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Do the runner get his gem?

No gem.

Originally posted by Zack M
No gem.

Didn't this happen?

Call him Buried Alien, it's obvious who that was.

Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't this happen?

Call him Buried Alien, it's obvious who that was.

Burried Allen was faster than everyone, right?

Neither of these people will remember they have super speed. It's KMC, they will both never use it.

Originally posted by Zack M
Burried Allen was faster than everyone, right?
Barely but yes. This doesn't take into account Runners CL100 physical stats and "love me" aura.

Barry stomps.Originally posted by zopzop
Barely but yes. This doesn't take into account Runners CL100 physical stats and "love me" aura.
Yeah, tell that to Barry when he kicks the shit out of him.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/flashvsspectre.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/flashspeed.jpg

Didn't Flash run from one end of the universe to the other in zero time? Or whatever they called it?

Lol. Somebody else beating on the Spectre. What a puss.

Originally posted by Zack M
Didn't Flash run from one end of the universe to the other in zero time? Or whatever they called it?
Yes. He was also destroying suns by simple vibrational tricks.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes. He was also destroying suns by simple vibrational tricks.

Scan?

Zeus looks like he is going to LITERALLY rape the earth in that picture. Look at the lust in his eyes, the hunger in them. He's gonna stick his dick in a volcano or something. Zeus is going to rape Earth out of existence. That is probably the worst way to die.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Barry stomps.
Yeah, tell that to Barry when he kicks the shit out of him.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/flashvsspectre.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/flashspeed.jpg

Pre Crisis Barry cannot even breathe in outer space, lol, much less beat the freakin' Spectre. He was amped in their encounter with phantom powers. In the PC days anyone who's a ghost/phantom is in effect a universal power (much like the spectre). Hence why he was able to challenge the Spectre.

In fact, PC Barry was actually legitimately weaker than his post crisis self or Wally for that matter; he was beaten by his rogue gallery pretty regularly. And these include the likes of Captain Boomerang, or the Top, or Yorkin (all street level btw), hell, even regular normal thugs have tagged and beaten Barry physically but since this is a Pre-Crisis character we must give him the auto-win I guess.


And when did he run to the end of the universe in zero time btw? (I hope you're not referring to his encounter with Superman?). in his PC days he was always given the limit that he can travel 10 times the speed of light but broke that number on a number of occasions but that was still his average and limit most of the time.

Originally posted by Zack M
Burried Allen was faster than everyone, right? The rhetorical nature of this question is so funny. You wouldn't have made this thread if there was any evidence otherwise since the Buried alien scans would be on dropped the second someone (carver probably) said "runner"

Originally posted by psycho gundam
The rhetorical nature of this question is so funny. You wouldn't have made this thread if there was any evidence otherwise since the Buried alien scans would be on dropped the second someone (carver probably) said "runner"
But even then, Allen was just BARELY ahead of Makkari and Runner. So the (minuscule) speed advantage is meaningless when you take into consideration Runners massive physical stat advantage and mindphucking aura.

Originally posted by operator616
He was amped in their encounter with phantom powers. In the PC days anyone who's a ghost/phantom is in effect a universal power (much like the spectre).

You had me at "phantom powers". This is why the PC days need to be brought back. I just wish at the end of every comic they listed the combination of drugs the writers wrote the comic on.

Originally posted by operator616
Pre Crisis Barry cannot even breathe in outer space, lol, much less beat the freakin' Spectre. He was amped in their encounter with phantom powers. In the PC days anyone who's a ghost/phantom is in effect a universal power (much like the spectre). Hence why he was able to challenge the Spectre.


Eh, what? He was turned ghostly by Ghost Ace but everything else was just him with the speed and striking power.



Yeah and Runner got tripped over by Mantis. Wally has himself got beaten by these rogues and at one point couldn't dodge four boomerangs. Under Geoff Johns no less.

And I gave him the win because he was legitimately a feat monster. Him just containing the anti matter cannon of Anti Monitor shits on anything Runner has done.

Wally tried that and failed BTW.




10 times the speed of light? Are you kidding me?

Originally posted by zopzop
But even then, Allen was just BARELY ahead of Makkari and Runner. So the (minuscule) speed advantage is meaningless when you take into consideration Runners massive physical stat advantage and mindphucking aura.
Buried alien isn't Barry Allen.

And Runner isn't even lightspeed in fact.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Buried alien isn't Barry Allen.

And Runner isn't even lightspeed in fact.
Runner is FTL. This being travels the universe under his own power. If he was < FTL it would take him over 100,000 light years to cross an average sized galaxy.

The galactic race was a foot race and nothing more. It had specific rules.

Originally posted by zopzop
Runner is FTL. This being travels the universe under his own power. If he was < FTL it would take him over 100,000 light years to cross an average sized galaxy.

The galactic race was a foot race and nothing more. It had specific rules.
He travels using hyperspace.

Yes, which is why he isn't lightspeed. He also couldn't escape a black hole.

Runner wins...

When debating we look at all showings...

Runner has one truly low showing; being tripped by Mantis (which hardly constitues a loss)...

The rest of his combat showings are pretty strong...

Pre Crisis Barry Allen has many lows...

On average Runner is greater than Barry Allen...

Runner wins...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eh, what? He was turned ghostly by Ghost Ace but everything else was just him with the speed and striking power.



