence of other Jedi and Sith resisting their power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know Neph, seems to me that the Dread Masters are chumps.

Chumps with "unprecedented" and "incalculable" power. Who can rip apart fleets, teleport strike teams, manipulate time, raise the dead, fill environments with storms of lightning and do a ton of other crazy shit I don't even know about.

Marr directly says Nox can't solo them. Barely anyone can fight 6 Force Wielders as powerful as the Dread Masters and deal with all those bonkers attacks at once. If it wasn't for the statement that he eclipses them I'd doubt Vitiate could either.

Apparently any Jedi with a team of soldiers lmao

Yaddle

Originally posted by Nephthys
If it wasn't for the statement that he eclipses them I'd doubt Vitiate could either.

But now we know that he can, which gives some perspective on the Dread's power.

I wonder how Talzin would fare. I think she should be powerful enough, but I'm not sure how she'd fare against six opponents at once. At the same time, Talzin and Gethzerion together would be overkill IMO.

Originally posted by carthage
Apparently any Jedi with a team of soldiers lmao

Even Bane could take a few rounds out of a thousand.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But now we know that he can, which gives some perspective on the Dread's power.

I wonder how Talzin would fare. I think she should be powerful enough, but I'm not sure how she'd fare against six opponents at once. At the same time, Talzin and Gethzerion together would be overkill IMO.

Well, being more powerful than them doesn't mean he could defeat all 6 at once. Like you alluded to, thats a pretty ridiculous challenge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure its canonical they faced the galaxies greatest champions, bro. Pretty sure they didn't get solo'd, bro.

Which means the player went, not that the player and every other PC went to. The only person required is the player, and that's it. The rest are mooks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, being more powerful than them doesn't mean he could defeat all 6 at once. Like you alluded to, thats a pretty ridiculous challenge.

Valkorion would annihilate all 6 at once, doe.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which means the player went, not that the player and every other PC went to. The only person required is the player, and that's it. The rest are mooks.

All I said was that the Empire protag didn't solo. Not sure what you thought you were responding to.

Pretty sure it wasn't mooks though. Pretty sure it was the PC's. Pretty sure you're full of shit.

Valkorion is more powerful than Sidious, so...
Originally posted by Nephthys
All I said was that the Empire protag didn't solo. Not sure what you thought you were responding to.

And I never claimed they did. The protags aren't as powerful as obi-Wan when they faced the Dread Masters. You, LeGenD, and Tond, are the ones who place everyone and their mom that high in TOR.

Pretty sure you're the one talking out of your ass, because half the protags wouldn't even be here on random Ops, especially when some of them should be advising the war effort or running the Empire.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, being more powerful than them doesn't mean he could defeat all 6 at once.

I suspect he could, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I suspect he could, though.

I suspect he'd annihilate the Dread, being completely honest.

I suspect that's probably not true, unless I'm vastly overrating them.

You may or may not be, given that they're insignificant compared to Vitiate. Insignificant to me means that they don't really have a way to notably hurt Valkorion with their power.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I suspect that's probably not true, unless I'm vastly overrating them.
You are.

The Dread Masters are the most underrated characters in the mythos so far.

I doubt that anybody with the exception of Vitiate could solo them.

Revan probably could too.

I've toyed with the idea, but I honestly doubt it. There's six of them, and their powers seem to be far in excess of Dark Councillors. They're collectively better than Kun, too, if we're taking quotes into account.

The difference being fighting one is like fighting all of them, so numbers matters significantly less here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
They're collectively better than Kun, too, if we're taking quotes into account.

That's true.

What quote?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What quote?

"The Dread Master possess incredible, unprecedented power over the dark side of the force..."

-SWTOR codex

Lol that would suggest that they're stronger than Vitiate too. Clearly they hold unique abilities, but they aren't necessarily stronger than anyone who came before them.

Except we kind of definitively know they're not stronger than Vitiate from his "most powerful" quotes and SOR. Unprecedented power over the dark side speaks for itself.

Precedent doesn't just apply to magnitude - it clearly doesn't here for the Vitiate counter example.

