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Complete no-limits fallacy to believe that this is the case to begin with, but should anyone require the proof, I just posted the following in another thread, explaining how Nihilus/Traya's Drain works and how it isn't an instakill:

It's not Severing in the sense of your average Sever Force, but it's Severing you from life itself as well. This is mentioned more than once in KotOR II:





There's a reason why Meetra wasn't Draining people when they were alive, but only doing so once they died - because this technique feeds on death, not life. It requires you to cause death by Severing connections between life and the Force, and then feeding on the death(s) that occurs as a consequence. This is also why this ability is distinct from other versions of Drain displayed in the mythos.

It stands to reason that Nihilus can't do this Severing against beings who are more powerful than him. The no-limits fallacy argument is further disproven by the game, since Traya survived Nihilus' Drain despite him Draining to kill.



And the case with Traya also links back to what I said above, since the KotORCG claims that her powers were drained by her apprentices, yet she claims in KotOR II that she was "stripped of her powers". It was an incomplete process of the quotes I provided above.

We can add to this the fact that the Assassins use an identical technique to Nihilus, yet they never instakilled anyone. This is because they're not strong enough to do so, again proving that it isn't the technique that kills but the power of the user:



To all the people who think that Nihilus (or even Traya) can instakill anybody with their Drain bar Surik, you're dead wrong, as per KotOR II. They can do it, if they're strong enough to completely carry out the process I explained above. If they can't do that, their Drain will only have a partial effect, similar to the Assassins. They'll still get stronger, and their opponents presumably weaker, but nothing more - certainly not an instakill.

Meetra, Nihilus and the Sith assassins fed on people when they were alive though?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meetra, Nihilus and the Sith assassins fed on people when they were alive though?

I already explained that (somewhat) in the OP. It's either an incomplete process (ie. Nihilus v Kreia) or a weaker usage of it (Assassins v all). Nihilus' Drain on his crew is just the "siphoning of wills" that the other Wounds in the Force in the game, the Exile and Malachor V, also exhibited. Of course, in Nihilus' case, there's also a corruptive influence, as with Malachor V.

Meetra and Nihilus feed off death, that's repeatedly stated in the game, including the first quote in the OP. The only other Wound in the Force in the game, Malachor V, is also described by Kreia as feeding on death:

I shouldn't have to do this, really, but just proof that Surik, Nihilus and Malachor V, the only explicitly stated Wounds in the Force in the game, feed on/off death:

Meetra Surik:



Nihilus:



Malachor V:

Originally posted by SunRazer
It stands to reason that Nihilus can't do this Severing against beings who are more powerful than him. The no-limits fallacy argument is further disproven by the game, since Traya survived Nihilus' Drain despite him Draining to kill.

Nihilus drained Katar though. An entire planet of Force sensitives, and the best of what was left of the Jedi including master Vandar.

Which also ties in with either Kavar or Zez Kai Ell's quote about the threat not being strong enough to confront them openly.

As for Sion's quote, it never made sense, which is why it was probably cut out of the game.

Even if Sion and Nihilus assumed Kreia was dead and left, didn't they notice that her corpse was no longer in the Trayus core. Did no one else in the academy notice when she dusted herself off and went to to hangar to get a ship?

Being fair, Nihilus' draining of the masters on Katarr is essentially a cheapshot since none of them were actively trying to defend themselves.

I doubt Kreia is more powerful than the combined power of dozens of the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order, at the time, and she managed to resist to the point that she didn't die, she only got severed and later regained her power.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Nihilus drained Katar though. An entire planet of Force sensitives, and the best of what was left of the Jedi including master Vandar.

Which also ties in with either Kavar or Zez Kai Ell's quote about the threat not being strong enough to confront them openly.

Which is why they died. They weren't powerful enough to stand up to Traya/Nihilus' Drain. That doesn't mean that every single character in the mythos would die instantly to it.



