What if Maul killed Kanan?

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Jmanghan
As the title says.

Zenwolf
He probably gets Ezra as his apprentice when he snaps in rage and tries to kill him, telling him to use his anger, blah, blah and so forth. Then when he beats him down, he tells Ezra he can train him to be better, strong, more powerful etc and thus he gets him as his apprentice.

ILS
Yeah, Ezra would fall, and no doubt spend the next decade scheming of ways to kill Maul while learning everything he can from him, before finally doing him in with a banana peel or something.

Darth Abonis
Ezra would've tried to avenge him

Zenwolf
They can be rather dangerous Swords tbh.

Kurk
I hope Kanan dies when he gets sucked out into space. Obviously plot armor won't allow it of course. If Kanan died, Maul would just kill Ahsoka and tell Ezra that they died from Vader. Then he and his apprentice would rule the galaxy

chingchangwalla
Then I'd be ****ing happy. Maul just guts Kanan, then Ezra, then Ashoka and the rest of the Ghost crew. Proceeds to fight Vader in a stalemate or Vader narrowly kills him in a massive duel

|King Joker|
There might have been an Ahsoka / Maul / Vader three-way duel, tbh.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by |King Joker|
There might have been an Ahsoka / Maul / Vader three-way duel, tbh.
Lol throw Vos in it for the hell of it tbh. Turn it into a fourway cluster****.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Lol throw Vos in it for the hell of it tbh. Turn it into a fourway cluster****. Hopefully Vos would die first

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Hopefully Vos would die first
actually, I'd love that fight.

|King Joker|
Too bad everyone in that hypothetical four-way is Vos's superior in telekinesis, Vos can't focus solely on Ahsoka, and Ahsoka doesn't have Dooku's shortcomings that led to him being defeated by Vos, and Christie Golden wouldn't be writing the fight. smile

chingchangwalla
Haha. I believe DD Vos > Ashoka but I do respect your opinion. Vos can still contend with anyone nonetheless.

|King Joker|
ty and agreed

darthbane77
Ezra would have followed Maul and been trained as a Dark Side user. Become a new potential threat to Vader and Sidious, then Sidious would double his efforts to find Maul, followed by the capture and execution of Maul and Ezra.

chingchangwalla
Ezra won't be a threat to Sheev.

Darth Thor
Maul must think that him plus a fully trained Ezra would be a threat to Vader at least.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul must think that him plus a fully trained Ezra would be a threat to Vader at least. Maul is already a threat to Vader but he'd like an apprentice. He always wanted his brother who was always the weak link. You simply don't understand the history of the character. laughing out loud

FreshestSlice
I'm glad you told us, quan. Nothing on screen was going to.

quanchi112
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm glad you told us, quan. Nothing on screen was going to. I am here to lead the sheep who have wandered astray.

McP
I was curious since long time, why Maul attacked Kanan and Ahsoka. He was aware of Vader's presence, and even if he would killed them both, still, he would be unable to stop Vader from taking holocron/killing Ezra. He screwed that. He should let them to take Vader, and then he could try to take Ezra/use that holocron againt them all.

So my answer is, that he would be killed by Vader short after, or he would run and possibly lost thr rest of his faith for his revenge.

Darth Thor
His plan was to use the Sith Temple WMD against the Empire. Ezra he just stumbled across and thought would make him a good apprentice, in case his plan fails and just to have a potentially powerful apprentice.

He tried to kill Kanan and Ahsoka so it would be easier to take Ezra away. He had no intention of facing Vader alone and dying though.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
His plan was to use the Sith Temple WMD against the Empire. Ezra he just stumbled across and thought would make him a good apprentice, in case his plan fails and just to have a potentially powerful apprentice.

He tried to kill Kanan and Ahsoka so it would be easier to take Ezra away. He had no intention of facing Vader alone and dying though. So you believe he wanted to take the least of the three to take out Vader but you hypocorically says he's so above him. How can that be true since Ezra is so lower tier ? Do you ever think of the mental gymnastics you seek to use before you actually do it.

Petrus
Ezra would be enraged and he would seek out Maul to kill him against the wishes of the Ghost crew. When he finds Maul, they'll duel and Maul will defeat him, subdue him and force him to turn to the dark side by using his anger towards him, etc.

Eventually, Sidious would find out Maul acquired a new apprentice and would send Vader to hunt them down until he finds and kills them. With an Ezra fully submerged in the dark side and trained ferociously by Maul, the pair would manage to defeat Vader and severely injure/kill him.

After this, Sidious would choose to take matters into his own hands, track them down and kill them, ending the 'threat'.

Darth Thor
Yes Maul needs an Apprentice so they can challenge Vader together. But even if he succeeded, Not sure what he's do about Sidious.

Kurk
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes Maul needs an Apprentice so they can challenge Vader together. But even if he succeeded, Not sure what he's do about Sidious.
Maul is a very intelligent sith with a high IQ; he will figure it out.

Petrus
Originally posted by Kurk
Maul is a very intelligent sith with a high IQ; he will figure it out.

lmao, as if he's more intelligent than Sidious.

chingchangwalla
I wish he wasn't intelligent tbh... :/

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
lmao, as if he's more intelligent than Sidious. He survived with a lot less than Palpatine. In th manner in which Palpatone was killed was pretty idiotic considering the power Palpatine held in his grasp. He left it all to chance to recruit Luke. What a schmuck.

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
He survived with a lot less than Palpatine. In th manner in which Palpatone was killed was pretty idiotic considering the power Palpatine held in his grasp. He left it all to chance to recruit Luke. What a schmuck.

