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1. Standard equipment.

2. Hand-to-hand.

3. Six hours of prep.

Discuss.

Unless someone can show BW to have had better training, i say RH, RH, and no idea.
Prep is open to too much conjecture, sorry.

LOL! Jason is in Batman's class now. Kate doesn't win a single fight.

Originally posted by Zack M
LOL! Jason is in Batman's class now. Kate doesn't win a single fight.

Bane would disagree with you...

No.

Kate does have access to some DEO tech that could make this interesting. I am curious to what Red Hood has done to take him from Nightwing level to Bats. For instance Batwoman performed way better in her two on one against Bane, than Jason did.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Kate does have access to some DEO tech that could make this interesting. I am curious to what Red Hood has done to take him from Nightwing level to Bats. For instance Batwoman performed way better in her two on one against Bane, than Jason did.

Jason defeated Batman in an issue of Red Hood. He also did better against Cassandra Cain than Dick Grayson, and owned Lady Shiva. Among other insane feats, like slipping away (Ninja style) from Supergirl, who was impressed with his stealth.

Also got destroyed by venomless Bane, don't forget that.

Meh, Jason doesn't have much low feats. And that wasn't a low feat.

Didnt know RH was THAT high up the stat ladder...

Yeah, he's done other insane feats such as cancelling out someone's immortality/powers through a punch, courtesy of AllCaste training.

He's also survived being thrown through a building by Frankenstein and managed to take Lobo down with a knee attack.

He's also going to fight Artemis in the next issue. Hopefully it's a good fight.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/AS_zpsso0saug4.jpg

Remember when Batman slipped away from Gotham and Gotham Girl? Well, here is Red Hood's version of that.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/RH_zps4kbx3gej.jpg

And Ducra stated that she can train Jason to fight when he's unconscious and be the best assassin in the world.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/DA_zpsrk19iyop.jpg

Originally posted by Zack M
Jason defeated Batman in an issue of Red Hood.

Are you referring to the one panel flashback in Red Hood and the Outlaws #6?
B/c the actually fight is never shown.

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29552243_5052856.jpg

To give Jason a clean win over Bruce w/o knowing any context and to suggest that this "win" means he is now on Bruce level and above Nightwing is a very shaky argument. Especially considering how well Dick did against Bruce in their "no hold barred match."

2-6gTS1dM2U

Originally posted by Zack M
He also did better against Cassandra Cain than Dick Grayson, and owned Lady Shiva.

Dick also did much better against Bronze Tiger than Jason, owned Midnighter and beat Grifter.

Originally posted by Zack M
Among other insane feats, like slipping away (Ninja style) from Supergirl, who was impressed with his stealth.

Even Pre -52 young Nightwing was able to pull a stealthy Batman on Batman

I don't really see how Jason is above Dick now, they are at the same level or slight edge to Dick in strictly hand 2 hand only.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. But Jason did have the edge, even if it was off panel. Still impressive, since it was Batman.

When did Night wing get the upper hand against bronze tiger? Jason fought the weretiger. Who had enhanced durability and stats.

Dick also got owned cassandra cain, Jason didn't.

BTW, slipping away from supergirl>>> slipping away from Batman.

And he didn't own Midnighter.

Originally posted by Zack M
BTW, slipping away from supergirl>>> slipping away from Batman.

Even Supergirl might disagree with that, tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Even Supergirl might disagree with that, tbh.

I'm talking about her not spotting Jason, despite her super hearing and sight. Overall, that is more impressive.

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm talking about her not spotting Jason, despite her super hearing and sight. Overall, that is more impressive.

Honestly just seems like you're rephrasing what you originally said. In which case, my reply would be the same as I made earlier.

Ok, don't see how the NW incident is more impressive.

Originally posted by Zack M
And he didn't own Midnighter.

lol whatever you wish to call an one arm strike with a baby in other hand that sends Midnighter quickly to the ground

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558347_nightwingownage.jpg

Dick also performed well in the actual fight especially considering that Midnighter ambushed him from the back in the beginning, and prepped for the encounter. Grayson 6

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558349_dgvsmd.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558352_dgvsmd1.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558356_dgvsmd2.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558359_dgvsmd3.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558363_dgvsmd4.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558367_dgvsmd5.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558372_dgvsmd6.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558374_dgvsmd7.jpg



But we don't know if its impressive b/c we don't know if Batman just tripped on his cape and fell and Jason finding him like that pull out a gun. But seriously we don't know if Bruce was holding back trying to reach Jason like he has done before or what the circumstances were.

What we do know is that Bruce and Dick had a fight so intense that a motorcycle was 1-shotted, and Bruce gave up before Dick. So Dick's New 52 fight with Bruce is much more impressive than Jason's off panel advantage.