It's in the game files. They just didn't include it because the game couldn't be finished in time. Not to mention that even if you are using things from the game, the first thing Sion mentions when he faces Kreia again is how hard she is to kill... implying again that they had failed despite their intent.



They obviously did assume she was dead. As for why nobody else could Sense her, Atris explains that since Kreia had the Force stripped from her, it actually made it harder for others to sense her. Of course, that doesn't mean it's impossible to sense her, since she's still a practical non-Force sensitive. It's probable that she nearly died and only awoke after they had left.

But I'm not here to indulge theories on backstory content. This stuff doesn't disprove the crux of my post, which is that these powers aren't instakills.

Originally posted by MythLord
Being fair, Nihilus' draining of the masters on Katarr is essentially a cheapshot since none of them were actively trying to defend themselves.

I doubt Kreia is more powerful than the combined power of dozens of the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order, at the time, and she managed to resist to the point that she didn't die, she only got severed and later regained her power.

Kreia couldn't defend herself either. Which is exactly why she talks about how the technique has no defense in the scene where she's getting ousted.

I'm not saying that Traya's necessarily more powerful than all the Miraluka and Jedi combined (though it's not that ludicrous, since the Force signatures of singular beings have outweighed huge populations before), but that she survived Nihilus' Drain is impressive regardless.

On a side note, this might lend some credence to the notion that "there is no defense" against Drain, but still, Nihilus and Traya etc. can't one-shot whomever they like.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is why they died. They weren't powerful enough to stand up to Traya/Nihilus' Drain. That doesn't mean that every single character in the mythos would die instantly to it.

Well, Exar Kun wouldn't!

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole.

Originally posted by SunRazer It's in the game files. They just didn't include it because the game couldn't be finished in time. Not to mention that even if you are using things from the game, the first thing Sion mentions when he faces Kreia again is how hard she is to kill... implying again that they had failed despite their intent.

"I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled. I suffered indignities..."

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well, Exar Kun wouldn't!

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole.

That's obvious, but it doesn't preclude his Drain from not being an instakill, lol.



No, that's not the quote I meant, lol. It was this:



They were obviously surprised to learn that she survived. Not sure how the other quote didn't make sense, anyway.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well, Exar Kun wouldn't!

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole."



Traya survived because like Meetra she could survive that experience. She has the ability to feign death so it's possible she used that to trick Sion and N. into thinking she'd died.

Nihilus' drain basically is an insta-kill. There's no defense against it, it's destructive capabilities are almost unequaled and even if you manage to survive you're stripped of the Force and defenseless. The idea that people more powerful than him could block it is total bunk imo. The only beings I'd buy that from is the One's purely because they're literal gods.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Traya survived because like Meetra she could survive that experience.

Umm... what? Traya goes out of her way to talk about how Surik is unique. Surik was Severed further than anyone, including Traya, and even she admitted that. She even talks about how she "sought to understand" how Surik could give up the Force and still live, which proves that the circumstances weren't even remotely the same in her case.

You're reaching desperately.



She couldn't even TK her saber on a colossal geyser of DS energies. What makes you think that she can successfully bypass the Force Senses of Sion and Nihilus (who were right in front of her) as a non-Force sensitive, lol?

She was just brought to the brink of death itself and miraculously survived. The game files have her vomiting blood after she gets hit by Sion.



Nowhere is it stated that it's an instakill. The only reason you'd think that is because it's killed the life on Katarr, who were simply too weak to resist his power. Traya's survival is proof that it doesn't kill all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Umm... what? Traya goes out of her way to talk about how Surik is unique. Surik was Severed further than anyone, including Traya, and even she admitted that. She even talks about how she "sought to understand" how Surik could give up the Force and still live, which proves that the circumstances weren't even remotely the same in her case.

You're reaching desperately.