Palpatine is a goddamn genius mastermind and Maul doesn't compare in any way. erm

chingchangwalla
Combative intelligence Maul > Sidious tho. He took Qui-Gon apart :/ Sidious is a psycho

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
Palpatine is a goddamn genius mastermind and Maul doesn't compare in any way. erm He most certainly does. Palpatine was saved (by Anakin against Windu) and in the right position to orchestrate this. Maul with his brother amassed enough power to challenge Sidious. Palpatine was an unknown dark lord and had the Jedi murderd with his underling and thousands of clone troopers.

Maul survived his fall despite being cut in half did Sidious survive his fall ?

https://media.giphy.com/media/bI0pc31kAbUVG/giphy.gif

Trocity
Cringe.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
Maul is a very intelligent sith with a high IQ; he will figure it out.


Maybe he let Vader kill so he could kill Palpatine..

Genius

Darth Thor
^ Let Vader Live so he could kill Palpatine.

Beniboybling
Nah he let Vader kill him, or at least he will. smile

Darth Thor
^ So he could become more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine? Dope!

Wait...

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
He most certainly does. Palpatine was saved (by Anakin against Windu) and in the right position to orchestrate this.

And Maul along with Savage were outdueled by TCW Kenobi in the right situation, something that would never happen to Sidious. Also, Sidious bested both in combat 2v1 and he wasn't even being pushed that hard... Sidious decimated the B-Team and was only defeated by Windu due to his Vaapad and Shatterpoint advantages. And chances are he wouldn't perform as well against him again. Either way, Windu > Maul so I don't see your point.



lel, they didn't amass nearly enough power to actually challenge Sidious. They were beginning to have a respectable power base and feared followers, even enough that they indeed attracted his attention. Attracting his attention, however, doesn't mean they were already on Sidious' level. And nothing actually indicates as much, considering he had the whole Republic and CIS armies under his grasp.

Palpatine murdering thousands of Jedi via Vader and Clones means very little in regards to his power and skill.



http://media.tumblr.com/ebee2d5ee98d0ecc44913d757d6572e1/tumblr_inline_moqvsdeiTq1qz4rgp.gif

Petrus
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Combative intelligence Maul > Sidious tho.

You're joking, right?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
And Maul along with Savage were outdueled by TCW Kenobi in the right situation, something that would never happen to Sidious. Also, Sidious bested both in combat 2v1 and he wasn't even being pushed that hard... Sidious decimated the B-Team and was only defeated by Windu due to his Vaapad and Shatterpoint advantages. And chances are he wouldn't perform as well against him again. Either way, Windu > Maul so I don't see your point.



lel, they didn't amass nearly enough power to actually challenge Sidious. They were beginning to have a respectable power base and feared followers, even enough that they indeed attracted his attention. Attracting his attention, however, doesn't mean they were already on Sidious' level. And nothing actually indicates as much, considering he had the whole Republic and CIS armies under his grasp.

Palpatine murdering thousands of Jedi via Vader and Clones means very little in regards to his power and skill.



http://media.tumblr.com/ebee2d5ee98d0ecc44913d757d6572e1/tumblr_inline_moqvsdeiTq1qz4rgp.gif Maul was never out dueled by Kenobi. Maul met every strike with a parry and strike of his own. His brother became a liability when he was injured so Maul force pushed him out of the area. This wasn't the first time Maul used a force push at a critical time to gain an advantage. Sidious has more force power than either of them so of course that wouldn't occur to him. A superior force knowledge/power doesn't necessarily mean he can use his get out of jail free card when against similarly powered individuals. We see him beaten by Windu. That didn't happen to Maul. We also see him try to flee a fair fight against a peer in Yoda after just one force push.

Sidious classified as him a rival so in a relatively short time Maul without the benefit of acting in secret as a senator no less. Pretty exceptional feat for Maul.

It means he had a massive army so it was easier for him to achieve his goals. The Jedi were a bunch of dopes save Windu. What Mauk achieved he did with he and his brother alone. He did it through determination and sheer will unlike Palpatine who manipulates his enemies under a false guise. That's a lot easier and he had decades to achieve his power.

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Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul was never out dueled by Kenobi. Maul met every strike with a parry and strike of his own. His brother became a liability when he was injured so Maul force pushed him out of the area. This wasn't the first time Maul used a force push at a critical time to gain an advantage. Sidious has more force power than either of them so of course that wouldn't occur to him. A superior force knowledge/power doesn't necessarily mean he can use his get out of jail free card when against similarly powered individuals. We see him beaten by Windu. That didn't happen to Maul. We also see him try to flee a fair fight against a peer in Yoda after just one force push.

Actually, that's not how it goes. When the duel begins, Kenobi is the one who meets every strike the brothers launch at him and answers back ferociously, to the point that he managed to kick Maul back, effectively outdueling him. And yeah, Savage was injured during the fight. By Kenobi. Fighting both Sith simultaneously. Maul only Force pushed Kenobi away when the fight ends. This actually helps my argument.

Yeah, Windu beating Sidious is irrelevant because Windu > Maul.

Sidious fleeing Yoda but doing the exact opposite against Maul and Savage should be clear enough as to where Maul stands in comparison to Sidious.



Yes, Maul was becoming increasingly dangerous with all the support he was gaining from several criminal factions. That doesn't mean it was enough to even contend with Sidious at the time he decided to deal with Maul and Savage, it just means that eventually he might acquire enough military power to pose a significant threat. This much is obvious simply when you consider Sidious had both the Republic and CIS armies under his command, both of which are infinitely superior to whatever Maul had.

And Palpatine's path to power isn't by any means easier than Maul's, it's actually the opposite. Anyone powerful enough can just come by a crime lord's base, threaten him, kill him or turn him and his followers into pawns. The fact that he acquired his power through deceptive and manipulative means doesn't make it less impressive at all. His plan was masterfully executed and it gave him absolute control over the whole galaxy. Maul had a few criminal factions and Mandalore. thumb up

What Sidious did is infinitely more impressive to the point where it doesn't even compare.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-06-2015/hg2nPV.gif

Kurk
Originally posted by Petrus
lmao, as if he's more intelligent than Sidious.
could Sidious build a functional pair of legs out of a heap of junk while legless?

