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Who wins?

Want to say Batman 1 Million, as I'm sure space karate from his era is vastly improved to the 31st century stuff Val knows.

But the truth is, there aren't enough feats for Batman.

Originally posted by cdtm
Want to say Batman 1 Million, as I'm sure space karate from his era is vastly improved to the 31st century stuff Val knows.

But the truth is, there aren't enough feats for Batman.

Shows what you know, Val learned a type of karate that allows him to learn any kind of karate that will ever be invented.

Originally posted by Surtur
Shows what you know, Val learned a type of karate that allows him to learn any kind of karate that will ever be invented.

Yeah, but Batman learned every type of karate that won't be invented.

B1M stomps...

http://i.imgur.com/k8CY1Qo.jpg

You could say Batgod got cheapshotted here, though.

But yeah, I also think B1M wrecks Kid.

Of course the person Batman 1M is doing that to is vastly less powerful then KK.

Yah, but it shows he doesn't just know space karate...he knows PSYCHIC space karate.

On top of that, he could create multiple hard light clones, all able to move independently (and with presumably the same skill as the original),

Originally posted by Surtur
Of course the person Batman 1M is doing that to is vastly less powerful then KK.

Batman has stalemated one version of KK and made the other one look like Rihanna.

Robin has taken on KK and his ally in Trapped in Time animated movie, lol. Kid will never be on Batgod's level.

Exactly.

That level of skill(both physical and metaphysical) + that level intellect(IQ=1045) + that level of tech(ability to create 'avatars', flight, soul-stealing, a suit with massive computation capability, teleportation, etc.)? Yeah, B1M stomps decisively.


{edit}
On the tech note, B1M also carries around equipment that allows him to instantly teleport others to Tesseract Space:
http://i.imgur.com/D9qTxh9.jpg
...And unless your name is "Lobo", you're not getting out of there unaided.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Batman has stalemated one version of KK and made the other one look like Rihanna.

Robin has taken on KK and his ally in Trapped in Time animated movie, lol. Kid will never be on Batgod's level.

Batman fight him some other time then Lightning Saga and Brave and the Bold? Because the way I remember it, B&B was an embarressment for Val, but Lightning Saga he needed Black Lightning to bail him out.

Originally posted by cdtm
Batman fight him some other time then Lightning Saga and Brave and the Bold? Because the way I remember it, B&B was an embarressment for Val, but Lightning Saga he needed Black Lightning to bail him out. Originally posted by Galan007
Bruce and Val fought twice in pre-Flashpoint continuity.

The first time was in Brave and the Bold #05:
http://i.imgur.com/iM3egth.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cb4HqmV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0zQ2Ifg.jpg

The battle was a stalemate for the most part, before it was interrupted.


Soon afterward they fought again in JLA #08("The Lightning Saga":
http://i.imgur.com/WwyVRGg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ud2Axt8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/75fkIRI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KBjAroN.jpg

This time we learned that Clark had ranked KK as a class 15 fighter(for a point of comparison, Batman himself was ranked as a class 12.) And despite multiple cutscenes, KK appeared to have a decisive edge this time--he was only stopped when Black Lightning suckered him from behind.


Countdown #50 retold the above battle--this time without the cutscenes:
http://i.imgur.com/ZGjZ5p2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xTSBD2A.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/159WdXO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LFoz78c.jpg

Bruce performed admirably, but KK was still shown to have the clear advantage. In fact, after the battle Black Lightning said that Clark got it wrong: KK should be a class 25 fighter, not a class 15. Lol.


*Even though these fights occurred the same year(2007), from an in-universe POV the issue of Brave and the Bold was set BEFORE The Lightning Saga:
http://i.imgur.com/7X8eEUI.jpg

@cd

Yes. But in the end, KK's face looked like Rihanna's after her adventures with Chris Brown "The Hank Pym of Music".

Cdtm? I can't beat him on my own. Please call Lord Rand!

http://i68.tinypic.com/osahxv.png

CDTM, PLEASE! HURRY! I CAN'T LAST MUCH LONGER! HU---AAAAAAARGHHHH!!!!!