Surik is unique in that she severed herself from the Force willingly, enough to create a wound. Traya wasn't and she sought to regain her Force abilities. Despite her hatred of the Force she was never able to actually reject it. The fact is that Traya was stripped of the Force and didn't die from the experience. She was hit by the same attack as that which killed so those on Katarr and the Jedi Council Members.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She couldn't even TK her saber on a colossal geyser of DS energies. What makes you think that she can successfully bypass the Force Senses of Sion and Nihilus (who were right in front of her) as a non-Force sensitive, lol?

She was just brought to the brink of death itself and miraculously survived. The game files have her vomiting blood after she gets hit by Sion.

She'd just had the Force stripped from her, I doubt they'd have felt much of anything from her regardless. I never said it was a force ability she was using.

So whats your explanation of her surviving? How did they not tell?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is it stated that it's an instakill. The only reason you'd think that is because it's killed the life on Katarr, who were simply too weak to resist his power. Traya's survival is proof that it doesn't kill all.

It also killed the Jedi Council Members. Like I said, it doesn't matter if Traya survived or that others plausibly could as well. She was stripped of the Force and they would be too. Nihilus would snuff them like a candle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Surik is unique in that she severed herself from the Force willingly, enough to create a wound.

Which is why your comparison between her and Traya makes no sense.



Right. She was Severed to be a pretty standard extent.



Traya talks about how that's incomparable to the Exile's experience at the end of the game. And plus, there's a lot of others who have survived being stripped of the Force - Ulic Qel-Droma, Jacen Solo, Ben Solo, Kyle Katarn, etc.



Which is just proof of how powerful she is.



I don't know for sure. I'm just saying that as a non-Force sensitive, Kreia wouldn't have been able to use Hibernation Trance, which is essentially a Healing power. But as Atris said, it's harder to sense the Force from someone who has been Severed in the past.

KotOR II is filled with plot discrepancies. I'm hardly eager to add one more to the stack.



There's a point at which Nihilus can't do this (ie. Sidious, Vitiate, Abeloth, etc.) - Traya explains how it works. You literally have to Sever the guy's connection to life and the Force, and feed on the death that is caused as a result. Nihilus obviously can't do that to beings more powerful than himself. The fact that he's killed countless weaker beings doesn't negate that, lol.

Very nice therad Nova
The only more useful/better one, I can think of, is Silvers Mace vs Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is why your comparison between her and Traya makes no sense.

Traya's connection to the Force would still be severed. Merely severing the connections between life and the Force doesn't automatically kill you unless you require the Force to such an extent that you die without a connection to it. For Meetra, she was able to survive without the connection between herself (life) and the Force. Traya did basically the same thing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya talks about how that's incomparable to the Exile's experience at the end of the game. And plus, there's a lot of others who have survived being stripped of the Force - Ulic Qel-Droma, Jacen Solo, Ben Solo, Kyle Katarn, etc.

Not to the same extent of what this technique does to someone.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is just proof of how powerful she is.

How powerful she is is irrelevant. She was rendered absolutely powerless, her survival had nothing to do with the force after that occurred.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know for sure. I'm just saying that as a non-Force sensitive, Kreia wouldn't have been able to use Hibernation Trance, which is essentially a Healing power. But as Atris said, it's harder to sense the Force from someone who has been Severed in the past.

KotOR II is filled with plot discrepancies. I'm hardly eager to add one more to the stack.

Could be Kreia can do something similar to HT without needing to use the force. Afterall she does it at the start of the game when her connection would be extremely mild if not nonexistant iirc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's a point at which Nihilus can't do this (ie. Sidious, Vitiate, Abeloth, etc.)

No, there isn't. You're just assuming there is based on nothing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You literally have to Sever the guy's connection to life and the Force, and feed on the death that is caused as a result.

A technique against which there is no defense. Power cannot come into play here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nihilus obviously can't do that to beings more powerful than himself.

Why not?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that he's killed countless weaker beings doesn't negate that, lol.

