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H2h only.

Simon eats a halibut lord whole.

Aquaman gets Ted DiBiase'd, just like Rulk.

Pr... I'm sorry that I failed you... if only I had had my seahorse...

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Aquaman gets Ted DiBiase'd, just like Rulk.
I was going to point that out, thanks.

this is pretty close imo. arthur's cl100, simon isn't a high cl100. maybe a slight edge to simon. i think am and namor are pretty close nowadays and simon and namor have always been basic equivalents in my mind, so....not sure how this isn't very close. arthur def has a speed edge in combat and a large skill edge to even out what might be a small strength edge for simon. durability is about even, maybe even, so, yeah. pretty close imo. 60/40 for simon i guess.

Are standard weapons in play or fisticuffs only?

Simon has the strength edge, AM has the speed and skill edge. I say split

H2h implies no weapons, otherwise it'd just be a forum fight.

What has Simon lifted that makes him stronger?

How does he react to a charge?

H2h wise Aquaman was doing really well against Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
What has Simon lifted that makes him stronger?

How does he react to a charge?

H2h wise Aquaman was doing really well against Wonder Woman.

A pyramid and a mountain and Wonder Woman wasn't fighting him.

Originally posted by carver9
A pyramid and a mountain and Wonder Woman wasn't fighting him.

Sounds impressive.

Yes she was there's no excuse since they were both being mind controlled,

He also did pretty well against a Martian Manhunter who couldn't be knocked out.

Is this strictly New52 Aquaman?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Sounds impressive.

Yes she was there's no excuse since they were both being mind controlled,

Aaaahhhh, got the fight confused. I remember that. I wouldn't consider mind control Battles as legit.

Originally posted by carver9
Aaaahhhh, got the fight confused. I remember that. I wouldn't consider mind control Battles as legit.

Really given the context Skill and physicals should still be considered.

The only thing the witch did is make them see each other as enemies. She wasn't manipulating their movement and she didn't weaken either.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pr... I'm sorry that I failed you... if only I had had my seahorse...

Originally posted by carver9
Aaaahhhh, got the fight confused. I remember that. I wouldn't consider mind control Battles as legit.

I'll remember to bring this up so I can point-out you contradicting yourself.

That was a fun fight, mind control notwithstanding.

Originally posted by carver9
A pyramid and a mountain and Wonder Woman wasn't fighting him.

A pyramid? Are you taling about that moodern day bujilding shaped like a real pyramid? Carver, why the dishonesty? There is a huge difference in weight between a real pyramid like the one Blue Marvel lifted, and a building. These two are roughly the same strength or perhaps a slight nod to Arthur. Then you have a huge gap in skill that Arthur has on Simon. Aquaman should literally school Simon in the ways of combat.

I think Aquaman may have the better on panel strength ( lifting) feats.

Even pre flashpoint sub diego feat easily puts Arthur as Simon's equal in strength. He has a distinct speed and skill advantage too. The only thing Simon does have the edge in is durability.

Not seeing how this isnt a wash for Arthur.

Also pre FP Arthur took on WW, warrior Guy Gardner, Fire and a few other JLAers solo.

Pretty sure WMs taken on some big guns solo; just mentioning as i'm not actively looking for scans.

classic Hyperion and WM fought, and their punches rocked a planetoid.

WM is really underrated.

Aquaman is unlikely to ever be compared to a Sentry-level character either as Simon was.

Originally posted by Stoic
A pyramid? Are you taling about that moodern day bujilding shaped like a real pyramid? Carver, why the dishonesty? There is a huge difference in weight between a real pyramid like the one Blue Marvel lifted, and a building. These two are roughly the same strength or perhaps a slight nod to Arthur. Then you have a huge gap in skill that Arthur has on Simon. Aquaman should literally school Simon in the ways of combat.
Pretty sure BM did not lift a pyramid. He partially lifted a skyscraper. I'd give the strength edge to Simon.

And this is what comet was talking about. This is probably way beyond any feat Aquaman has ever shown.

http://i.imgur.com/fACuhtW.jpg

Hyperion punched him 20 miles and then drove him through a small planet they did sqaure off for a moment though.

Originally posted by Stoic
A pyramid? Are you taling about that moodern day bujilding shaped like a real pyramid? Carver, why the dishonesty? There is a huge difference in weight between a real pyramid like the one Blue Marvel lifted, and a building. These two are roughly the same strength or perhaps a slight nod to Arthur. Then you have a huge gap in skill that Arthur has on Simon. Aquaman should literally school Simon in the ways of combat.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948644/11.jpg.html

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Pretty sure BM did not lift a pyramid. He partially lifted a skyscraper. I'd give the strength edge to Simon.

And this is what comet was talking about. This is probably way beyond any feat Aquaman has ever shown.

http://i.imgur.com/fACuhtW.jpg


What??? Celey are you kidding me now? BM lifted far more than a pyramid, he lifted an asteroid as large as a state, which would indicate that he could lift hundreds of pyramids without much of a problem. Am I right?

Originally posted by carver9
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948644/11.jpg.html

Carver that was a building made to look like a pyramid. That isn't really the same thing as lifting an ancient pyramid. You can't even begin to compare the two in terms of weight. One is mostly solid while the other... well you get what I'm saying. Also where is the scan of Simon lifting it? Did I miss something?