Can we all at least agree this psychic space octopus karate shiit is pretty puking stupid

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly.

That level of skill(both physical and metaphysical) + that level intellect(IQ=1045) + that level of tech(ability to create 'avatars', flight, soul-stealing, a suit with massive computation capability, teleportation, etc.)? Yeah, B1M stomps decisively.


{edit}
On the tech note, B1M also carries around equipment that allows him to instantly teleport others to Tesseract Space:
http://i.imgur.com/D9qTxh9.jpg
...And unless your name is "Lobo", you're not getting out of there unaided.

On top of that, he seems to have a device that reforms broken structures (as seen in his left hand, when sucking Bruce).

How it works, and how it applies to the fight, I do not know. Does it rewind time in a localised bubble? Does it manipulate matter? Anybody's guess, unless there is more info out there. But it's a neat little trick all the same.

Heh, I can't even guess how many dozens of times I've read the series, and I have never once noticed that. Nice spot.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Batman has stalemated one version of KK and made the other one look like Rihanna.

Robin has taken on KK and his ally in Trapped in Time animated movie, lol. Kid will never be on Batgod's level.

Deathstroke beat a JLA team consisting of Flash and Green Lantern too. Spider-Man beat Firelord.

People keep bringing up the low showings for KK as if it means something.

The scan posted of Batman 1M absolutely does not in any way show he could automatically defeat KK operating at the levels he normally operates on. If this is KK via when he jobbed to Batman then okay, Batman 1M wins.

This is what every KK thread boils down to: low balling him by bringing up the Batman feat. Let's ignore 90% of showings because Batman totally one time beat him, because Batman isn't the biggest fanwanked character by comic writers?

Okay, so what feats does KK have that make you think he can beat B1M? Please be specific.

Actually you are the one who came and posted a scan of Batman 1M and said it showed why he won. So isn't on you to show why? Since again: doing it to Batman is not the same as doing it to Karate Kid.

So keeping in mind his speed and strength, why would this work on Karate Kid? If you don't know his speed and strength, why would you assume it would automatically work?

It's not even like Batman 1M did this to a combat ready Batman. They are talking and then the dude turns around and uses..whatever the f*ck that is.

Originally posted by Surtur
Of course the person Batman 1M is doing that to is vastly less powerful then KK.

Well...what telepathic resistance feats does KK have?

Galan showed a TP attack. And said it would be a winner, COUPLED with B1M's physical prowess.

So...it would work on KK based on his lack of TP defences.

Now, onto you, to showcase these impressive defences.

Why does he need telepathic resistance feats when it's a little beam of undetermined speed shooting out of Batman's finger?

It would work if KK just stood there, I will totally give you that. Oh wait, the guy has dodged shit after being hit by it. Like speed force infused lightning, but no matter, he doesn't have to let this hit him anyways.

Originally posted by Surtur
Why does he need telepathic resistance feats when it's a little beam of undetermined speed shooting out of Batman's finger?

It would work if KK just stood there, I will totally give you that.

Because it is a telepathic attack, as per the scan?

Which would travel at the speed of thought. As, well, it's...you know, telepathic in nature.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it is a telepathic attack, as per the scan?

Which would travel at the speed of thought. As, well, it's...you know, telepathic in nature.

Why is thought faster then someone who dodges speed force infused lightning? AFTER it hits them, mind you.

Also does the scan not say the attack is partially physical? So we assume it travels at the speed of thought because..why?

I mean the attack says it's only partially telepathic, so assuming that means it automatically travels at the speed of thought seems problematic at best. But even if we do..why is this something someone like Karate Kid can't dodge? Does speed force infused lightning travel slower then the speed of thought?

Originally posted by Surtur
Actually you are the one who came and posted a scan of Batman 1M and said it showed why he won. So isn't on you to show why? Since again: doing it to Batman is not the same as doing it to Karate Kid. I actually cited multiple reasons why he would win... All you had to do was read my posts.

