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Following the creation of the omniverse and the LT's apparently higher status relative to the rest of the abstracts, is he actually more powerful than the Classic Beyonder was?

Modern LT is only universal (there's one in every universe), whereas PR Beyonder was truly omniversal; capable of destroying billions of universes on a whim.

PR Beyonder stomps.

^ ...wait, really?

I'm referring to the omniversal, 2000s LT. I wasn't aware that there was a recent depowering; if there was, I don't mean to use that one.

PR Beyonder >>>>> Current Beyonders >>>> LT

And I say that as someone who thinks PR Beyonder is overhyped in general.

^ The PR Beyonder was millions of times stronger than the multiverse. Isn't the omniverse infinitely larger?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ The PR Beyonder was millions of times stronger than the multiverse. Isn't the omniverse infinitely larger?

Well, the term "omniverse" wasn't used back then, so the general consensus, I believe, is that multiverse and omniverse meant the same thing.

That being said, the Beyonder on panel did not appear to be nearly as powerful as he was claimed to be in writing. He claimed to be millions of times more powerful than the multiverse, but he was matched pretty much evenly with a single being within the multiverse (PR MM).

He was powerful, for sure, but all the rest was self-hyperbole. He claimed to be omniscient but was proven to not be, he claimed to be omnipotent but wasn't. Don't know why we're supposed to take the "millions of times more powerful" comment at face value when nothing he said deserved to be taken seriously.

But hey, what do I know. Been a long time since I've read the issues.

Originally posted by Cogito

Well, the term "omniverse" wasn't used back then, so the general consensus, I believe, is that multiverse and omniverse meant the same thing.
... more or less ... bout right.
Originally posted by Cogito

That being said, the Beyonder on panel did not appear to be nearly as powerful as he was claimed to be in writing. He claimed to be millions of times more powerful than the multiverse,

but he was matched pretty much evenly with a single being within the multiverse (PR MM).
... way off.
Originally posted by Cogito

He was powerful, for sure, but all the rest was self-hyperbole.

He claimed to be omniscient but was proven to not be,
he claimed to be omnipotent but wasn't.
.. not sure if you're aware friend,

... but Beyonder de-powered himself severely near the start of the series in order to fit in. (still above all others though)

Beyonder didn't understand the concept of "desire" ... and this is because,
Beyonder was the embodied totality of the infinite beyond, he had no beginning, and always was.

ie. ... Beyonder was a supreme being! ...

... but PIS was a necessity to fill in nearly 50 issues with some kind of interesting substance involving an all powerful entity.
Originally posted by Cogito

Don't know why we're supposed to take the "millions of times more powerful" comment at face value when nothing he said deserved to be taken seriously.

But hey, what do I know. Been a long time since I've read the issues.
Indeed good friend. You need to re-visit the entire series plus the many tie-ins.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... more or less ... bout right.


How can the multiverse and the omniverse be the same thing? We know that multiverses are inside megaverses which are inside the omniverse; they're clearly distinct from one another. I'm pretty sure it's been stated that a megaverse has infinite multiverses. You could even argue that the Beyonder's multiverse would exist within the omniverse - if so, then the Living Tribunal would have dominion over it in modern canon. Either way, if the omniverse really is infinitely larger than the multiverse, that beats being millions of times greater.

When was the LT ever omniversal?

Originally posted by Mr Master
... but Beyonder de-powered himself severely near the start of the series in order to fit in. (still above all others though)

I do not recall this (as I said, many many years here).. Scans?

PR Beyonder was Multiversal+ as was LT back then. Later Marvel made an Omniverse out of their Multiverses and the Beyonder remained Multiversal, the Beyonders as a Race were still an Omniversal Force, however LT advanced with the new concept and was above a single Beyonder, even the PR Beyonder who in turn is below the Omniversal Beyonders.

Tribunal isn't universal,even if there is one in each universe,that dosent make his power universal...however PR beyonder stomps

I dont think any character in comics is more powerful than PR Beyonder.

So now LT doesn't have M Bodies anymore (it was still the same LT)... now it's actually just each different LT for every universe?

Correct. According to Starlin, there is an entirely different set of abstract/cosmic beings in each and every universe within Marvel's continuum... And LT is one of them. The worst part is that Starlin essentially flushed every other piece of LT-canon(including Hickman's very recent portrayal of LT during Secret Wars) down the toilet in one fell swoop. Not sure if it will stick in the long run, but the fact that he did this in the first place is faceplam-inducing.

Point: Starlin is a f*cking hack nowadays, and The Infinity Finale is probably the worst piece of garbage I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Originally posted by Galan007
Correct. According to Starlin, there is an entirely different set of abstract/cosmic beings in each and every universe within Marvel's continuum... And LT is one of them. The worst part is that Starlin essentially flushed every other piece of LT-canon(including Hickman's very recent portrayal of LT during Secret Wars) down the toilet in one fell swoop. Not sure if it will stick in the long run, but the fact that he did this in the first place is faceplam-inducing.

Point: Starlin is a f*cking hack nowadays, and The Infinity Finale is probably the worst piece of garbage I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

I'm pretty much at the stage of ignoring what Starlin wrote about this.

I mean today Ewing already re-established that Eternity is ultimately the personification of every universe once you step outside them all.

And the fact is it just didn't seem like Starlin understood (or more likely read) what happened to LT in Hickman's run, where it very definitively stated that it was the multiversal LT and it died/fragmented across the entire multiverse at once. And it didn't seem like he realized that the Beyonders have been wiped out etc.

Infinity Finale was just a bit of a mess- it honestly seemed like someone at Marvel had promised Starlin he could finish his whole saga and then he just badly fit in current Marvel events around it. I mean it still has Thor wielding mjolnir rather than Jane and old Loki etc in it. It just absolutely does not fit in anywhere.

As for this fight, LT has been shown to have limits, even if there aren't many, and Pre Retcon Beyonder was powerful enough to be considered beyond these limits.

So starlin retconned SW?

Originally posted by Galan007
Correct. According to Starlin, there is an entirely different set of abstract/cosmic beings in each and every universe within Marvel's continuum... And LT is one of them. The worst part is that Starlin essentially flushed every other piece of LT-canon(including Hickman's very recent portrayal of LT during Secret Wars) down the toilet in one fell swoop. Not sure if it will stick in the long run, but the fact that he did this in the first place is faceplam-inducing.

Point: Starlin is a f*cking hack nowadays, and The Infinity Finale is probably the worst piece of garbage I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

I don't like LT being downgraded like that. He was special among all those abstracts/cosmic beings. Already him losing to three Beyonders was very odd and bizzare.

I didn't mind when LT was surpassed by THOTU or Protege, because Protege is also among most powerful comic beings ever created, but this now is just idiotic.