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Pick the closest Marvel character in strength to the following DC characters. And say how close (ideally, almost equal).

Superman (All-Out)
Superman (regular Day)
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers)
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on)
Shazam!/Black Adam
Martian Manhunter
Orion
Aquaman

Superman (All-Out) - Hyperion
Superman (regular Day) - Thor
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers) - Thanos
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on) - Bill
Shazam!/Black Adam - Is this new 52 versions
Martian Manhunter
Orion - Blue Marvel
Aquaman - Ares

DCU continuity is a mess with Rebirth--it seems like pre and post Flashpoint characters may essentially be the same.

Interesting list Carver. Do you think that Hyperion is stronger than Thor, Gladiator, Blue Marvel or even Thanos?

I haven't done all the math here, but this is my baseline Marvel vs. DC heuristic:

Gladiator/Thor/Beta Ray Bill/Hyperion/Hercules/Wonder Woman (DCnU, Bracers On, Not God of War)/Orion/Shazam!/Black Adam

I think these guys are all basically the same strength. There may be others who end up on that level, like Blue Marvel, but there is more uncertainty about them. A lot of these guys are established as near or complete strenth equals with one another in the same company. I feel this list is pretty stable and solid and a good starting point for then extrapolating other matchups.

Let me try:

Superman (all out)--Sentry in World War Hulk, Kurse at full power, Thanos (this is pretty variable. We can't just use OWAW here as some writers have an all-out Superman who doesn't get that much of a boost. Still, he's capable of exceeding even the double-amped Wonder Woman.)

Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers off)--Thor w/ Belt of Strength, Nefaria, Kurse (a range here--not quite sure where she is in that range)

Superman (normal day)--Can't really think of a Marvel character here. I think regular Superman is closer to the tier below than the one above.

Wonder Woman (God of War/Bracers on)--Blue Marvel (assuming he has a small edge over Thor, etc.)/Blood and Thunder Thor

Shazam/Black Adam/Orion/Wonder Woman (no God of War, Bracers on)--Thor/Beta Ray Bill/Gladiator/Hyperion/Hercules

Martian Manhunter--Gilgamesh

Aquaman--Ikaris

Originally posted by carver9
Superman (All-Out) - Hyperion
Superman (regular Day) - Thor
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers) - Thanos
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on) - Bill
Shazam!/Black Adam - Is this new 52 versions
Martian Manhunter
Orion - Blue Marvel
Aquaman - Ares


In no world, Wonder woman is stronger than Superman.

Unless you think Hyperion is stronger than Thanos that is.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
DCU continuity is a mess with Rebirth--it seems like pre and post Flashpoint characters may essentially be the same.

Interesting list Carver. Do you think that Hyperion is stronger than Thor, Gladiator, Blue Marvel or even Thanos?

They're not the same.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman (All-Out) - Hyperion
Superman (regular Day) - Thor
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers) - Thanos
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on) - Bill
Shazam!/Black Adam - Is this new 52 versions
Martian Manhunter
Orion - Blue Marvel
Aquaman - Ares

Isn't Ares like a 70 tonner?..

I keep forgetting we post at two different sites; thought my post(s) had been erased.
Anyhow:


Superman (All-Out)-(Pissed off) Hulk
Superman (regular Day)-Hulk
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers)-Blood & Thunder Thor
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on)-Blue Marvel
Shazam!/Black Adam-(fully confident) Gladiator
Martian Manhunter-Hyperion
Orion-Hyperion
Aquaman-Sub Mariner

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Let me try:

Superman (all out)--Sentry in World War Hulk, Kurse at full power, Thanos (this is pretty variable. We can't just use OWAW here as some writers have an all-out Superman who doesn't get that much of a boost. Still, he's capable of exceeding even the double-amped Wonder Woman.)

Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers off)--Thor w/ Belt of Strength, Nefaria, Kurse (a range here--not quite sure where she is in that range)

Superman (normal day)--Can't really think of a Marvel character here. I think regular Superman is closer to the tier below than the one above.

