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Mmkay, so hear me out.

During the fight, its my belief that Katarn was held back by the other Jedi with him, therefore couldn't perform to his full potential, I still doubt he would have won, but if he was alone, I feel like he'd perform much, much better, and that it'd be an actual fight.

Right. Because being in a group is why he was stabbed instantly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Right. Because being in a group is why he was stabbed instantly. Isn't it said that he had to go help the other students from getting cut to pieces by Caedus?

They were all amateur jedi.

As I recall Katarn would have been killed quickly if a teammate didn't block a hit.

Yup. Unless the text indicates he was held back, I don't see Jmans point.

It is possible Katarn left his defense less then it would if he was in a 1v1 simply because he believed he could rely on his team to save him which they ultimately did and that being able to focus more on offense he could pressure Caedus so that he would be unable to focus on cutting down his fellow Jedi.

^ Cancer.

He wasn't held back. He would've been missing a leg after a few-seconds-long exchange if it wasn't for them.

Originally posted by MythLord
^ Cancer.

He wasn't held back. He would've been missing a leg after a few-seconds-long exchange if it wasn't for them. Except its stated he was because he had to keep saving them which caused him injury.

Originally posted by MythLord
^ Cancer.

He wasn't held back. He would've been missing a leg after a few-seconds-long exchange if it wasn't for them.

I didn't say he was held back. I'm simply saying it's possible he knew he could rely on the other Jedi which is why he chose to devote more of his energies to his offense then his defense.

Originally posted by MythLord
^ Cancer.

He wasn't held back. He would've been missing a leg after a few-seconds-long exchange if it wasn't for them.

You are aware Myth, that Force Meld is rather popular among members the New Jedi Order. The ability that allowed several Jedi fighting, to act as a single, powerful entity under unified co-ordination. It is very probable that it was used in that situation, given Jacen's own comments on their collective blade-work. If it was used - which is very likely - then Katarn's confidence in his team member's ability to provide backup, is certainly justified. There is no real reason to think the fight would play out the exact same way, if there were no other Jedi accompanying him. So I wouldn't disallow Syndicate's view on the matter just yet.

Who would have thought Ziggy and DD would formulate solid arguments in favor of the Kyle Katarn brigade?

Good work, my pawns.

For a Kyp wanker you seem to not be very supportive of his dueling peer.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You are aware Myth, that Force Meld is rather popular among members the New Jedi Order. The ability that allowed several Jedi fighting, to act as a single, powerful entity under unified co-ordination. It is very probable that it was used in that situation, given Jacen's own comments on their collective blade-work. If it was used - which is very likely - then Katarn's confidence in his team member's ability to provide backup, is certainly justified. There is no real reason to think the fight would play out the exact same way, if there were no other Jedi accompanying him. So I wouldn't disallow Syndicate's view on the matter just yet.

So because he used Force Meld, that means he left himself exposed on purpose? That's both conjecture and just idiotic. Both Caedus and Kyle knew the other Jedi were no threat to the former, so I doubt Katarn would've went all-in and risked an amputation.

Well, tbf Katarn was probably worried about the other Jedi getting killed. I don't think he was focused.

I think Caedus is just way better than him.

That's obvious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think Caedus is just way better than him.



Caedus outclasses Kyle. Deal with it.

Originally posted by MythLord
So because he used Force Meld, that means he left himself exposed on purpose? That's both conjecture and just idiotic.

It certainly is idiotic, especially when you use a reductio ad absurdum to make it sound so. I implore that you open your mind to several circumstances that aren't just possible, but are also very likely. From the start, Katarn is able to sense the world in a spectrum beyond sight, smell and hearing. With the Force he is able to produce sphere of vision that can sense movement around him - which conveniently extends to actions of his team mates. On top of that, the Force grants him premonitions into the future, however, the battlemeld takes this one step further:

"It permits a group of Jedi to connect their minds so closely as to act as a single person." ―Jorus C'baoth, excerpt taken from Outbound Flight.

Jacen also notes that his failure to dismember Katarn wasn't due to some fluke, but rather that the team he faced presented good co-ordination.

I agree. None of this points toward Katarn being hindered by having a well-coordinated team of Jedi backing him, though.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I implore that you open your mind to several circumstances that aren't just possible, but are also very likely. From the start, Katarn is able to sense the world in a spectrum beyond sight, smell and hearing. With the Force he is able to produce sphere of vision that can sense movement around him - which conveniently extends to actions of his team mates.