...But I now see that you are arguing that KK is faster than TP, so I doubt my logic will go very far with you. /shrug

Originally posted by Surtur
Also does the scan not say the attack is partially physical? So we assume it travels at the speed of thought because..why? Because it's TELEPATHIC as well.

What's not computing?

Originally posted by Galan007
I actually cited multiple reasons why he would win... All you had to do was read my posts.

...But I now see that you are arguing that KK is faster than TP, so I doubt my logic will go very far with you. /shrug

I argued that KK is faster then a beam that is partially telepathic in nature.

Originally posted by Surtur
Why is thought faster then someone who dodges speed force infused lightning?

Because onus is now on you to prove how fast that speed infused lightning was (hint: lightning does not travel at the speed of light).

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524

But regardless, despite what KK said, art clearly shows:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/Karate%20Kid/JLA10-18ThePyre-LegionBoy.jpg

No ducking.

I just don't think KK was serious when he said he ducked (and as I am not trying to be biased, I also post the scan):
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/Karate%20Kid/JLA10-25ThePyre-LegionBoy.jpg

You can clearly see the smirk on his face.

Edit: the beam is not 'partially' telepathic. It is 100% telepathic. The kick? Is not.

Can someone explain to me wtf is speed force infused lightning? Im having an aneurysm just reading the phrase

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because onus is now on you to prove how fast that speed infused lightning was (hint: lightning does not travel at the speed of light).

http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524

But regardless, despite what KK said, art clearly shows:

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/silicondream/media/Karate%20Kid/JLA10-18ThePyre-LegionBoy.jpg

No ducking.

I just don't think KK was serious when he said he ducked (and as I am not trying to be biased, I also post the scan):
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/silicondream/Karate%20Kid/JLA10-25ThePyre-LegionBoy.jpg

You can clearly see the smirk on his face.

So just to be clear: an attack is said to be partially telepathic and it's automatically the speed of thought. An attack is infused with the speed force and "it's on you" to show how fast is it?

Alrighty, no point in furthering this.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can someone explain to me wtf is speed force infused lightning? Im having an aneurysm just reading the phrase

The speed force infuses people with super speed, it makes them faster. I'm struggling to see why you can't figure out what infusing lightning with the speed force means. Why is this a problem for you? Which words don't you understand?

For Surtur:

The WHOLE move is partially TP (the beam) AND physical (the kick). It is two attacks, simultaneously (imagine Prof X kic..oh wait. Imagine Black Bolt screaming whilst punching at the same time, or Supes HVing and freezebreathing at the same time...then calling it the SuperAbhi hot'n'cold Death Move).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
For Surtur:

The WHOLE move is partially TP (the beam) AND physical (the kick). It is two attacks, simultaneously (imagine Prof X kic..oh wait. Imagine Black Bolt screaming whilst punching at the same time, or Supes HVing and freezebreathing at the same time...then calling it the SuperAbhi hot'n'cold Death Move).

But freeze breath and heat vision are two separate powers. He says the POWER he is using is partially telepathic. A kick is just a friggin kick dude, why assume THAT is part of it? That makes no sense.

"The attack is telepathic as well as physical" means he is talking about the SAME attack. Comparing it to heat vision and freeze breath makes no sense.

Originally posted by Surtur
So just to be clear: an attack is said to be partially telepathic and it's automatically the speed of thought. An attack is infused with the speed force and "it's on you" to show how fast is it?

Alrighty, no point in furthering this.

The move is comprised of two attacks simultaneously. A spin kick to the midsection, AND a TP attack. Not hard to imagine, considering it's from an octopus species with multiple appendages.

So the TP attack is 100% the speed of thought, and the kick is 100% the speed of B1M.

I then showed how lightning is not all 'that' fast, and moreover, there is room for doubt that he even ducked it (ducking implies it went over his head. Art clearly does not show this). Whilst said with a smirk.

But no you compared it to heat vision and freeze breath, which are two separate attacks. Batman says the attack is telepathic and physical. He is talking about the same attack having multiple properties.

Your argument is it's two separate attacks that Batman phrased to sound like 1 attack with two different properties. This flat out makes *no* sense.

