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So let me detail the following passages for anybody who's having difficulties interpreting it. Tenebrous is talking about a calculation he came up with that showed the emergence of a "shadow" ruling over a group called the "One Sith." His plan is to get Plagueis to create Anakin, take control of Anakin as a baby and become the "shadow" tricking the Force in a sense. This ultimately fails as he sees ( or thinks he sees ) that the "shadow" in his calculation is Sidious. But was Sidious really the "shadow" of Tenebrous's calculation or was it Krayt? Both Krayt and Sidious have been described as shadows and both ultimately pursued goals of becoming the ultimate Force user of their era sharing power with no one ( Sidious sometimes contradicts this in various novels ). So was Tenebrous's calculation referencing Krayt or Sidious? Personally I'm unsure but given they were outright called the "One Sith" by Luceno I think his goal was to reference Krayt though leave the passage open to interpretation. If it was referencing Krayt from a lore perspective I'll definitely have to reevaluate my opinion of him as I have him around Vader level right now.
_________________________________________________

While still merely an apprentice, his analysis had shown him the inevitable end of the Banite Sith and its preposterous Rule of Two. His calculations plainly indicated the coming of a shadow so vast it would darken the galaxy entirely- so vast it would mark the end of both Jedi and Sith as the universe had known them heretofore. The rise of the shadow would be the end of history itself.

Tenebrous had not the slightest doubt that the entire galaxy would measure time according to its arrival. Events would be marked by how far they had preceded the shadow, or by how long after it they followed.

"Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear of the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice- or a Jedi Order-to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!

A heady prospect, with only a single drawback:

Tenebrous was not to be that Sith Lord.

His own death was clearly foretold, entirely inevitable, and it would precede the rise of the shadow by decades. His fate was explicit in the numbers, and numbers do not lie. However-as Tenebrous came eventually to realize over his many years of research, contemplation and calculation-it might be possible for the numbers in question to be, well, deceived....

The key, he'd discovered, lay in an obscure legend obliquely referenced in the Journal of the Whills, about a hero fairly typical in most cultures-the sort of promised future savior who appears in the foundational myths of nearly every developed society. What distinguished this particular savior from his run-of-the-mill equivalents was that he, according to four of eleven possible translations, was to be "born of pure Force." After three standard years devoted specifically to exploring all possible permutations of the interpretation, Tenebrous determined that such a birth was indeed possible, at least metaphorically- "born of pure Force" could be read as indicating the creation of a living being through direct manipulation of midi-chlorian processes in an already living being.

And further, as Tenebrous discovered with rising excitement, such a being s Force potential might be limited not by its creator's own midi-chlorian count, but instead only by its creator's level of discipline and attention to detail. Indeed, his calculations indicated a range potentially far beyond his own. With proper execution, the "savior" might have a midi-chlorian count as high as fifteen thousand!

Perhaps even more.

It might be possible to create a being with the greatest Force potential ever recorded!

And-by the application of his own suitably subtle variation of the ancient Sith brute-force essence transfer-Tenebrous could ensure that his own consciousness would be present at the creation of this being, this savior, this Chosen One. And, at the moment of creation-long before the Chosen One could hope to resist- Tenebrous would seize it. Would become it.

With this single stroke, decades after his body's death, he would become the most powerful Force-user in the history of the galaxy." - The Tenebrous Way.

_________________________________________________

"Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment. Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time-to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself visible only as a smear of darkness....

A shadow!

For an instant, Tenebrous felt the death anguish of Plagueis.... and felt the searing agony Plagueis felt.... at his failure to have ever created the Force-user Tenebrous was to become! He would allow his own apprentice to kill him too soon...." - The Tenebrous Way.

So much cancer. It's blatantly Palpatine.

Was it really cancer? In all seriousness?

Its probably Sidious but it's ridiculously similar to Krayt, enough to make it arguable.

It describes that Sith Lord as "the shadow" the exact same thing Stover describes Palpatine as in the RotS novel, plus Tenebrous noted it was decades, not centuries which is the separation between him and Krayt. So yeah, it's obviously Palpatine. A for effort, though

Real talk, yes, it's cancer. It's obviously about Sidious.
""Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear of the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice- or a Jedi Order-to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!"