So you're saying Katarn having great sense feats means he's using Battle Meld? I'm pretty sure passive sense is a thing even in battle.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
On top of that, the Force grants him premonitions into the future, however, the battlemeld takes this one step further:

"It permits a group of Jedi to connect their minds so closely as to act as a single person." ―Jorus C'baoth, excerpt taken from Outbound Flight.

Except here they didn't really act as a single person, given how they kept being taken out by Caedus, and the only time they actually coordinated was when Kolir saved Katarn from an amputation and Katarn saved Hu'lya.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Jacen also notes that his failure to dismember Katarn wasn't due to some fluke, but rather that the team he faced presented good co-ordination.

He notes they're coordinating and that somehow means Katarn's willing to open himself up to get his leg skewered by Caedus? It means they're there to save/protect their allies, much like any good Jedi should Meld or not.

It doesn't mean Kyle is braindead enough to leave himself exposed to an amputation.

If he had enough faith in his teammates that he thought they would be able to defend him against such a strike then I see no reason why he wouldn't have devoted more focus to his offense over his defense.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I agree. None of this points toward Katarn being hindered by having a well-coordinated team of Jedi backing him, though. Did you even read the book? The team was getting destroyed, and Katarn had to keep saving them. Katarn got saved about two times and the rest of the fight was Katarn running around trying to save the members of his team, which gave him unwanted injury several times.

Originally posted by MythLord
So you're saying Katarn having great sense feats means he's using Battle Meld? I'm pretty sure passive sense is a thing even in battle. It doesn't mean Kyle is braindead enough to leave himself exposed to an amputation.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the point here so I'll try to explain in a little more depth. The nature of this dispute is whether or not Katarn would have fought Caedus in the exact same manner, had their not been a team of coordinated individuals to aid him. You seem to think the fight would be nil unchanged, and that someone who Jacen originally perceived as a threat, would be one leg shorter after a mere 15 seconds of battle... but Katarn wasn't alone.




Premise 1. The New Jedi Order were notorious for using Force melds among small groups of people, even when piloting star fighters, so it's very likely that the team's alleged coordination is in small thanks to said ability

Premise 2. Even without a Force meld, Katarn can afford to overextend himself with the backup of another three lightsabers behind him. You must remember that Katarn like all Jedi can perceive the world in a spectrum far beyond the five senses. Imagine that the Force creates a spherical barrier allowing Katarn to not only detect the shapes and movements of his teammates, but also their emotions.

Premise 3. On top of his other perceptive abilities, the Force gives him premonitions into the future. However slight these fore-warnings may be, they still allow Katarn to predict the attacks of an opponent before they happen. In accordance to this fact, they also allow him to foresee the actions of his squad, perhaps envisioning a blue-bladed lightsaber coming to save his leg, rather than a scarlet one amputating it. I hope you'll agree with this particular point, otherwise you might as well argue that Dooku would have been killed Coleman Trebor, if not for the interception of the most dangerous bounty hunter in the galaxy.

Premise 4. If the Force meld was used, then Katarn can almost certainly perform riskier moves to subdue Caedus, while relying on his squad to provide sufficient support. It's not really question after that, the battle meld can link the minds of a group so well that it will often cause the users to start finishing each other's sentences or thoughts.

Conclusion : Katarn would have approached a fight with Caedus very differently had he been alone, and would have probably lost in long and good fight.



Force melds do not assure that the group using it will become invincible. As noted in The Unseen Queen, It is true that if the meld participants were distracted in thoughts and could not focus to a common objective, then the meld could become a liability or break off altogether. So I hope you realize that by his own admittance, Jacen was on the loosing end of the duel against the strike team in question, until the Plaza's alarm was raised with the presence of several speeders, which did distract the team. From there of course, he started picking apart the lesser team members with his Force abilities.



It's certainly less brain dead than the assumption that Katarn's fight would have played out in the exact same manner, had there not been other circumstances attached.

So all I'm getting is: Jedi in the NJO use Force Meld, which the book doesn't even mention Katarn and his team using. Katarn is more devoted to offense than defense. Caedus' subjective opinions somehow means Kyle left himself exposed on purpose.

All conjecture, coming from two trolls.

