Is "Cut Content", specifically TLSRCM, to be considered Canon?

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Selenial
Often when discussing The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, unfinished episodes from Star Wars: The Clone Wars, or plot points that were never finished due to the Disney reshuffle from PT to OT eras, people fight tooth and nail that unfinished content is not to be considered canon.

The forum does not have an overarching consensus on the subject, so every debate in which this material is used devolves into a repeat of every other debate on the subject of what is considered canonical. I'd like to present the arguments of the "canon" crowd in this thread in a somewhat conclusive statement as to why they must be considered canon. Anyone who has a differing opinion may reply, debate, and help reach an overarching consensus on what this forum thinks.

I understand we'll never reach a phase where these things are not debated in threads, but hopefully this thread will help to remove clutter and bring the forum back to a point where the characters themselves can actually be debated.

First:

Cut Content as a whole.

Leland Che discussed Canon breakdown on the Star Wars: Message Boards way back when, in 2007. He had this to say:



In this he shows that Lucasarts view scripts as canon, as much as they do the final product. If this is the policy used by the Holocron for G-Canon, it's certainly the same for canon tiers below that. Especially given his words on C canon being "everything else".

This was further clarified recently, credit to Beniboybling for the quotes:





This mindset fits with Leland Che's analysis that Deleted Scenes are Canon:



So how does this fit in with The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod (Seeing as almost all other cut content is conclusively canonized with these quotes).

So far, we have heard that:
Script Notes are Canon
Deleted Scenes are Canon unless deleted for continuity reasons
Authors continue to write characters based off scenes that never made it into the public domain.

Addressing the first point, the script notes were released with the official game in a text file that anyone who bought the game can view. In said text file, it explains how every scene was originally supposed to go down. That's why when restored Content modders create scenes like Traya butchering 20 Sith Assassins, and strangling Sion, they're reading it straight from the script. The script for that scene says the following:



These modders are not creating their own story, they are telling the Story how Obsidian originally intended, which moves me on to the second bullet point.

Obsidian did not delete these scenes for continuity reasons. Every scene shown in TSLRCM fits with the overall story and does not drastically change the finished product in any way. The loopholes left by the scenes are never closed, on Malachor the party may not show up in the vanilla game, but they're never explained as being anywhere else. Bao Dur never makes it to the HK factory in the original game, but we still know that he died and HK is missing.

These scenes were cut due to time constraints, as Chris Avellone explains here:


And Feargus Urquhart explains here:



So they were forced to cut the unfinished areas of the game. In the same interview as Avellone, the lead programmer Anthony Davis says this of TSLRCM:



So, TL;DR: Obisidan supports TLSRCM as it tells Kotor II how it was supposed to be told. All additions are supported by script notes and scripts for the deleted scenes, which according to all executives at LucasArts, are considered canon.

There is absolutely no reason or logic behind not counting TSLRCM as canon, other than an attempt at underrating Kotor II characters.

TSLRCM is canon. Deal with it.

AncientPower
thumb up

Ziggystardust
Shit thread tbh

FreshestSlice
No, it's not canon, but then again, neither is KotOR II, so literally no one cares. The problem is, some of you people try to use every deleted scene, completely ignoring some weren't removed just because of time constraints.

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The problem is, some of you people try to use every deleted scene, completely ignoring some weren't removed just because of time constraints.

Quote? How do you have the ability to define what is, and is not, only not in the final game due to time constraints? Every edit is supported by the scripts that were released with the game.

Jmanghan
Who cares, its still non-canon.

It isn't part of Legends either.

Like that shit with Ahsoka fighting a Rancor?

That never happened.

Selenial
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Who cares, its still non-canon.

It isn't part of Legends either.

Like that shit with Ahsoka fighting a Rancor?

That never happened.

Ah so you're conceding.

Cool smile

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Selenial
Ah so you're conceding.

Cool smile

That makes no sense.

Selenial
Originally posted by Jmanghan
That makes no sense.

Responding to several quotes by LucasArts officials, authors and canon policies with an opinion is the equivalent of a concession.

I'm sorry you got so eviscerated, but next time just pretend you don't see the thread and carry on. It's less embarrassing smile

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Selenial
Quote? How do you have the ability to define what is, and is not, only not in the final game due to time constraints? Every edit is supported by the scripts that were released with the game.
I'm not talking about this mod, although I'll look into that later, I'm talking about certain people named AncientPower going on about how powerful Atris is because she was intended to be Darth Traya at one point.

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not talking about this mod, although I'll look into that later, I'm talking about certain people named AncientPower going on about how powerful Atris is because she was intended to be Darth Traya at one point.