Wonder Woman (God of War/Bracers on)--Blue Marvel (assuming he has a small edge over Thor, etc.)/Blood and Thunder Thor

Shazam/Black Adam/Orion/Wonder Woman (no God of War, Bracers on)--Thor/Beta Ray Bill/Gladiator/Hyperion/Hercules

Martian Manhunter--Gilgamesh

Aquaman--Ikaris

There were only 2 instances where it was told Superman went all out. In DOS and in OWAW. Other times were retconn as mental blocks that could only be released through mediation and training.

Superman is at least 5 times more powerful going all out.
1. He fought DD for hours without being able to damage him to killing him in a few panels.
2. He fought a single probe for a long time to killing multiple of them with one shot each.

Superman all out would be close to no one in Marvel. WBH would exceed him and WWH would be far beneath him.
Regular Superman would be close to WWH

That started out interesting, segued into masking sense then gutter balled into silly.

Originally posted by riv6672
That started out interesting, segued into masking sense then gutter balled into silly.

If you mean H1, I usually skim or skip right over his posts if I'm just reading, and decide whether it's actually worth the headache of dealing with his not understanding comics when I actively debate a topic.

I've gotten so good at not paying attention to him that unless I feel I have to engage him, it's like I have him on ignore.

Quite wise.

Originally posted by Delta1938
If you mean H1, I usually skim or skip right over his posts if I'm just reading, and decide whether it's actually worth the headache of dealing with his not understanding comics when I actively debate a topic.

I've gotten so good at not paying attention to him that unless I feel I have to engage him, it's like I have him on ignore.

Lol...I do the same thing (now let me get back to replying to your other post).

Originally posted by riv6672
I keep forgetting we post at two different sites; thought my post(s) had been erased.
Anyhow:


Superman (All-Out)-(Pissed off) Hulk
Superman (regular Day)-Hulk
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers)-Blood & Thunder Thor
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on)-Blue Marvel
Shazam!/Black Adam-(fully confident) Gladiator
Martian Manhunter-Hyperion
Orion-Hyperion
Aquaman-Sub Mariner

Is Hulk the only being comparable to Superman in Marvel when it comes to strength?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Isn't Ares like a 70 tonner?..

Nope, he isn't.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...I do the same thing (now let me get back to replying to your other post).

PFFFT you said "I'll get to it in a minute" almost 4 hours ago!!! I won't be surprised if by the time I'm done making dinner and then eating, I'll still be waiting for your reply.

Originally posted by carver9
Is Hulk the only being comparable to Superman in Marvel when it comes to strength?
No.

Hulk is basically the only mainstream, prominent Marvel hero who can match or exceed Superman at strength when Superman is having one of his "Superhero to superheroes, the whole world depends on me" moments.
But Superman has lots of peers at DC or Marvel when he's just at his baseline (whatever that is)--just like Hulk. Difference is, Hulk's "baseline" is even more ephemeral than Superman's.

Originally posted by carver9
Nope, he isn't.

What is he then

If you start digging into more fringe characters and even villains at Marvel, then there's a pretty deep bench of guys with crazy strength.

Superman (All-Out) - Fully amped Zeus
Superman (regular Day) - WBH
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers) - WBH
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on) - WWH
Shazam!/Black Adam - Incredible Hulk
Martian Manhunter - Hyperion
Orion - WBH
Aquaman Savage Hulk

1. All-out superman? All out any one of his peer. 2. Regular superman? Regular any one of his peers. Example, me fighting a house cat then fighting a lion for my life, same strength just using it all against that lion. I got no stronger, but that lion required it all. 3. The rest later.

No. Superman gets more of a boost when cutting loose than almost any other character.

Originally posted by JBL
1. All-out superman? All out any one of his peer. 2. Regular superman? Regular any one of his peers. Example, me fighting a house cat then fighting a lion for my life, same strength just using it all against that lion. I got no stronger, but that lion required it all. 3. The rest later.

Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
No. Superman gets more of a boost when cutting loose than almost any other character.

FYI, he'll fight tooth and nail to refuse to concede, despite being proven wrong. He won't even do a Battlezone on it. Kept coming up with excuses that "Superman fans would spam it up" even though only the participants, refs, judges and mods(if needed) are allowed to post in them, and kept saying that it would be a biased judging panel because of the Superman fans, despite the fact that A: there's definitely more neutral and haters than there are Superman fans, and B: all participants are to agree on judges to keep it as fair, impartial and unbiased as possible.

He kept making excuses no matter how many pineapples he was offered just for participating, let alone winning.

EDIT: Actually I think it's just me he's afraid to do that with, as I even offered to let him have others help him in the BZ, me against multiple debaters, and he once challenged Pr to the very same topic when he thought he'd be safe against him. For some reason.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.

Deal with it. That's YOUR opinion. In supermans 60+ years of comics, he has always had characters that are almost, just as or stronger than him. At no time in that 60+ years has it been stated, shown or implied that he is slightly, equal to or weaker than any character UNTIL he lets loose. Your fan based beliefs does not match the characters history. Captain Marvel has ALWAYS been close to superman in strength and always will be. There are characters a little to a lot stronger than superman. Show Me a statement from any writer that says superman is weaker than character X UNTIL he goes all out. But I know, we all know everytime superman loses a fight, it's because he held back or mental blocks got his azz handed to him? Get out of here with this crap.

Originally posted by JBL
That's YOUR opinion. In supermans 60+ years of comics, he has always had characters that are almost, just as or stronger than him. At no time in that 60+ years has it been stated, shown or implied that he is slightly, equal to or weaker than any character UNTIL he lets loose. Your fan based beliefs does not match the characters history. Captain Marvel has ALWAYS been close to superman in strength and always will be. There are characters a little to a lot stronger than superman. Show Me a statement from any writer that says superman is weaker than character X UNTIL he goes all out. But I know, we all know everytime superman loses a fight, it's because he held back or mental blocks got his azz handed to him? Get out of here with this crap.

Except, it has been shown, and you're too afraid to take it to a BZ. Except when you challenged Pr, but you're afraid to take my challenge.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except they actually did say that in a comic.

Superman has dynamic strength, and has for years now.

The argument that he doesn't is either born of ignorance or hate, imo.

Originally posted by JBL
No he does not. I tell you what, let me and you take this to a battlezone. But let me ask you these questions. Why does superman sundipp or gets outside amps? When has superman fought and equal and was noted to stop holding back or drop mental blocks and all of a sudden gets stronger than his stated equal?

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/bamdropsmic.gif

Originally posted by Delta1938
Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.

Deal with it.

Let's not go too far. Superman is not the Hulk. Superman's dynamism, and the exact nature of it, varies from writer to writer.
I think there are some writers, who, at one end of the spectrum feel that Superman holds back a bit more than other top tiers, but that's it. No great dynamism relative to other heroes. And when he loses or stalemates, he loses or stalemates. Sure, he could have gone harder, bit so could the other guy.
But some writers had a very dynamic Superman. Some in the middle. It's complex.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Let's not go too far. Superman is not the Hulk. Superman's dynamism, and the exact nature of it, varies from writer to writer.
I think there are some writers, who, at one end of the spectrum feel that Superman holds back a bit more than other top tiers, but that's it. No great dynamism relative to other heroes. And when he loses or stalemates, he loses or stalemates. Sure, he could have gone harder, bit so could the other guy.
But some writers had a very dynamic Superman. Some in the middle. It's complex.

Writers having different opinions doesn't change the fact that it's clearly established canon(ever since Byrne) regardless of how it works.

Stop with this Marvel appeasement bullshit. The issue is people denying it exists at all.

Sure. The guys trying to say he's just like any other hero in this respect are being obtuse.
But thinking there is some strict canon--that something shown unambiguously by some writers automatically applies to others--is almost as big a mistake.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Sure. The guys trying to say he's just like any other hero in this respect are being obtuse.
But thinking there is some strict canon--that something shown unambiguously by some writers automatically applies to others--is almost as big a mistake.