Personally I doubt Sidious is more powerful than the entire council on Katarr but ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Traya's connection to the Force would still be severed. Merely severing the connections between life and the Force doesn't automatically kill you unless you require the Force to such an extent that you die without a connection to it. For Meetra, she was able to survive without the connection between herself (life) and the Force. Traya did basically the same thing.

Traya didn't do anything close. She admits it at the end:





Traya didn't survive that either.



The fact that she wasn't completely severed is proof that she resisted the technique to a degree.



It seems to me as if she really was knocked unconscious and brought to the brink of death. They probably assumed that she couldn't have survived and left.



She exhibits TK, Sense, and TP, so yeah, she does have powers. Not to mention that the Exile regained her Force connection by siphoning it off Kreia, so obviously Kreia had a Force connection by this point.



Based on Traya's survival, which is more than what you have for your no-limits fallacy theory.



She clearly didn't suffer the full effects of the technique, even though it was intended by Nihilus that she did. There's no other explanation for it other than her simply being strong enough to do so.

You're dogmatically trying to avoid accepting my theory, pretty clearly because you don't want it to be true. Otherwise, seeing as it fits all the jigsaw pieces together, then there's no reason to not accept it.

There are things in the game that defy your theory, but none that defy mine.



Because you can't sever the connections between one's life and the Force if that person is stronger than you, lol. If you can show me an example of that happening, then I'll believe you.



Traya was, so...

Is Traya surviving a bad feat for Nihilus or a good one for her?

Originally posted by Azronger
Is Traya surviving a bad feat for Nihilus or a good one for her?

The latter. Nihilus still wiped out Katarr. That just means Traya compares favorably to Katarr, nothing more.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya didn't do anything close. She admits it at the end:

Which is why I said that Meetra was unique in that she chose to do that to herself. It's not like Meetra being a wound is unique because Nihilus exists.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya didn't survive that either.

Compelling argument. Consider this counterpoint though: Yes she did?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that she wasn't completely severed is proof that she resisted the technique to a degree.

She was tho.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems to me as if she really was knocked unconscious and brought to the brink of death. They probably assumed that she couldn't have survived and left.

Ok.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She exhibits TK, Sense, and TP, so yeah, she does have powers. Not to mention that the Exile regained her Force connection by siphoning it off Kreia, so obviously Kreia had a Force connection by this point.

Pretty sure she does all of that after the very start of the game when both her and Meetra have started to regain their connections.

Regardless, wasn't Meetra also using a Hibernation Trance without a connection when you wake up in the kolto tank?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on Traya's survival, which is more than what you have for your no-limits fallacy theory.

Traya's survival can be explained in other ways than what you're suggesting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She clearly didn't suffer the full effects of the technique, even though it was intended by Nihilus that she did. There's no other explanation for it other than her simply being strong enough to do so.

You're dogmatically trying to avoid accepting my theory, pretty clearly because you don't want it to be true. Otherwise, seeing as it fits all the jigsaw pieces together, then there's no reason to not accept it.

There are things in the game that defy your theory, but none that defy mine.

She didn't die. That doesn't prove anything.

You're raving. You really think this is something new to me? I've had this argument a dozen times in the past and it never gets any traction. "Nihilus cant kill sidious cuz he cant kill traya waa!" Please. All you're proving is your inability to accept that your headcanon's aren't real.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because you can't sever the connections between one's life and the Force if that person is stronger than you, lol.

Why not? You're just saying the same thing again. Explain why you cannot do that.

If I had a knife that can bypass any defense and then stabbed Superman in the chest with it, Superman would still get stabbed. His strength is irrelevant because he has no way of defending against my knife.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya was, so...

Concession accepted.

I'll respond tomorrow. But you're getting more desperate with each post.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The latter. Nihilus still wiped out Katarr. That just means Traya compares favorably to Katarr, nothing more.

Katarr was a cheap-shot, though. Does Kreia actually have any feats that would put her on par hundreds of Jedi Masters collectively? Or is this one of those cases where the individual supposedly possesses the strength of hundreds of Force sensitives, but has really underwhelming feats (e.g. Vitiate)?