Fair enough, but I can only speak for the arguments I've made. I don't actually recall the discussion you're referring to.

Do you agree that any scenes from the Game Files are Legends Canon then? mmm

FreshestSlice
Eh, on the one hand, I don't give a shit about authorial intent. On the other, I haven't played KotOR II, without TSLRCM, since 2005. I don't actually know the story without it.

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Eh, on the one hand, I don't give a shit about authorial intent. On the other, I haven't played KotOR II, without TSLRCM, since 2005. I don't actually know the story without it.

Fair enough, I understand both of those feelings.

I struggle to stomach author quotes about their characters relative to the rest of the universe, especially if we're talking direct comparisons between different characters. I do however respect an author's opinions on their own character or clarification on things they were trying to do with their material.

I guess at this point we've reached the question of what counts as "authorial intent" and what is an official statement of support. They did release their script notes, so at that point it's a source in the public domain that doesn't contradict the original game, merely go deeper.

I touched on it in the original post, unlike the Rancor incident from the TCW film (that I concede on, btw) none of the plot holes are covered up. Traya, for example, dominating Zez Kai El on Nar Shaddaa isn't covered up. We know Zez came, was stopped and never arrived... we just don't know why. It's the same with Bao Dur and the HK Factory, it's the same with Traya force choking Visas on the way into the Jedi Council Chamber on Dantooine. We just know Traya came in, and we have no knowledge on where Visas was...

It's almost like the game is a film, and the script is the novel released which expands on said film.

They don't contradict each other at all, I don't quite understand the issue people have mmm

AncientPower
Lmfao, she was powerful because she had dozens of Sith holocrons, not because she was meant to take the moniker of Traya.

FreshestSlice
That's an even more retarded argument, but then again, it's not the one you made, so okay.

AncientPower
Ah yes, if Fresh doesn't agree, everything is cancer.

Nephthys
I think it definitely depends on the content itself and the circumstances behind it. The Kotor 2 restored content seems pretty solid in that it was indeed intended to be in the game. The lead developer said that the content in the mod was the intended experience.

Other stuff is much less arguable imo.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think it definitely depends on the content itself and the circumstances behind it.
thumb up

Jmanghan
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lmfao, she was powerful because she had dozens of Sith holocrons, not because she was meant to take the moniker of Traya. Sith Holocrons = Power.

King Adas strongest Force User confirmed.

Beniboybling
Chee says that deleted scenes are canon unless they contradict existing continuity, applying that logic to KOTOR II cut content, anything that contradicts the vanilla game (i.e. Kreia ragdolling the masters instead of just draining them) should be considered non-canon, but I agree there is no logic behind considering shit non-canon when it isn't contradicted.

Problem is however deleted content, and even fan-made content, is readily used as evidence without any context given, so its important that if used it can be backed up with some proof that it would have made it into the final game.

Finally, anyone who treats TLSRCM as canon, should treat the unwritten Ahsoka story arcs as canon too. smile

Ziggystardust
I love how you think this quote runs across the board for all content, rather than a concept specific to Lucas.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally, anyone who treats TLSRCM as canon, should treat the unwritten Ahsoka story arcs as canon too. smile

Naw, that stuff was never even started. We have no idea what would have made it to the screen or how it would have been altered.

Selenial
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I love how you think this quote runs across the board for all content, rather than a concept specific to Lucas.

I'm not stating it's G-Canon though. The difference between G-Canon and C-Canon is that Lucas is saying it, yes. But if Lucas's script is still G-Canon, someone else's script should still be C-Canon. It's pretty obvious.

Ziggystardust
Umm no... Lucas is a very clear exception to the rule when it comes to authority. For example, he's the only person who's personal statements are counted as G- level canon. I'm sorry to say that Avellone, does not share this privilege.

Selenial
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Chee says that deleted scenes are canon unless they contradict existing continuity, applying that logic to KOTOR II cut content, anything that contradicts the vanilla game (i.e. Kreia ragdolling the masters instead of just draining them) should be considered non-canon, but I agree there is no logic behind considering shit non-canon when it isn't contradicted.

Problem is however deleted content, and even fan-made content, is readily used as evidence without any context given, so its important that if used it can be backed up with some proof that it would have made it into the final game.

Finally, anyone who treats TLSRCM as canon, should treat the unwritten Ahsoka story arcs as canon too. smile

Agreed, and you'll remember I opposed that feat long before you did.