Originally posted by Supermutant
lol whatever you wish to call an one arm strike with a baby in other hand that sends Midnighter quickly to the ground

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558347_nightwingownage.jpg

Dick also performed well in the actual fight especially considering that Midnighter ambushed him from the back in the beginning, and prepped for the encounter. Grayson 6

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558349_dgvsmd.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558352_dgvsmd1.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558356_dgvsmd2.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558359_dgvsmd3.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558363_dgvsmd4.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558367_dgvsmd5.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558372_dgvsmd6.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29558374_dgvsmd7.jpg



But we don't know if its impressive b/c we don't know if Batman just tripped on his cape and fell and Jason finding him like that pull out a gun. But seriously we don't know if Bruce was holding back trying to reach Jason like he has done before or what the circumstances were.

What we do know is that Bruce and Dick had a fight so intense that a motorcycle was 1-shotted, and Bruce gave up before Dick. So Dick's New 52 fight with Bruce is much more impressive than Jason's off panel advantage.

Why would you post that scan? Midnighter didn't want to kill Grayson and he NEVER defeated him in HTH. Never.

Grayson also had Spyral tech enhancements that messed with Midnighter's senses. He would have went down, if it weren't for that, and Grayson admitted as much.

Tripped on his cape? LMAO. Come on, SM.

BTW, Grayson owning Grifter isn't all that impressive, considering that he has no HTH skills to speak of and he didn't use the fullest of his TP/TK abilities.

This has been really informative; Love the scans.

Originally posted by Zack M
Dick also got owned cassandra cain, Jason didn't.

It sure looks like Jason got owned by her until his upgraded gear gave him a brief edge. Also she wasn't even trying to fight him but protect him.

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29559749_red-hood-vs-cassandra-cain-1.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29559750_red-hood-vs-cassandra-cain-2.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29559751_red-hood-vs-cassandra-cain-3.jpg

Now compare that to Dick's short scuffle with her in which he doesn't have his normal Nightwing gear.

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29559951_4842295-7906811541-batma.jpg

So Jason with upgraded armor did marginally better against a holding back Cassandra Cain than Dick w/out Nightwing armor and gear. To suggest this combined with an off panel advantage over Batman puts the Red Hood above Nightwing is inaccurate.

Jason did do better. True, he had armor, but cass didn't pin him down so easily as she did Grayson.

Originally posted by Zack M
When did Night wing get the upper hand against bronze tiger? Jason fought the weretiger. Who had enhanced durability and stats.

Grayson #18, Dick handily controlled the fight against Bronze Tiger. No it wasn't weretiger but it was still New 52 BT and still impressive. When has BT not been able to even get one strike in a fight? His only offense was one hold that Dick quickly countered and flipped him.

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/29561231_dick.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/29561234_dick2.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/29561240_dick4.jpg


Originally posted by Zack M
BTW, slipping away from supergirl>>> slipping away from Batman.

I wasn't even going for Dick really impressive stealth feats. I was just showing how using stealth to move unnoticed isn't something that only Jason can do. Dick being doing that even from a teenager, most of the former bat sidekicks have impressive feats of stealth. Again I failed to see how that put Jason above Dick, when pre-52 Dick slipped away from Superman.

BTW, slipping away from Superman >>> slipping away from Supergirl.

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29565972_aosann4-detectivewing3.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29565974_aosann4-detectivewing4.jpg

Jason, Tim, and Babs were unable to detect Dick at their meeting in the batcave.

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29566022_pcDNT7cH8mw.jpghttp://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29566021_JsjPNGCHrqI.jpg

That wasn't weretiger Bronze. Jason got brushed aside by that version.

And isn't that Pre-Flashpoint Grayson? Are those feats still usable?

I still think Red hood>Grayson, at least in the DCnU.

Pretty sure Pre 52 fears no longer apply...

Originally posted by Zack M
Why would you post that scan? Midnighter didn't want to kill Grayson and he NEVER defeated him in HTH. Never.

Grayson also had Spyral tech enhancements that messed with Midnighter's senses. He would have went down, if it weren't for that, and Grayson admitted as much.

Tripped on his cape? LMAO. Come on, SM.

I never said Grayson defeated him. I said Grayson owned him knocking him to the ground w/baby in other hand, and performed well against Mids in the actual fight. I also never said that Mid was trying to kill Grayson.

So its alright for Red Hood to use alien tech and All Caste gear, but Dick using Spyral tech too his advantage is a negative?

By the way when Bruce got serious on Jason (in their only full on panel fight) he put him down long enough for a forum victory. Then he clearly allowed Jason three free shots and Jason still couldn't put him down.

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901126_2279855.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901127_2264304.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901128_6193158.jpg

So I think NW is still a lil above Jason.

Originally posted by Zack M
And isn't that Pre-Flashpoint Grayson? Are those feats still usable?

Only Dick sneaking away from Superman is Pre-Flashpoint.

Who knows, but I'm not going to forget/erase what Dick has done to make Jason look better.

Plus Battle for the Cowl is canon for the whole Bat Family considering Green Lantern and Bat Family's timeline was barely affected by the New-52 reboot, in fact, during Nightwing #1, Grayson claims he spent 1 year filling the spot for Bruce as Batman when he was away, and the Battle for the Cowl is the story which goes prior to Dick becoming Batman, so it needed to happen for Dick to become Batman, meaning it should be canon or unaffected...

