Originally posted by leonidas
aww, don't be like that. lol
me:
you:
me:
changing star patterns? cool, but time manip. karla losing memory? clear time manip and evidence he can't touch anyone physically. actually he wasn't manipulating so much as crashing through perceived timelines and inadvertently altering them i guess. i'm begging you to show me the specific line that refutes my request though. prove he can punch or dodge like anyone with ACTUAL super speed....
me:
you:
me: so, yes.
reasonable like ares can turn on super speed and travel billions of times faster than light whenever he feels like it? given his history of super speed that's clearly a reasonable conclusion.
or you mean reasonable in the way that you have to actually alter the meaning of the term plank length to plank time because length doesn't fit YOUR interpretation while it fits perfectly within mine? or reasonable in that to determine there is ANY super speed conceivably evident in that scene you need to not only change the definition, but perform ludicrous calculations, assign an arbitrary time to an event outside of time AND do all this when the scene works perfectly without ever having to resort to claims of super speed at all?
yep, you've really taken my argument apart all right.
and once again you're ignoring the fact that it can't, not in the sense it was intended. not that it matters anyway since it works without your forced interpretation, but it would be like saying the writer said 2+2=4 but since that doesn't support your argument you say what he really meant was 2+2=3. nonsense is nonsensical, and in this case completely unnecessary if you view time as a line. and we know nate does see alternate/possible timelines so it's reasonable to think the author DID mean length--a tiny fraction of the timeline is where he was hiding and talking. better than assuming the author f'd up with the added bonus of no super speed required. he doesn't need to travel fast if he's outside time. all he needs to do is remove himself, see the different timelines and manipulate them. you know, like what happened.
occam's razor, circles ended.
You're the one defying Occam's Razor by trying to say that Planck length means something completely different here when it's obviously referring to time.
You're the one coming up with the outlandish theories that it is somehow referring to distance when it explicity says "between moments" in the very same instance. That it refers to time in the very same instance. That it only doesn't make sense if you ignore what is said and what happens.
As I noted before you are taking one part of the narration out of of the context of the rest of what is said. Not just that either. You're taking it out of the context of what happens, and are incapable of comprehending my points.
You're relying entirely on a confirmation bias that is clarified to not be what you think it is by what actually happens.
This isn't about author intent or what the writer thinks what happens. As the story describes it this is what it is, and you don't get to ignore parts of the explanation that you don't like.
What you're doing is censoring part of the context, and refusing to acknowledge that you're interpretation would break the entire scene.
It requires you to be purposely ignorant of the fact length can refer to time just as much as it refer to distance. More importantly, that the rest of the context clarifies that it is referring to time.
Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not nonsensical.
The Planck length is not technobabble. It's something that actually exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time
In terms of scale it is the smallest measurement of time. Nate Grey and Ares fought between those moments.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_time
Here is another reference.
It's the same as Zoom from DC. It's superspeed through time manipulation.
Endless Mike of both KMC and the OBD already calculated it too.
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/ares-vs-x-man.17878/ Originally posted by Sharivan
It is not nonsensical.
As made evident by everyone who disagrees with you in those threads.
Galan007 himself making a very convincing argument against you.
As well as Id who described it just as I did. Something that's a lot like what Zoom does. Who has read every Nate Grey appearance.
It is based on the miniscule time it would take light to travel the Planck length. Which is incredibly tiny itself, and as Endless Mike noted with the distance Nate Grey and Ares moved within this time?
I was originally trying to scale the total distance they moved during this fight, but that proved to be a bit of a pain, so I figured I could just do what Thanatoseraph did in his Zimmerman's Valley calc. This has qualifying marathon speed at 3.8889 m/s. (Of course this is a huge lowball, since both Nate and Ares are far above peak human physical speed).
The subjective time passed during this fight, keeping that lowball speed in mind, I think shouldn't have been any less than 10 seconds. (It would realistically be longer if you took into account Nate's speech before Ares arrived, but talking is a free action, whatever, and I'm being conservative here). 3.8889 m/s in 10 seconds = 38.889 meters.
This all took place in less than a planck instant, which is equal to 5.39106e-44 seconds. This translates to a speed of 7.213609197e44 m/s, or 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000c
.
Gold Saints, eat your hearts out :maybe
That's 2,406,201,025,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times the speed of light.
Originally posted by Sharivan
Id didn't change his argument. The link you provided me with had him say it was even more impressive than what Zoom does, and is beyond what speed is even capable of making it irrelevant.