Almost all other content is from the game files and not fan content, however. The reason we all know about the council feat is because me and Ant used to go through the game files looking for shit, and I noticed both versions of the trial were in the same script...

All other feats are in the script, from the Sion extract that I already posted to the party scene on Malachor.



I don't think I ever denied the TCW arcs were not canon mmm

Nephthys
I agree with Ziggy here. Lucas is obviously the exception.

Selenial
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Umm no... Lucas is a very clear exception to the rule when it comes to authority. For example, he's the only person who's personal statements are counted as G- level canon. I'm sorry to say that Avellone, does not share this privilege.

If only you could counter every quote with opinion.

Shame smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Naw, that stuff was never even started. We have no idea what would have made it to the screen or how it would have been altered. Lol no, no and no. What a terrible memory you have.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Selenial
Agreed, and you'll remember I opposed that feat long before you did.

Almost all other content is from the game files and not fan content, however. The reason we all know about the council feat is because me and Ant used to go through the game files looking for shit, and I noticed both versions of the trial were in the same script...

All other feats are in the script, from the Sion extract that I already posted to the party scene on Malachor.

I don't think I ever denied the TCW arcs were not canon mmm Yeah I'm making general statements. There is some stuff like Kreia taking on the Exile's apprentices that I have my doubts on though, as I've seen several versions of it that are not compatible with one another.

Selenial
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I'm making general statements. There is some stuff like Kreia taking on the Exile's apprentices that I have my doubts on though, as I've seen several versions of it that are not compatible with one another.

Taking on the apprentices when?

Honestly, if anyone has questions on a scene it's quite easy to find the original intention for the scene. I can try and help if you have specific examples, this thread was supposed to end the debate after all mmm

Beniboybling
On Malachor, for example we have this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4462739-j5txc.gif

Where Atton ambushes her, whereas in another version that surround her and take her on one at a time. Then she appears to incapacitate them here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4462732-j5tv4.gif

Whereas in the other version she takes them out individually, with that dialogue showing up in a different context.

Selenial
As I said, it can be deciphered using the In Game Files. They're definitely dealt with one at a time, and the gif where they are not comes from a very early draft of the malachor ending mod, that was eventually updated to the correct way.

There is definitely a section of the script that calls for Atton to attack her alone, the fight is described as "short, quick, brutal" but this is before the party is dealt with. So it fits with that scene. It appears he flees after this, to either survive or die in the end of the game in the Exile's hands.

To be fair to the modders, the script is hard to decipher in terms of sequence of events, but the events themselves are incredibly clear.

My reading of this area would be the following:
Party attacks Traya. She deals with each separately, Atton first though after attempting to ambush her.
Atton flees.
Atton bumps into Sion in the hall.
Defeats or is defeated by Sion depending on player's controls. Regroups with the Exile's party after they're freed and meets The Exile in the core.

NewGuy01
Wasn't it also a talking point that not everything added in TLSRCM was even from the scripts? As I recall, some things (like Traya ragdolling the masters individually) were just added at the whim of the modders.

DarthAnt66
In regards to KotOR II, I only consider the script canon. TLSRCM seems to add stuff in that wasn't in the script.

Selenial
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wasn't it also a talking point that not everything added in TLSRCM was even from the scripts? As I recall, some things (like Traya ragdolling the masters individually) were just added at the whim of the modders.

Yes, like I said to Beni, there are very few inconsistencies like that, and almost all have been outed as untrue. The Council scene, for example, seems to have been edited based on the haphazard words of an author during a Q&A, not on the script.

Like I said though, anyone who knows KOTOR II has been opposed to that scene since it's inception, I haven't used it since the versus series on the SWTOR boards where I discovered it not being in the game files...

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In regards to KotOR II, I only consider the script canon. TLSRCM seems to add stuff in that wasn't in the script.

What do you think about the Lead Programmer saying it was how the game was intended to be?

NewGuy01
That's really a general statement and I'm not sure it applies to to specific things like, as I mentioned before, Traya ragdolling the masters.

The script should probably be regarded as secondary canon, btw.

SunRazer
Anything ultimately found in the game files or removed because of time restraints is usable. Anything that was removed before, isn't.

TSLRCM was made in accordance to game files and what Obsidian said they wanted in there but couldn't put in.

SunRazer
By the way, the Malachor cutscene is implemented in different ways, but it's still in the script. The former one with them attacking one at a time (instead of Traya Choking three at once) is the one that appears most of the time, so that's probably the one we take.

Traya Crushing and Choking the Masters is also in the script.