...You cannot be serious. The ghostly powers are what enabled him to battle the Spectre in the first place. Spectre explicitly mentioned that. And it was established before that story that any phantom being is on the same level as the Spectre.

"Striking power"? Well, let's ignore the fact that his phantom powers enabled him to grow to mountain size firstly, and his ghostly powers are what let him to battle Spectre's astral self.

This is what happened to Barry when he lost his amp:

http://imgur.com/99mSOl3

FYI, This is "regular" Barry's striking power (against a random thug not even a street level villain)

http://imgur.com/5gxsGlW

Why you think Barry could even hold his own against the spectre or that his blows would have any effect is beyond me.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah and Runner got tripped over by Mantis. Wally has himself got beaten by these rogues and at one point couldn't dodge four boomerangs. Under Geoff Johns no less.



PC Barry was once KO'd by a piece of paper thrown at him, literally (not even kidding).

And yeah, of course Wally was also beaten by his rogue gallery but he also had some pretty crazy showings which PC Barry never had.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And I gave him the win because he was legitimately a feat monster. Him just containing the anti matter cannon of Anti Monitor shits on anything Runner has done.

Wally tried that and failed BTW.


Wally failed to contain the cannon because at the time his powers were in a mess. And that's actually advantage Barry had; he could literally shift his molecules to whatever he liked, and I even recall an instance where he changed them into anti-matter (though nothing of the sort was mentioned in the AM instance but we could presume), so naturally he is gonna do better than Wally - who didn't have that ability, and whose powers were in a mess - in containing the AM canon. That doesn't mean he's more powerful than Wally though. But that's beside the point anyway.

You also have to take into account that Barry appeared in a much larger amount of comics than the Runner so taking his highest feat is not exactly fair, but I think comparing them is pointless anyway since Gruenwald's perception of top speed (for any physical object) is light speed just like irl.

Originally posted by abhilegend

10 times the speed of light? Are you kidding me?

Not in the slightest.

On panel:

http://imgur.com/7p4KT8i

Editorial confirmation 43 issues later:

http://imgur.com/9M4bN8k

The editor confirmed despite the fact that a few issues earlier Flash was able to cross the galaxy in a week (which is much greater than 10 times FTL); that tells you even though Flash could on occasions go greater than that, it is still his average top speed according to the writer's intentions and backed up by many encounters and instances. Just like I said in my original post.

Originally posted by operator616
...You cannot be serious. The ghostly powers are what enabled him to battle the Spectre in the first place. Spectre explicitly mentioned that. And it was established before that story that any phantom being is on the same level as the Spectre.

Yes I'm serious. The ghostly power allowed him to touch Spectre but his striking power wasn't increased.

I'd like to see where it was mentioned that every phantom being is equal to Spectre somehow.



Yes, which didn't somehow increase his striking power.



Yes, he was unable to run in space. We knew that already.



Yes, low showings happened in silver age. On the other hand his normal punches were able to hurt Superman.

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29361524_File0880.jpg

I'm sure you can find a lot of low showings for Superman as well.



facepalm






And he survived several attacks from a pre crisis Kryptonian before he was punched in Earth's orbit.

Shit happens like that in comics.





You sure you've read the correct Flash comics? Barry was ****ing broken in those days.





No, because he didn't have the skills of Barry Allen to stop the cannon.



Those are a lot of excuses. And no, Wally's powers were not in a mess. In the same comic he destroyed Anti-Monitor's armor when every hero on earth couldn't do it.

It just shows Barry was more skilled than Wally who admitted as such too.




He failed to escape from a black hole in Englehart's run as well.





Yes, silver age was inconsistent like that. Still much faster than that slowpoke Runner who has never gone even lightspeed in a fight.

And no, its not his average speed. Not even close.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes I'm serious. The ghostly power allowed him to touch Spectre but his striking power wasn't increased.

I'd like to see where it was mentioned that every phantom being is equal to Spectre somehow.



Yes, which didn't somehow increase his striking power.


Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:

http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfR

Here is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:

http://imgur.com/1ZrDAcm

Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:

http://imgur.com/yPaFkdi

And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:

http://imgur.com/r6n0ZOa
http://imgur.com/fikWu85


Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, low showings happened in silver age. On the other hand his normal punches were able to hurt Superman.

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29361524_File0880.jpg

I'm sure you can find a lot of low showings for Superman as well.



This has nothing to do with low balling, rather, determining the average. But whatever.

Your instance is unusable anyway because the magician was absorbing Superman's power, who himself said that regular blows wouldn't even tickle him, but believe what you wish.

Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm


And he survived several attacks from a pre crisis Kryptonian before he was punched in Earth's orbit.

Shit happens like that in comics.


It's funny because I'm the one who should be facepalming you for making such absurd statements, but id rather not and keep it respectful.

His durability is shit tier. He regularly gets KOed by slipping and getting knocked out on the ground, gets KOed by a boomerang, gets KOed by thugs from behind quite frequently, going through a glass window could have killed him, Big Sir punched his face so hard that it became unrecognizable. The only reaon why he can survive superhuman encounters is because of his invisible protective aura which can be burnt out at a certain amount of heat (not too much; forgot how much exactly but this tells you that it limits aren't that high).

Putting Barry on a physical level close to superman or being able to harm the Spectre is laughable to say the least, and you know it. So stop this already.

Originally posted by abhilegend


You sure you've read the correct Flash comics? Barry was ****ing broken in those days.