Petrus
lel, you troll.

Kurk
Originally posted by Petrus
lel, you troll.
not at all smile

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
Actually, that's not how it goes. When the duel begins, Kenobi is the one who meets every strike the brothers launch at him and answers back ferociously, to the point that he managed to kick Maul back, effectively outdueling him. And yeah, Savage was injured during the fight. By Kenobi. Fighting both Sith simultaneously. Maul only Force pushed Kenobi away when the fight ends. This actually helps my argument.

Yeah, Windu beating Sidious is irrelevant because Windu > Maul.

Sidious fleeing Yoda but doing the exact opposite against Maul and Savage should be clear enough as to where Maul stands in comparison to Sidious.



Yes, Maul was becoming increasingly dangerous with all the support he was gaining from several criminal factions. That doesn't mean it was enough to even contend with Sidious at the time he decided to deal with Maul and Savage, it just means that eventually he might acquire enough military power to pose a significant threat. This much is obvious simply when you consider Sidious had both the Republic and CIS armies under his command, both of which are infinitely superior to whatever Maul had.

And Palpatine's path to power isn't by any means easier than Maul's, it's actually the opposite. Anyone powerful enough can just come by a crime lord's base, threaten him, kill him or turn him and his followers into pawns. The fact that he acquired his power through deceptive and manipulative means doesn't make it less impressive at all. His plan was masterfully executed and it gave him absolute control over the whole galaxy. Maul had a few criminal factions and Mandalore. thumb up

What Sidious did is infinitely more impressive to the point where it doesn't even compare.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-06-2015/hg2nPV.gif Your double standards are despicable. Maul also kicked Sidious back in their duel so by your unbelievable trolling he was out dueling Sidious with that kick. A force push Bfr somehow is less than a kick which did what to stop Maul from attacking ?


I said savage was injured because he was less than Kenobi. Maul defeated Opress by himself in under thirty seconds. Quit with your excuses as each character useless whatever abilities they have it doesn't excuse Palpatine losing.


I never said Maul was superior to Palpatine in a duel I said he was better with his combat acumen whereas Sidious is more force powerful.

Maul went to each criminal syndicate and personally scared them into submission with the manipulation of Pre Vizsla. According to Sidious it was. I didn't see with the factions they had it was enough to win but in the short time Maul amassed power he rose to challenge a galactic power. That's very impressive considering what resources Maul had at the time.

Palpatine's circumstances were different and he had the opportunity to achieve this under their noses. Maul never held the same opportunity and he achieved this after the Jedi and Sidious both were aware of his continued existence. Maul manipulated those who were aware of who and what he was. Palpatine was unable to manipulate Luke and lost his own apprentice with decades worth of service in the blink of an eye showing a huge error in judgment.


What Maul achieve with the little to no resources he had available at the time is ten times as impressive as what Sidious achieved without opposition and in decades.



http://i.imgur.com/ktjGMYP.gif

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
Your double standards are despicable. Maul also kicked Sidious back in their duel so by your unbelievable trolling he was out dueling Sidious with that kick. A force push Bfr somehow is less than a kick which did what to stop Maul from attacking ?

The difference is that this was Sidious vs. two opponents, and one of them managed to land a kick. He was also playing around. It's easy to tell he wasn't even giving it his best effort against the pair, and this is clear because had he wanted to, he would've ended the fight with the Force way sooner. In the fight we're discussing it's Kenobi vs. two opponents, and he's the one who lands a kick, and afterwards slices Savage's arm off and holds both of them off simultaneously. As opposed to Sidious, these two weren't playing around and were actually trying quite hard to defeat Kenobi.

You seem to be forgetting Maul pushed Kenobi away when the fight was already over, so I don't see how it is even relevant.




lel, it's just the truth, and these advantages were key for him to defeat Sidious. You should quit ignoring that Windu > Maul, so Windu defeating Palpatine is also irrelevant.




Yeah, except he's not better than Sidious in anything.



I'm not saying it wasn't impressive, I agree that it was. But it sure as hell wasn't nearly as impressive as Palpatine's feat.



If you want to talk about error in judgment, Maul's error in judgment caused him his legs.

And yes, of course the circumstances were different for both characters, but Sidious' accomplishments regardless of that are just on a different league to Maul's. That's just how it is, and it is plainly obvious.

Palpatine not being able to manipulate Luke speaks more of Luke's incredible willpower and commitment to the light, tbh.




As I said before, anyone powerful enough would've been able to accomplish what Maul accomplished.

What Sidious did was necessary in order to achieve absolute galactic domination, and you're heavily underestimating it. It took a very impressive degree of political knowledge, an extremely high IQ to calculate variables, numbers and possibilities correctly, enough power to conceal your identity from several Jedi standing 1 meter away from you, an uncanny ability to lead a double life without being in danger of exposure, among other very difficult things. It really just doesn't compare.





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Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
could Sidious build a functional pair of legs out of a heap of junk while legless?


If not, he'd just use Maul's legs.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
The difference is that this was Sidious vs. two opponents, and one of them managed to land a kick. He was also playing around. It's easy to tell he wasn't even giving it his best effort against the pair, and this is clear because had he wanted to, he would've ended the fight with the Force way sooner. In the fight we're discussing it's Kenobi vs. two opponents, and he's the one who lands a kick, and afterwards slices Savage's arm off and holds both of them off simultaneously. As opposed to Sidious, these two weren't playing around and were actually trying quite hard to defeat Kenobi.

You seem to be forgetting Maul pushed Kenobi away when the fight was already over, so I don't see how it is even relevant.




lel, it's just the truth, and these advantages were key for him to defeat Sidious. You should quit ignoring that Windu > Maul, so Windu defeating Palpatine is also irrelevant.