Originally posted by Stoic
What??? Celey are you kidding me now? BM lifted far more than a pyramid, he lifted an asteroid as large as a state, which would indicate that he could lift hundreds of pyramids without much of a problem. Am I right?
I created his respect thread. And I wasn't kidding. He didn't lift a pyramid.

Simon takes this. He was getting the better of Thor in H2H, and actually does have feats of skill to his name, so it's not as though Aquaman has a huge advantage there. He has the durability edge as well.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Simon takes this. He was getting the better of Thor in H2H, and actually does have feats of skill to his name, so it's not as though Aquaman has a huge advantage there. He has the durability edge as well.
Yeah, i think thats been established. For non stubborn people at any rate.

hyperion was going to (and did) kill simon. that was barely a contest. all simon did was survive for a brief time so i certainly wouldn't chalk that up as any kind of feat.... he did beat abomination after a huge effort but that was about his best individual win. he once tried lifting weights set at thor level and couldn't do it so he's not thor. and he doesn't have a single feat that matches the sub diego feat and he's gotten stronger since then. he fought pretty evenly with hercules in dc who is typically seen as a peer with marvel herc. and marvel herc almost murdered poor simon when he was all in a rage.

it's no being stubborn at all, it's looking at both and seeing that this is pretty damn close in almost all areas.

I do see it as close, with WM having the edge. In a h2h fight.
Granted, i dont think of DC Herc as a peer to MU Herc, and believe WM has greater durability, and dont believe lifting feats are all that count in a fight.

I mean, Punisher can likely bench press more than Lady Shiva, but i wouldnt say he wins a h2h fight against her.

Close

But I'd say Aquaman

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pr... I'm sorry that I failed you... if only I had had my seahorse...

Aquaman is going to mind rape you into believing you're his pet seahorse. But he's not doing that so he can use you as his own seahorse. No see he is doing it so then, right before your eyes, he can purposely choose another seahorse that he finds superior to you..all in order to break your heart.

Afterwards the mind whammy will wear off, but you'll be left with this feeling in the pit of your stomach that you weren't good enough for Aquaman. You just got aqua-owned.

Atlantean cuckold... haermm

Originally posted by leonidas
hyperion was going to (and did) kill simon. that was barely a contest. all simon did was survive for a brief time so i certainly wouldn't chalk that up as any kind of feat.... he did beat abomination after a huge effort but that was about his best individual win. he once tried lifting weights set at thor level and couldn't do it so he's not thor. and he doesn't have a single feat that matches the sub diego feat and he's gotten stronger since then. he fought pretty evenly with hercules in dc who is typically seen as a peer with marvel herc. and marvel herc almost murdered poor simon when he was all in a rage.

it's no being stubborn at all, it's looking at both and seeing that this is pretty damn close in almost all areas.
The feat wasn't in losing to Hyperion. The feat was making the whole mini planet tremble when they came to blows.

And it was quite a durability feat for Simon, too.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And it was quite a durability feat for Simon, too.
He did get owned by evil Bype. But yeah. It was a pretty good feat since he survived being plowed through the mini planet. Gladiator has done something similar to him and he's survived that. He did get pounded to hell though.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
It was a pretty good feat since he survived being plowed through the mini planet.



Don't see Aquaman surviving something like that...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/802619-hyperion_vs._wonder_man001.jpg

+

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y2YMk1nZDP4/U9iGcqklhWI/AAAAAAAAMs4/rauTo9hTnqI/s1600/wondy-hyperion_defeat_ann16-ave.jpg

Originally posted by riv6672
I do see it as close, with WM having the edge. In a h2h fight.
Granted, i dont think of DC Herc as a peer to MU Herc, and believe WM has greater durability, and dont believe lifting feats are all that count in a fight.

I mean, Punisher can likely bench press more than Lady Shiva, but i wouldnt say he wins a h2h fight against her.

Shiva is more skilled then Punisher by alot and the strength difference between them isn't thousands apart.

Are you suggesting Simon is more skilled? Any feats to back that up?

Strength so far looks like Arthur
Durability so far looks like Simon

I'm sure either can hurt each other with physical strikes considering who theyve traded blows with, but so far it seems undisputed that Aquaman is faster and more skilled,

According to thread it sounds like Hyperion killed Wonder Man. Wheras I'd like to bring up Aquaman surviving beatings from Titus, Amazo, and Hercules. Which The Shazam Darkseid War oneshot confirms that Shazam has the strength of Hercules.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
classic Hyperion and WM fought, and their punches rocked a planetoid.

WM is really underrated.

Aquaman is unlikely to ever be compared to a Sentry-level character either as Simon was.


DC52 Aquaman if we're going by statements has bee suggested as one of the strongest characters on DC Earth.

Pre-Flashpoint has feats like overpowering an All-Knowing a race shown capable of beating up Powergirl.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Are you suggesting Simon is more skilled? Any feats to back that up?

Well, he was trained by Cap. But so were great many Avengers.

Don't recall any particularly impressive skill showings from him, other than the hold he used on Rulk, but that was when Rulk was weaker and Simon got stronger.