I could lol too, but you are so ignorant to the point that it isn't even funny.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, because he didn't have the skills of Barry Allen to stop the cannon.

Those are a lot of excuses. And no, Wally's powers were not in a mess. In the same comic he destroyed Anti-Monitor's armor when every hero on earth couldn't do it.

It just shows Barry was more skilled than Wally who admitted as such too.


Unlike you, I don't just make shit up. It was stated on panel in the AM instance itself and it was a problem Wally was dealing with for a while, not that you'd know about it of course. Let me know if you want the scans.

Every time he goes through an object it instantly explodes. So yes, his powers were definitely in a mess. And Wally didn't have the ability to convert his molecules into anti matter like Barry did. That gives Barry an advantage in this case.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, silver age was inconsistent like that. Still much faster than that slowpoke Runner who has never gone even lightspeed in a fight.

And no, its not his average speed. Not even close.

Like I said comparing them is meaningless for reasons ive already stated and I could care less.

From an objective point of view yes it is. From a subjective/bias-Abhi point of view, it isn't I guess.

Originally posted by operator616
Pre Crisis Barry cannot even breathe in outer space, lol, much less beat the freakin' Spectre. He was amped in their encounter with phantom powers. In the PC days anyone who's a ghost/phantom is in effect a universal power (much like the spectre). Hence why he was able to challenge the Spectre.

In fact, PC Barry was actually legitimately weaker than his post crisis self or Wally for that matter; he was beaten by his rogue gallery pretty regularly. And these include the likes of Captain Boomerang, or the Top, or Yorkin (all street level btw), hell, even regular normal thugs have tagged and beaten Barry physically but since this is a Pre-Crisis character we must give him the auto-win I guess.


And when did he run to the end of the universe in zero time btw? (I hope you're not referring to his encounter with Superman?). in his PC days he was always given the limit that he can travel 10 times the speed of light but broke that number on a number of occasions but that was still his average and limit most of the time.

Originally posted by operator616
Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:

http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfR

Here is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:

http://imgur.com/1ZrDAcm

Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:

http://imgur.com/yPaFkdi

And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:

http://imgur.com/r6n0ZOa
http://imgur.com/fikWu85




This has nothing to do with low balling, rather, determining the average. But whatever.

Your instance is unusable anyway because the magician was absorbing Superman's power, who himself said that regular blows wouldn't even tickle him, but believe what you wish.



It's funny because I'm the one who should be facepalming you for making such absurd statements, but id rather not and keep it respectful.

His durability is shit tier. He regularly gets KOed by slipping and getting knocked out on the ground, gets KOed by a boomerang, gets KOed by thugs from behind quite frequently, going through a glass window could have killed him, Big Sir punched his face so hard that it became unrecognizable. The only reaon why he can survive superhuman encounters is because of his invisible protective aura which can be burnt out at a certain amount of heat (not too much; forgot how much exactly but this tells you that it limits aren't that high).

Putting Barry on a physical level close to superman or being able to harm the Spectre is laughable to say the least, and you know it. So stop this already.



I could lol too, but you are so ignorant to the point that it isn't even funny.



Unlike you, I don't just make shit up. It was stated on panel in the AM instance itself and it was a problem Wally was dealing with for a while, not that you'd know about it of course. Let me know if you want the scans.

Every time he goes through an object it instantly explodes. So yes, his powers were definitely in a mess. And Wally didn't have the ability to convert his molecules into anti matter like Barry did. That gives Barry an advantage in this case.



Like I said comparing them is meaningless for reasons ive already stated and I could care less.

From an objective point of view yes it is. From a subjective/bias-Abhi point of view, it isn't I guess.

This is complete ownage.

Originally posted by operator616
Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:

http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfR

Here is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:

http://imgur.com/1ZrDAcm

Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:

http://imgur.com/yPaFkdi

And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:

http://imgur.com/r6n0ZOa
http://imgur.com/fikWu85


facepalm

The scan flat out says because Flash is non physical, he can hit Spectre and harm him. His speed and striking power isn't amped.

Drop the condescending tone.

Yes, because you're not going entirely from average showings, eh?

GTFO.

Hahaha yeah, that's what made him hurt Superman when Superman just tanked Hal's attacks just fine a few pages later.

But Superman was human level, right?

Haha, this is respectful?

And go ahead, seeing how you're already being a condescending know it all.

Yes, you could replace any Flash there. Silver Age was inconsistent like that.

Look at how Slade is able to beat Flashes even today.

You sure are not lowballing there. No sir.



Nobody said Flash was Superman level. Him being able to punch hard enough to alter a planet's orbit us all him though.



Definitely "respectful."

Should I be impressed with your complete knowledge of every character ever?



Ah yes, you never make shit up.

The only difference was that Wally's vibrations made things blow up while Barry was skilled enough to contain entire explosion.

What a low feat, right?

And yes, do enlighten me about how Wally was so depowered at that time. I need a good laugh.



Yes, that was the situation for years. It wasn't a new development.

And Barry didn't turn into anti matter to contain the anti matter cannon. Now who is making shit up, eh?



I don't give a shit about what you think as well.

Like minded, eh?

Yeah, you're just the most non biased poster out there and a complete Saint.

Color me unimpressed.

Originally posted by carver9
This is complete ownage.


Look at this cheerleader.

Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm

The scan flat out says because Flash is non physical, he can hit Spectre and harm him. His speed and striking power isn't amped.