Yeah, except he's not better than Sidious in anything.



I'm not saying it wasn't impressive, I agree that it was. But it sure as hell wasn't nearly as impressive as Palpatine's feat.



If you want to talk about error in judgment, Maul's error in judgment caused him his legs.

And yes, of course the circumstances were different for both characters, but Sidious' accomplishments regardless of that are just on a different league to Maul's. That's just how it is, and it is plainly obvious.

Palpatine not being able to manipulate Luke speaks more of Luke's incredible willpower and commitment to the light, tbh.




As I said before, anyone powerful enough would've been able to accomplish what Maul accomplished.

What Sidious did was necessary in order to achieve absolute galactic domination, and you're heavily underestimating it. It took a very impressive degree of political knowledge, an extremely high IQ to calculate variables, numbers and possibilities correctly, enough power to conceal your identity from several Jedi standing 1 meter away from you, an uncanny ability to lead a double life without being in danger of exposure, among other very difficult things. It really just doesn't compare.





https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1380395862ra/762658.gif Iirc Maul kicked him when these two fought alone. You ignore the same logic when applied here because you immediate lay pretend the same logic doesn't count.

Sidious killed Opress and was not holding back but apparently kicking him is winning according to you. Ridiculous logic. Let's ignore the fact Maul force pushed him away and pretend that isn't a win but a kick which did nothing to hinder him is a win in your house of double standards.

Kenobi was done fighting after he was force pushed not before. That's when the fight ended when Maul ended it. Try to use a little common sense and cease and desist from any future trolling.

When did Windu beat Maul ? He factually beat Sidious so that's a fact. Your opinion however popular doesn't diss is facts and create new ones to make up for your weak position.

He is a better survivor and a more physically imposing threat than Sidious.


It was more impressive due to the reasons I already gave. It is much harder to manipulate someone when they know you're evil as opposed to when they don't.



Palpatine's error cost him his life, his face, and his empire. It shows how overconfident and moronic Palpatine was since he risked his empire to recruit one Jedi.

All easier to accomplish due to his Sith lordship being a secret and also due to his political position. Maul did more with less in a much shorter time. Logic.

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Kurk
Are we forgetting that Maul did overpower Sidious in the end and that the latter ultimately had to rely on his force powers to end the fight?

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Kurk
Are we forgetting that Maul did overpower Sidious in the end and that the latter ultimately had to rely on his force powers to end the fight?

You got even worse after my ban. And people say I didn't do anything useful.

Trocity
Originally posted by Kurk
Are we forgetting that Maul did overpower Sidious in the end and that the latter ultimately had to rely on his force powers to end the fight?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you legitimately didn't notice Sidious disarm Maul at the end before ragdolling him. erm

quanchi112
Those who continue to disrespect Maul will have me and my new apprentice to deal with.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by quanchi112
Those who continue to disrespect Maul will have me and my new apprentice to deal with.

I didn't have a good chemotherapy in a week anyway.

Kurk
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You got even worse after my ban. And people say I didn't do anything useful. I have abandoned my former self. The Kurk you knew before your ban was weak. I destroyed him.
Originally posted by Trocity
I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you legitimately didn't notice Sidious disarm Maul at the end before ragdolling him. erm
He relied on the force to overpower Maul and disarm him. He didn't win through a saber skill advantage, that's for sure.

I can't wait until the day it's confirmed that deleted scenes are canon:
https://youtu.be/YxrMEQlTMvs?t=1m8s

quanchi112
Kurk is becoming quite powerful under my careful tutelage.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Trocity
I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you legitimately didn't notice Sidious disarm Maul at the end before ragdolling him. erm


He did disarm him. But you never know, Maul could have picked one of those Sabers up and carried on fighting if Sidious didn't Force Own him mmm

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
Iirc Maul kicked him when these two fought alone. You ignore the same logic when applied here because you immediate lay pretend the same logic doesn't count.

It really doesn't because Sidious wasn't going all-out against the two. It's pretty clear he was playing around with both of them and not once during their duel did he even attempt to overpower them with the Force, up until he decided to end it. He was toying them. Maul, Savage and Kenobi weren't playing around at all.



You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Kenobi severing Savage's arm ended the fight, while Maul Force-pushing Kenobi away happened when Maul realized they needed to escape because Savage was injured. That does not equate to a win at all. Your flawed logic is mind-blowing.



No, Maul was done fighting after Kenobi cut off his brother's arm. This is so obvious I don't understand why you even argue against it.




Yeah, the fight ended because Maul pushed Kenobi away because his brother was injured. Definitely not because he won, kek.



Okay so you're saying Windu, who has the abilities required to defeat someone on Sidious' level, wouldn't be able to defeat Maul...? TCW Maul is slightly above TCW Kenobi in terms of dueling skill, whereas Windu approaches Yoda in that area.

"You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious" - Lucas.

Unless you're saying Maul is able to compete with Sidious, which would be retarded considering how Sidious stomped him and his brother, then you have no argument for Maul > Windu. His showings in TCW sure as hell don't help, either. Nothing puts him on Windu's level.



A better survivor lol, what does that even mean?

And sure, more physically imposing is correct, given his physical appearance. That still doesn't make him better than Sidious at anything but maybe scaring non-Force users with his horns and tattoos.



You can keep telling yourself that Maul achieved what he achieved via anything other than sheer power and bullying, but taking over a couple of criminal organizations and Mandalore <<<<<< taking over the entire galaxy. So your reasons aren't good enough.




You said Palpatine demonstrated a 'huge error in judgment'. Sure, he did. I wasn't disputing that. But don't be a hypocrite, because Maul sure as hell also showed a massive error in judgment when he let this Padawan cut him in half and almost kill him, especially because he had basically already won. Shows how moronic and overconfident Maul was, eh?