It's not purely telepathic, we have no reason to assume it's the speed of thought, and thus the lightning feat isn't needed to say he can dodge it.

Originally posted by Surtur
But freeze breath and heat vision are two separate powers. He says the POWER he is using is partially telepathic. A kick is just a friggin kick dude, why assume THAT is part of it? That makes no sense.

"The attack is telepathic as well as physical" means he is talking about the SAME attack. Comparing it to heat vision and freeze breath makes no sense.

Nope, the MOVE is both physical AND telepathic. No 'partial' about it.

Originally posted by Surtur
But no you compared it to heat vision and freeze breath, which are two separate attacks. Batman says the attack is telepathic and physical. He is talking about the same attack having multiple properties.

Yes, as it was developed by telepathic aliens.

Imagine Xavier punching whilst using his TP. Or Kid Omega kicking and using TP. Or Cable, punching and using TP, or....you get the picture.

Originally posted by Surtur
The speed force infuses people with super speed, it makes them faster. I'm struggling to see why you can't figure out what infusing lightning with the speed force means. Why is this a problem for you? Which words don't you understand?

Dont condescend. I just asked a question why are u soo...defensive? So this happened on panel? A bolt of lightning was infused with the speed force? Ive never seen it thats y i asked

Christ almighty... It's the SAME attack. He just mindphucks you while he simultaneously attacks you physically.

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Seriously. srsly

But you could just as easily take it to mean the beam has a physical impact on you and effects you telepathically. Why is this automatically an attack that must move at the speed of thought. He shot a friggin finger beam that puts the telepathic whammy on you. But it's HOLY SHIT HOW COULD U THINK THIS ISN'T THE SPEED OF THOUGHT!!!!

No, we can agree to disagree on that I guess. It's really not clear.

Originally posted by Surtur
But you could just as easily take it to mean the beam has a physical impact on you and effects you telepathically. Why is this automatically an attack that must move at the speed of thought.

Then...what's the kick for? Is B1M now doing THREE things simultaneously? A kick, and firing a beam that simultaneously punches you AND mindphucks you?

IOW, a teleKINETIC attack? But no words to that effect were used.

And how fast would this 'partial' TP attack be moving at, now?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then...what's the kick for? Is B1M now doing THREE things simultaneously? A kick, and firing a beam that simultaneously punches you AND mindphucks you?

IOW, a teleKINETIC attack? But no words to that effect were used.

And how fast would this 'partial' TP attack be moving at, now?

Maybe he just followed up with a kick? Also EXACTLY, we don't know how fast it is! Why are we acting like we do?

Nothing about it looks fast, but this move we don't know much about is something we can sit here and put a speed figure on?

Surtur, what martial artists has KK beaten?

Because we are going by the dialogue.

It says its telepathic. So....travels at the speed of telepathy. I.e. thought.

If you want to argue it is ALSO physical, sure. Photons have mass. They can have a physical effect (solar sails). They travel at the speed of light.

....

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ almighty... It's the SAME attack. He just mindphucks you while he simultaneously attacks you physically.

This is not a hard concept to grasp. Seriously. srsly

...And arguing that TP doesn't move at the speed of thought is... A pretty strange logic, tbh. If it doesn't move at the speed of thought, then how fast do you think it moves..? none

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because we are going by the dialogue.

It says its telepathic. So....travels at the speed of telepathy. I.e. thought.

If you want to argue it is ALSO physical, sure. Photons have mass. They can have a physical effect (solar sails). They travel at the speed of light.

But it says it's partially telepathic. The dialogue doesn't say the kick is part of it or anything like that. The dialogue does not give us any indication of how fast his move works.

So your argument is either it's the speed of thought or the speed of light lol. There is nothing left to say, at this point why do people on this board use the character of KK? They clearly can't accept him for whatever reason, but now if Batman does some stupid shit with karate it's okay.

Why use him if it's going to be "lol he got beat by batman" essentially every time?

Originally posted by Galan007
....