Selenial
Originally posted by SunRazer
By the way, the Malachor cutscene is implemented in different ways, but it's still in the script. The former one with them attacking one at a time (instead of Traya Choking three at once) is the one that appears most of the time, so that's probably the one we take.

Traya Crushing and Choking the Masters is also in the script.

Quotes for those? Checking through the game files is a *****, but upon glancing through earlier I didn't notice either of those in it...

SunRazer
Yeah, the game files are kinda ****ed in some ways. The ordering of some of the stuff is completely screwed. Anyway:









The last one occurs several times, so it seems like each of the Masters being choked. The last two bits from the game files come in really weird places, though.

Selenial
Fair enough, didn't notice those extracts from the council members.

As for the earlier stuff, yes I already posted those. I think what Beni and I were discussing was whether they're manhandled simultaneously or not, and the fact there's dialogue in between each action tends to disagree with that portrayal.

SunRazer
Oh. Yeah, it mentions her Choking/Crushing them individually, so chances are that it's the one where Brianna runs up and attacks individually, and then gets schooled.

The others just standing there is downright stupid, though. Traya probably held them in place with the Force?

SunRazer
It's also worth mentioning that there's actually some bugs in-game that apply to the cutscenes, and TSLRCM fixes them. For instance, Kreia's scripted to throw back her hood when she attacks the Council, IIRC, but that doesn't happen in the game because of a bug. TSLRCM fixes that.

SunRazer
Just found this, with the Disciple and the Exile coming across a Jedi/Sith holocron and talking about Force Enlightenment, Battle Precognition, and other powers. It's in the game files, too, but only in TSLRCM. This might have been how we were originally supposed to learn Force Enlightenment, and how female PC's could learn Battle Precognition without the Handmaiden:



I included the spelling errors of "holocron" above.

Of course, instead of Force Enlightenment, you learn Force Crush in the DS version on Dantooine. So the Disciple explains it here, as well:

AncientPower
An incredibly valuable find Nova.

NewGuy01
It's a pretty important find, I agree. It means that some of the information from the script was also altered in the final product, which puts a question mark above it's reliability.

AncientPower
Altered as in shoehorned in by the devs, due to time constraints. That whole bizarre scene meditating with Mical before going to Telos IV makes a lot more sense now.

SunRazer
This stuff is shoehorned out, you mean.

NewGuy01
Yeah, I'm not really convinced at all that the reason they didn't key in choke animations was because they didn't have time to.

SunRazer
That entire scene is riddled with bugs. Kreia's supposed to throw back her hood and enter a "combat-ready pose", but it didn't happen.

Not sure whether the Choke stuff didn't work due to bugs or actual cuts or failures to implement it in.

AncientPower
They shoehorned in learning Enlightenment/Crush until after the Jedi Council is dead, and that was really strange because there was no reason at all to learn any actual Force techniques there. The scene afterwards on the Ebon Hawk with Mical is really weird too because he literally says he wants to talk, then says he wants to meditate and then they just sit there and the entire scene is pointless. What you, Nova, found in the script is obviously what they intended to happen, finding a holocron in the Dantooine archives and then learning things from it depending on alignment.

This confirms that the Exile's Force Enlightenment wasn't just a random game mechanic but a genuine technique she learnt from a holocron.

SunRazer
@Sel - Seems like the game files has a "short, quick, brutal" fight between Atton and Traya. No other details, though.

Selenial
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Sel - Seems like the game files has a "short, quick, brutal" fight between Atton and Traya. No other details, though.

Originally posted by Selenial
There is definitely a section of the script that calls for Atton to attack her alone, the fight is described as "short, quick, brutal"

stick out tongue

But yeh, that's quite impressive given his parity with Sion and the training he's received.

SunRazer
Haven't been up to date on this thread smile

Jmanghan
So, cut content in general...?

Battlefront 3 and other cinematics from deleed games? (This is the best thread to talk about it in)

carthage
Nova reaching harder than Mr. Fantastic to wank Traya's crusty hairy old snatch

darthbane77
I personally consider TSLRCM to be canon, for the reasons given in the OP. I generally don't use those scenes in debates because most don't view it as canon though.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by carthage
Nova reaching harder than Mr. Fantastic to wank Traya's crusty hairy old snatch Thats not fair, I'm sure she washes it.

carthage
Probably. I guess she uses collected buckets of Sunrazer's saliva to do it. It makes sense

S_W_LeGenD
I wonder why the developers (i.e. Obsidian) did not patch the game officially. Why fans had to do it... mmm

FreshestSlice
You literally just have to use Google to find the answer. It would have taken less time than it took to make the above post. LucasArts didn't let them.