All Maul did was use his power to bully his way to a good military position. I'm not going to address this for like the fourth time. Deal with it and move on.



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Darth Thor
Actually Maul never bullied DeathWatch. He offered them a mutually beneficial deal. He also aided them in gaining power in Mandalore. And later when Pre-Vizsla betrayed him had the sense to know he'd need another puppet master in place.

Maul was trained by Sidious in tactics and manipulation. He even tells him "I used your training to build all this Master".

But of course that doesn't put him even in the same ballpark as his Master in building/creating an Empire.

Petrus
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Actually Maul never bullied DeathWatch. He offered them a mutually beneficial deal. He also aided them in gaining power in Mandalore. And later when Pre-Vizsla betrayed him had the sense to know he'd need another puppet master in place.

Maul was trained by Sidious in tactics and manipulation. He even tells him "I used your training to build all this Master".

But of course that doesn't put him even in the same ballpark as his Master in building/creating an Empire.

Okay, I concede on that one. Maul didn't bully Death Watch. But that's about the only time in which he used his head other than his power.

Still nowhere near Sidious' accomplishment.

Him telling that to Sidious is utter bullshit though, considering he only worked things out with his brains and his cunning with Death Watch. He didn't use Sidious' tactics for the rest. Also, he was clearly trying to deceive Sidious, anyway. So we can't take that at face-value.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
It really doesn't because Sidious wasn't going all-out against the two. It's pretty clear he was playing around with both of them and not once during their duel did he even attempt to overpower them with the Force, up until he decided to end it. He was toying them. Maul, Savage and Kenobi weren't playing around at all.



You're conveniently ignoring the fact that Kenobi severing Savage's arm ended the fight, while Maul Force-pushing Kenobi away happened when Maul realized they needed to escape because Savage was injured. That does not equate to a win at all. Your flawed logic is mind-blowing.



No, Maul was done fighting after Kenobi cut off his brother's arm. This is so obvious I don't understand why you even argue against it.




Yeah, the fight ended because Maul pushed Kenobi away because his brother was injured. Definitely not because he won, kek.



Okay so you're saying Windu, who has the abilities required to defeat someone on Sidious' level, wouldn't be able to defeat Maul...? TCW Maul is slightly above TCW Kenobi in terms of dueling skill, whereas Windu approaches Yoda in that area.

"You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious" - Lucas.

Unless you're saying Maul is able to compete with Sidious, which would be retarded considering how Sidious stomped him and his brother, then you have no argument for Maul > Windu. His showings in TCW sure as hell don't help, either. Nothing puts him on Windu's level.



A better survivor lol, what does that even mean?

And sure, more physically imposing is correct, given his physical appearance. That still doesn't make him better than Sidious at anything but maybe scaring non-Force users with his horns and tattoos.



You can keep telling yourself that Maul achieved what he achieved via anything other than sheer power and bullying, but taking over a couple of criminal organizations and Mandalore <<<<<< taking over the entire galaxy. So your reasons aren't good enough.




You said Palpatine demonstrated a 'huge error in judgment'. Sure, he did. I wasn't disputing that. But don't be a hypocrite, because Maul sure as hell also showed a massive error in judgment when he let this Padawan cut him in half and almost kill him, especially because he had basically already won. Shows how moronic and overconfident Maul was, eh?




All Maul did was use his power to bully his way to a good military position. I'm not going to address this for like the fourth time. Deal with it and move on.



ttp://67.media.tumblr.com/da89afbe892e0b2096123052c8b74069/tumblr_nswf3sf27T1rmoekxo4_400.gif That does not matter as your point was a kick wins so regardless of him being all out he still lost according to your logic. You are attempting to use a double standard because your logic is awful and shitty. If someone kicks you and you don't stop fighting you aren't beaten. What planet do you live on in which one successful kick means a loss every single time.

Kenobi ended the fight against Savage and Maul ended the fight period. If you believe Kenobi ended the fight when he wanted I guess he wanted to get hit back by the force push because he was done fighting according to your red neck logic.


A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power. Based off your logic force pushes don't count as attacks.

laughing out loud


So you agree Maul ended the fight therefore he won via force push. I am damnnnnn good.


I am saying Windu didn't defeat Maul so it isn't a fact. Windu did defeat Sidious so it is a fact. Speculate all you want but you can't create facts.

Lucas isn't there anymore and I said Maul lost. Abc logic has no bearing here.

Maul is faster and more physically powerful without the force so he's got Sidious beat there. He also has better body posture because we see a clear imbalance in Palpatine's anterior side being stronger than his posterior side due to poor posture.

Maul survived a great fall being cut in half whereas Sidious just died from a fall alone. Evidence >>>>your fanboyism.

Untrue as he clearly manipulated the deathwatch to achieve his goals and challenged Pre Vizsla to one on one combat to rise to control. He broke free and rose to a height of power because he's clever.

Maul survived his huge error while Sheev died like a *****. Advantage:Maul.

It looks as if you already conceded this point.


http://k40.kn3.net/taringa/A/C/6/A/B/A/monteagudomatias/DFD.gif

Petrus
I'll reply tomorrow. This isn't over, though. smile

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
I'll reply tomorrow. This isn't over, though. smile

http://www.amk.to/images/articles/original/e2358ce5c64e4e9ddea52f025d8b21f024efc155.gif

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Petrus
Okay, I concede on that one. Maul didn't bully Death Watch. But that's about the only time in which he used his head other than his power.

Still nowhere near Sidious' accomplishment.

Him telling that to Sidious is utter bullshit though, considering he only worked things out with his brains and his cunning with Death Watch. He didn't use Sidious' tactics for the rest. Also, he was clearly trying to deceive Sidious, anyway. So we can't take that at face-value.


I disagree. He did use Sidious's training. That part wasn't a lie. The lie was that he did it all to impress Sidious (although there may have even been a half truth in that).