Drop the condescending tone.


Ok. As if it wasn't already obvious enough....

http://imgur.com/FmNSC0m

Will you shut up now?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hahaha yeah, that's what made him hurt Superman when Superman just tanked Hal's attacks just fine a few pages later.

But Superman was human level, right?


That's great but you do realize that Hal was depowered in the early-mid 70s, right? The guardians reduced his power level by a significant amount, then renewed him and ultimately gave him a new more powerful ring in '76.

Also, let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him. Leaving out context as usual.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, this is respectful?

And go ahead, seeing how you're already being a condescending know it all.


I started off as respectful. You're the one who started being condescending.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, you could replace any Flash there. Silver Age was inconsistent like that.

Look at how Slade is able to beat Flashes even today.

You sure are not lowballing there. No sir.


The silver age may have been inconsistent a bit, but bronze age wasn't. Half of these are from the bronze age.

And I like how your main excuse is basically "Umm, yes, this was pre-Crisis which was very inconsistent". The difference between Pre-Crisis and post-Crisis inconsistency isn't that much tbh. It's not like Barry is defeating Spectre one day and losing to a thug on another, stop portraying it as such. You're overblowing it. Flash was never able to hurt anybody on Spectre's level or anyone even close to that. His average portrayal is him having trouble dealing with one of his shitty rogues and that's it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Nobody said Flash was Superman level. Him being able to punch hard enough to alter a planet's orbit us all him though.


Already sealed this part of the debate. But lol at you believing the flash's strength being anywhere near this level. The ignorance here is simply ridiculous.

Originally posted by abhilegend

The only difference was that Wally's vibrations made things blow up while Barry was skilled enough to contain entire explosion.

What a low feat, right?

And yes, do enlighten me about how Wally was so depowered at that time. I need a good laugh.

Yes, that was the situation for years. It wasn't a new development.

And Barry didn't turn into anti matter to contain the anti matter cannon. Now who is making shit up, eh?


When did I say that Wally was depowered, exactly? I said that his powers were in a mess ever since he came back from the SF for the 1st time. Which is the sole reason attributed to his failure in containing the canon.

http://imgur.com/C7Mz5vt

Outright stated on panel.

And I never said it was a low feat, stop putting words in my mouth already.

Fair enough. But he had better control over his molecules than Wally, that's my point. Anyway, arguing over who is more powerful is pointless since there are lots of statements and even editors confirming it that they are on the same level - which is all that matters in the end. Needless to say, this level that they are in is far below anything capable of hurting the Spectre. Unlike Abhi-Flash, that is

Originally posted by abhilegend

I don't give a shit about what you think as well.

Like minded, eh?


Lol. You are so caught up in your rage that you're starting to see insults where there are none. When I said I could care less I wasn't referring to you. Just lay back and relax a bit, will you.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, you're just the most non biased poster out there and a complete Saint.


Thanks. Glad we established that.

Originally posted by operator616
Ok. As if it wasn't already obvious enough....

http://imgur.com/FmNSC0m

Will you shut up now?

Fair enough.





So Hal was depowered to below Flash level who was human level at best, eh?

But I'd like to know the issue number where his power was decreased and restored though.



I posted the scans for all to see. And GL failed to hurt him. So as Flash is human level as you've so valiantly proved, Superman and GL must be human level too, right?





"No you" is pretty strong argument.





Yes, and Flash wasn't struggling to humans on average in bronze age.



Haha, seriously? How about Wally destroying Anti-Monitor's armor and then losing to his own rogues?

And no, it wasn't his average to struggle to his rogues.





His speed was increased. I already said that.





And that was happening for years. Trying to paint it as if Wally's powers were in a mess and that's why he failed is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.



B-b-but, he struggles against humans. How can he stop universal anti matter cannon?





And "Barry stopped it because he can control his molecules or maybe he changed his molecules to anti matter" operator Flash that is.

Except he stopped because he generated more energy than the cannon could handle. And the cannon could handle universal level energies.

http://i.imgur.com/ZW76pcc.jpg

Barry overloaded the cannon and then contained it. Not stopped it due to turning into anti matter.







And here I thought I was just getting started.







Sarcasm is definitely not your friend.

Originally posted by abhilegend

So Hal was depowered to below Flash level who was human level at best, eh?

But I'd like to know the issue number where his power was decreased and restored though.


No he wasn't. And I never claimed that Flash was human level, the exact opposite in fact. It seems you have trouble comprehending my posts.

He was granted a leave of absence in GL v2 #76; the power reduction was first mentioned in #77 (1970); Hal's series was cancelled in issue #89 and then he started to appear in the Flash comics where his powers did go up a bit again from what I remember. Although he was legitimately back to full power and got a more powerful ring when his series re-surfaced in issue #90 (1976).

Originally posted by abhilegend
I posted the scans for all to see. And GL failed to hurt him. So as Flash is human level as you've so valiantly proved, Superman and GL must be human level too, right?



Just stop, will you? Again:

let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
"No you" is pretty strong argument.



You know me, I never start hostility unless the other person is being hostile first. You were the one who started being hostile and face palming my posts, which is ironic, because now we both know that I was right all along.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yes, and Flash wasn't struggling to humans on average in bronze age.

And no, it wasn't his average to struggle to his rogues.