AncientPower
Xbox servers, literally just because of Xbox servers.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by AncientPower
Xbox servers, literally just because of Xbox servers. It was primarily released on the PC, I'm pretty sure thats where the key focus was going.

I'm sure Xbox owners would be pissed, but... honestly who cares.

AncientPower
Nope, internally Microsoft complained that a full game patch was far too large for their Xbox servers to handle. * insert shitty legal reasons* LucasArts blocked the patch in its entirety thereafter. I remember reading about that shit storm on the lucasarts forums.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

One of the reasons I am not a fan of consoles and Microsoft.

FreshestSlice
A reason that hasn't been true for over a decade?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Selenial
Leland Che discussed Canon breakdown on the Star Wars: Message Boards way back when, in 2007. He had this to say:

Originally posted by Selenial
In this he shows that Lucasarts view scripts as canon, as much as they do the final product. If this is the policy used by the Holocron for G-Canon, it's certainly the same for canon tiers below that. Especially given his words on C canon being "everything else".
Umm... maybe you should've read further into the canon policy...



Credit to Mythlord for the quote

Selenial
Which mentions nothing about cut content that has been officially released. I.E. cut content left in a freely accessible format, or release via steam.

Emperordmb
Really? I didn't see any part of that quote specifying that that rule only applied to cut content unofficially released.

MythLord
Kek, now that's just grasping at straws.

That's still cut-content/cancelled part of a game. The fact that it's an accessable mod of the game means absolutely nothing.

SunRazer
Just why are we debating this again? Dark side options are also non-canon but are considered usable (or at least worth taking into account) on the grounds of alignment with author intent.

I thought it was widely held that cut content wasn't considered canon, but that it could still be used as material in a debate?

Selenial
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Really? I didn't see any part of that quote specifying that that rule only applied to cut content unofficially released.

And you didn't see any part of the rule that clarifies any kind of cut content is non canon.

TCW unaired episodes are "cut content" but are canon to the storyline of the universe as soon as officially released, and as long as they're not contradicted. The same is said of deleted scenes in the Star Wars trilogies.

Extrapolating that logic to the lower tiers yields exactly what I said during this whole thread, nice try though.

Selenial
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just why are we debating this again? Dark side options are also non-canon but are considered usable (or at least worth taking into account) on the grounds of alignment with author intent.

Also a fair point. thumb up

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just why are we debating this again?
Wollf found the quote and showed it to me, If found it relevant to the thread.
Originally posted by Selenial
And you didn't see any part of the rule that clarifies any kind of cut content is non canon.
The KOTOR II cut content falls under the umbrella "cut content." Is there anything in that statement that excludes certain types of cut content from the umbrella of cut content?

Originally posted by Selenial
TCW unaired episodes are "cut content" but are canon to the storyline of the universe as soon as officially released, and as long as they're not contradicted.
That's disney's canon policy, you can't extrapolate that to Legends since the two continuities follow separate rules.

Originally posted by Selenial
The same is said of deleted scenes in the Star Wars trilogies.

Extrapolating that logic to the lower tiers yields exactly what I said during this whole thread
Except you haven't provided any evidence for why that logic should apply to other tiers other than "because I say so."

There are two fundamental problems with extrapolating that logic to lower tiers:
1. The G-canon tier is special because that content literally came from the word of god as far as Legends canon was concerned, so it's extremely obvious why special rules would apply to content directly connected to Lucas that don't apply to other content. Likewise I haven't seen the argument for why the content of game developers should be treated with the same logic as the content of the man who had the final say over everything in Star Wars at the time.
2. If we applied the logic for G-canon to every lower tier, then that would mean any unpublished internal notes or statements from creators of C-canon material would also be C-canon, which is an absolutely ridiculous thread to pull, and is only more evidence for why its absolutely ridiculous to baselessly argue the same standards for G-canon can be extrapolated to every other tier of canon.

Originally posted by Selenial
nice try though.
Not really much of a try, just common sense.

I pulled out a quote saying that "cut content" is non-canon, whereas you're arguing the blanket statement "cut content" only refers to certain types of cut content even though that isn't specified in the quote I provided at all.

You're argument hinges on you trying to apply Disney Storyboard Canon policy to the Legends continuity... which I shouldn't even have to try and counter because that's a rule for a separate continuity, and you trying to argue the same rules that apply to content directly connected to the man who owned and had final say over the legends continuity also apply to lower levels of canon without any evidence other than "because I say so," and I've already provided an example as to why applying G-canon logic to lower levels of canon doesn't work since that would mean unpublished production notes of C-canon creators are also C-canon, which you have even admitted isn't the case.