Is how Sidious envisioned himself. The One Sith that Krayt created is about the Sith being a fascist Order, not about there just being one Sith. Not to mention Krayt didn't exactly destroy the Jedi or really remake the Sith. He also had a ton of apprentices.

Then there's the pure idiocy of thinking Krayt would be present at Plagueis' death, as well as being the apprentice.

But really, neither is the "shadow." Because Plagueis failed in creating life from midichlorians.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Real talk, yes, it's cancer. It's obviously about Sidious.
""Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear of the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice- or a Jedi Order-to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!"

Is how Sidious envisioned himself. The One Sith that Krayt created is about the Sith being a fascist Order, not about there just being one Sith. Not to mention Krayt didn't exactly destroy the Jedi or really remake the Sith. He also had a ton of apprentices.

Then there's the pure idiocy of thinking Krayt would be present at Plagueis' death, as well as being the apprentice.

But really, neither is the "shadow." Because Plagueis failed in creating life from midichlorians.

So it's cancer because it was obvious?

Edit: Also it doesn't say the "shadow" would destroy the Jedi Order just that there would be no Jedi Order to challenge him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Real talk, yes, it's cancer.
I expect no less from DD, honestly.

Originally posted by MythLord
It describes that Sith Lord as "the shadow" the exact same thing Stover describes Palpatine as in the RotS novel, plus Tenebrous noted it was decades, not centuries which is the separation between him and Krayt. So yeah, it's obviously Palpatine. A for effort, though

You're right but then the NJO describes Krayt as a "shadow" too and then there's this.

"Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear of the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice- or a Jedi Order-to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!" - The Tenebrous Way.

Also it says the "rise" of the "shadow" would occur decades after his death but wouldn't Krayt's defeat by Obi Wan which ultimately set him on the path to the Dark Side fall in line with that timeline occurring "decades after" Tenebrous's death and couldn't that be constituted as Krayt's rise?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I expect no less from DD, honestly.

Oh. Ok.

ily tho. <3

Originally posted by Syndicate
So it's cancer because it was obvious?

Edit: Also it doesn't say the "shadow" would destroy the Jedi Order just that there would be no Jedi Order to challenge him.
And then the Jedi Order and the Imperial Not-Jedi Order destroy Krayt, where as there were next to no Jedi during DE.

Seriously, 2+2=4

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
ily tho. <3

Um... How? We don't interact all that often and when we do it's only you insulting me regardless of the subject matter. Unless you're a yandere who's developed an obsession with me by observing my internet actions I don't see how that would be possible. I find it far more likely you're in love with Wolf and because he and I disagree on some subjects you've seen fit to harass me especially because your harassment didn't start until after Wolf and I had a major disagreement here on KMC.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You're right but then the NJO describes Krayt as a "shadow" too and then there's this.

"Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear of the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice- or a Jedi Order-to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!" - The Tenebrous Way.

Also it says the "rise" of the "shadow" would occur decades after his death but wouldn't Krayt's defeat by Obi Wan which ultimately set him on the path to the Dark Side fall in line with that timeline occurring "decades after" Tenebrous's death and couldn't that be constituted as Krayt's rise?

Problem is Krayt didn't "rise" after Obi-Wan humiliated him. He rose during 130 ABY, IIRC. And that's two centuries after Tenebrous' death; Palpatine's rise, however, was a good chunk less than a century. Also, Krayt didn't "take hold of the Galaxy" nor did he destroy the Jedi Order, not nearly as efficiently as Sidious anyways. And Krayt had loads of apprentices, he even offered Cade to be his apprentice and then got killed, so yeah. It's obviously Sidious, but again: A for effort

You realize "ily" is primarily used as sarcasm / a joke?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And then the Jedi Order and the Imperial Not-Jedi Order destroy Krayt, where as there were next to no Jedi during DE.

Seriously, 2+2=4

Wasn't the GM of that era killed by Nihl and the Jedi scattered?

I don't know if it was Sidious or Krayt but I think the text was left vague enough for it to be open to interpretation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You realize "ily" is primarily used as sarcasm / a joke?