Yes he was, are you sure you are reading the right comics? I mean, it's pretty weird for you to make such a comment when half of Flash's PC comics focus on him doing exactly that: Fighting one of his rogues. I can't emphasize this enough but his entire PC history goes completely against your comments here.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Haha, seriously? How about Wally destroying Anti-Monitor's armor and then losing to his own rogues?


Yes, seriously, it wasn't that inconsistent, and I dare you to prove me otherwise.

Let's get something straight first: Waid was full of shit in that arc. He had Wally destroy AM's armor with his vibrations yet couldn't do the same to random robots no matter how hard he tried a few issues earlier. I mean, wtf?

But even putting that aside, this was Wally at his absolute peak, this time period in particular was truly different from the others. In the space of a year he acquired three insane feats (the gamblers affair, the black flash, and the AM arc), He wasn't dealing with the rogues at that period, it was all cosmic. Now I know you'll respond with "But you said that his powers were in a mess" - they were, he couldn't control his vibrations, but that doesn't mean his power level was dampened; he was starting to truly realize the limits of his power which he acquired from the SF.

Originally posted by abhilegend

His speed was increased. I already said that.


The thing that baffles me, is that you actually thought that Barry is capable of doing these things to the Spectre unamped. Even if it wasn't stated on panel, it is obvious enough. I honestly thought you knew better.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And that was happening for years. Trying to paint it as if Wally's powers were in a mess and that's why he failed is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.



Yes, it wasn't a new development, I get that, but I'm not sure how is that relevant in any way. Why are you still in denial? Can't you read?

http://imgur.com/C7Mz5vt

"naturally Barry contained it with his vibrations! but mine can't hold it - because they're different - destructive"

It doesn't get more crystal clear than this.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And "Barry stopped it because he can control his molecules or maybe he changed his molecules to anti matter" operator Flash that is.

Except he stopped because he generated more energy than the cannon could handle. And the cannon could handle universal level energies.

http://i.imgur.com/ZW76pcc.jpg

Barry overloaded the cannon and then contained it. Not stopped it due to turning into anti matter.





I already admitted that that was an assumption and merely mentioned it to strengthen my case, my main argument was the on panel evidence which I provided above, so I'm not sure why you're still clinging to the irrelevant part?

Anyway, wrong as usual. There are several accounts of the AM cannon instance which contradict each other in terms of these little details. For example, Secret Origins tells us that the cannon was powered by a tachyon particle and that Flash stopped the cannon by running and catching said particle; your JLA account tells us something different. So why don't we just look at what happened in the main event itself.

http://imgur.com/YTr8CNj
http://imgur.com/roEDSAO

As you can see, Flash clearly said that all what he was doing is forcing the anti matter back to the cannon, which is how he was able to stop it.

Furthermore, that's what the official index confirms:

http://imgur.com/jegWLuX

"Force the energy back into the machine" - just like what happened on panel.

And that's how Waid saw it apparently, because he mentions that Barry contained the cannon with his vibrations, not by generating more energy than the cannon can take, and was the sole reason why Wally failed - because his vibrations were destructive unlike Barry's.

You also took that scan out of context. The cannon already had universal+ energies inside it. Maybe that was its maximum capacity so all Barry had to do is generate a little more and it would overload. But that's beside the point anyway because your account isn't more reliable than any of others which don't agree on the little details, which is why we should look at what happened in the main series.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Sarcasm is definitely not your friend.

Neither is it yours apparently, because you'd have to be actually right for it to work. A trait you're severely lacking in this thread.

Originally posted by operator616
No he wasn't. And I never claimed that Flash was human level, the exact opposite in fact. It seems you have trouble comprehending my posts.

Yet, here you are posting scans of Flash unable to beat a human. So either you are claiming Flash was human level or just lowballing him.

So what is it?



So basically he was human Flash level in between? How embarrassing!





Why? It is too much fun.



Yes and GL failed to do so even in that state. So Superman and GLs were dropped to human level, right?





You were right for one thing and wrong for another. And you started hostility in the first place.





And winning. Half of it was doing insane shit like blowing up suns and running across galaxies.



No, it doesn't.





Do you want me to post the insane shit Barry used to pull in Silver Age?



And yet you are penalizing Barry for fighting his rogues, eh?



So he didn't have any trouble with his rogues, eh? Never lost to Deathstroke after that?

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/deathstrokejla3.jpg

Are you sure about that?

Looks like Wally is human level too.



No need to gloat. I already conceded about that.





Yes, and here you are flat out wrong. Barry contained it and forced it back through his own power. Tell us more about how he changed himself to anti matter to do that.

You are simply not comprehending the scope of the feat.



Ah yes, but how did human level Barry Allen pulled out universal feats?





Because it amuses me.

Do I need another reason to point out your mistakes?



Haha, this is not your written comic. There is no right or wrong between two different interpretations.



That doesn't mean the comic itself is wrong. You are being absurd.



Yes, and he is doing that in the JLA scene as well. There he is generating counter force to compress the energy back in the cannon.





Even if we consider so, JLA instance is newer and more clear about what happened. So once again, how does human level Barry Allen did that? Isn't he always struggling against his rogues?



Yes, and it shows Barry was more skilled about his powers.

But even containing universal level energies is impressive for human level barry allen, wouldn't you say?



No, it is reliable all right. Just because you don't like it doesn't means it non canon somehow.





Haha, the sanctimonious approach is almost pitiful.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yet, here you are posting scans of Flash unable to beat a human. So either you are claiming Flash was human level or just lowballing him.