Why would I be desperate? Like I've said, the attack is unblockable. You're just fan canoning that someone stronger could ignore the drain based on nothing. And even if you survive you're rendered powerless. As ever Nihilus' drain stands as nigh unbeatable.

Also Traya isn't > a hundred Jedi and a world of force sensitives, lol.

Personally I do think that Vitiate and Nox could plausibly tank it though, since their powers come from other sources than merely their own. They'd be severely weakened tho.

Why would she have to be stronger than them collectively in the first place?

It's not like Katarr was instantly wiped from existence or that all those Jedi combined their powers to combat Nihilus. The fact that Traya is alive just shows incompetence on Nihilus and Scion's, as if he needed more showings of that, part than it is of her power in comparison to an entire planet of Force Sensitives. That is beyond ridiculous.

This is all nice and good razer but as others have shown, the only one who could defend against Nihilus was another wound in the force. Kreia couldn't, Nihilus' slaves on the ravagers couldn't, entire planets couldn't. So in short, no.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would she have to be stronger than them collectively in the first place?

Nova said it's a good feat for her, but I fail to see how it would be unless she's wields more Force strength than all those Jedi who died on Katarr combined. And I don't see any proof of that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The fact that Traya is alive just shows incompetence on Nihilus and Scion's

If you speak on the scene when both confront Kreia, to be fair they hadn't wanted her dead. She was defenseless after the Nihilus's attack, Sion kicked her around for a bit and there was nothing she could do about it. If they'd wanted her dead, she'd have been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxcJugMe_Y

Traya is down for the count. Wanna argue that it's impressive for an old woman to still breathe after that, go right ahead, though let's not pretend she was in great shape. Now, tell me what stopped those guys from putting a lightsaber through her if they wanted to.

Traya's narration makes it clear, they humiliated her and threw her out.

They clearly wanted her dead, which is brought up quite a bit, including the very first scene Sion shows up in.

I am waiting for someone to either succeed or fail at debunking this -- preferably Ant -- and then I shall make my judgement. mmm

There's no need to debunk anything though.

Yes there is. At least Traya living, must be explained.

Sure thing, sock #5 for the day

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not saying that Traya's necessarily more powerful than all the Miraluka and Jedi combined (though it's not that ludicrous, since the Force signatures of singular beings have outweighed huge populations before), but that she survived Nihilus' Drain is impressive regardless.

Well, if that kind of Drain works similar to Force sever, is it possbile, that Nihilus needed Sion only to force Kreia to split her attention between both of them? Which could lowered her guard in the Force against a single attack of each of them? Which enabled Nihilus to Force push her and stun her for a moment, then they could sever her off, and she was alreeady beaten?

How Traya compares to the population of Katarr is in of itself fairly irrelevant. I don't have time to post an essay right now, but she's living proof of Nihilus' inability to just one-shot anybody. I'll respond to specific people when I get back from work.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus' drain basically is an insta-kill. There's no defense against it, it's destructive capabilities are almost unequaled and even if you manage to survive you're stripped of the Force and defenseless. The idea that people more powerful than him could block it is total bunk imo. The only beings I'd buy that from is the One's purely because they're literal gods. Lmao.

Nihilus didn't use his big boy drain on Traya.

XpO__IJra4o

1:08 we see Nihilus attempt to use his big boy drain on the Exile, with it failing because she was a Wound.

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55 or so seconds in we see that this is not what Nihilus did to Traya.

Furthermore, we know from the game that others can sever one's tie to the Force.

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5:10, the remaining Jedi council confirm they can sever people from the Force, just like Nihilus did to Traya. Furthermore, we see the form the big boy drain takes when Traya uses it to kill them at 8:42. Like when Nihilus used it, it took the form of a Force Drain power in-game. I don't know why it was purple, but IIRC that is the same form it takes when the Exile uses it if they choose to kill a master. Could have just been a conscious choice of differing color schemes between Nihilus and the Exile, don't know.