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29901137_4571203-nightwingbatman.jpg

This link about DC's canon history is interesting as well.

http://comicbook.com/2015/05/01/dc-comics-just-made-their-entire-history-officially-canon

Originally posted by riv6672
Pretty sure Pre 52 fears no longer apply... why not? Everything is canon again after Convergence.

Originally posted by Supermutant
I never said Grayson defeated him. I said Grayson owned him knocking him to the ground w/baby in other hand, and performed well against Mids in the actual fight. I also never said that Mid was trying to kill Grayson.

So its alright for Red Hood to use alien tech and All Caste gear, but Dick using Spyral tech too his advantage is a negative?

By the way when Bruce got serious on Jason (in their only full on panel fight) he put him down long enough for a forum victory. Then he clearly allowed Jason three free shots and Jason still couldn't put him down.

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901126_2279855.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901127_2264304.jpg http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29901128_6193158.jpg

So I think NW is still a lil above Jason.

That's not a good feat to post, especially since Midnighter didn't want to kill him. They've actually became good friends.

My point still stands, though. Midnighter IS above the likes of Grayson and even Batman. His feats in the DCnU have been highly impressive.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Only Dick sneaking away from Superman is Pre-Flashpoint.

Who knows, but I'm not going to forget/erase what Dick has done to make Jason look better.

Plus Battle for the Cowl is canon for the whole Bat Family considering Green Lantern and Bat Family's timeline was barely affected by the New-52 reboot, in fact, during Nightwing #1, Grayson claims he spent 1 year filling the spot for Bruce as Batman when he was away, and the Battle for the Cowl is the story which goes prior to Dick becoming Batman, so it needed to happen for Dick to become Batman, meaning it should be canon or unaffected...

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29901137_4571203-nightwingbatman.jpg

This link about DC's canon history is interesting as well.

http://comicbook.com/2015/05/01/dc-comics-just-made-their-entire-history-officially-canon

The whole Batfamily continuity has been murky. The Batman we see isn't Pre-Flashpoint Batman, it's another, alternate Batman.

Originally posted by marwash22
why not? Everything is canon again after Convergence.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back. DCnU Batman is acting like he's never heard of him.

Originally posted by Zack M
That's not a good feat to post, especially since Midnighter didn't want to kill him. They've actually became good friends.

It's an excellent feat to post b/c Dick impressed Midnighter with his skills. They weren't good friends initially.



That point has never been in contention by me. Jason > Dick is very much in contention.

Originally posted by Zack M
Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back. DCnU Batman is acting like he's never heard of him. Dr. Manhattan erased 10 years of history.

Originally posted by Supermutant
It's an excellent feat to post b/c Dick impressed Midnighter with his skills. They weren't good friends initially.



That point has never been in contention by me. Jason > Dick is very much in contention.

He was surprised that he got sucker shot, not because of his skill. We've seen what happens when Grayson fights Midnighter and it's not pretty. And this is with Spyral tech.

I still see it as Jason>Grayson, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Originally posted by marwash22
Dr. Manhattan erased 10 years of history.

I don't think it was confirmed to be Manhattan, has it?

Jason sucks.

Originally posted by Zack M
He was surprised that he got sucker shot, not because of his skill. We've seen what happens when Grayson fights Midnighter and it's not pretty. And this is with Spyral tech.

I still see it as Jason>Grayson, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

what a surprise.... the Mutant guy once again didnt get the context. its ok he does it all the time with his fact twisting

Originally posted by Dareangel
what a surprise.... the Mutant guy once again didnt get the context. its ok he does it all the time with his fact twisting

Still being a fool I see. And judging by your posts, you don't even read DC.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Still being a fool I see. And judging by your posts, you don't even read DC.

oh i read DC perfectly fine. the thing is i am not reading DC like you with my fanboy glasses on. maybe if you stop twisting feats and facts you will get more credibility. until then you will continue to be a joke... a not funny one.

Originally posted by Dareangel
oh i read DC perfectly fine.

Originally posted by Dareangel
specially the one where killer croc the skilless brick grabs wildcat and crack his ribs while wildcat is helpless.

Originally posted by Dareangel
deathstroke most of the time gets bested by nightwing.

Originally posted by Dareangel
i misswrote what i intended to write.

Nice job "reading DC."

Originally posted by Zack M
He was surprised that he got sucker shot, not because of his skill. We've seen what happens when Grayson fights Midnighter and it's not pretty. And this is with Spyral tech.

I still see it as Jason>Grayson, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Zack M
Midnighter (DCnU) has similar feats and is faster than Gambit, yet Grayson held his own. Hell, he even fooled his computer brain, which is even more of a insane feat.

ha concession accepted Nightwing > Red Hood

Originally posted by Supermutant
ha concession accepted Nightwing > Red Hood

Jason fought and killed one of the Untitled. Untitled >>>Midnighter.