So what is it?


You are spouting a bunch of nonsense at this point. I posted a scan of Barry's "striking power". Which is much more close to his average portrayal than your out of context Spectre scans. This is such a basic concept that i don't even know why I'm debating this with you. Do me a favor will you? Pick a random pre-Crisis Flash comic and read it then come back to me and point out which is the closer portrayal to the comic you read. Otherwise, you can go ahead and continue deluding yourself that Barry's average portrayal is punching a planet out of orbit or better yet, hurting the Spectre. I honestly don't give a shit at this point.

I wont comment on your other parts of the post where the same "Flash is human level right?" rubbish is being repeated over and over again.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Do you want me to post the insane shit Barry used to pull in Silver Age?


He had his moments, which are very few and not on Wally's level.

But go ahead and post them. Enlighten me.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So he didn't have any trouble with his rogues, eh? Never lost to Deathstroke after that?

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/deathstrokejla3.jpg

Are you sure about that?

Looks like Wally is human level too.


Way to post an instance several years later when I specifically emphasized the importance of the time period which he was in. But then again, it's you.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and here you are flat out wrong. Barry contained it and forced it back through his own power. Tell us more about how he changed himself to anti matter to do that.

You are simply not comprehending the scope of the feat.

Haha, this is not your written comic. There is no right or wrong between two different interpretations.

That doesn't mean the comic itself is wrong. You are being absurd.

Yes, and he is doing that in the JLA scene as well. There he is generating counter force to compress the energy back in the cannon.


There is right or wrong between two different interpretations because we're specifically debating the aspect which the writers seem to disagree upon.

In which case, going back to the original series, Barry did contain the AM cannon and force it back on itself. As opposed to Barry overloading the universal+ cannon like your scans/posts seem to imply. Hell, a third interpretation didn't even mention Barry forcing the anti matter back, but rather outrunning the tachyon particle which powers the cannon. Clearly, we should consider what the original intent was, especially when we're debating Barry of that time period in which it was written.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because it amuses me.


Just so you know, you basically admitted to trolling. Not that I ever doubted you.

I've seen everything now. Don't usually see mild mannered operator get this agitated.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I've seen everything now. Don't usually see mild mannered operator get this agitated.

Lol. You know better than anyone how frustrating Abhi's intransigence can be.

U lost me at intransingethingamajig...

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
U lost me at intransingethingamajig...

Originally posted by operator616
You are spouting a bunch of nonsense at this point. I posted a scan of Barry's "striking power".

Which failed to knock out a human as you put it. So he is basically human level right?




So you are admitting that Barry was just human level in striking power, right? Why are you so afraid of admitting what you just "proved."




Or hurting a somewhat weakened Superman isn't impressive when GL couldn't.



But Rogues were human and you told me in the whole thread that Flash's average was to struggle against them.

So how come he isn't human level on average.



How about no?



But how can I enlighten you? Don't you have read pretty much every comic ever?





So it doesn't counts? But Barry's does?





No, there isn't. Not in this case where all Ostrander did was expand what actually happened in the comic.



Yes, and Barry containing universal+ energies isn't impressive somehow. According to you that is.





No, I just informed that I'm pointing out your rubbish claim that Barry turned into anti matter amuses me because you are really trying your hardest to paint Barry stopping the cannon as unimpressive.

Keep it up.

Originally posted by operator616
Lol. You know better than anyone how frustrating Abhi's intransigence can be.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Which failed to knock out a human as you put it. So he is basically human level right?

So you are admitting that Barry was just human level in striking power, right? Why are you so afraid of admitting what you just "proved."


Alright. This is my last post on this part of the subject but it's not my fault if you're too dumb to understand it like my previous posts.

Firstly, I never claimed Flash is human level but in comparison to his herald peers he is physically weak, that is my point. There is no debate about it and has always been like that since the golden age; hell Jay once broke his hand punching a normal human at super speed; granted, in the silver age Barry acquired better physicality than Jay in the golden age but he was still pretty weak compared to top tiers physically. Just look what happens when he confronts Goldface for example, who casually stomped him to the ground 3 times in a row and Barry couldn't even budge him no matter how hard he tried. Wally got better in the post-Crisis era and by extension so did Barry and Jay when they were featured in the post-Crisis comics. But we're talking pre-Crisis Barry here, and he was sub-par in the physical department. When I posted that striking power scan, I did it to poke fun at Barry mostly; I know it's not his average (but it is much closer to it than your out of context scans); and to show you that there's no way someone can have trouble hurting a thug while also able to hurt the Spectre. This simply doesn't happen.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Or hurting a somewhat weakened Superman isn't impressive when GL couldn't.


Weakened-era GL as I have established before and you continuously ignored. That was the same GL who was KO'd by standing near to a simple explosion which did nothing to the human standing near to him. Among other things which I just don't care to mention.

Originally posted by abhilegend
But Rogues were human and you told me in the whole thread that Flash's average was to struggle against them.

So how come he isn't human level on average.



Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with you? Should I clarify every single little detail for you to understand? Rogues aren't human level. Mirror Master creates a mirror duplicator which affects the real person, captain boomerang has boomerangs which can time travel, the top has telekinetic powers, pied piper's music could control Flash, etc...
They're not human level but neither are they top tier, yet Flash always struggles with them and that's his average.