But the way you bring it up the majority of the time(you and I haven't interacted much, but I've seen plenty of your posts over the years) is unnecessary. Yes, writers have different opinions. But this doesn't go just for Superman. It goes for every character. The way you bring it up is pretty much only needed if the topic refers to specific writers and people are bringing up writers not in the topic.

It's a tough thing to just average out and still capture the complexity of the situation. I tend to only describe it in this complexity--writer to writer--when we are talking about the dynamic itself.
Usually, when evaluating Superman fights, I note that he is hard to rate because of the dynamism and the inconsistent nature of its portrayal. But I do tend to rate his fights in a simple, if bifurcated way: all out or normal. But I don't think you can treat his average for "all-out" as OWAW level, either.
I see too many people going to one extreme or the other on this. He's either just like any other hero, or he's the Hulk and could go to OWAW Probe-busting level in any fight if he gets pissed enough. It's somewhere in between, but it's also hard to really articulate where that is.

You make it needlessly convoluted.

Also I doubt it's strictly an anger thing to trigger it, considering numerous examples.

Answer this. When superman was arm wrestling CM, what made him say that they were too evenly matched? Why didn't he go all out and win? Did his so-called mental blocks block his ability to tell the truth? Every writer agrees that they are close in strength. Fans don't though. Yeah right, fans count.😂

Now the big question. Why does superman sunamp or sundipp? If he had dynamic strength, does the sunamp or sundipp cancel out the mental blocks because he does get stronger.? How did all-star superman get 3 times stronger and how was that scientist able to know that if superman had no base limit to his strength? There are plenty other things.

Every character has beaten people or things that they had no business beating, but only good ole supes gets credit for having dynamic strength when he does this. Spider-Mans strength increased not one bit nor did his speed but he beat a Herald of Galactus. I'm going to say that Spider-Man dynamic strength when he cut loose put him in the class of surfer and Thor since they didn't do that to firelord. High Herald Spider-Man now.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
It's a tough thing to just average out and still capture the complexity of the situation. I tend to only describe it in this complexity--writer to writer--when we are talking about the dynamic itself.
Usually, when evaluating Superman fights, I note that he is hard to rate because of the dynamism and the inconsistent nature of its portrayal. But I do tend to rate his fights in a simple, if bifurcated way: all out or normal. But I don't think you can treat his average for "all-out" as OWAW level, either.
I see too many people going to one extreme or the other on this. He's either just like any other hero, or he's the Hulk and could go to OWAW Probe-busting level in any fight if he gets pissed enough. It's somewhere in between, but it's also hard to really articulate where that is.

High showings would be what you should call it. He is no Hulk but he does cut lose like any other hero and when that happens, all of them exceed what was shown before.

Originally posted by carver9
High showings would be what you should call it. He is no Hulk but he does cut lose like any other hero and when that happens, all of them exceed what was shown before. How true, but some people think it only applies to superman. Wow!

Originally posted by JBL
Answer this. When superman was arm wrestling CM, what made him say that they were too evenly matched? Why didn't he go all out and win? Did his so-called mental blocks block his ability to tell the truth? Every writer agrees that they are close in strength. Fans don't though. Yeah right, fans count.😂

'Cuz dynamic powers don't work the way you're trying to argue so you can dismiss them. Arm wrestling for pride isn't the same as what we've seen numerous times. He beat Doomsday to death in just a few blows(arguably one going by SUPERMAN: REBIRTH) despite being exhausted and injured, all the while Doomsday had been getting stronger the entire fight. Also, if you actually knew about Superman like you claim(you barely know shit about him), you'd know this was also a weaker era for Superman. Mongul's training was to overcome those very blocks, so kinda contradicts your own argument. And your "yeah fans count " statement further shows your ignorance of Superman.