Also remember when Pre-Vizsla wanted to take over Mandalore after only building a small army, and Maul was like "we're not ready yet, watch and learn." So Vizsla was the one who knew nothing but bullying, whereas Maul was showing him when to bully, and when to motivate by other means, and when to be patient.

Regardless Agreed that none of it comes close to what Sidious achieved. But then the guy who Sidious trained will learn something about building an Empire from him.

chingchangwalla
Mandalore don't just obey anyone, if they felt Maul wasn't a good, powerful leader then they wouldn't have rescued him...

quanchi112
Maul was an incredible leader and what he achieved with his resources, short time, and his known reputation is better than manipulating as an unknown threat for decades IMO. It is much harder to manipulate when people know what kind of person you are than when they aren't aware.

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
That does not matter as your point was a kick wins so regardless of him being all out he still lost according to your logic. You are attempting to use a double standard because your logic is awful and shitty. If someone kicks you and you don't stop fighting you aren't beaten. What planet do you live on in which one successful kick means a loss every single time.

Managing to land a kick means very little when your opponent isn't even trying his best, as opposed to landing a kick on one opponent while simultaneously fending off the other's attacks. Had Sidious wanted to kill them early on and make it a short encounter, he would've. There's a huge difference. You're just choosing not to see it.



You don't seem to understand that Kenobi was fighting both simultaneously. He can't end the fight against Savage without ending it against Maul as well because if Savage gets hurt, Maul wouldn't have wanted to continue. Which is exactly what transpired. By cutting Savage's arm off he effectively ended the actual fight, and Maul Force-pushing him away happened because he was trying to get away from Kenobi, he was fleeing the battle. Seriously, your bias towards Maul knows no bounds. This is flat-out obvious.

Yes, Force push can be used as an attack. But it can also be used to push your opponents away... You know? To save yourself. Or to get off a dangerous situation.

This is an example of someone using Force Push to save yourself rather than to attack your opponent:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/4c/Kenboi_Deflecting_Durge's_Attack.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100323152220

Maul used it in the same context, like it or not. He didn't win shit.




Actually, there is nothing that contradicts Lucas' quote about these two, so we have no reason to dismiss it. And lol, it isn't using ABC, it's just being logical. The fact that you're having a difficult time accepting this fact is an entirely different matter. It is a conclusion I reached based on facts and feats, something you're just not doing at all.



Lmao.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-u9kk2nUOKvc/UQ6RQbEgodI/AAAAAAAAG4s/lXtUxOW6igA/s1600/Darth+Sidious+and+Darth+Maul+fight+gif.gif

He's definitely not faster.



And this is relevant how, exactly...?



Except that they both are Force-users, so... Moot point. confused



Rofl, can't believe you're using that as an argument.



You're calling me out on fanboyism? Irony at its best.

And I don't see how that's even relevant. You're literally fishing outside the pond to find something in which Maul can beat Sidious. Let me rephrase my words: Sidious is Maul's superior in ever aspect relevant to combat, intellect or power.




I've already conceded that Maul did use something more than power and bullying to conquer Mandalore. It still didn't take too much brains to achieve it, and it wasn't nearly as cunning, manipulative or impressive as what Sidious did to achieve his goals. I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm saying he doesn't hold a candle to Sidious.



You keep avoiding the point. I never argued that Sidious didn't commit fatal errors in judgment, I argued Maul also did, making your argument essentially hypocritical. You still haven't provided an actual response. Not that it matters, because considering Maul almost got killed by a Padawan by choosing to play around with his lightsaber instead of finishing him off. If that's not a fatal error in judgment, I don't know what is.




http://static6.techinsider.io/image/568d8756c08a8037018b7787-/voldemort%20curse%20rebounding.gif

Jmanghan
Originally posted by quanchi112
http://www.amk.to/images/articles/original/e2358ce5c64e4e9ddea52f025d8b21f024efc155.gif

LOL

Petrus
My gifs have owned his tbh.

Darth Thor
^ As did your arguments.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
Managing to land a kick means very little when your opponent isn't even trying his best, as opposed to landing a kick on one opponent while simultaneously fending off the other's attacks. Had Sidious wanted to kill them early on and make it a short encounter, he would've. There's a huge difference. You're just choosing not to see it.



You don't seem to understand that Kenobi was fighting both simultaneously. He can't end the fight against Savage without ending it against Maul as well because if Savage gets hurt, Maul wouldn't have wanted to continue. Which is exactly what transpired. By cutting Savage's arm off he effectively ended the actual fight, and Maul Force-pushing him away happened because he was trying to get away from Kenobi, he was fleeing the battle. Seriously, your bias towards Maul knows no bounds. This is flat-out obvious.

Yes, Force push can be used as an attack. But it can also be used to push your opponents away... You know? To save yourself. Or to get off a dangerous situation.

This is an example of someone using Force Push to save yourself rather than to attack your opponent:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/4c/Kenboi_Deflecting_Durge's_Attack.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100323152220

Maul used it in the same context, like it or not. He didn't win shit.




Actually, there is nothing that contradicts Lucas' quote about these two, so we have no reason to dismiss it. And lol, it isn't using ABC, it's just being logical. The fact that you're having a difficult time accepting this fact is an entirely different matter. It is a conclusion I reached based on facts and feats, something you're just not doing at all.



Lmao.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-u9kk2nUOKvc/UQ6RQbEgodI/AAAAAAAAG4s/lXtUxOW6igA/s1600/Darth+Sidious+and+Darth+Maul+fight+gif.gif

He's definitely not faster.



And this is relevant how, exactly...?



Except that they both are Force-users, so... Moot point. confused



Rofl, can't believe you're using that as an argument.



You're calling me out on fanboyism? Irony at its best.