Your argument really has no leg to stand on.

Now I suspect that you won't give up on this argument, and will instead shift gears to "Well certain elements of G-canon (such as the unpublished internal notes and creator statements) don't apply to lower canon, but I can still claim that other elements of G-canon (such as cut content) apply to lower levels of canon even though I don't have any direct evidence suggesting that that specific logic applies to lower tiers whereas other logic demonstrably doesn't."

If you're going to try and argue that point than good luck because you're going to need it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just why are we debating this again? Dark side options are also non-canon but are considered usable (or at least worth taking into account) on the grounds of alignment with author intent.

I thought it was widely held that cut content wasn't considered canon, but that it could still be used as material in a debate? Cause Traya > Bane triggers DMB or something. sad

But yeah I agree with Sel, arguably this cut content has been restored to the game and is no longer "cut."

Azronger
But it was restored to the game by fans. The devs were grateful, but that hardly makes it canon.

Beniboybling
The mod is officially supported tho.

MythLord
But it's still referred to as "cut-content". It's been erased from the game for a reason, whatever that reason may be, hence rendered null and void.

Beniboybling
No it's referred to as "restored content"

https://www.aspyr.com/games/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii-restored-content-mod

(In particular note the strap line: "Play Knights of the Old Republic II the way it was intended to be played!"wink

Losur.

MythLord
They restored the cut-content in a non-canon mod. It's about as legit as an Battlefront II mods. :/

Beniboybling
They are nothing alike. laughing out loud

MythLord
In terms of canonicity? They are. Both are mods made by the fans implemented into the games; the only difference is in KOTOR II's case, the creators of the game were grateful 'cause their original idea was now playable, but the original idea doesn't matter with what we've actually got... Unless, of course, you think Dooku is actually female, Han Solo is a fish-man, Rey's real name is Kira, Maul can choke Sidious, etc.

Beniboybling
laughing

Enough with the bullshit Myth, the creators weren't just "grateful" nor was content made by the fans, but by the developers, and it was restored to the game as an officially supported mod by Aspry working in partnership with Lucasfilm, branded as the finished product.

I see no reason to distinguish between it and the video game proper, and certainly not to make these bullshit equivalencies between examples where the content was not intended to make the final cut, or had nothing to do with the original product in the first place. Rofl.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Enough with the bullshit Myth, the creators weren't just "grateful" nor was content made by the fans, but by the developers, and it was restored to the game as an officially released mod by Aspry working in partnership with Lucasfilm, branded as the finished product.
Can you provide some details?

This is good, if true.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
laughing

Enough with the bullshit Myth, the creators weren't just "grateful" nor was content made by the fans, but by the developers, and it was restored to the game as an officially released mod by Aspry working in partnership with Lucasfilm, branded as the finished product.

I see no reason to distinguish between it and the video game proper, and certainly not to make these bullshit equivalencies between examples where the content was not intended to make the final cut, or had nothing to do with the official product in the first place. Rofl.

Is this true? If so, I will accept it.

Beniboybling
http://steamcommunity.com/games/208580/announcements/detail/145589580847766181

Azronger
Canon it is thumb up

Beniboybling
And the mod on their website in case people missed it:

https://www.aspyr.com/games/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii-restored-content-mod

Selenial
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The KOTOR II cut content falls under the umbrella "cut content." Is there anything in that statement that excludes certain types of cut content from the umbrella of cut content?
Revenge of the Sith deleted scenes fall under "cut content", they're still supposed to be canon where they are not directly contradicted by the films.


In regards to TCW sure, that's Disney's canon. In regards to the films and everything else though, that was equally part of the old canon.



George Lucas's comments were seen as gospel because he had direct control over canon. If he disagreed with anything, or said anything, people could not overrule him because he had the final word on all canon matters. That's why he was treated as gospel. Writers for various parts of canon however were given free reign over their prospective projects. Obisidan were green-lit to make their entire script into canon. I agree that George has different rules to the writers, but when a script is green-lit to become canon, there is no difference other than which 'tier' of legends canon it falls into.

So yes, you're right in point two, you cannot extrapolate it into notes or statements, because the individuals themselves have no power over canon until their scripts are approved. Once a script is approved however, arbitrary cuts due to time constrains should be treated in precisely the same way as scenes cut due to film length worries.