Unfortunately they directly contradict each other so either Vitiate isn't more powerful than them or they don't wield "unprecedented power".

You can't have your cake and eat too.

**** you ares. Always ruining my machinations.

my arguments here showcase extreme double standards.

^ (ninjad)

In all honesty, the Dread combined should be a bit above Vader imo.

That's nice, SKILLZ. It's good that your opinion has so far meant nothing.

Qui Gon might need to struggle.

Their powers are always combined. Kind of a part of their back story, bud.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's nice, SKILLZ. It's good that your opinion has so far meant nothing.

It meant enough that a nigga responded to it.

This nigga responds to literally everything, so don't flatter yourself. http://r27.imgfast.net/users/2716/29/35/50/smiles/1751224631.png

I'm more of a nigga than you'll ever be anyway.

Niggatry is in the blood, and the only thing in your blood is THC, ethanol, and codeine. You're a whigger at best, and that's nothing to be proud of.

pics or ur a liar

At least I'm capable of female interaction, nigga.

I've had bitches around my finger since first grade, son. And I don't need weed and cough syrup to accomplish that. Real niggas shouldn't even have to say shit. They probably shouldn't dress like pedophiles either.

Weed? WEED?! Lmfao fam, I'm beyond that shit now.

Three ways and 69's abound for thee who has acid and desoxyn on hand.

RIP in peace SKILLZ, found face deep in a crack-whore's skinfolds.

Sunrazer smokes crack???

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The difference being fighting one is like fighting all of them, so numbers matters significantly less here.

According to our own speculations on the manner, that's true. It's actually been stated, however, that the Dread Masters' true power is only unleashed when they're together.

Just because they (arguably) draw from the same pool of power (which very likely isn't all of their power) doesn't mean they're individually hindered when working together. It just means that when they're separate they still have a lot to work with. Think of it in the same light as a Force Meld, honestly.

And it stands to reason that dealing with one opponent is much easier than dealing with six, especially when they have extensively varied skillets.

Except we faced them all, on Oricon and they died, so if it you want to pretend two of the actually relevant classes went, out of the eight there, be my guest. Either way, they're nowhere near as powerful as you're making them out to be.

Out of the at least eight* there, with an unknown amount of protags involved. Could have been one or three or eight for all we know, but regardless all of them were among their respective order's best. Losing to a strike team like that doesn't exactly imply that you're weaker than Exar Kun, lol.

You're a smart fellow, NewGuy, so you can forgo the "at least" schtick because it only compounds the problem. There are four protagonists per faction, and none of these ops are cross-faction and have no reason to be, so no, it will never be all eight. It will be at most four, only two of which are actually Force Sensitive, which is a big deal, and the rest are all no names. That's only if you believe all the best of the best just happened to be willing to go anyway. Losing to that kind of strike team does not put you in the higher ups in the slightest. The Dread Masters are obviously impressive, but you don't need to be as powerful as Valkorion to solo them, given that they lose to teams comprised mainly of unknowns.

The dread masters are pathetic weaklings. Sirak would probably lose to them though.

Obi-Wan solo'ing the Dread Masters is legitimately dumber than anything carthage has ever said.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There are four protagonists per faction, and none of these ops are cross-faction and have no reason to be, so no, it will never be all eight. It will be at most four, only two of which are actually Force Sensitive, which is a big deal, and the rest are all no names. That's only if you believe all the best of the best just happened to be willing to go anyway.

1.) As I recall, Oricon was one of the cases where the Jedi and Sith worked together story-wise? I wonder if there was any indication in SOR about how that went down. LeG?

2.) That depends entirely on how you define best of the best. I would think mooks aren't being sent to defeat the most powerful Sith in the galaxy (at the time), but they don't necessarily need to be protag-level Jedi across the board either.



I had a feeling you would misunderstand what I meant there; losing to that team doesn't necessarily make you strong, but losing to that kind of team doesn't exactly mean you're not a monster either. Vader almost lost to eight Jedi on Kessel, and only one or two of them was really impressive.