And I don't see how that's even relevant. You're literally fishing outside the pond to find something in which Maul can beat Sidious. Let me rephrase my words: Sidious is Maul's superior in ever aspect relevant to combat, intellect or power.




I've already conceded that Maul did use something more than power and bullying to conquer Mandalore. It still didn't take too much brains to achieve it, and it wasn't nearly as cunning, manipulative or impressive as what Sidious did to achieve his goals. I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm saying he doesn't hold a candle to Sidious.



You keep avoiding the point. I never argued that Sidious didn't commit fatal errors in judgment, I argued Maul also did, making your argument essentially hypocritical. You still haven't provided an actual response. Not that it matters, because considering Maul almost got killed by a Padawan by choosing to play around with his lightsaber instead of finishing him off. If that's not a fatal error in judgment, I don't know what is.




] Landing a kick that doesn't stop or slow down your opponent doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Your argument reeks of double standards as I have clearly shown. Your own speculative nonsense isn't important here. Only the facts are and they support my reasoning while yours is torn to shreds under close scrutinization.

False. He took Savage out of the fight with an injury. He made him a liability but this has no bearing on Maul who clearly demonstrated the fight was over with his force push. Or do you believe Kenobi wanted to just injure savage and then just walk away after that strike.


So when Vader force pushed Tano he just wanted to be rid of her so the force push was more or less a loss. Your logic is bad. I guess when Maul force pushed and disarmed Kenobi in A Phantom Menace that was Maul losing according to your logic as well.


Force push is always an attack you idiot. It is always going to push someone backward. Yoda force pushed Sidious etc.

He didn't kill Kenobi but he bfrd him which means battle field removal.


Lucas isn't the end all be all so it has no bearing. It's just his opinion but only the facts matter not opinions, sport.

Maul is faster without the force. I already said this. Sidious has greater force abilities.

Palpatine is weaker when he isn't using the force.


Force isn't always at play.


Posture matters.


False. Concession accepted but feel free to prove it. Being an unknown threat and decades to achieve your goals with far greater resources is less impressive considering the degree of difficulty and the time span.

So you concede. Good.


Maul didn't die though but Palpatine was killed by a one handed, weaponless cyborg who was just soundly beaten by Luke. Sidious died Maul survived. Advantage: Maul.

https://media.giphy.com/media/L4tcvci24w4uI/giphy.gif

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ As did your arguments. This from the guy to afraid to face me.

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
Landing a kick that doesn't stop or slow down your opponent doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Your argument reeks of double standards as I have clearly shown. Your own speculative nonsense isn't important here. Only the facts are and they support my reasoning while yours is torn to shreds under close scrutinization.

The circumstances are completely different. If Sidious toying around with them is exactly the same to you as the Kenobi fighting for his life ferociously and effectively, you really don't know what you're talking about. Palpatine received a kick while playing around with them, Maul received a kick while attempting to kill/injure Kenobi as he was simultaneously fending off Savage. Is that seriously the same thing to you?

A kick doesn't mean Kenobi > Maul overall, and I actually never argued that. It just means Kenobi was pushing Maul back as he couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses, and thus, at that moment, out-dueling both of them in a state of focus and determination he's had only few times.



It definitely has bearing, especially because during the whole fight Maul couldn't once penetrate Kenobi's defenses. Kenobi was holding them off both, simultaneously. The real question is, do you believe Maul wouldn't have TK'd/utilized Force powers during their duel if he could? I mean, why would he use that Force Push at the very end of the fight, coincidentally when Savage was out of the game? Maul realized Kenobi had the upper hand, so he decided to push him away in order to flee, which is exactly what they do afterwards. It's as simple as that.




You're not getting the point at all, and you're twisting my words. I said a Force Push can indeed be used as an attack, but in some cases it can be used as a defensive counter or as a means to remove yourself from a difficult situation. Which is what Maul used it for. Your argument was:

"A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power"

And I proved you wrong, because I demonstrated it's not always used as an attack.




It's not always an attack, it's always a Force power, which isn't the same. Or was Kenobi using it as an attack when he pushed back Durge's shots...? I literally just provided you an example in which Force Push isn't used as an attack, and you just toss it aside because it trumps your argument.

Btw, keep it down with the personal insults. No need to get aggressive or angered at the fact your arguments are shit.



lol, so the creator of the SW saga making a statement about a character he invented has no bearing...? A statement which, incidentally, is never contradicted, btw. It sure as hell holds more ground than anything you could ever think of in regards to Maul's standing compared to Windu's, until proven otherwise. And considering you have absolutely no evidence that Maul is on Windu's level, I suggest you don't comment further on this matter if you don't want to look like a fool.



When the two characters are Force-users, the Force is always at play... Because, you know, it's actually a part of them. As in, it's always present.

But just for the hell of it, I'm going to indulge you on this.

Who cares about those times when Palpatine isn't using the Force? You're essentially saying Maul is stronger than Sidious at those times when he is pretending to be a weakass, fragile politician. Well, kudos. thumb up




It definitely mattered when Sidious destroyed Maul and his brother, didn't it...?



It honestly cracks me up a bit when you say stuff like 'concession accepted'.

When you consider not one Sith actually managed to achieve what Sidious did, while on the other hand conquering a single planet and taking over a couple criminal organizations is something pretty much most powerful Sith could accomplish, it puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did , with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.

And Maul's incredibly impressive deed was torn to pieces mere months/days after he accomplished it, whereas Sidious' masterfully executed conquering feats put him in power for over 15 years.

But sure, it's comparable. thumb up



Kek, you keep avoiding my actual argument because you know you have not rebuttal. That's nice.