At least it's better than EvanNova's argument

The novel makes it clear that Kyle was saved by his teammates. There was no ill coordination involved, lol. Kyle doesn't stand a chance against Caedus either way.

Originally posted by MythLord
So all I'm getting is: Jedi in the NJO use Force Meld, which the book doesn't even mention Katarn and his team using. Katarn is more devoted to offense than defense. Caedus' subjective opinions somehow means Kyle left himself exposed on purpose.

All conjecture, coming from two trolls.

At least it's better than EvanNova's argument

I hope there's more to come after this...

Yeah, I hate to say it, but Ziggy kinda raped Wollf here, tbh.

Nigga, tell that lie to someone else. You're just here for the Katarn wank.

Ziggy kind of rapes himself tbh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nigga, tell that lie to someone else. You're just here for the Katarn wank.

How dare you....

I would never pick wank over a friend, do I look like DMB to you?

Yoooo DC if you're looking to wank Katarn then you're gonna LOVE the shit i found the JO guide and other sources

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
How dare you....

I would never pick wank over a friend, do I look like DMB to you?

Is Ziggy actually arguing that a Force Meld would have impeded Katarn instead of greatly benefit him?

Because lol if so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is Ziggy actually arguing that a Force Meld would have impeded Katarn instead of greatly benefit him?

Because lol if so.

No it isn't. Mine and Wolf's dispute, which wolf has officially conceded to by the way, was wether Katarn would have lost a leg in the first 15 seconds of a duel, if he fought Caedus without a potentially 'melded' team. It's a little off-topic, hence the 3rd party confusion, but It is almost purely in regards to this part of the fight and nothing else:

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation. They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.

- Legacy of the Force : Fury

I'm suggesting that Katarn can respectively rely on his teammates to provide sufficient support, especially if they're in a 'meld' and that it's illogical to assume the fight would play out in the exact same manner if his team were not present.

Officially conceded because I don't bother entertaining a troll, who's entire argument is based on conjecture, so Katarn let Caedus nearly amputate him

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Ziggy.

Originally posted by MythLord
Officially conceded because I don't bother entertaining a troll, who's entire argument is based on conjecture,
Whatever helps you sleep at night, Ziggy.

Now Wolfmyth, there really is no need to get so personal about this, it is merely a friendly dispute. Becoming personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, is a poor way to save face.



And I've explained in detail why that is not the case. I even gave you a comparable instance, or do you wish to admit that Dooku would have been killed by the almighty Coleman Trebor had Jango Fett not been there to save him?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
How dare you....

I would never pick wank over a friend, do I look like DMB to you?
You're basically DMB for Durron, you assbackwards, NJO wanking ****.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Now Wolfmyth, there really is no need to get so personal about this, it is merely a friendly dispute. Becoming personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, is a poor way to save face.

Except, you openly admitted you're a troll and your entire argument is just a baseless claim of Meld, where Kyle risks an amputation because he knows there's three people there next to him. The same three people that weren't even a match for Caedus, collectively.

Also, calling you a troll is apparently an insult. Where are you from, tumblr?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And I've explained in detail why that is not the case. I even gave you a comparable instance, or do you wish to admit that Dooku would have been killed by the almighty Coleman Trebor had Jango Fett not been there to save him?

If Trebor gets the drop on him and Dooku's unready, sure. There's a difference between leaving yourself exposed while you attack someone, and then getting nearly amputated and literally standing around and having someone jump at you with an activated lightsaber.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yoooo DC if you're looking to wank Katarn then you're gonna LOVE the shit i found the JO guide and other sources

Reveal it then, please.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're basically DMB for Durron, you assbackwards, NJO wanking ****.

I'd like to think I'm a bit better than that. DMB seems to be someone that would be on the receiving end of a glory hole for a good Bane, feat. I don't think I'd ever do anything that drastic...

Originally posted by MythLord
Except, you openly admitted you're a troll

I don't like the word troll and I certainly wouldn't consider myself one, I simply have controversial views regarding many versus threads that have been disputed for the best part of ten years. I am not so unaware of myself, to know that I likely have the most controversial views on this board, so that if I truly wen't out of my way to force 'top tens' down other peoples throats, most users would start to think that LeGend is moderate in comparison. Although I do enjoy debating, which is what this board is designed for, I'm not so arrogant to believe that my opinions are indisputable facts of canon. I can admit I might be wrong on a subject, but would also prefer to be proven wrong.