...And arguing that TP doesn't move at the speed of thought is... A pretty strange logic, tbh. If it doesn't move at the speed of thought, then how fast do you think it moves..? none

You chide me for not reading posts, but then don't read them yourself. Since once again: I've said I don't think it's 100% TP. Where did I say telepathy doesn't move at the speed of thought? I've said partially telepathic karate beams that steal your soul don't move that quick.

Your reaction is to behave like I just said 2+2 actually equals 5.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Dont condescend. I just asked a question why are u soo...defensive? So this happened on panel? A bolt of lightning was infused with the speed force? Ive never seen it thats y i asked

Lol are you f*cking with me or what? I have seen you reply in far more nasty a manner to people asking simple questions, etc. It's a thing you do, and yet if someone is "defensive" with you you're truly shocked.

I can't tell if you truly don't realize how you behave or if you're just joking around.

Originally posted by Surtur
You chide me for not reading posts, but then don't read them yourself. Since once again: I've said I don't think it's 100% TP. Where did I say telepathy doesn't move at the speed of thought? I've said partially telepathic karate beams that steal your soul don't move that quick.

Your reaction is to behave like I just said 2+2 actually equals 5. My reaction is one of slight frustration, given that you are making such a cut-and-dry scene WAY more complicated than it should be.

Again: It's the SAME attack. He just mindphucks you while he simultaneously attacks you physically--we literally SAW him doing this. The whole time you've been acting like the TP portion of the attack inextricably relates to physicality, thus we can't quantify how fast it travels. That's just silly. TP travels at the speed of thought. That much is a rudimentary concept, and I legitimately don't know why you're arguing it? Do you want KK to win that badly, or what?

Also, the soul-stealing move has NOTHING to do with the aforementioned. B1M used a different piece of his standard equipment/tech to accomplish that... Which came AFTER he'd already incapacitated Bruce with his Physical/Metaphysical move.

But again, I have said I don't believe it's 100% telepathic. You can disagree, but it's dishonest to say I'm saying telepathy isn't at the speed of thought. It shows a lack of reading posts, which is the same thing you tossed out at me.

I think the scan could be interpreted in a number of different ways, but no I actually don't care enough about KK to continually argue it. I just find it silly that whatever Batman does there is something people assume you need some high end level of super speed to dodge.

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol are you f*cking with me or what? I have seen you reply in far more nasty a manner to people asking simple questions, etc. It's a thing you do, and yet if someone is "defensive" with you you're truly shocked.

I can't tell if you truly don't realize how you behave or if you're just joking around.

Ok so you're on your period. Got it.





Can someone ELSE explain to me what happened? Was the bolt of lightning infused with the speed force?

No, you honestly can't interpret the scene/statement multiple ways unless you're really trying to look for ways to downplay or w/e. B1M explicitly states the attack is physical AND telepathic. IOW, he attacks your body AND your mind simultaneously--again we literally SAW him doing this.

The telepathic portion of the attack is just that: telepathic... And telepathy works at the speed of thought.


So yeah, you can believe whatever you want, but your logic here doesn't make any sense. I think you're of the opinion that people are trying to give B1M unwarranted wank. That is not the case at all.

Galan, the main question here, imo, is could Batman 1mil's hold his with a Superman, Mon El, or Ultra Boy. Does he have the feats to support this?

Because Val essentially = a Kryptonain, in speed, strength, striking power, and durability. Many seem to either forget that, or disregard his better feats when he's not taking on Superboy. Slade Wilson, Captain America, Black Panther, and Iron Fist have been argued as able to beat him due to double standard logic..

But he really is a "faux street", looking at the big picture. A ringer. Not perfectly on Kal's tier, of course.. He can be dropped be energy as easily as any human, for example.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Surtur, what martial artists has KK beaten?

He looked superior to Batman.

Originally posted by Zack M
He looked superior to Batman.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cdtm? I can't beat him on my own. Please call Lord Rand!

http://i68.tinypic.com/osahxv.png

CDTM, PLEASE! HURRY! I CAN'T LAST MUCH LONGER! HU---AAAAAAARGHHHH!!!!!

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Ok so you're on your period. Got it.