I'm tired of explaining this boring, basic shit to you all the time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How about no?

But how can I enlighten you? Don't you have read pretty much every comic ever?


How about you just show me.

Where the hell did I claim I read every comic ever? No idea where's this coming from. But I'm not sure why all your counters focus on personal attacks instead of just the material at hand. Can't you just post the scans already.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, there isn't. Not in this case where all Ostrander did was expand what actually happened in the comic.



He didn't expand, he outright contradicted it. He attributed Barry overloading the cannon to it being stopped, while in the original series all he did was force the anti matter back.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and Barry containing universal+ energies isn't impressive somehow. According to you that is.

No, I just informed that I'm pointing out your rubbish claim that Barry turned into anti matter amuses me because you are really trying your hardest to paint Barry stopping the cannon as unimpressive.

Keep it up.


You are either completely incapable of comprehending my posts, or you simply like to twist things.

Our whole debate is figuring out why Wally was unable to do what Barry did to the AM cannon, nowhere did I say that the feat is unimpressive or try to paint it as such.

I have to say I see way way more drama on here over debates than I ever did on CBR.

Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by operator616
Alright. This is my last post on this part of the subject but it's not my fault if you're too dumb to understand it like my previous posts.


Pardon us mere mortals who haven't read every comic ever.



So he is human level but not human levels too.

And Wally broke his hand punching Grodd as well.

Flashes are the most inconsistent top tiers ever. They can beat everyone and get beaten up by everyone. Its just how the character works.





Yes, so GL was human level as well. Good to know. How about Superman now? If we are going by lowest feats, you might want to tell us about his lowest feats as well.





Absolutely nothing. Just poking fun at your logic.



So yes, Barry and Wally are human levels. But at the same time they are not.

Basically you want to have your cake and eat it too.



Then you shouldn't make absurd claims like Flash's average is struggling with the rogues.





But what can I show you which you haven't already read?



How is claiming you have read every comic a personal insult?

I already posted Barry's most famous feat ever and it wasn't enough for you?




And yes, it is as much canon as COIE.





Or perhaps Barry wasn't as unimpressive as you are making him out to be.



But you have already established Barry was Rogues level at average. How does he go from there to universal+ level?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So he is human level but not human levels too.

And Wally broke his hand punching Grodd as well.

Flashes are the most inconsistent top tiers ever. They can beat everyone and get beaten up by everyone. Its just how the character works.


So he is above human level, just that human level (in the physical department) is much closer to PC Barry's average as opposed to Abhi-Flash who could punch the Spectre.

You're comparing Grodd to a human And Wally has actually broken his hand punching a regular gorilla not just Grodd who is a super powered gorilla. But that was pre-Crisis so I hope you are starting to see that in the PC the flashes were weaker. Something you don't seem to be getting.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, so GL was human level as well. Good to know. How about Superman now? If we are going by lowest feats, you might want to tell us about his lowest feats as well.


Right because it's not like he has a power ring or anything; just that his constructs are weaker and his ring doesn't automatically protect him like it used to.

Actually now that you brought Superman up. He was permanently depowered at the end of the silver Age. In the Sand superman story-line, he was depowered to being 2/3 of his strength and that was evident through his showings in the bronze age.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then you shouldn't make absurd claims like Flash's average is struggling with the rogues.



"absurd claims" based on decades worth of comics. It's your comments who are absurd if you think otherwise.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I already posted Barry's most famous feat ever and it wasn't enough for you?


But you claimed that he was a "feat monster". I have a few feats in my mind but I'm curious what's yours? Surely you can't be basing your opinion on a single feat? Abhi-flash is someone who can consistently contend with Superman; punch a planet out of orbit and even beat the Spectre himself.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And yes, it is as much canon as COIE.

Or perhaps Barry wasn't as unimpressive as you are making him out to be.

But you have already established Barry was Rogues level at average. How does he go from there to universal+ level?

And Secret Origins is canon too, yet it contradicts both.

Or perhaps he was.

It's not a universal+ feat; all he did was force some of the anti matter back to the cannon. It's an impressive feat but not an abstract level like you're making out to be. And it's a feat which was right before his death; so the writers may as well have him perform something out of the ordinary before his death. Similar to what they did with Supergirl.

Originally posted by operator616
So he is above human level, just that human level (in the physical department) is much closer to PC Barry's average as opposed to Abhi-Flash who could punch the Spectre.

I already admitted that his speed was amped there.



Grodd instance happened to post crisis Wally under Johns.

Grodd also no sold several of his punches and called him soft. Barry had beaten Grodd with just punches before.

Then again Wally and Bart punched SBP with no problem just alright.



That was always how it is. Hal was koed by a tree branch smacking him and was koed by random thugs.

Even Kyle whose ring had auto protect feature was stunned by a thug smashing him over his head.

Flash was beaten by some random people in his own comic. These all happened post crisis. Low showings are there for every character.



He was still stronger than pretty much every hero post crisis or pre crisis except Captain Marvel. He could still move planets or destroy stars.

I'm eagerly awaiting how Superman was human level in bronze age though.







That's just so amusing.



Now who is putting words in my mouth? Where did I say he was able to contend with Superman?

I already concede on Spectre part. You are just harping on it needlessly.



Is it? Flash rebirth retconned it out.







Haha, all measures are taken to lowball even that.

"It wasn't impressive. He just pushed some anti matter. See how that wasn't impressive."

