Kreia or Vergere?

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The_Tempest
Which is the better character and why? Discuss.

SunRazer
I won't vote yet - they're both very interesting, so I'll wait to see how the discussion plays out.

Selenial
It's difficult, tbh.

I found Vergere's outlooks more interesting, simply because they were much easier to swallow. What Kreia actually manages to achieve, and the background she comes from makes her holistically a more interesting character for me though. If Vergere was actually in better written stories I might like her more mmm

MS Warehouse
Vergere was more of a guide than kreia, who was much more influential. Kreia was such a downer though. I personally enjoyed vergere's unique view of the force and TUF was one of the best sw books I've read.

NewGuy01
Vergere, for me. It probably helps that she stars in better stories than the trainwreck that was KOTOR II; then again, should Traya get points for still managing to shine regardless?

The_Tempest
Kreia being the lone turd-log among the fetid shitswamp that is KOTOR2 doesn't really mean all that much to me.

The_Tempest
Just hinging the conversation on their philosophies, Vergere has a titanic advantage over Kreia. Multiple full-length novels have explored it, most obviously Traitor, which is what you get when you put a philosophy textbook and a regular Star Wars story in a blender. It's a damn good read. This coming from someone who thinks Vergere's worldview is ultimately bullshit. But it's well-written bullshit all the same.

AncientPower
I switch between the two, Vergere has a much more grounded way of challenging the existing views of the Force. On the other hand Kreia has some truly brilliant dialogue, ignoring the Sith Hermetica, she blows Vergere out of the water with her wisdom.

The_Tempest
Wisdom? lol

And Vergere doesn't have brilliant dialogue? I strongly encourage you to reread Traitor.

MS Warehouse
I think kreia plays the invisible hand much better and more potently than vergere.

AncientPower
I have read it, but some Kreia dialogue nuggets, that you need stupidly high Wisdom to converse through, are great.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have read it, but some Kreia dialogue nuggets, that you need stupidly high Wisdom to converse through, are great.

Got links? Or snippets?

Emperordmb
Vergere, she never devolved into some killing the Force shit.

SunRazer
If we forgot about the "killing the Force part", who's better? I want to see if this changes opinions.

The_Tempest
The only thing that bothers me about the Force killing bullshit is that it was ever treated seriously by the characters, writers, and fans. It should instead be treated like any modern-day jihadist. No podunk terrorist will ever be able to slay the Dragondestroy America. Doesn't mean they're not dangerous, though.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Got links? Or snippets?

One example being: https://youtu.be/s5w9LBcYu5g

Darth Abonis
Vergere. Her plan of turning Jacen Solo to the dark side, was amazing process. Kreia was just a pissy old lady

AncientPower
Which she had Lumiya's help in doing.

Kreia trained Revan, the Exile, and Nihilus and manufactured the fall of both Force using orders. Paving the way for a reborn Jedi Order and a rebuilt Galactic Republic, restored and founded by her apprentice, which became the apex of the Old Republic and Jedi Order in terms of strength. This gave them the strength to hold off the Sith Empire.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
One example being: https://youtu.be/s5w9LBcYu5g

That's not bad at all, but I'm not convinced that the Avellone/Kreia combo is any match for Stover/Vergere. There's nothing in that video that is especially groundbreaking.

SunRazer
Temp, what do you think of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

Most people think this is either a terribly long-winded, useless monologue, or an amazing speech that sums up the game.

Either way, you have to admit that Kreia's voice actor, Sara Kestelman, was brilliant.

Anyway, these videos manage to capture most of Kreia's greatest moments in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MXXjX1TeIk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgUFQXbXcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrZzNbtjt7A

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by SunRazer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

terribly long-winded, useless monologue...sums up the game

thumb up

Selenial
Good links, Nova, but another crucial one is the second half of the Council meeting on Dantooine. thumb up

https://youtu.be/3EtByaOxiwE

FreshestSlice
When the story went from convoluted to absolute shit?

Selenial
I guess it is difficult for an handicapped individual to understand the complexities of philosophy smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sel is an femracist confirmed smile

Beniboybling
Tbh I feel like Kreia is at her best not when she's monologuing (though those are great moments to) but when she's manipulating those around her.

Moments like this are pretty great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK8ni6Gl3ws

And this is probably one of my favourite moments in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkD2A5e2zCw

EDIT: Her shut down of Bao-Dur is also pretty awesome, not sure what Vergere has on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkD2A5e2zCw

smile

Zenwolf
I did find Kreia's dialogue at times to be boring, cause it just went on and on.

Beniboybling
no

Zenwolf
Yes Beni. Her long winded dialogue just didn't do anything for me after the first few playthroughs.

Beniboybling
sad

Selenial
Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Her shut down of Bao-Dur is also pretty awesome, not sure what Vergere has on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkD2A5e2zCw

smile

I think you mean : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBlXyaGdjw

But yeh, agreed, I love her interactions with the crew members. I love that when you lose influence with a crew member, she'll manipulate them against you. Her machinations involving Brianna and Mical were beautiful.

Beniboybling
Ah yeah wrong link

"Nothing human to be sure." Awesome line. smile

Aurbere
Tbf, Kreia did talk a lot. But that's more than made up for with Kreia's voice acting and the content of the dialogue itself, as well as some really awesome lines during interactions with the companions.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Selenial
I guess it is difficult for an handicapped individual to understand the complexities of philosophy smile
I like how you don't deny it's convoluted.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah yeah wrong link

"Nothing human to be sure." Awesome line. smile

Eh, Kreia's racism isn't exactly my favorite trait of hers tbh.

Beniboybling
I wasn't recommending her as a role model. wink

Zenwolf
Also Beni! Sel! Aurb! Check yo CV, I mades a new RT/blog!

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how you don't deny it's convoluted.

Convoluted is a perspective, one that reflects your intelligence more than the game's storyline.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wasn't recommending her as a role model. wink

Yeah I know, but its not something I consider awesome personally.

The_Tempest
I'll reserve final judgment til I beat KOTOR, purchase KOTOR2 (vomit), and play through. It'll be the first time I've touched the game in 11 years.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah I know, but its not something I consider awesome personally. She's a fictional character, its OK. smile

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll reserve final judgment til I beat KOTOR, purchase KOTOR2 (vomit), and play through. It'll be the first time I've touched the game in 11 years.

It's not that bad. Get the mods, by the way.

The_Tempest
We'll see. Alas, I haven't dedicated much time this week to KOTOR.

JKBart
It's quite funny how rating of the game itself went down instantly recently, when people started lowering down the rating of Force power of the characters lmao

SunRazer
Here's a better link for Kreia's best moments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQO2RM7fn-w

NewGuy01
Originally posted by JKBart
It's quite funny how rating of the game itself went down instantly recently, when people started lowering down the rating of Force power of the characters lmao

to be fair i hated it since like 2005

Ursumeles
Up
Very interesting therad. Vergere slaughters.

MythLord
Vergere wins by a hair.

Freedon Nadd
I think both are equally amazing. Vergere taught us to be self-aware of other people's agendas. Kreia taught us how to be independant and that sometimes people should be let to face their own demons alone.

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