Yeah I'll probably assume even with a lack of feats Arthur sounds more skilled given he was able to break out of holds Diana put him in as well as put her in a couple holds which seemed pretty even.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Shiva is more skilled then Punisher...
That was my point.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
the strength difference between them isn't thousands apart.
It isnt thousands (of whatever you meant) apart between WM and AQ either.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Are you suggesting Simon is more skilled? Any feats to back that up?

IMO its close. WM calmly choking out Rulk, a character i DO see as stronger than AQ is an impressive enough feat for me.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Strength so far looks like Arthur
Durability so far looks like Simon
Agree.
Its close. I'd probably lean towards WM most days.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I'm sure either can hurt each other with physical strikes
I'm sure of that too.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
it seems undisputed that Aquaman is...more skilled,
Obviously not.

Originally posted by riv6672
That was my point.


It isnt thousands (of whatever you meant) apart between WM and AQ either.


IMO its close. WM calmly choking out Rulk, a character i DO see as stronger than AQ is an impressive enough feat for me.


Agree.
Its close. I'd probably lean towards WM most days.


I'm sure of that too.


Obviously not.

There's nothing showing Simon as more skilled then Arthur in this thread as of yet.

Originally posted by carver9
A pyramid and a mountain and Wonder Woman wasn't fighting him.

Somehow you were wrong TWICE, assuming you're referencing what I think you are.

You weren't talking about JL 16, I hope.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
There's nothing showing Simon as more skilled then Arthur in this thread as of yet.
Do you want me to post the scan? I doubt it'll change your mind.

I've said before these threads arent about changing minds just re-stating opinions. This is a great example. I mean, i'm enjoying the conversation(s), dont misunderstand, no hard feelings on my part over disagreeing on which character wins, or attempt to give anyone any.

Originally posted by riv6672
Do you want me to post the scan? I doubt it'll change your mind.

I've said before these threads arent about changing minds just re-stating opinions. This is a great example. I mean, i'm enjoying the conversation(s), dont misunderstand, no hard feelings on my part over disagreeing on which character wins, or attempt to give anyone any.

If you have a scan that'll prove he's more skilled and it does then I'll back down. When I enter these threads and when it comes to characters I'm not to knowledgeable about I don't already have a winner in mind, I simply ask what a characters capable of and then base my opinions on what's shown.

I almost thought Simon was stronger then current Aquaman with the Pyramid statement but then that was disproven now I'd rather see evidence for any claims made.

Okay, but it wont change your mind...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141208-3804294098-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141209-5528901436-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141210-6865397861-tumbl.jpg

Originally posted by riv6672
Okay, but it wont change your mind...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141208-3804294098-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141209-5528901436-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141210-6865397861-tumbl.jpg

Its a nice choke hold find it weird that Ross didnt utter a word though. ARegardless Aquaman has feats again of breaking out of a hold from Wonder Woman. Quite reptile of me I know, when you suggested Simon had superior skill I was assuming you had scans of him doing well against established fighters. Not suggesting besting an opponent Skill vs Strength isn't

Aquaman vs Wonder Woman

http://imgur.com/a/88fW0

It's impressive that Wonder Man was able to restrain Rulk though but in terms of restraining characters Aquaman was able to restrain Martian Manhunter and Hercules for a panel only, but both having to resort to the situation with J'onn using his shapeshifing and Hercules using the location to get Aquaman off him so it's not like either outmuscled him either.

J'onn couldn't be knocked out though considering he had several spirits in his body so it was them in his conscious.

Strength: Temporarily restrains Martian Manhunter

http://imgur.com/H2Mnv8t

Second panel of the Arthur vs Diana fight he breaks out of her hold and counters with his own.

Making belive he's capable of getting out of holds even from stronger opponents

Other established fighters he's faced would be Cheshire with Aquaman holding back

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace

Strength so far looks like Arthur

I think Simon edges him featwise. Him providing 1/2 of the power to indirectly make a small planet tremble is far above anything Arthur has done.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I think Simon edges him featwise.

I'd probably have to see it, lifting a City Street (Block) or Sealing up the Trench doesn't seem matched at the moment. Based off only building sized feats.


Strength: Lifts a City street

http://imgur.com/o9z9gjn


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875960-6357227766-48759.jpg



I don't thinking striking power and physical strength are the same thing and regardless just like Simon seems to have traded blows with top tier characters but so has Aquaman, and when it comes to hurting characters with his strikes.


Striking: "You hurt me" - Amazo.

http://imgur.com/a/EiKaG


Striking: Punches Titus

http://imgur.com/0HHvqGW



In regards to statements
Strength: "Like the strongest people on Earth"

http://imgur.com/PmaR71A


Strength: "In our League?"

http://imgur.com/wtATi9D

None of those can match it. Not even close to be honest. Plus this should be N52 as per forum rules.

Anyways, not saying Simon is far beyond Arthur in strength. He just has a better list of feats.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
None of those can match it. Not even close to be honest. Plus this should be N52 as per forum rules.

Anyways, not saying Simon is far beyond Arthur in strength. He just has a better list of feats.

Which yet to be shown the Trench thing is above building level as well.

I used the Pre-Flashpoint feats because the Sub-Diego instance keeps being brought up.