Although this is all irrelevant now that Beni's posted the quote from Aspyr, as I said, the cut content has been officially released. I guess the revelation that it's now called 'restored content' can end your ridiculous attempt at a crusade based on undeniably vague wording from one version of the canon guidelines smile

S W LeGenD
Part of what makes something canon in a shared universe is whether it possesses legitamacy in its role of potentially influencing canon works from other creators in that shared universe, which something that isn't technically canon won't necessarily possess, regardless of whether it matches the intentions of its own creators.

S W LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just why are we debating this again? Dark side options are also non-canon but are considered usable (or at least worth taking into account) on the grounds of alignment with author intent.

My view has always been that what you're technically seeing in a game like KOTOR2 is a fully canon set of possible worlds, where the primary LS path simply happens to correspond to the actual timeline explored in the rest of canon.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And the mod on their website in case people missed it:

https://www.aspyr.com/games/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii-restored-content-mod
Looks like we can consider it. thumb up

Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
:
Enough with the bullshit Myth, the creators weren't just "grateful" nor was content made by the fans, but by the developers, and it was restored to the game as an officially supported mod by Aspry working in partnership with Lucasfilm, branded as the finished product.



This is good enough for me tbh. thumb up

ares834
Nope.

Petrus
Why not?

ares834

Beniboybling
It was restored you clown. uhuh

carthage
Malgus can ragdoll strike teams confirmed

ares834
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was restored you clown. uhuh

By fans. smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ares834
By fans. smile No. https://imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/709352515.gif

ares834

Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
laughing

Enough with the bullshit Myth, the creators weren't just "grateful" nor was content made by the fans, but by the developers, and it was restored to the game as an officially supported mod by Aspry working in partnership with Lucasfilm, branded as the finished product.


Ares, are you completely ignoring this, or..?

ares834

Petrus
"working in partnership with LucasFilm"

Still not good enough for you?

ares834
Umm... No. That's in reference to the game not the mod.

Petrus
It seems like Beni was saying they were in partnership with Aspry, the creators of the mod...

ares834
Aspyr didn't create the mod. They just worked with the creators of the mod to ensure it would be up on the steam workshop and be compatible with their version of the game.

Petrus
Yeah I meant it as Aspry *and the creators of the mod.

Beniboybling
The activities Bethesda has zero relevance to SW canon, that should be obvious. erm

On the other hand if its officially endorsed by Lucasfilm, it's canon. Bye.

ares834

Selenial
Indeed, as soon as Lucasarts promote a release of a restored version of the game, and begin to make money off the restoration, its canon.

It's no different to a re-release, or an expanded edition of a sourcebook. The added content is still canon, you ****ing clown yes

Beniboybling
Under Infinities or some such, yeah, and Aspyr are working in partnership with Lucasfilm & Disney i.e. an official capacity, so they have their mandate. sad

ares834

Beniboybling
Ares, when did you start being so wrong. sad

Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ares, when did you start being so wrong. sad

ares834
Originally posted by Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ares, when did you start being so wrong. sad

Funny coming from you when you've already shown you have no clue what you are talking about.

Petrus
Kek, I've shown shit. I literally forgot to write the 'and'.

It's pretty clear the collaboration with LucasFilm should be more than enough to demonstrate its validity, why don't you widen your narrow view on this particular matter at least a bit? smile

ares834
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ares, when did you start being so wrong. sad

Then it should be easy to show me where Lucasarts released the game with the restored content and not just the normal game.

ares834

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ares834
Then it should be easy to show me where Lucasarts released the game with the restored content and not just the normal game. I don't intend to be distracted by red herrings. erm

Petrus
The fact that the content of the mod is actually endorsed and supported by Lucasfilm is a literal extension of the act of giving official support to the developers of the mod. What you're asking for/expecting is completely unrealistic and actually unnecessary and irrelevant. If Lucasfilm supports this particular mod openly - which actually is what the game was intended to be - it's clear-cut that we can consider it valid.

Geistalt
Atton > Sion.

Hooray.

This is teh biggust Star Wers breakthru since TESB.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Petrus
The fact that the content of the mod is actually endorsed and supported by Lucasfilm is a literal extension of the act of giving official support to the developers of the mod. What you're asking for/expecting is completely unrealistic and actually unnecessary and irrelevant. If Lucasfilm supports this particular mod openly - which actually is what the game was intended to be - it's clear-cut that we can consider it valid. Exactly.

Like I said Aspyr are working in partnership with LucasArts & Disney, and worked in partnership to deliver this update. Which means everything in it is sanctioned by those partners. The update included official support for TSLRCM, branded as the intended final product of the game, which means TSLRCM is officially sanctioned by Lucasfilm, ergo it is canon. thumb up

ares834
Originally posted by Petrus
The fact that the content of the mod is actually endorsed and supported by Lucasfilm is a literal extension of the act of giving official support to the developers of the mod. What you're asking for/expecting is completely unrealistic and actually unnecessary and irrelevant. If Lucasfilm supports this particular mod openly - which actually is what the game was intended to be - it's clear-cut that we can consider it valid.