Well, I mean, a strike team of unknown Jedi killed Freedon Nadd as well. And again; a strike team should have an easier time of defeating them than an individual. Dealing with being attacked in six directions by powerful Sith Lords is much harder than dividing and conquering with a team.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1.) As I recall, Oricon was one of the cases where the Jedi and Sith worked together story-wise? I wonder if there was any indication in SOR about how that went down. LeG?

Nope. The only time the Jedi and Sith actively work together is SoR. They may have not killed each other on Oricon, but they definitely weren't working together. The closest you get it having a few Republic troopers defect to the Empire.

The protaqs aren't even "the best of the best" half the time, suddenly Satele is the Empire's greatest enemy before KotFE if you're an Imperial, unless you're playing them, and the Jedi or Sith sending nondescripts to go fight anything is the definition of mook.

That's if you actually find Legends Vader comparable to Obi-Wan relatively right after Mustafar, and as one of the few people who don't lowball him, I doubt you do. Otherwise, I don't see the comparison. We see how the truly powerful in TOr handle strike teams like this, Revan, where he has to actively work against himself for them to even have a chance.

At the same time, I have my doubts that Freedan Nadd would be able to stand up to individuals of the higher caliber.

It sure is, but then you have one Jedi and a few troopers doing the same thing, and while I want to believe the people with fleet level telepathy were somehow caught off guard, I'm more inclined to believe that the Dread Masters are simply overrated. Everything in TOR is hyped up, and rarely does it ever actually deliver. A one off Sith Lord can supposedly destroy an entire city, and gets stomped while amped. An "indestructible" Sith dies from getting stabbed. A man "second to the emperor" can't kill one agent. And six Sith who can apparently warp the minds of fleets can't even deal with one Sith Lord on Belsavis. On Oricon. And so on.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nope. The only time the Jedi and Sith actively work together is SoR. They may have not killed each other on Oricon, but they definitely weren't working together. The closest you get it having a few Republic troopers defect to the Empire.

Hm, fair point then.

Although, wasn't a team of Sith telepathically interfering with the Dread Masters during the OP either way?



Yeah, I feel the inconsistency there. I would still consider them to be the best of the best in a general sense, though; I can't think of anyone but Satele that might beat them.



Well, no, because they're the Republic's greatest champions...



1.) From the sounds of it, though, you do. So why are you trying to dodge the point?

2.) For them to even have a chance? I have my doubts about that, given that even the mookiest of them survived the encounter. In the only in-game situation where killing one or two off could have been possible.



Eh... But.... Ee... I...

How could six lords personally valued higher than Dark Councillors by Vitiate for their power be mooks? And that's prior to their exposure to Phobis Devices... That hardly adds up.

The phobis devices gave the Dread Masters incredible telepathic powers, but that doesn't mean the rest of their abilities match up

But they do. They can raise the dead, conjure massive force storms, perform near-unparalleled alchemy, teleport, grow in size.... An Esh-ka siphoned a small portion of power from a single Dread Master and then casually obliterated a huge statue merely by throwing someone into it. They're hundreds of years old and better versed in sorcery than anyone not named Vitiate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hm, fair point then.

Although, wasn't a team of Sith telepathically interfering with the Dread Masters during the OP either way?

It was one Sith Lord, and they couldn't control the player anyway, which is why they try to demand your biggest fear from you to give them an edge.

They become completely irrelevant when you don't play them, though, which is annoying. They aren't called for in any situation, so while they may be pretty powerful, they become footnotes.

They're the Republics greatest champions when they're relevant, otherwise, they aren't even there. And rest of the team is filled with unknowns, just like there will never be two HoT's in a flashpoint, just one HoT and another Jedi, there will never be two HoT's in an OP, and so on.

1) I don't rank Vader that high, actually. Vader honestly doesn't impress me, in Legends, until TFU II. Not dodging the issue at all.
2) they still would have never defeated him without the aid of L!Revan, so honestly, the point stands. The fact that no one dies is jarring, but then again no one died against the Dread Masters either.

I never claimed the Dread Masters were mooks, just not as impressive as they are let on to be, not that being more impressive than the people who have a week turnover rate is that hard.