Regardless
The Aquaman vs Wonder Woman fight shows Arthur of now in the thread has better Skill

and

The Trench instance shows better strength.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Which yet to be shown the Trench thing is above building level as well.

I used the Pre-Flashpoint feats because the Sub-Diego instance keeps being brought up.

Regardless
The Aquaman vs Wonder Woman fight shows Arthur of now in the thread has better Skill

and

The Trench instance shows better strength.
Trench what?

Not sure what you're trying to say here..

Originally posted by riv6672
Okay, but it wont change your mind...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141208-3804294098-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141209-5528901436-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141210-6865397861-tumbl.jpg

Havent seen that in a while. Man he shut Rulk down 100 percent with ease.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
None of those can match it. Not even close to be honest. Plus this should be N52 as per forum rules.

Anyways, not saying Simon is far beyond Arthur in strength. He just has a better list of feats.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...27766-48759.jpg

Id advise you to look up what a Trench is.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...27766-48759.jpg

Id advise you to look up what a Trench is.
Link does not work.


Btw, why don't you just tell is about Trench...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/802619-hyperion_vs._wonder_man001.jpg

+

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y2YMk1nZDP4/U9iGcqklhWI/AAAAAAAAMs4/rauTo9hTnqI/s1600/wondy-hyperion_defeat_ann16-ave.jpg Wonder Man was considered killed in the fight.

Arthur wins with standard gear. Splits without it.

Originally posted by Zack M
Arthur wins with standard gear. Splits without it.

I don't believe he's allowed to use any weaponry in a h2h.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Link does not work.


Btw, why don't you just tell is about Trench...

My bad.

A Oceanic Trench is the surface of the deepest part of the ocean. Theyre basically two plates of Earth together which is massive.

Aquaman didn't move a trench though he moved a section of it sealing it up. Panel 5 not even showing all of the surface of earth he was moving yet showing it's massively bigger then him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875960-6357227766-48759.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875961-9129551173-48759.jpg

Point out the fact that the earth he's moving is layered shown in the first panel

Originally posted by h1a8
Simon has the strength edge, AM has the speed and skill edge. I say split


Why are you guys ignoring the hard durability edge you always tout for Superman? Wonderman breaks him in this scenario.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
classic Hyperion and WM fought, and their punches rocked a planetoid.

WM is really underrated.

Aquaman is unlikely to ever be compared to a Sentry-level character either as Simon was.


He's being purposely discounted IMO. Most of his failures have come against true top tiers like Thor.

Originally posted by riv6672
Okay, but it wont change your mind...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141208-3804294098-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141209-5528901436-tumbl.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123129/3141210-6865397861-tumbl.jpg




By any measure, that showing is pretty effing incredible. Extra points for the Cobra Clutch, used it plenty times myself.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
My bad.

A Oceanic Trench is the surface of the deepest part of the ocean. Theyre basically two plates of Earth together which is massive.

Aquaman didn't move a trench though he moved a section of it sealing it up. Panel 5 not even showing all of the surface of earth he was moving yet showing it's massively bigger then him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875960-6357227766-48759.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875961-9129551173-48759.jpg

forgot about that showing.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
My bad.

A Oceanic Trench is the surface of the deepest part of the ocean. Theyre basically two plates of Earth together which is massive.

Aquaman didn't move a trench though he moved a section of it sealing it up. Panel 5 not even showing all of the surface of earth he was moving yet showing it's massively bigger then him.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875960-6357227766-48759.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4875961-9129551173-48759.jpg
I'm already aware of this feat. I figured you were going to show something else.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'm already aware of this feat. I figured you were going to show something else.


Wheres the feat that Simon moves something greater?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Wheres the feat that Simon moves something greater?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111115588/3278383-wonder+man+9.jpg

Even without this showing I think Wonder man is stronger. Aquaman isn't that far behind though.

uh? he didn't life anything there at all.... all he did was help balance it. the pillar was holding the bulk of the weight... wtf? that not even close to the sub diego feat OR the trench feat. the trench feat was likely the greatest of all the feats posted so far.

Originally posted by leonidas
hyperion was going to (and did) kill simon. that was barely a contest. all simon did was survive for a brief time so i certainly wouldn't chalk that up as any kind of feat.... he did beat abomination after a huge effort but that was about his best individual win.
Not to nit pick but Abomination was destroying him until Simon used high powered electric wires to severely weaken/stun him. Without those wires, Simon would have been done for.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/05/24/the-wrong-side-hawkeye-and-wonder-man-vs-the-abomination/2/

Originally posted by leonidas
uh? he didn't life anything there at all.... all he did was help balance it. the pillar was holding the bulk of the weight... wtf? that not even close to the sub diego feat OR the trench feat. the trench feat was likely the greatest of all the feats posted so far.

"Let Wonderman take the full weight". As bright as day.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Its a nice choke hold
Told you it wouldnt change your mind.

Like i said, these threads arent about mind changing, just repeating our opinions.

Originally posted by carver9
"Let Wonderman take the full weight". As bright as day.
Yes, of the PIECE he was BALANCING. What you didn't see is the previous page where Sue was helping him BALANCE the piece of the island with a force triangle. Reed told her to stop because it was futile and buffer the pillar instead.