You still seem confused. Lucasfilm has not supported the developers of the mod.

Beniboybling
I think you are the one confused here. erm

ares834
So Lucasfilm worked directly with the developers of the mod? You have proof I hope.

Beniboybling
Lol. Can we stop with the stupid questions and nonsense evasions?

Lucasfilm/Lucasarts are not games developers. They do not operate in that capacity, and they do not have to work directly with the developers to be capable of supporting the mod, it having already been explained repeatedly how that is what they are doing.

Emperordmb
He's not asking stupid questions or using nonsense evasions, he's asking for evidence for the claim you are making you ****ing dipshit.

Beniboybling
I never claimed Lucasfilm worked directly with the developers calm down. laughing out loud

ares834
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol. Can we stop with the stupid questions and nonsense evasions?

Lucasfilm/Lucasarts are not games developers. They do not operate in that capacity, and they do not have to work directly with the developers to be capable of supporting the mod, it having already been explained repeatedly how that is what they are doing.

Then quit responding to my posts when they're clearly not directed to you.

Beniboybling
What? Who are you talking to then? haermm

ares834
I was literally quoting Petrus... laughing out loud

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ares834
So Lucasfilm worked directly with the developers of the mod? You have proof I hope. Nope, pretty much sure question was directed at me. mmm

Not that it matters, he is making the same point. So I'm unsure of why you feel the need to tip toe around me.

ares834
The questions was, but only after you responded to a post directed to Petrus. yes

Beniboybling
OK. Well I guess I'll just sit here then with your L, feel free to take it any time. smile

ares834
Nah, you can keep it.

SunRazer
Canon or not, they're valid to take into account. Pointless debate.

S W LeGenD
Originally posted by Petrus
The fact that the content of the mod is actually endorsed and supported by Lucasfilm is a literal extension of the act of giving official support to the developers of the mod. What you're asking for/expecting is completely unrealistic and actually unnecessary and irrelevant. If Lucasfilm supports this particular mod openly - which actually is what the game was intended to be - it's clear-cut that we can consider it valid.

This really isn't necessarily true at all. It's entirely possible that Lucasfilm were happy for fans to get to see how the game was originally fully intended to be, and endorsed the mod with that end in mind, without necessarily wanting it to be the case that the mod be considered the definitive version of the game's story.

Beniboybling
If it's officially sanctioned it's canon as per Leland Chee. So the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate such an exception.

S W LeGenD
Depends what you mean when you say it's been officially sanctioned. Short of an official statement or the game being re-released with the old game files being overwritten by the mod, you can't say it's technically canon, no matter how well the mod is supported.

Beniboybling
I mean it's been approved in an official capacity, which is sufficient.

S W LeGenD
Approved in what sense?

Beniboybling
In the sense that it was supported as an official mod/restored content for the game, yeah.

S W LeGenD
Which could be for many reasons; doesn't necessarily mean that the mod's canon.

Selenial
Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Which could be for many reasons; doesn't necessarily mean that the mod's canon.

Re-read the first post and tell me if you still think that mmm

Petrus
Oh my God, people. You're being ridiculously strict with this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If it's officially sanctioned it's canon as per Leland Chee. So the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate such an exception.

This.

And even if you refuse to accept this for whatever stupid reason, the fact that Lucasfilm endorsed and supported the implementation of this specific mod should be good enough in order for us to use the material in a debate and consider it at the very least valid. Don't be such tight-asses.

And Ares, I said that Lucasfilm supporting the application of this mod to the game implies an extremely obvious extension of support to the modders themselves. Or what, are you seriously arguing that Lucasfilm supports and endorses the adding of the mod to the game but not the modders themselves? erm

cs_zoltan
So was the DLC where Lord Starkiller whooped Force Ghost Ben laughing out loud

Petrus
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So was the DLC where Lord Starkiller whooped Force Ghost Ben laughing out loud

Not even close, considering Starkiller whooping the Force Ghost of Ben isn't Legends canon, whereas this is restored content that was originally intended to be a part of the game being officially endorsed by Lucasfilm. Starkiller destroying Ben is simply a non-canon part of the game, lol.

Emperordmb
Yeah if the modded version is not part "the game proper" I see no reason why it should be treated as such.

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