But wait does this mean you are always PMS'ing then? It explains a lot. You want a brownie? I remember this one commercial about a PMS drug and the chick was all "grrr I'm on my period I want a brownie". Do you want a brownie?

Originally posted by Zack M
He looked superior to Batman.

He is actually superior to Batman. We certainly pretend he isn't, as long as I can post a "Deathstroke vs Green Lantern and Flash" fight and people come and say Deathstroke wins.

Originally posted by cdtm
Galan, the main question here, imo, is could Batman 1mil's hold his with a Superman, Mon El, or Ultra Boy. Does he have the feats to support this?

Because Val essentially = a Kryptonain, in speed, strength, striking power, and durability. Many seem to either forget that, or disregard his better feats when he's not taking on Superboy. Are you joking? If Val had Kryptonian stats, Bruce would have been dealt with effortlessly. srsly

B1M has the skill/know-how to down Bruce with a single attack, and the standard tech to compete with top-tiers.

Phuck sake, Galan, I will only explain this once, as it's your birthday:

KK = Kryptonians, and = Batman.

B1M >>> Batman, and therefore, >>>Kryptonians.

Yep, Spider-man = Firelord and Deathstroke = Flash and Green Lantern. Just like in South America you can find rivers made of butterscotch and tree's that literally grow nothing but snickers bars.

Tis a magical land we live in, aye?

So you're saying a human who knows space karate being equal to some of the strongest/fastest aliens in comic book history, os ok....

But being on the level of another human is PIS?

And then, wait, let me get this straight....in the same breath, decry ANOTHER human knowing space karate as stupid?

I mean, you still haven't said what KK can do for a win. But endlessly be on the defensive, and try to downplay B1M instead.....

No I'm just being crazy and saying take a character as their whole and don't lowball them by constantly bringing up low end feats. Which some people were thumbing motherf*ckers up for the "he got beat by Batman" thing.

I think my point was KK avoids his beam and punches his head off. But we couldn't agree on the speed of the attack and thus there is no point to continue. Neither of us could really concretely prove the speed of the attack either way, and it's obviously the only chance Batman has at winning so..you see the dilemma? For instance we both know KK even has other speed feats besides the whole speed force lightning thing, but why bother?

I mean dude you sort of responded like you find the Deathstroke showings legit? If I made Deathstroke vs Flash, would you be one of the people saying he wins? The reason I find the Deathstroke thing silly is because of how he is normally portrayed, and likewise KK is normally portrayed as far above Batman. I have to believe deep down you know this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Phuck sake, Galan, I will only explain this once, as it's your birthday:

KK = Kryptonians, and = Batman.

B1M >>> Batman, and therefore, >>>Kryptonians. http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/1143/14a90880-d1b9-0133-f112-0a6c20e5e327.gif

Galan if I post Batman vs Karate Kid as a topic right now, what would be your response to it?

Originally posted by Surtur
No I'm just being crazy and saying take a character as their whole and don't lowball them by constantly bringing up low end feats. Which some people were thumbing motherf*ckers up for the "he got beat by Batman" thing.

I think my point was KK avoids his beam and punches his head off. But we couldn't agree on the speed of the attack and thus there is no point to continue. Neither of us could really concretely prove the speed of the attack either way, and it's obviously the only chance Batman has at winning so..you see the dilemma? For instance we both know KK even has other speed feats besides the whole speed force lightning thing, but why bother?

I mean dude you sort of responded like you find the Deathstroke showings legit? If I made Deathstroke vs Flash, would you be one of the people saying he wins? The reason I find the Deathstroke thing silly is because of how he is normally portrayed, and likewise KK is normally portrayed as far above Batman. I have to believe deep down you know this.

Erm, no I didn't? And never thumbed people up for the Batman beating him thing.