The Pillar was supporting the weight of the island.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes, of the PIECE he was BALANCING. What you didn't see is the previous page where Sue was helping him BALANCE the piece of the island with a force triangle. Reed told her to stop because it was futile and buffer the pillar instead.

The Pillar was supporting the weight of the island.

holy sh!t...i mean seriously? next you'll have to draw him a picture. wait, it HAS a picture. carver, you make things too easy sometimes. honestly, at times you make me WANT to root for the bullies....

and you're right about the abomination fight--i'd forgotten about the electricity. he has very few good one on one victories.

Originally posted by leonidas
holy sh!t...i mean seriously? next you'll have to draw him a picture. wait, it HAS a picture. carver, you make things too easy sometimes. honestly, at times you make me WANT to root for the bullies....

and you're right about the abomination fight--i'd forgotten about the electricity. he has very few good one on one victories.


He doesn't, but he's always in the fight with the heavy weights due to strength and durability. Aquaman's record is no better.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
He doesn't, but he's always in the fight with the heavy weights due to strength and durability. Aquaman's record is no better.
Aquaman has more than strength and durability to rely on in fights, though. Thats a difference maker here.
He's not in water, where he can use the environment and sea creatures. He doesnt have his trident, which gives him a great deal of ranged/offensive attack capability.
This is a fist fight, and WM has the edge.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Wheres the feat that Simon moves something greater?
But that trench feat is well below shaking an entire planet(mini) just from shockwaves.
Why would he need to have a showing moving something greater?

Anyways... Here Grulk throws a big @$$ Las Vegas pyramid on the Avengers. Wonder Man(and Iron Man) catches it and chucks it up in the air.
http://oi68.tinypic.com/3c6zk.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/qpqmc2.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2pq9yrm.jpg


And the Avengers Island feat is beyond the trench feat and is being underestimated. At first we see that Sue is supporting a very large portion of the island's weight, but Wonder Man swoops in and takes the weight off of her briefly. The island is by no means considered large as island go, but it was pretty sizeable. It was large enough to house it's own mountain. There are other depictions of it in many other issues that really show it's size.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/4j2o3l.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/oigboz.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/2psrioh.jpg

And going back to the trench feat it is impressive and is easily a class 100 type feat, but loses here because he didn't support any weight. His strength overcame the durability of the overhanging formation at the trench. Arthur divebombed to create the initial damage then pushed hard enough to break off a smaller portion of the overhanging edifice as shown in the first scan and the cracks that started to form in the second scan.
http://oi66.tinypic.com/1zr2ya0.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ryjbsj.jpg

http://oi67.tinypic.com/24uxdky.jpg

@celey's scans

I see Clint lifting it with one hand again Reminds me of that car feat in New Avengers haermm

Liked that Hulk Smash Avengers mini, very fun.

um, how is that balancing act a strength feat at all, really....? seems to me if anything it's more a reflection of the strength of his little jet blasters in that scene. sort of.

WM is notch below Mortal Hercules but still Class 100+, Aquaman is more of Namor class 100 still one bad mofo. WM strength does increase due to rage like Hulk if Im not mistaken, since his resurrection into ionic energy form.

Originally posted by leonidas
uh? he didn't life anything there at all.... all he did was help balance it. the pillar was holding the bulk of the weight... wtf? that not even close to the sub diego feat OR the trench feat. the trench feat was likely the greatest of all the feats posted so far.


Lulz. glad you said it first.

Originally posted by leonidas
um, how is that balancing act a strength feat at all, really....? seems to me if anything it's more a reflection of the strength of his little jet blasters in that scene. sort of.
The amount of energy expends through his boosters is dependent on how hard he pushes himself. It's like Superman(and other flying bricks) flying and lifting things. In reality I don't consider lifting things while flying pure strength feats(though they are strength feats to some extent imo), but that's a whole can of worms I wouldn't want to open now...

The island was not level so it's not as simple as just balancing. First panel on first scan is quite clear.

This right here is probably one of Arthur's more impressive (if not most) showings.
Throwing a submarine from deep underwater and clearing the surface of the water was pretty beastly.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124701/3561289-aquaman+%2321+-+page+6.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124701/3348987-submarine1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111135933/3445561-7078476900-tumbl.png

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
The amount of energy expends through his boosters is dependent on how hard he pushes himself. It's like Superman(and other flying bricks) flying and lifting things. In reality I don't consider lifting things while flying pure strength feats(though they are strength feats to some extent imo), but that's a whole can of worms I wouldn't want to open now...

The island was not level so it's not as simple as just balancing. First panel on first scan is quite clear.


No matter how anyone tries to spin it, these two characters are in the same weight class. Arthur is just a better fighter by a country mile. His best feat to date is when he went up against Rulk, but that really doesn't impress me, because Rulk was on his way out with the door hitting him in the ass while he on his way. Strength means nothing when you're fighting a guy as strong as you are but is a superior combatant. Arthur should win this with medium difficulty.

Originally posted by Stoic
No matter how anyone tries to spin it, these two characters are in the same weight class.
Who is saying otherwise?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
But that trench feat is well below shaking an entire planet(mini) just from shockwaves.
Why would he need to have a showing moving something greater?