Id is claiming that it is even greater than what I am claiming it is. That it cannot be matched by any kind of quantifiable speed.
Galan only begrudgingly admitted Zoom would get the first hit in, and neither agreed with you that it was not some sort of temporal speed. They still think it's what Zoom does or some equivalent.
The only difference is that Nate Grey has to turn it on or off.
Not true both Ares and Nate Grey were changing history when they fought within it, and even altering the cosmology with the creation of new constellations foretelling their battle.
Ares wasn't even inside of it at first either.
He chased after Nate, and entered the Planck length between moments.
No, they both could. They were changing history as they fought, and Ares could chase right after Nate when he was in it.
The fight itself notes that Nate and Ares changed history as a result of their fight, and Nate could drag Mimic in there with him.
http://i.imgur.com/Czgpf.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ep5zqa.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/rwnegw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r7BcF.jpg
Nate could also force Mimic back to normal time, and his fight with Ares erased part of Karla's past from existence.
He is able to interact with people all across their timelines.
Nate Grey used time manipulation to move between the Planck length between moments, and that is clearly similiar in regards to what Zoom does.
He wasn't completely hidden either. Ares was able to notice Nate when he was moving that fast, and chased after him in the Planck length between moments.
Nate Grey isn't just accessing his own timeline. He is accessing the timelines of everyone around him.
You would need something actually comparable to what Nate accomplished. Which means you need an instance where Superman acted within Planck time.
Which to my knowledge Kal-El has no instances of.
Yes, and distance divided by time equals speed. Nate and Ares were actually moving in this timeframe which gives us the kind of speed they have access to.
As noted by Endless Mike.
That's because Nate is moving so fast at that point no one can detect him. The only exception being Ares who found him, and then chased after him.
No, it makes complete sense once you understand the concepts behind this. It's not rocket science. You get speed out of distance and time.
It is not stopped.
Nate and Ares were manipulating time in such a way that they were able to operate in the Planck length between moments.
Which is something completely different than what Nate is doing here. This is temporal induced superspeed.
It's not a time-stop.
As evident by the fact Ares could chase after him.
Yes, it does.
As it has been explained to you several times but you have consistently tried to dismiss it for no good reason.
You're arguing author intent, and assuming they used it wrong with no evidence to back up your opinion.
No, it's not as simple as that.
You're arguing author intent here as well. When it's clear what is being said in the comic book itself.
That's what you're doing right now. You have nothing backing your claims, and the comic book itself disagrees with you.
This is time-manipulation induced superspeed so you can't argue they're not moving super fast because of any lack of collateral damage. It's clear that they're moving between moments in time, and influencing nearby timelines in their fight. Then there's the fact Nate Grey can forcibly drag people in and out of it
You do know that length can be used to refer to both time AND distance, right?
"The length of a day."
"The length of that bastard's vacation."
"The length of that man's suffering."
"The length of this incredible pornographic video."
By the context, and the fact "between moments" is being mentioned, it's clear that length is being used as TIME not DISTANCE here.
Anything else wouldn't make sense. Originally posted by Sharivan
As I already noted that tribe saw Ares and X-Man's fight because it was changing history, and as a result it was leaving its mark upon it.
They saw it by predicting it through the new constellations and stars being made.
If you read through the rest of my posts you would have seen that I already brought this up, and explained what was happening here.
This is because both Nate Grey and Ares are moving so fast that their fight is having an influence on all of the timelines near them.
As I already noted when they start moving this fast they shift through the timelines all around them.
Nate isn't just influencing his own timeline, and neither is Ares. They're influencing the timelines all around them.
It is explicity a speed feat, and notes that they're moving between the Planck length between moments.
As brought up before this is similiar as to what Zoom does. The difference is that it needs to be turned on and off.
It's a more powerful version of Kabuto's clock up from Kamen Rider Kabuto. That's the closest comparison I can think of.
As for comic book comparisons this is like the Flash racing the Black Flash. They're moving so fast that they're transvering time.
Originally posted by Sharivan
Yes, and that's only because of how stubborn people are.
No, they're changing history because they're moving so fast that they're transversing the nearby timelines.
I already clarified this.
That's because it does, and you have provided no convincing counter evidence. The scene itself notes that they're operating in Planck time.
Yes, and it's clarified what that means later in the fight. This is in Planck time, as noted by the story itself.
It's no different than moving so fast that you can't be seen normally. That's what "hide" means here.
Yes it does because as I already brought up length is being used to refer to time. You are refusing to use your reading comprehension by doing this.