Over 500m. Long distance. B1M can create multiple clones (here, there are a dozen):
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4514652-dccomics1m1pg16.jpg

Which can be intangible, or physical, with the skills of the original:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4515277-detectivecomics1mpg10.jpg

Go invisible:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4514654-nightwing1000000+15.jpg

Control gravity (so sure, he could make KK lighter - or heavier. Yes, I know KK has his Legion Flight Ring):
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/5058734-0808410241-45168.jpg

And if we want to talk speedsters, here he is taking Johnny Quick, a guy known for blitzing right out the bat AND going for the kill, out:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4639990-convergence+-+crime+syndicate+%282015%29+002-009.jpg

So again, over 500m, B1M can create multiple clones with a wave of his hand, have some of them control gravity, others using TP octopi attacks, spam neurotoxins etc etc, whilst the REAL B1M goes invisible and cloaked, and takes KK out.

Bear in mind, as few appearances as KK has, B1M has even fewer. So 'OOC' type arguments won't be able to be used here.

I said some people thumbed him up not you, but same question: I post Batman vs KK, who wins?

Originally posted by Surtur
Galan if I post Batman vs Karate Kid as a topic right now, what would be your response to it? KK would win after a very long, great fight.

But the problem here is that you keep comparing B1M to 'standard' Batman/Bruce, when the latter is VASTLY superior in every area that matters. It's like comparing Joe Fixit to WWH.

Originally posted by Galan007
Are you joking? If Val had Kryptonian stats, Bruce would have been dealt with effortlessly. srsly

B1M has the skill/know-how to down Bruce with a single attack, and the standard tech to compete with top-tiers.

No, I'm quite serious.

By various feats alone, he should have been easily dealt with. Is Batman's armor tougher then secondary adamantium? Can he duck lightning, or spar with Kon El to the point the kids winds up frustrated and destroys the entire floor?

This isn't Spidey beating down Firelord. Val was established from day one as a peer to Superboy, and he has various feats and confrontations that support this, such as damaging the secondary adamantium like substance that it took a berserk Superboy to damage (And is used to line Validus's cell).

And while, granted, there are many Val Armorr versions, they ALL have a few things in common:

1. Being able to stagger/fight a Superboy clone, if not defeat.

2. Being capable of reacting to Kryptonian level speed.

3. Striking feats that put Karnak to shame.

Every single one has some examples.

Originally posted by Galan007
KK would win after a very long, great fight.

But the problem here is that you keep comparing B1M to 'standard' Batman/Bruce, when the latter is VASTLY superior in every area that matters. It's like comparing Joe Fixit to WWH.

So Batman will give KK a long great fight, I see. Alrighty. Nothing more needs to be said.

Well wait one more, Superman vs Batman, what happens? How long does that fight last? I mean if he gives KK a long great fight surely he could give Superman pause, right?

So Batman stalemating KK the first time they fough, and giving him a great fight the second time around = PIS, iyo?

Originally posted by Galan007
So Batman stalemating KK the first time they fough, and giving him a great fight the second time around = PIS, iyo?

Unless KK was holding back massively, but then if it's not PIS, Batman could give Superman a decent fight, right? I mean not a GREAT one, but decent, correct?

Originally posted by Galan007
So Batman stalemating KK the first time they fough, and giving him a great fight the second time around = PIS, iyo?

Batman taking a punch from a guy who shatters mountains certainly is.

Originally posted by Surtur
So Batman will give KK a long great fight, I see. Alrighty. Nothing more needs to be said.

Well wait one more, Superman vs Batman, what happens? How long does that fight last? I mean if he gives KK a long great fight surely he could give Superman pause, right? What the hell are you talking about? You ask me a question... I give you a logical/unbiased answer... Then you're a smart ass for no reason?

Lol, grow up. We can continue this convo when you learn to stop projecting your butthurt onto others for no reason.

Originally posted by Galan007
What the hell are you talking about? You ask me a question... I give you a logical/unbiased answer... Then you're a smart ass for no reason?

Grow up a bit. We can continue this convo when you learn to stop projecting your butthurt onto others for no reason.

I'm taking the things you say to their logical conclusions. If Batman can give KK a "great long" fight, then he could at least give Superman a decent fight. Do you disagree with this statement? If you don't disagree with me then what you said actually wasn't logical at all.

If you do disagree, why? Why couldn't Batman give Superman a decent fight if he can give someone who does the shit KK does a "great long" fight?