Oh, you're using a Voldemort gif again? Concession accepted.

http://i.imgur.com/erwRMc4.gif

Darth Thor
I wonder how Quanchi's Only argument which is "Maul survived, Vader and Palpatine died" will hold up when Maul, you know, dies. And most probably before the OT begins.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Petrus
The circumstances are completely different. If Sidious toying around with them is exactly the same to you as the Kenobi fighting for his life ferociously and effectively, you really don't know what you're talking about. Palpatine received a kick while playing around with them, Maul received a kick while attempting to kill/injure Kenobi as he was simultaneously fending off Savage. Is that seriously the same thing to you?

A kick doesn't mean Kenobi > Maul overall, and I actually never argued that. It just means Kenobi was pushing Maul back as he couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses, and thus, at that moment, out-dueling both of them in a state of focus and determination he's had only few times.



It definitely has bearing, especially because during the whole fight Maul couldn't once penetrate Kenobi's defenses. Kenobi was holding them off both, simultaneously. The real question is, do you believe Maul wouldn't have TK'd/utilized Force powers during their duel if he could? I mean, why would he use that Force Push at the very end of the fight, coincidentally when Savage was out of the game? Maul realized Kenobi had the upper hand, so he decided to push him away in order to flee, which is exactly what they do afterwards. It's as simple as that.




You're not getting the point at all, and you're twisting my words. I said a Force Push can indeed be used as an attack, but in some cases it can be used as a defensive counter or as a means to remove yourself from a difficult situation. Which is what Maul used it for. Your argument was:

"A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power"

And I proved you wrong, because I demonstrated it's not always used as an attack.




It's not always an attack, it's always a Force power, which isn't the same. Or was Kenobi using it as an attack when he pushed back Durge's shots...? I literally just provided you an example in which Force Push isn't used as an attack, and you just toss it aside because it trumps your argument.

Btw, keep it down with the personal insults. No need to get aggressive or angered at the fact your arguments are shit.



lol, so the creator of the SW saga making a statement about a character he invented has no bearing...? A statement which, incidentally, is never contradicted, btw. It sure as hell holds more ground than anything you could ever think of in regards to Maul's standing compared to Windu's, until proven otherwise. And considering you have absolutely no evidence that Maul is on Windu's level, I suggest you don't comment further on this matter if you don't want to look like a fool.



When the two characters are Force-users, the Force is always at play... Because, you know, it's actually a part of them. As in, it's always present.

But just for the hell of it, I'm going to indulge you on this.

Who cares about those times when Palpatine isn't using the Force? You're essentially saying Maul is stronger than Sidious at those times when he is pretending to be a weakass, fragile politician. Well, kudos. thumb up




It definitely mattered when Sidious destroyed Maul and his brother, didn't it...?



It honestly cracks me up a bit when you say stuff like 'concession accepted'.

When you consider not one Sith actually managed to achieve what Sidious did, while on the other hand conquering a single planet and taking over a couple criminal organizations is something pretty much most powerful Sith could accomplish, it puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did , with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.

And Maul's incredibly impressive deed was torn to pieces mere months/days after he accomplished it, whereas Sidious' masterfully executed conquering feats put him in power for over 15 years.

But sure, it's comparable. thumb up



Kek, you keep avoiding my actual argument because you know you have not rebuttal. That's nice.



Oh, you're using a Voldemort gif again? Concession accepted.

That doesn't matter and that's just an opinion. That matters is the kicks and you clearly use a double standard with the typical crazy justification as to why it's different.


A kick is a kick which didn't defeat either guy who was kicked. That is the point. You exaggerated one Kenobi kick because you're a fanboy.

A force push prevented Kenobi from continuing to press his brother. He overcame his defenses. Maul force lashed him out of the area which he wanted to do. Victory goes to Maul.

It is always an attack which drives the person back. Your double standards surfacing up is a moot point.

A force push is always an attack. It might not have the same result but it's always an attack. That's the point which you have no recourse other than to concede.



My point wasn't whether he is on his level or not. Windu never beat Maul. That's a fact. He beat Sidious which is a fact. Quit being upset over facts and citing an opinion of a guy who doesn't own the rights to Star Wars anymore.

The force isn't always in play unless they concentrate. That's the point. If they are just asleep or not paying attention the force will not enhance anything. Concession accepted.

Greater force powers. That's all. Posture still matters.

Less resources, a known threat, less time is more impressive with more resources, an unknown threat, and more time. That's logical no matter what your fanboyism tells your brain.


http://i.makeagif.com/media/3-15-2015/3vsbx1.gif

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I wonder how Quanchi's Only argument which is "Maul survived, Vader and Palpatine died" will hold up when Maul, you know, dies. And most probably before the OT begins. You clearly didn't read my argument then. Quit crying because we know how weakling Vader and dumbass Palpatine have perished. In the end they were weak.

Petrus
Originally posted by quanchi112
That doesn't matter and that's just an opinion. That matters is the kicks and you clearly use a double standard with the typical crazy justification as to why it's different.

It obviously matters. Why the hell wouldn't it matter if Sidious wasn't even trying his best, as opposed to Kenobi and the Maul Bros? How's that even the same thing?




I never said a kick means the kicked is defeated. I said it means he is being out-dueled, which makes it impressive because he was simultaneously fending off Savage from the other end.

I actually said I have Maul slightly above Kenobi overall. Learn to read or pay more attention to my posts, whichever applies to your situation.



I've tried to explain this several times now, and you fail to comprehend the situation. You didn't answer my questions. Honestly, it's so obvious that it shouldn't even be a debate. The fact that you think that last Force Push means Maul is the victor shows how incredibly biased you are.



You conveniently ignoring the evidence I provided regarding this particular subject is getting laughable at best. There is no double standard.



Read above.



lol, that's just you being pretty butthurt over the fact that Windu > Maul. It pleases me.



So you just proved Maul is better than Palpatine while pretending to be the weak, fragile politician. Or when he's asleep. Congratulations. thumb up



Exactly how does posture matter if Sidious is more skilled or powerful?



Originally posted by Petrus
It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did , with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.

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