Oh. I always thought you were serious when you were saying it to me...

So Ant, was my post cancerous because the answer was obvious?

kek. I wasn't exactly serious, Syndi lmao.

As for the dissing you, I find it to be a fun endeavour. I do the same with Kurk, too. Used to do it with Wollf, Ant, and Nova. No hard feelings really meant by it, as I consider the latter 3 to be friends.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Oh. I always thought you were serious when you were saying it to me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VIGQCbAgL0

Originally posted by MythLord
Problem is Krayt didn't "rise" after Obi-Wan humiliated him. He rose during 130 ABY, IIRC. And that's two centuries after Tenebrous' death; Palpatine's rise, however, was a good chunk less than a century. Also, Krayt didn't "take hold of the Galaxy" nor did he destroy the Jedi Order, not nearly as efficiently as Sidious anyways. And Krayt had loads of apprentices, he even offered Cade to be his apprentice and then got killed, so yeah. It's obviously Sidious, but again: A for effort

It says he's honing/improving his skill in those 300 years and the Banite Line's rise took place over a thousand years. I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to Krayt. "Taking hold of the Galaxy." Can be interpreted in many different ways. Also as I mentioned to Freshest the text doesn't refer to destroying the Jedi Order only that there weren't Jedi around to challenge the "shadow's" power in their time. Fair enough about the apprentice's I guess but did Krayt ever intend to let Cade succeed him? Couldn't it have just been a ploy to gain a powerful servant like Sidious tried all the time? Also are you going to try to say "A for effort!" In your next post as well? If so I'd ask you to refrain as it's kind of annoying.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
kek. I wasn't exactly serious, Syndi lmao.

As for the dissing you, I find it to be a fun endeavour. I do the same with Kurk, too. Used to do it with Wollf, Ant, and Nova. No hard feelings really meant by it, as I consider the latter 3 to be friends.

Well I guess I don't have as thick a skin as them so I'd like you to stop if you don't mind.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VIGQCbAgL0

Ok. So Ant, you thought this thread was cancerous because the answer was obvious correct?

Okay, kewl.

Originally posted by Syndicate
]Wasn't the GM of that era killed by Nihl and the Jedi scattered?

The Grandmaster died and they then reconsolidated. The Jedi were hardly scattered, even when there was a huge bounty on them.

It's definitely Sidious. You're just being dumb7.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Ok.
Well, it should be noted I primarily use "ily" as synonymous with "I like you" (despite the true meaning being "I love you", although I also use it sarcastically. So it's like 50/50.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Grandmaster died and they then reconsolidated. The Jedi were hardly scattered, even when there was a huge bounty on them.

It's definitely Sidious. You're just being dumb7.

They didn't directly challenge Krayt though did they?

Am I? Does my question really constitute as dumb? And if so, why? Because the answer was obvious?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
kek. I wasn't exactly serious, Syndi lmao.

As for the dissing you, I find it to be a fun endeavour. I do the same with Kurk, too. Used to do it with Wollf, Ant, and Nova. No hard feelings really meant by it, as I consider the latter 3 to be friends.
Remember when we used to wage war against each other on CV, rofl? Good times.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, it should be noted I primarily use "ily" as synonymous with "I like you," although I also use it sarcastically. So it's like 50/50.

If I'm being honest I always thought people were using Ebonics ironically when saying "ILY"

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Remember when we used to wage war against each other on CV, rofl? Good times.

You're still doing it. You have yet to respond to him in the Revan/Vader debate in that thread I made.

Eh, not what I mean by "waging war," but ah yes, I need to bookmark that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Remember when we used to wage war against each other on CV, rofl? Good times.

Ah, yes. So many wrestling gifs, so many one-liners, so much fun.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, not what I mean by "waging war," but ah yes, I need to bookmark that.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Ah, yes. So many wrestling gifs, so many one-liners, so much fun.

I guess it has to do with where you guys came from. Ant went through hardships to get where he is today so its natural he'd be used to and even enjoy such toxicity. What about you friend? Why do you enjoy this sort of thing. Did you also develop in a rough part of the internet?