Also can you tell me what the deal is with certain people here? Some will act like a smart ass to people, but then if it gets turned around they suddenly get up in arms and are all "omg how could you do this?" . It's just..weird to me.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm taking the things you say to their logical conclusions. If Batman can give KK a "great long" fight, then he could at least give Superman a decent fight. Do you disagree with this statement?

If you do, why? Why couldn't Batman give Superman a decent fight if he can give someone who does the shit KK does a "great long" fight? So the Silver Age showings you're referencing represent his 'average', and his fightS with Batman are the outliers, iyo..?

Lol. Nice logic, as always.

Who said average? He has a bunch of high end feats, I go by those. You still haven't answered me: Can Batman give Superman a decent fight yes or no? Why avoid it? If you feel Batman could give KK a long great fight then you MUST think this, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. If you continually avoid it I will just take it to mean yes you think he could give Superman a decent fight.

Scans of post-Crisis KK giving Superman a fight? Unless you can provide said evidence, then this little tangent of yours is entirely moot, and just makes you look like an arrogant buffoon.

Now, had the thread specified "Silver Age" KK, this would be an entirely different story... But we certainly don't default to Silver Age iterations, lol.

He beat someone while he was sick that gave Supergirl trouble. So anyone giving him a long great fight should be able to at least give Supes a decent fight.

Oh but if you don't like that example, Batman vs Supergirl then? He gives her a decent fight then, right?

Also who said this was Silver Age KK? He'd slap the shit out of Batman 1M.

facepalm

And with that strawman, I think we can stop. This discussion has done nothing but devolve into utter stupidity that I want no part of, tbh. If you feel the urge, you can respond to this in whatever antagonistic manner you feel is appropriate... But I won't be responding back either way.



Anyway...
I'd be happy to continue this debate with anyone else who can have a cohesive and mature discussion. Frankly, it has me intrigued.

Bump

Surt at his worst vin

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Bump

Surt at his worst vin

No one's ever given Cap or Logan the win based on some crazy outlier, amiright?

Shiva beat Shadowdragon who knocked around Superman. And Slade beat most of the JLA.

Have you visited my Shiva vs Slade thread yet?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The move is comprised of two attacks simultaneously. A spin kick to the midsection, AND a TP attack. Not hard to imagine, considering it's from an octopus species with multiple appendages.

So the TP attack is 100% the speed of thought, and the kick is 100% the speed of B1M.

I then showed how lightning is not all 'that' fast, and moreover, there is room for doubt that he even ducked it (ducking implies it went over his head. Art clearly does not show this). Whilst said with a smirk. I know this is a year old but I found it interesting.

I'm kind of leaning towards agreeing with sutur about the speed of the tp attack, though for different reasons.

Its clearly different than a normal Xavier like tp attack. Xavier just thinks something and boom instantly at the speed of thought it happens. That's a little different than bats1m thinking it then having to point at u, then fire a tp beam out of his finger and have that beam reach u.

I'm not seeing how Xavier's attack can be at the speed of thought yet bats attack has several more steps to it and it still being %100 the same speed.

I see it more like some sort of evil genius mind phuckery ray gun. Where it might attack the mind but that doesn't necessarily mean the laser moves at the speed of thought. Now u might say that it's technically not a tp attack because u attacked with a ray gun and not your mind, but I don't see how thats much different that attacking with tp thru a beam from your finger.

Also what r we using as the speed for the speed of thought?

The answer to that brings me to my next line of thought which is more of a question than an argument and u and certainly Galan (I mention him because he was involved in the debate on this topic) would know better than I, but does tp in comics always move/attack at what ever we're using as the speed of thought?

For now I'll just use x feet per second as the speed. If Xavier attacks someone from across the globe does it take that x fps aka the speed of thought to travel around the planet, or is it instantanous? Same thing with someone like saturngirl who I believe has a galaxy spanning tp feat. Did that take the same x fps to cross the galaxy?

Like I said earlier I'm not as much debating one side or the other as much as I am just trying to figure it out.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.