Anyways... Here Grulk throws a big @$$ Las Vegas pyramid on the Avengers. Wonder Man(and Iron Man) catches it and chucks it up in the air.
http://oi68.tinypic.com/3c6zk.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/qpqmc2.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2pq9yrm.jpg


And the Avengers Island feat is beyond the trench feat and is being underestimated. At first we see that Sue is supporting a very large portion of the island's weight, but Wonder Man swoops in and takes the weight off of her briefly. The island is by no means considered large as island go, but it was pretty sizeable. It was large enough to house it's own mountain. There are other depictions of it in many other issues that really show it's size.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/4j2o3l.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/oigboz.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/2psrioh.jpg

And going back to the trench feat it is impressive and is easily a class 100 type feat, but loses here because he didn't support any weight. His strength overcame the durability of the overhanging formation at the trench. Arthur divebombed to create the initial damage then pushed hard enough to break off a smaller portion of the overhanging edifice as shown in the first scan and the cracks that started to form in the second scan.
http://oi66.tinypic.com/1zr2ya0.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ryjbsj.jpg

http://oi67.tinypic.com/24uxdky.jpg

Your joking right?

1. Oceanic Trenches are in the very bottom of the ocean there the oceans floor. So keep in mind the pressure,

2. Dive bombed what? What initial pressure. If that was true it would make more sense for the area he's dive bombing at for him to go straight through or to Crack through it, in the Wonder Man scan the area he's pressing on is crumbled that's what happens when your pressing on something with extensive strength.

3. If the dive bomb thing was the case even further why would Aquaman be struggling through 5 panels..

4. Sue helps Simon with the Weight that he's not even fully lifting he's balancing a large land mass sure but he's not pressing down on it to move it through a layer of earth or isnt lifting above himself he's just balancing it on a pillar with the help of Sue. Mera just sits their and watches not even helping with her Hydrokinesis. Wheras Sue put more support on the pillar when she did drop the help she was giving.


Also WonderMan's rocket belt having the strength to?

Originally posted by Stoic
No matter how anyone tries to spin it, these two characters are in the same weight class.
Yup.

The whole AQ is a better fighter/WMs feat against Rulk isnt impressive i obviously disagree with of course.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Your joking right?

1. Oceanic Trenches are in the very bottom of the ocean there the oceans floor. So keep in mind the pressure,

2. Dive bombed what? What initial pressure. If that was true it would make more sense for the area he's dive bombing at for him to go straight through or to Crack through it, in the Wonder Man scan the area he's pressing on is crumbled that's what happens when your pressing on something with extensive strength.

3. If the dive bomb thing was the case even further why would Aquaman be struggling through 5 panels..

4. Sue helps Simon with the Weight that he's not even fully lifting he's balancing a large land mass sure but he's not pressing down on it to move it through a layer of earth or isnt lifting above himself he's just balancing it on a pillar with the help of Sue. Mera just sits their and watches not even helping with her Hydrokinesis. Wheras Sue put more support on the pillar when she did drop the help she was giving.
Ok good. Pressure.

Not sure why you aren't seeing it. He attacked the overhanging formation with a dive bomb. Notice the mark he left at where he crashed down. It's very reminiscent of many other comics where a character is shown landing forcefully. Then he keeps at it and cracks start to form on the periphery of the area he landed on.

To you it would make more sense. Unfortunately he wasn't able to destroy it here at one shot.

Notice the island is basically about to slide off the pillar with its very unbalanced left side as the lead.
He supported the weight of that very unbalanced side of the island. At one point Sue even removes her force field. How that is not impressive is confusing to me considering he is basically a mote of dust to a building when we compare him to the island's size.

I don't understand. Even if you're balancing something, the weight still fall back on you. Try balancing an elephant who's weight is falling your way on an indestructible stick and tell me how that goes.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yup.

The whole AQ is a better fighter/WMs feat against Rulk isnt impressive i obviously disagree with of course.

How is Simon as good a fighter? Where has he ever shown it? His performance against Rulk is his best to date, but then again like I stated Rulk was turned into a scrub, and was nothing like he was during the Loeb era. This is a hard fact. Simon would have never beaten Loeb era Rulk.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yup.

The whole AQ is a better fighter/WMs feat against Rulk isnt impressive i obviously disagree with of course.

I'd say Aquaman is a better fighter.

Originally posted by carver9
I don't understand. Even if you're balancing something, the weight still fall back on you. Try balancing an elephant on an indestructible stick and tell me how that goes.


Provided one side is considerably off center as was the case in Avengers Island.

Originally posted by Zack M
I'd say Aquaman is a better fighter.
Awesome!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ok good. Pressure.

Not sure why you aren't seeing it. He attacked the overhanging formation with a dive bomb. Notice the mark he left at where he crashed down. It's very reminiscent of many other comics where a character is shown landing forcefully. Then he keeps at it and cracks start to form on the periphery of the area he landed on.

To you it would make more sense. Unfortunately he wasn't able to destroy it here at one shot.

Notice the island is basically about to slide off the pillar with its very unbalanced left side as the lead.
He supported the weight of that very unbalanced side of the island. At one point Sue even removes her force field. How that is not impressive is confusing to me considering he is basically a mote of dust to a building when we compare him to the island's size.