Originally posted by JBL
Now the big question. Why does superman sunamp or sundipp? If he had dynamic strength, does the sunamp or sundipp cancel out the mental blocks because he does get stronger.? How did all-star superman get 3 times stronger and how was that scientist able to know that if superman had no base limit to his strength? There are plenty other things.

Irrelevant strawman, made all the worse by you acting like you know shit about Superman and bringing the wrong version. crylaugh Having a second way to power up does not negate his dynamic mental blocks, as anybody with a modicum of competence can understand.

Originally posted by JBL
Every character has beaten people or things that they had no business beating, but only good ole supes gets credit for having dynamic strength when he does this. Spider-Mans strength increased not one bit nor did his speed but he beat a Herald of Galactus. I'm going to say that Spider-Man dynamic strength when he cut loose put him in the class of surfer and Thor since they didn't do that to firelord. High Herald Spider-Man now.

He gets credit from people both competent AND knowledgeable about Superman because, (GASP) there's numerous in-story examples. I know!! Surprised me too that some people actually read more than Internet posts about comics!! Back to being serious, there's too many direct and indirect examples, including numerous stories based partially or entirely on Superman's powers being dynamic for anybody that isn't an idiot, ignorant, just in denial, or some combination of the three to deny. I've proven you were previously willing to BZ it, but then fear it when I challenged you. Your pathetic excuses for declining it are just that. Pathetic excuses.

Originally posted by carver9
High showings would be what you should call it. He is no Hulk but he does cut lose like any other hero and when that happens, all of them exceed what was shown before.

You're welcome to BZ me on it, but considering your numerous excuses and even outright attempts to change my Superman vs Wonder Woman BZ challenge, and refuse to actually decline the challenge, just not answer to save what little pride you have left, I know you won't. Since you're a little kitten who's all hiss, no scratch.

Originally posted by Delta1938
'Cuz dynamic powers don't work the way you're trying to argue so you can dismiss them. Arm wrestling for pride isn't the same as what we've seen numerous times. He beat Doomsday to death in just a few blows(arguably one going by SUPERMAN: REBIRTH) despite being exhausted and injured, all the while Doomsday had been getting stronger the entire fight. Also, if you actually knew about Superman like you claim(you barely know shit about him), you'd know this was also a weaker era for Superman. Mongul's training was to overcome those very blocks, so kinda contradicts your own argument. And your "yeah fans count " statement further shows your ignorance of Superman.



Irrelevant strawman, made all the worse by you acting like you know shit about Superman and bringing the wrong version. crylaugh Having a second way to power up does not negate his dynamic mental blocks, as anybody with a modicum of competence can understand.



He gets credit from people both competent AND knowledgeable about Superman because, (GASP) there's numerous in-story examples. I know!! Surprised me too that some people actually read more than Internet posts about comics!! Back to being serious, there's too many direct and indirect examples, including numerous stories based partially or entirely on Superman's powers being dynamic for anybody that isn't an idiot, ignorant, just in denial, or some combination of the three to deny. I've proven you were previously willing to BZ it, but then fear it when I challenged you. Your pathetic excuses for declining it are just that. Pathetic excuses.



You're welcome to BZ me on it, but considering your numerous excuses and even outright attempts to change my Superman vs Wonder Woman BZ challenge, and refuse to actually decline the challenge, just not answer to save what little pride you have left, I know you won't. Since you're a little kitten who's all hiss, no scratch.

Originally posted by JBL
Now the big question. Why does superman sunamp or sundipp? If he had dynamic strength, does the sunamp or sundipp cancel out the mental blocks because he does get stronger.? How did all-star superman get 3 times stronger and how was that scientist able to know that if superman had no base limit to his strength? There are plenty other things.

When he sudipped he overpowered an abstract level being.

I don't know if you work out, but does a pre supplement double or triple your bench?

It may give you enough energy you knock out your reps.

Similarly superman sundipped to get enough energy needed to make his dynamic strength reach his abstract level potential.