Well perhaps if you actually read my post, before hitting the reply button, you might discover that my standpoint doesn't rest entirely on 'Meld', and that the probability of the team using such a technique is not baseless, rather that it's more than likely. This is adhered to by several premises:

Premise 1: Because of it's ease in learning, and it's effectivity in small groups, the battle meld technique was very popular among members of the New Jedi Order. It is used in too many missions to reference, and would be especially helpful in duel with Caedus. There doesn't seem to be a reason why they wouldn't have used it.

Premise 2: The duel itself is written almost entirely from the perspective of Jacen, and there is even passage where Solo - within his own thoughts - refers to himself in the first person. With that in mind, there naturally no mention of a Force meld, because the team in question aren't dictating the narrative and the reader is unaware of their thoughts and perspectives. There is only one point in that entire fight, where the narrator is speaking from someone other than Jacen's viewpoint. A small section which includes the onlooking perspective of Seha Dorvald, who was watching the fight from a safe distance. These were her thoughts regarding the ensuing battle :



In particular, the young Jedi notes how well choreographed the fight was. Like it had been planned for years. Now the team in question aren't a regular fixture with the synergy of Anakin and Obi Wan, nor do they possess a Force-bond formed through years of brotherly apprenticeship. What they do have on the other hand, is a technique that might be able to produce similar results, and can merge their collective minds in to one with greatly enhanced team work.

Premise 3: In short; Jacen notes that his failure to amputate Katarn was due to the teams coordination. I see no reason to contradict him on this particular matter.



I've already this refuted point with every dialect possible. It would be much appreciated if you went back and addressed those refutations in a proper manner.



Oh really? I find that sentiment rather ironic, especially coming from someone who not long since complained about using "Caedus' subjective opinion" on the matter. That is fine of course, but to avoid being a bit of a hypocrite, I expect you'll also agree that Katarn is a valid threat to Jacen, rather than someone who get's amputated after ten seconds of battle, without a team of people who aren't "even a collective match for Caedus" to save him. Your choice



Whatever. Back to the argument?



This statement right here should inspire it's own thread and a healthy set of memes to go with it. I mean... seriously? You're now willing to argue that the 80 year old Sith Lord was unprepared for a Jedi attacker in the middle of some massive battlefield? And that he would have been killed if it weren't for Jango Fett's quickdraw? The same Sith Lord who had triumphed on Galidraan against the Mandalorians? The same Sith Lord who successfully warded off Ventress and two of her companions, after being unexpectedly woken up from a night's sleep? Really? Well, let me suggest a more logical alternative. Dooku has the ability use Force sense, an abilty of which you can find repeated explanations on the pervious pages. Dooku was gazing upon a Warzone containing an excessive amount of Jedi hostiles, ergo, Dooku is likely using his abilties to sense people and actions through the Force. Dooku know's that Jango Fett is behind him, who will protect the wealthy Count from a lightsaber wielding dinosaur at almost all costs. Dooku can also use the Force to predict the exact moment when Jango will draw out his blaster, killing his assailant.

Wollf. this is your what your retorts are looking like right now


http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/000/821/981/b545b683bcde52aa7aa9abe50216dae0.gif

Originally posted by Ziggystardust



This statement right here should inspire it's own thread and a healthy set of memes to go with it. I mean... seriously? You're now willing to argue that the 80 year old Sith Lord was unprepared for a Jedi attacker in the middle of some massive battlefield? And that he would have been killed if it weren't for Jango Fett quickdraw?

Actually yeah, there is some truth to that.

drylaugh

At the end of the day, serisouly? Any 3rd party source stating Trebor would have killed Dooku, is about as reliable as the fact files stating that Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched in the Force, or that Bane has more knowledge and Mastery of the Darkside than good ol Vitiate. As part of LFL house policy, they're not something that have to be taken at face value:

This is still what I think of this argument :

http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/000/821/981/b545b683bcde52aa7aa9abe50216dae0.gif

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Actually yeah, there is some truth to that.

I've been telling people for years Trebor would have slain Dooku if not for Jango. Finally! The recognition Coleman deserves!