"He was going to die. So he was given a high feat. It doesn't counts. Just like Supergirl."

List some more reasons. They are highly amusing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Grodd instance happened to post crisis Wally under Johns.

Grodd also no sold several of his punches and called him soft. Barry had beaten Grodd with just punches before.

Then again Wally and Bart punched SBP with no problem just alright.


I was referring to punching a regular gorilla which happened pre-Crisis. Keep up.

post-Crisis Wally has KO'd Grodd with punches at least 3 times that I can recall (in #194, #221, #240). And you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are debating Pre Crisis Barry as opposed to post Crisis where he returned more powerful than ever. Also pre-Crisis Grodd was physically weaker than post-crisis from what I recall.

Post Crisis Flashes had a significantly better striking power than in the pre-Crisis era. You don't seem to get that. There was no IMP pre-Crisis and they were just physically sub-par at best.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was always how it is. Hal was koed by a tree branch smacking him and was koed by random thugs.

Even Kyle whose ring had auto protect feature was stunned by a thug smashing him over his head.

Flash was beaten by some random people in his own comic. These all happened post crisis. Low showings are there for every character.


That's besides the point. That more has to do with writer inconsistency than depowerment. Sometimes the ring protected hal even when he's KO'd. Other times it didn't even when he isn't but unaware of the danger. It's inconsistency. But in that mid 70s his ring unable to protect him was specifically attributed to him being depowered.

Actually no. Kyle for example was only ever unable to protect himself from a random bullet once in his whole series from what I remember, along with the thug smashing his head instance which you referred to. These kind of lows happened consistently to pre-Crisis Flash and pre-Crisis Hal.


Originally posted by abhilegend
He was still stronger than pretty much every hero post crisis or pre crisis except Captain Marvel. He could still move planets or destroy stars.



Don't disagree with that; just clarifying that he wasn't at his silver age level of power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is it? Flash rebirth retconned it out.


No it didn't. it "expanded" upon it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Haha, all measures are taken to lowball even that.

"It wasn't impressive. He just pushed some anti matter. See how that wasn't impressive."

"He was going to die. So he was given a high feat. It doesn't counts. Just like Supergirl."

List some more reasons. They are highly amusing.

It wasn't as impressive as you're making out to be. But it's still impressive.

Originally posted by operator616
I was referring to punching a regular gorilla which happened pre-Crisis. Keep up.

I was talking about post crisis where Wally broke his hand punching Grodd.



Tell me how much harder Wally hits than barry.

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427315_grodwar2.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427316_grodwar3.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427317_grodwar4.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427318_grodwar5.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427319_grodwar6.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427320_grodwar7.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427321_grodwar8.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427323_grodwar10.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427324_grodwar11.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427325_grodwar12.jpg

And pre crisis Grodd stalemated Kalibak in h2h. Post crisis Grodd has no feat near that level.




Funny how that works. Wally has used imp only once. And there is no pre crisis Barry allen. He is one character whose history is totally unchanged from post crisis to pre crisis.





Yes, silver age was inconsistent. We get that.



And to Wally as well. Post crisis was more consistent because they had a more strict continuity. Pre crisis was a loose continuity at best and no continuity at times. Hence more inconsistent and harder to average.






I know.





Uh, whatever you say.





Good enough for me. This discussion has run its course.

And I made that pun intentionally.

Feel free to have the last word.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I was talking about post crisis where Wally broke his hand punching Grodd.

Tell me how much harder Wally hits than barry.

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427315_grodwar2.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427316_grodwar3.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427317_grodwar4.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427318_grodwar5.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29427319_grodwar6.jpg

And pre crisis Grodd stalemated Kalibak in h2h. Post crisis Grodd has no feat near that level.


(I removed some of your scans because of an error which said they're too many scans in my post)

Is there a point you're making in posting these scans? And why don't you post what happened in the next issue, I even referenced it in my previous post.

But alright. Big deal Wally breaking his hand due to Grodd. Barry was KO'd with a piece of paper (among many lulz-worthy things I can name). Can you top that? It's funny I know, feel free to check the issue yourself if you don't believe me (Flash v1 #148).

You mean he lost and the only reason he could keep up is because of his tp. From what I remember, pre-Crisis Grodd was more of a problem to Flash because of his telepathy rather than physicality. On the other hand, Post-crisis grodd was a physical powerhouse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Funny how that works. Wally has used imp only once. And there is no pre crisis Barry allen. He is one character whose history is totally unchanged from post crisis to pre crisis.


In other news: Water is wet.

Of course he's the same character, captain obvious, but we're debating the character of that particular era, who had a different power level at least. He was less powerful.

And Wally has used IMP twice actually. But that's beside the point.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yes, silver age was inconsistent. We get that.

And to Wally as well. Post crisis was more consistent because they had a more strict continuity. Pre crisis was a loose continuity at best and no continuity at times. Hence more inconsistent and harder to average.



I rest my case because you basically admitted to everything I was saying all along.

Pre-Crisis had more low showings = their average is lower. We're done.

And pre-Crisis was quite consistent (very consistent in the Bronze Age), I could get into details if you want, but id rather not.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Good enough for me. This discussion has run its course.

And I made that pun intentionally.

Feel free to have the last word.

I don't know how I was even dragged into this kind of debate but I guess it was worth it in the end since you admitted my point all along. Next time, save us the trouble and admit it from the beginning.