Sign.... If superman had dynamic strength, why does every writer agrees that he and CM are close in strength? Why did the Marvel writer clearly state that Blue Marvel is in the same strength class as superman period? There is no until he cuts loose crap. He's not going to stop hold back and change the fact that he has peers. WW, black Adam and plenty others have battled an all out superman and did just fine and they were holding back on him. End of story.

Originally posted by JBL
Sign.... If superman had dynamic strength, why does every writer agrees that he and CM are close in strength? Why did the Marvel writer clearly state that Blue Marvel is in the same strength class as superman period? There is no until he cuts loose crap. He's not going to stop hold back and change the fact that he has peers. WW, black Adam and plenty others have battled an all out superman and did just fine and they were holding back on him. End of story.

Simultaneously a circular argument and strawman. Concessions accepted. Thanks for playing, we have some wonderful consolation prizes!!

Post Crisis
Superman (All-Out) - Sun God
Superman (regular Day) - Hulk
Wonder Woman - Gladiator
Shazam/Black Adam - Thor/Beta Ray Bill
Martian Manhunter - Hercules
Aquaman - Ms. Marvel
Orion - Forgotten One

Nu52
Superman (All-Out) - Sundown
Superman (regular Day) - Sun God
Wonder Woman (God of War, No Bracers) - Sentry
Wonder Woman (God of War, Bracers on) - Gladiator
Shazam/Black Adam - Thor/Beta Ray Bill
Martian Manhunter - Hyperion
Aquaman - Namor
Orion - Count Nefaria

Pre Crisis (Bronze)
Superman (All-Out) - Odin
Superman (regular Day) - Sundown

Pre Crisis (Silver Age)
Superman (All-Out) - Galactus
Superman (regular Day) - Odin

Originally posted by Delta1938
Simultaneously a circular argument and strawman. Concessions accepted. Thanks for playing, we have some wonderful consolation prizes!! Lol. A fine way to rationalize your question dodging😁. But I will give you one more chance. Who's stronger, superman or Kurse?

To be fair, it was pretty shaky logic in your post to begin with.

Originally posted by JBL
Lol. A fine way to rationalize your question dodging😁.

By and large everything has either already been addressed, or is a red herring or strawman. It's not dodging. But you're notone who should be accusing others of dodging.

Question JBL. Has the Blue Marvel writer you're citing actually written Superman?

Originally posted by Delta1938
By and large everything has either already been addressed, or is a red herring or strawman. It's not dodging. But you're notone who should be accusing others of dodging. Answer the question. Why did superman say that he and Marvel were too evenly matched if he knew he had dynamic strength? Does mental blocks make him a liar? Quit stalling😁

Originally posted by Delta1938
Question JBL. Has the Blue Marvel writer you're citing actually written Superman? He knows the characters history. He knows about superman.

Originally posted by JBL
Answer the question. Why did superman say that he and Marvel were too evenly matched if he knew he had dynamic strength? Does mental blocks make him a liar? Quit stalling😁

Anybody with good knowledge of Superman would know how generous he is with lip service. For ****'s sake, he's compared characters he later beat down to Doomsday.

And even if it weren't it doesn't negate his powers being dynamic. You're making arguments that don't jive with the comics. If you'd read them you MIGHT understand this.

Originally posted by JBL
He knows the characters history. He knows about superman.

So I'll accept this as a concession that he had never written Superman. You arguing this doesn't mean anything. I can show you two different writers who did in fact write Superman for a few years each, including John Byrne(creator of Post-CRISIS Superman), saying Superman has dynamic powers.

Also, can you give me a link to this Blue Marvel writer quote?

Originally posted by JBL
Lol. A fine way to rationalize your question dodging😁. But I will give you one more chance. Who's stronger, superman or Kurse?

Ask him who's stronger, Superman or Superboy Prime.

Originally posted by carver9
Ask him who's stronger, Superman or Superboy Prime.

The combination of fallacy using you cheerleading fallacy using him could create a hole in the space/time continuum. Thanks assholes for dooming us all.

Who wrote Blue Marvel that said that?