Originally posted by Syndicate
I guess it has to do with where you guys came from. Ant went through hardships to get where he is today so its natural he'd be used to and even enjoy such toxicity. What about you friend? Why do you enjoy this sort of thing. Did you also develop in a rough part of the internet?

RL, kek.
Me and my bro's tell each other we wish each other die everyday.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
RL, kek.
Me and my bro's tell each other we wish each other die everyday.

That's too bad.

I love it. We can tell each other anything we want, and no one takes it to heart.

Doesn't that make it hard to have real conversations?

At least that's the case on the internet.

Originally posted by Syndicate
They didn't directly challenge Krayt though did they?

Uh, duh they did. I guess you haven't read Legacy.

The question is dumb because it can't possibly be anyone but Sidious, as it's supposed to be Plagueis' apprentice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Uh, duh they did. I guess you haven't read Legacy.

The question is dumb because it can't possibly be anyone but Sidious, as it's supposed to be Plagueis' apprentice.

I haven't but wasn't Cade the primary source of opposition the One Sith faced?

It's supposed to be? Where does it state that? All Tenebrous's calculations account for is a single powerful individual ruling over the Sith ending the Banite line.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I haven't but wasn't Cade the primary source of opposition the One Sith faced?

No. There was an entire battle. The Jedi Order was not destroyed.

""Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment. Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time-to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself visible only as a smear of darkness....

A shadow!"

Seriously?

Tbh Sidious did have an apprentice (several actually), and he did destroy him. So using that argument against Krayt is kinda shite lol.

Yeah, Beni, if you didn't read DE or anything after RotJ where Sidious makes it clear he never actually planned on dying or for there to ever be any other true Sith. Keep on using that toptier logic of yours.

Lol yeah because DE Sidious ruled over the galaxy (oh wait lol) didn't have an apprentice (oh wait lol) who didn't destroy him (oh wait lol.)

Yeah your logic is really checking out.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. There was an entire battle. The Jedi Order was not destroyed.

""Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment. Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time-to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself visible only as a smear of darkness....

A shadow!"

Seriously?

This was after the GM was killed? Just because Tenebrous thought the "shadow" of his calculations was Plagueis's apprentice doesn't mean he was correct.

Yeah, just like nothing supporting you doesn't mean you are incorrect. But you probably are, because again, nothing supports you.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol yeah because DE Sidious ruled over the galaxy (oh wait lol) didn't have an apprentice (oh wait lol) who didn't destroy him (oh wait lol.)

Yeah your logic is really checking out.
He reconquered the vast majority of it in less than a year.

He was using Luke to get to Anakin.

Also, have you legit never heard of the Rule of One? I wouldn't be surprised; you've done nothing but disappoint me so far.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He reconquered the vast majority of it in less than a year.Lol, no he didn't. He struck at a handful of planets from the Core Worlds to the Mid Rim and briefly scared a few other territories into re-swearing allegiance, he failed to consolidate anything, failed to destroy the New Republic, and left what remained of the Empire to fight amongst itself. All of it passing very quickly in what what's been described as nothing but a fever dream.Who was dead... Lawls, which he flipped flopped on constantly and never fully implemented. Considering y'know, all those apprentices who destroyed him.

Didn't Lucas comment on Sidious adhering to the Rule of Two, saying that he was always trying to get the strongest guys to be his apprentice and carry the Sith forward, or something like that?

Yeah essentially. Sidious also says in Dark Lord that once he discovered the secret of everlasting life, he planned to share it with Vader, so they could rule over the galaxy as master and apprentice for eternity.

Awwww.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, no he didn't. He struck at a handful of planets from the Core Worlds to the Mid Rim and briefly scared a few other territories into re-swearing allegiance, he failed to consolidate anything, failed to destroy the New Republic, and left what remained of the Empire to fight amongst itself.

The New Republic not even being able to fight one man is hardly what I'd call Palpatine failing. You're acting as if Luke wasn't there things would have gone well. They would not have.

Because Krayt's empire lasted?

Anakin Solo. Palpatine needed a new body, Anakin, and an enforcer, Luke. he didn't want successors. That was the entire plot to DE.