Except those sources don't really branch away from the movies at all, just saying. It says what could have happened, yet didn't, that's it. At any rate, don't see why it's a big deal.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

I'd like to think I'm a bit better than that. DMB seems to be someone that would be on the receiving end of a glory hole for a good Bane, feat. I don't think I'd ever do anything that drastic...
You'd like to think that, but you'd also have your pants down in a backally for the guy with a quote about Kyp being Ones-tier.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Reveal it then, please.
Some context would be lovely, hun. Otherwise this looks naughty



*With a fictional character.

Ftfy. Because IRL you finna smash anyone with an apple bottom pair of jeans and some boots with the fur tbh

The whole club be looking at her.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The whole club be looking at her.


She hit the floor (she hit the flo)
Next thing you know
Shawty got low low low low low low low low

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well perhaps if you actually read my post, before hitting the reply button, you might discover that my standpoint doesn't rest entirely on 'Meld', and that the probability of the team using such a technique is not baseless, rather that it's more than likely. This is adhered to by several premises:

Premise 1: Because of it's ease in learning, and it's effectivity in small groups, the battle meld technique was very popular among members of the New Jedi Order. It is used in too many missions to reference, and would be especially helpful in duel with Caedus. There doesn't seem to be a reason why they wouldn't have used it.

Premise 2: The duel itself is written almost entirely from the perspective of Jacen, and there is even passage where Solo - within his own thoughts - refers to himself in the first person. With that in mind, there naturally no mention of a Force meld, because the team in question aren't dictating the narrative and the reader is unaware of their thoughts and perspectives. There is only one point in that entire fight, where the narrator is speaking from someone other than Jacen's viewpoint. A small section which includes the onlooking perspective of Seha Dorvald, who was watching the fight from a safe distance. These were her thoughts regarding the ensuing battle :



In particular, the young Jedi notes how well choreographed the fight was. Like it had been planned for years. Now the team in question aren't a regular fixture with the synergy of Anakin and Obi Wan, nor do they possess a Force-bond formed through years of brotherly apprenticeship. What they do have on the other hand, is a technique that might be able to produce similar results, and can merge their collective minds in to one with greatly enhanced team work.

Premise 3: In short; Jacen notes that his failure to amputate Katarn was due to the teams coordination. I see no reason to contradict him on this particular matter.


Oh really? I find that sentiment rather ironic, especially coming from someone who not long since complained about using "Caedus' subjective opinion" on the matter. That is fine of course, but to avoid being a bit of a hypocrite, I expect you'll also agree that Katarn is a valid threat to Jacen, rather than someone who get's amputated after ten seconds of battle, without a team of people who aren't "even a collective match for Caedus" to save him. Your choice


This statement right here should inspire it's own thread and a healthy set of memes to go with it. I mean... seriously? You're now willing to argue that the 80 year old Sith Lord was unprepared for a Jedi attacker in the middle of some massive battlefield? And that he would have been killed if it weren't for Jango Fett's quickdraw? The same Sith Lord who had triumphed on Galidraan against the Mandalorians? The same Sith Lord who successfully warded off Ventress and two of her companions, after being unexpectedly woken up from a night's sleep? Really? Well, let me suggest a more logical alternative. Dooku has the ability use Force sense, an abilty of which you can find repeated explanations on the pervious pages. Dooku was gazing upon a Warzone containing an excessive amount of Jedi hostiles, ergo, Dooku is likely using his abilties to sense people and actions through the Force. Dooku know's that Jango Fett is behind him, who will protect the wealthy Count from a lightsaber wielding dinosaur at almost all costs. Dooku can also use the Force to predict the exact moment when Jango will draw out his blaster, killing his assailant.

Well said.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
No it isn't. Mine and Wolf's dispute, which wolf has officially conceded to by the way, was wether Katarn would have lost a leg in the first 15 seconds of a duel, if he fought Caedus without a potentially 'melded' team. It's a little off-topic, hence the 3rd party confusion, but It is almost purely in regards to this part of the fight and nothing else:

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation. They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.

- Legacy of the Force : Fury

I'm suggesting that Katarn can respectively rely on his teammates to provide sufficient support, especially if they're in a 'meld' and that it's illogical to assume the fight would play out in the exact same manner if his team were not present.

Put simply, had Kyle been fighting Caedus alone he wouldn't have lost a leg in the first 15 seconds because he wouldn't have thrown that kick to begin with.