It's not a word that has one definition, and if it was actually distance then that would change the entire scene.
It would instead be about shrinking instead of moving throughout time. Which would make no sense at all.
It's not my own definition. It's how Planck length is being used here going by the context. It makes no sense for them to be talking about distance instead time.
How does the phrase even make sense then? If it is what you you think it is it wouldn't be "between moments" it would be "between microscopic particles" or something.
As I already explained length can be used to refer to time, and it's clearly being used as time here. So, what is actually being said as extrapolated on by the context is TIME.
It makes no sense within the story itself if you say otherwise.
I am not arguing author intent. I am simply treating Planck length the same way as it's being treated by the context.
Which you are ignoring.
You're the one trying to say it's referring to distance when the scene itself notes time.
As I said before I am not arguing his intent. The story itself treats Planck length as if it's referring to time.
It is in no way treating it as distance. If the scene was it would be completely different. There would be no "between moments" or even any time manipulation at all. When we clearly see that there is.
It would be about shrinking instead.
It's not a misuse of a term. You can use length in reference to TIME, and it's clearly referring to time here.
The only way this make sense is if you ignore the entire scene, and pretend something completely different happened.
Which only works if it did not clarify that it was happening in the Planck length between moments. Which it explicity does word-for-word the very same time that this is said. You're cutting out part of the context, and are relying on a confirmation bias by ignoring everything else.
That's because this clearly involves some sort of time manipulation, and it's impossible to argue otherwise without ignoring the vast majority of the scene.
As it's already bee clarified when it says out of time? It is referring to the Planck length between moments.
Yes, it does.
I am glad we have that settled. Your concession is accepted.
Well, besides the fact Nate was able to fight Ares within the Planck length between moments. That this clearly involves time manipulation, and arguing otherwise requires ignoring the entire scene.
I already rebuked this.
Nate and Ares interact with Karla's timeline, and change history. They are able to interact with each other. Then there's the fact Nate could drag Mimic in and out of it.
The reason they were altering the past to begin was be a use how fast they were moving by moving within Planck time.
No, once again you're ignoring everything else within the scene and how their battle has a ripple effect. They're not actually going to the past or future. They are influencing in the present as a side effect of how fast they're moving by operating in Planck time.
It proves that Nate can interact with others whilst he is operating at these speeds. It's the same with Ares.
This is not stopped time. If it was Ares wouldn't have been able to chase after Nate if that was the case.
It wouldn't specify that they're moving between moments, and it wouldn't specify that they're infleucning all of the timelines around.
This is not a simple time-stop. Saying that it is would be completely dishonest.
Do you even know what acceleration is? It's how quickly you can reach a certain speed. Which both Nate and Ares can do so easily as evident by the fact that they can reach these speeds on the spot as if flipping on a switch.
That makes no sense whatsoever. You can't chase after someone who is operating in Planck time by being strong.
The method by which Nate has hidden himself here was by operating within Planck time. You can't see someone moving that fast.
Ares was, and then began operating in Planck time.
Just like Nate.
Nate and Ares both were, and as a result timelines near them were changing in order to reflect that.
No, I am saying Ares has temporal speed not just normal super-speed. This is something that has to be activated just as you would flip a switch.
As I noted this is something that has to be activated, and the fact Ares doesn't use it more often is merely a sign of his stupidity.
What are you even talking about? You mean by making afterimages or by being a blur? Nate was moving so fast that only Ares was able to notice. There's moving so fast he can't been seen already.
Afterimages are not even quantifiable, and are for the most part entirely stylistic.
You're complaining about my so called long post when you have some of the most disgustingly disorganized text walls on the forum?
Seriously, they're basically text bricks and you don't even bother to address individual points.
It is being made explicity clear that they both do this. Nate and Ares are even deciding to move in the Planck length between moments. They're deciding the speed at which they operate at, and now you're being willfully ignorant to support a phrase taken out of context.
Which by the way confirms that "out of time" is the "Planck length between moments."
What does that have to do with anything? This was after Nate dragged Mimic out of it, and after Nate got beat up by Ares.
He was also feigning defeat in order to destroy his construct body, and possess Norman Osborn.
"Fun."
Yeah, right.
Chances are you're just going to continue until I concede out of sheer boredom. Since you haven't brought up anything I haven't already taken apart.
I don't particularly care for circular debates. This forum has enough of that with abhilegend.
I have already gone over everything.
he was moderately interesting too, and i am bored as hell....