Those weren't actual apprentices, if you paid any attention. He can't exactly go and solve all his problems himself. That is why he wanted enforcers. Said pretty clearly on page 4 or 5 in the Book of the Sith. He planned on being emperor forever. Which is why the quote is about him. This isn't some collective group that is all a single entity. This is about one man. The quote is speaking on the Sith so powerful he wouldn't need successors. I'd say the most powerful Sith in galactic history qualifies.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The New Republic not even being able to fight one man is hardly what I'd call Palpatine failing. You're acting as if Luke wasn't there things would have gone well. They would not have.I'm acting like Palpatine never retook hold of the galaxy, as he would have had to to fulfill the prophecy. No it didn't, but my point is Palpatine doesn't fulfill the prophecy any better than Krayt did. And yet Luke remained an apprentice he relied upon and was destroyed by, so he didn't fulfill the prophecy.
They weren't actual apprentices, despite Vader holding the Darth title, being a legitimate Sith Lord and described as Palpatine's apprentice (as was Luke) by multiple sources, including Sidious himself? But Krayt's underlings, who had no such relationship, and would never had succeeded him where total legit... Mmkay lmao.

I also recall Sidious saying that both Vader & Marek could/would succeed him (on top of seeing Luke as Anakin's second coming). mmm

And the prophecy says he'd have no need of an apprentice, yet he had apprentices, specifically referred to as such, that he needed. Lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Awwww. I know cute right.

Palpakin. <3

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah essentially. Sidious also says in Dark Lord that once he discovered the secret of everlasting life, he planned to share it with Vader, so they could rule over the galaxy as master and apprentice for eternity.


Awwww
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I know cute right.

Thats really cool. I wonder if Sheev, in his own twisted way, saw Annie as a son.

Sidious may have just been lying when he claimed that he never intended to have a successor, or it was a genuine cognitive dissonance.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Thats really cool. I wonder if Sheev, in his own twisted way, saw Annie as a son. Well, he must've. It is most likely that his understanding of such concepts is unique, though. For example, most people either have biological sons, or contemplate whether someone who isn't their biological child should truly be considered one etc. but Palps's view on this probably wasn't limned by those social norms. His feelings and thoughts regarding the idea of considering someone as his son was probably focused on other issues like whether that is a weakness or an unenlightened idea but I'd say he saw Anakin as a son in his own egotistical way as he actually participated in the events that caused Anakin's birth, and after he was basically the main father figure in Anakin's life (I'd say Kenobi is more like a brother). Not to mention Anakin was supposed to be his protege. It also helps to realize that despite Anakin's depiction in the movies, he was literally a walking miracle and quite precious for any faction in the movies. Seeing himself like a father to Anakin would be an idea that he should have no problem with, but that doesn't mean he'd actually care for Anakin cause he clearly didn't.

Yeah the way he referred to him as "my boy" pre-Vader is telling, I also felt like he created a similar relationship with Maul.

Which given thought is kinda unorthodox for a Banite Sith. mmm

Eh. With Maul I feel it was more master and sex slave if you've ever read any novels with EU Maul and Sidious.

Some good points have been made and Krayt is closer to Sidious than some may think but Palpy always wins.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah the way he referred to him as "my boy" pre-Vader is telling, I also felt like he created a similar relationship with Maul.

Which given thought is kinda unorthodox for a Banite Sith. mmm I don't see how. I think Sidious always considered Maul as an animal, nevertheless a skilled one.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see how. I think Sidious always considered Maul as an animal, nevertheless a skilled one. Nah he was much more the legitimate apprentice, and are even described as having a "familial bond", Maul was also taken from his mother and trained by Palpatine from a childhood. So he's the only father figure he ever had.

Um, there's been sources(Lucas included) directly stating that Sidious had never had compassion for Maul... So I doubt they had a "familial bond".

Um... um...

"Sidious had formed an almost filial bond with Maul. Attached to the present, he failed to grasp the truth: that this was the last time he and his apprentice might see each other in the flesh."

--Darth Plagueis

Suck it.

Also familial (though it actually reads filial, i.e. between child and parent) doesn't necessarily mean compassionate.

Ah, so they had a papa and son bond, but an abusive papa and son bond. Works for me, I guess.

Essentially.