I mean, where is the evidence that Nihilus used his big boy drain to kill Traya? Why would the attempted draining of Traya be the only instance we see of it that doesn't come with the Force Drain animation?

Also, although that flowery "feeds on the death it causes" description is nice and all, doesn't it sort of seem like bullshit?

Nihilus' big boy drain is explicitly the same thing as what the sith assassins do and what Surik does with her party (drawing on their lives). If the technique feeds on death, why isn't Surik's party dead? How can the sith assassins feed off the Force power of others without killing you?

Now, if one wants to argue that saying Nihilus can one shot anyone with his big boy drain is a no-limits fallacy that's whatever, but there's no real reason to think he used it on Traya, nor is there any real evidence he needs to kill someone to use it.

Razer's point isn't that one needs kill the target for the drain to function, but merely that this technique, when fully performed, results in the death of the target. Ergo any expression of this technique that does not do so is in fact a half measure. An incomplete application.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Also, although that flowery "feeds on the death it causes" description is nice and all, doesn't it sort of seem like bullshit?

How so? KotOR II is full off unique Force concepts. It's not bullshit within KotOR II itself. I'll leave you to decide whether or not it's bullshit in the grand scheme of continuity.



Because it's not the complete version. Nihilus' power represents the pinnacle of the technique, which is what allows you to actually sever your opponents and feed on the ensuing death. The assassins wield a primitive version of the technique, which they obviously can't complete against Force users of any respectable caliber. That's why they're not killing anything at all despite Nihilus regularly doing so.



The KotORCG makes it abundantly clear that Traya was the one who taught Nihilus how to devour worlds (ie. Katarr), and the irony was that Nihilus ended up using those same teachings on her.



It was Drain, just an incomplete application of it. That's why Traya was mostly but not completely severed.



He doesn't need to kill someone to use it. He needs to kill someone to complete it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why I said that Meetra was unique in that she chose to do that to herself. It's not like Meetra being a wound is unique because Nihilus exists.

Nihilus didn't become a Wound in the Force by Severing himself, and both the game and KotORCG make it abundantly clear that Nihilus and the Exile's Wounds are different in nature - the latter source going so far as to claim that they're polar opposites.



Nope. The technique was never fully carried out against her, since she was still able to regain her connection to the Force.

If it helps, let me word it like this - using Drain is not an instant-kill, but completing it is, since, well, they're dead if you complete it.



No, she wasn't. She later regained her connection to the Force and admitted that she wasn't completely severed.



Yes, that's my point. Kreia had already regained some of her powers by the time the game started.

And no, Meetra wasn't using a Hibernation Trance when she woke up. T3 stabilized her with medical supplies and she was brought to the kolto facility to make a full recovery.



It's not explained in the game at all. But that's besides the point. We don't need to explain it for me to prove my point.



It proves that Nihilus didn't fully carry out the process of Drain against her, yeah.



They must have failed to bring up all this evidence, then.

All this time, you've still failed to prove that Nihilus' Drain instantly kills anything he even tries to use it on. My point is that his usages don't always fully succeed, or succeed at all.



This isn't head-canon. It's evidence from the game. What you're showing, on the other hand, is blatant denial of evidence from both the game and KotORCG, which to me, seems like you don't want your head-canons to be challenged.



For the same reason that Exar Kun resisted Odan-Urr's Sever Force and Nox withstood Paladius' Sever Force. They were just stronger. If someone's connection to the Force is beyond your ability to sever, then it just doesn't happen. In this case, you're not only severing that, but their (or their Force connection's) connection to life itself.



The stab itself doesn't kill anyone. It's the blood loss/internal punctures that do so, and when you stab Superman, that doesn't happen. So you can plunge your knife into his chest, but it does nothing. Thanks for proving my point.

Nihilus can try to use Drain against stronger beings, he just won't be successful in carrying it out.



Yours? Yes, it is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would I be desperate?