Its questionable is why Im not to impressed you have so many statements in the panels provided that question the idea of Simon actually being cable of lifting the island which he doesn't Btw.

Its more difficult to bench or press weights then it is to pick up something on a one side axis (that is already airborne on the other side with something beneath it for support)

1. Simon doesn't lift an island he simply keeps it leveled at most, let's not pretend the pillar isn't providing any support.

2. Simon was straining when Sue was helping him and she showed the ability to atleast temporarily hold it so I don't even know if he's even holding the extent of it.

3. He shows signs of struggling even when Sue was helping and then what she does seems to support the pillar so it could stay in place. Why anyone would leave an island on a landmass to me is questionable though

4, His jet booster strength is being mentioned so I'm not sure how much support that's applying and to be honest I don't even know why that would be mentioned.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Its questionable is why Im not to impressed you have so many statements in the panels provided that question the idea of Simon actually being cable of lifting the island which he doesn't Btw.

Its more difficult to bench or press weights then it is to pick up something on a one side axis.

1. Simon doesn't lift an island he simply keeps it leveled at most, let's not pretend the pillar isn't providing any support.

2. Simon was straining when Sue was helping him and she showed the ability to atleast temporarily hold it so I don't even know if he's even holding the extent of it.

3. He show's signs of struggling even when Sue was helping and then what she does it reaffirm the pillar.

4, His jet booster strength is being mentioned so I'm not sure how much support that's applying and to be one st I don't even know why that would be mentioned.
1. Did I say he lifted an island? Did I say the pillar wasn't providing any support? You're a little confused methinks.

2. At one point as per the scan, he supported the highly unbalanced side by himself.

3. Did anyone say otherwise?

4. K.. Just in case you weren't aware, his booster is not a separate entity. It is directly connected to him. Pretend the booster did not exist and his flight is portrayed like a standard flying brick a la Superman. For them to function, it utilizes his very own ionic energies. That's essentially how they work.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
1. Did I say he lifted an island? Did I say the pillar wasn't providing any support? You're a little confused methinks.

2. At one point as per the scan, he supported the highly unbalanced side by himself.

3. Did anyone say otherwise?

4. K.. Just in case you weren't aware, his booster is not a separate entity. It is directly connected to him. Pretend the booster did not exist and his flight is portrayed like a standard flying brick a la Superman. For them to function, it utilizes his very own ionic energies. That's essentially how they work.


Its questionable how much pressure he's actually holding, how much tons of force based on context in the scan.

Do you have a scan suggesting that the Jets use his very own power, I could probably believe that give the amount of additional blast energy coming out of the boost but any scans? Also how does he use this ionic power to increase his strength when without the boots?

How much is balancing an island lifting wise when it comes to estimating?

yeah i'm still not loving the island thing. not saying it's not a good feat--it's obviously solid, but it' impossible to know what percent of the island is still being supported by the pillar even for the "moment" the shield is dropped. look at the size of the pillar relative to the platform--it's pretty damn large so it must be supporting a great deal of the mass despite the slippage that he halted very briefly.

meh, it's a good feat but too many other things going on for me to call it more than that.

i think initially people were thinking simon was much stronger than AM. clearly that is no longer the case. i think it would be a close fight still with skill to AM and durability to simon. still close to a split imo with maybe a revised edge to AM 6/10.

Even in the precrisis days Aquaman was strong enough to knock J'onn on his ass. His strength wasn't shown nearly as consistently as it could have been, especially during the David/Abnett and Lanning days, sure, but we're finally seeing, imo, a proper concentration of feats that put him in his rightful place (at around Wonder Woman level).

That definitely puts him in Simon's league, imo.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Its questionable how much pressure he's actually holding, how much tons of force based on context in the scan.

Do you have a scan suggesting that the Jets use his very own power, I could probably believe that give the amount of additional blast energy coming out of the boost but any scans? Also how does he use this ionic power to increase his strength when without the boots?

How much is balancing an island lifting wise when it comes to estimating?
It was severely imbalanced. It's like an ant having the power to prevent a severely imbalanced side of a seesaw from touching the ground.

I don't so just take my word for it. The only way I'd be wrong is if I misremembered it. I wouldn't lie to you. I'm not Abhi after all.

Later on he developed the ability to fly without the need for boosters.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i'm still not loving the island thing. not saying it's not a good feat--it's obviously solid, but it' impossible to know what percent of the island is still being supported by the pillar even for the "moment" the shield is dropped. look at the size of the pillar relative to the platform--it's pretty damn large so it must be supporting a great deal of the mass despite the slippage that he halted very briefly.

meh, it's a good feat but too many other things going on for me to call it more than that.

i think initially people were thinking simon was much stronger than AM. clearly that is no longer the case. i think it would be a close fight still with skill to AM and durability to simon. still close to a split imo with maybe a revised edge to AM 6/10.
No one actually mentioned that Simon was much stronger than AM. A Few posed that AM had a strength advantage to which this debate on strength really began.
Feat for feat to me Simon has the strength and durability edge. This fight is close because I'd give Arthur the skill advantage and the fact that he has been increasingly portrayed as easily being able to hang with the high tier strong men of DC. Simon's showings overall has been sparse the last few years when compared to AQ.