Darth Vader.

Nephthys seems to be the only one saying anything remotely logical in this thread.

I plan on addressing some points here today.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nephthys seems to be the only one saying anything remotely logical in this thread.

I plan on addressing some points here today.
EDIT: And anyone else who made an effort in support of the Dread Masters.

Thanks for the save

I just don't understand peoples reasoning. What will Obi-Wan do when one Master is blasting him with lightning, another is attacking him with TK, another in mind****ing him, another tosses their saber at him and the other two go for some bizarre sorcery Kenobi's never even seen? Other than die.

Who can defend against 6 Force users of this caliber attacking you at once? You'd really have to be in the upper tiers for it to be remotely plausible. I don't think people are grasping it in practical terms.

I'd say Revan/Vader/Exar could solo.

I don't think Darth Vader has the resistance feats or hype to suggest he could when Palpatine is bringing him on his knees from across the galaxy, in all honesty.

I actually do think Vader may be able to resist the Dread's mental influence, but that's not the same as defeating all six of them at once.

One Jedi knight goes in and defeats them all with randoms as back up, but they probably take Vader because reasons.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
One Jedi knight goes in and defeats them all with randoms as back up, but they probably take Vader because reasons.

Obviously Freshest, I mean this guy was a Jedi Knight and he had backup from a Republic Special Forces team!

I mean Vader certainly hasn't killed Jedi Knights or any Special Forces teams before....certainly not!

Not any from TOR, which is the high point of all Jedi Knights. Jedi Knights were all progressively worse from TOR onward.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not any from TOR, which is the high point of all Jedi Knights. Jedi Knights were all progressively worse from TOR onward.

Yeah there weren't any Jedi Knights of notable skill or anything at any later time, how silly that they managed to last so long afterwards is just silly!

Kaedan captured them. Theres no indication anywhere of a fight actually occurring. Also Republic Special Forces aren't randoms.

Doesn't really matter if there was a fight or not, the fact they were captured, yet have all this power just doesn't make any sense as to why they wouldn't be able to get out of such a situation.

Well I guess if circumstances don't matter then Sidious got killed by Han Solo so he's objectively shit.

And when the Masters were imprisoned they did still kill everyone in a 300 foot radius. They were put into stasis after that. Rakatan prisons aren't easy to break out of anyway.

Except what circumstance was there in the DMs getting captured? There wasn't anything to note, just that they were captured.

Which if they killed everyone within a 300 foot radius, then again...how were they even put into stasis? Heck how did they not escape from their journey to the prison?

I'm not seeing anything that adds up with their power and their capture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kaedan captured them. Theres no indication anywhere of a fight actually occurring. Also Republic Special Forces aren't randoms.
People of no note are randoms.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except what circumstance was there in the DMs getting captured? There wasn't anything to note, just that they were captured.

Which if they killed everyone within a 300 foot radius, then again...how were they even put into stasis? Heck how did they not escape from their journey to the prison?

I'm not seeing anything that adds up with their power and their capture.

So we can't assume they just lost a straight fight. Like I said at the start, Kaedan gets killed by the Imperial PC on Ilum at the end of Act 3. Yet obviously no Imp protag is able to solo the Dread Masters. So clearly Kaedan isn't good enough to just beat them

Who knows. Maybe they pumped a shitton of electricity into the room. Or 50 Jedi held them down one at a time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know Neph, seems to me that the Dread Masters are chumps.

You become less of a heretic by the day.

https://media.giphy.com/media/QmeB1Hr5fz7a0/giphy.gif

Dismissing the Dread Masters' wealth of impressive feats and accolades due to a vague capture is ridiculous.

Without context, one could just as easily dismiss Dooku by virtue of being captured by a dozen of pirates.

Sounds good to me. Dooku's just an old man.

To quote carthage:

The dread masters are featless overhyped TOR losers.

Wiping out fleets and mindraping armies of Jedi and Sith = featless?

Vitiate dies

Nexus

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate dies

Nexus
Palpatine gets tossed into the reactor or nearby pit.