Wonder Man has fought
Hulk, Thor, Hyperion, Cage, Namor, Captain Britain, Gladiator, Hercules, Rulk and many more.

I think he's got a bit of showings to take an average for skill. Strength feats he's got a bunch aswell, but not many big time wow factor strength feats ( not saying he can't do them).

Of the two who do you guys think hits harder? Because in a h2h that can come in to play.

I'll give WM the edge in hitting power, mostly due to flight speed though.

In a nutshell.
And its been a great read.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
But that trench feat is well below shaking an entire planet(mini) just from shockwaves.
Why would he need to have a showing moving something greater?

Anyways... Here Grulk throws a big @$$ Las Vegas pyramid on the Avengers. Wonder Man(and Iron Man) catches it and chucks it up in the air.
http://oi68.tinypic.com/3c6zk.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/qpqmc2.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2pq9yrm.jpg


I assume, with the jetbelt, that takes place earlier despite the scans look more contemporary?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
4. K.. Just in case you weren't aware, his booster is not a separate entity. It is directly connected to him. Pretend the booster did not exist and his flight is portrayed like a standard flying brick a la Superman. For them to function, it utilizes his very own ionic energies. That's essentially how they work.

This a retcon, or something I forgot/missed? Not arguing, just don't recall that from that era and this piqued my curiosity.

Probably a retcon.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/117763/3239157-wondermansjetbelt.jpg

Originally posted by Delta1938
I assume, with the jetbelt, that takes place earlier despite the scans look more contemporary?

"Hulk Smash Avengers" mini told 4 tales:

- Original "Avengers" Hulk era
- Classic Savage Hulk era
- Fixit era
- Red Hulk era

In the actual modern era, Simon does not need those boosters to fly (although he sometimes forgets he has the ability, similar as Warpath).

Ha, i forgot Warpath can fly.

What's even funnier... he suddenly remembered he had that ability... at the end of Kyle's and Yost's X-Force book.

Better late than never, right? haermm

His brother...
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37573/1460322-thunderbird06.jpg
...would agree with you.

He was so suicidal there, having a flight ability probably wouldn't have mattered for him at all. He did turn down Banshee's offer to save him, after all.

How has Nefaria survived that? He had no powers back then.

I dont recall. I'll have to look it up.

Did you hear it was almost Wolverine on the plane, as both he and TBird were so similar? The soon to be on the book John Byrne lobbied to save his fellow Canadian though.

Originally posted by riv6672
Probably a retcon.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/117763/3239157-wondermansjetbelt.jpg

Yeah, unless I missed/forgot something(certainly could be the case), it's looking more like a retcon. Not that I think it's relevant to the topic, just something I wanna know.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
"Hulk Smash Avengers" mini told 4 tales:

- Original "Avengers" Hulk era
- Classic Savage Hulk era
- Fixit era
- Red Hulk era

In the actual modern era, Simon does not need those boosters to fly (although he sometimes forgets he has the ability, similar as Warpath).

Yep, I knew, I think at least since the mid-90's, he could fly on his own. So I wondered if that was a flashback or something had happened and he lost it. Fixit could have just happened for whatever reason, but now it's occurred to me that's the line-up, costumes and all, of the early West Coast Avengers(before the regular series became AVENGERS WEST COAST). Thanks for confirming what I thought.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
How has Nefaria survived that? He had no powers back then.

According to this...

http://www.writeups.org/thunderbird-proudstar-xmen-marvel-comics/

Originally posted by riv6672
I dont recall. I'll have to look it up.

It wasn't revealed in UXM how he survived, so I guess it was some other series... Avengers, perhaps?

Originally posted by riv6672
Did you hear it was almost Wolverine on the plane, as both he and TBird were so similar? The soon to be on the book John Byrne lobbied to save his fellow Canadian though.

Yes, I did. Similar tempers, powersets even. One had to go. Glad it wasn't Wolverine

Originally posted by riv6672
According to this...

http://www.writeups.org/thunderbird-proudstar-xmen-marvel-comics/

Ah. Thanks.

Hoped for something more original, but oh well.

Oh, Byrne would have brought him back in short order. He was/is nothing if not stubborn.

Or we'd have found out that Logan had a brother with almost identical powers, origin and appearance

Nah, that wasnt Byrne. Byrne would have done WAY better!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
But that trench feat is well below shaking an entire planet(mini) just from shockwaves.
Why would he need to have a showing moving something greater?

Anyways... Here Grulk throws a big @$$ Las Vegas pyramid on the Avengers. Wonder Man(and Iron Man) catches it and chucks it up in the air.


http://oi68.tinypic.com/qpqmc2.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2pq9yrm.jpg



Am I going crazy or does it look like Iron Man is helping him hold up the Pyramid?

Yes. And Celey did mention that, so everything's fine.

Mockingbird, too haermm But the best part is Clint lifting it with 1 hand... just like he lifted that car in New Avengers, remember?

Clint is awesome, though.

There's a reason why we call him Lord Barton here.

I love how he references the original Secret Wars.

I loved how he called the JLS Squadron Supreme wanna be's in JLA/Avengers.