As a strong supporter of the theory that I've just debunked, why wouldn't you be?



Which doesn't mean it can't be resisted.



What's great is that you can't prove that it's an instakill and you're falling back on deflecting my points as fan-canon in spite of the abundant evidence from both the game and supporting material (KotORCG) in my favor.

Nihilus can use Drain on whoever he likes. It won't kill them unless he finishes the process, which he didn't against Traya since she wasn't completely severed from the Force and certainly not severed from life. He did against Katarr and Traya did against the Council, because their targets not only died but ended up being absences in the Force, since they were completely severed from it.



The evidence in your favor is outstanding.



You said she's more powerful than the Council on the planet, which I agreed with because it was just Vandar, Zhar and Dorak. Hardly beyond Vrook/Kavar/Zez by much, if at all.

Stronger than millions of Miraluka and nearly a hundred Jedi? Obviously not.



This isn't particularly distinct from my style of argument, so by your logic, it's fan canon.

Originally posted by NemeBro


I mean, where is the evidence that Nihilus used his big boy drain to kill Traya? Why would the attempted draining of Traya be the only instance we see of it that doesn't come with the Force Drain animation?

Missed this earlier (my response to the rest of your post is the last post on the last page), but regarding why there was no animation - it's probably off-panel.

And no, it's not the only instance of it being done off-panel. The very video you linked with the Masters explaining the Exile's condition proves otherwise. In it, they reveal that the Exile has unconsciously fed on everyone they killed to become stronger. That's never represented through an animation, which is why when Sion and Traya die (or when any Force user dies after the Council's revelation scene), the Drain effect doesn't show up either. The Exile already knows about it.

The reason we get the purple tendrils in the DS version where she kills the Masters is because she doesn't know what it is, and Kreia explains it to her. Moreover, the script reveals that this was only supposed to happen the first time she killed a Master, which makes sense since for some reason the dialogue options are all "what happened?" even if it's the second or third time you've killed a Master. It's actually an in-game glitch for it to be happening multiple times - it's only supposed to happen once, the first time you kill a Master - and only because you don't know what it is yet.

All this would explain Zez-Kai Ell?'s remark in the game that Nihilus was employing hit and run strikes against the Jedi and that the Jedi had no idea what they were dealing with. I can find the quote...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All this would explain Zez-Kai Ell?'s remark in the game that Nihilus was employing hit and run strikes against the Jedi and that the Jedi had no idea what they were dealing with. I can find the quote...

All the Masters say that.

Also, all of this links into something else supported by the game - the Assassins get a very temporary buff when they use their Draining techniques, but Nihilus get stronger for much longer periods of time, since he's using a vastly greater version of the power.

I see. I definitely like the connection you established between this and Odan Urr's attempt to cut Kun off from the Force.

As I said, it's not the same type of severing, but it's similar in a number of ways and resisting it would operate in the same fashion.

Not that any of the Nihilus supporters have anything other than no-limits fallacies to argue their points, anyway.

But, but, but if you stabbed Superman...

What I am about to state is just my own personal theory from what information i've gathered and I won't claim this as fact.

I do not believe that in order for Nihilus to have drained every jedi/miraluka on Katarr that he had to have been more powerful than all of them combined, but rather any individual affected died due to the drain affecting each person separately and they were unable to survive the drain by themselves, and why Visas was spared because he made sure it didn't affect her. Consider this example: a dam wall broke and a huge wave of water is coming and there are hundreds of cars (weighing about 1-2 tons each) in it's destructive path. All of the cars are swept away because individually their weight cannot stand up against the wave. Now if you add all of their weights together into one car making it weigh a few hundred tons, then it would be likely to resist the strength of the wave. I believe this similar situation happened when Kreia drained the Jedi Council. I believe she was more powerful than any of them individually but combined I believe they would have been too much for her, and I base that opinion from the fact that they were each very powerful jedi and kreia is very powerful but not some OP crap they try to pull in the star wars comic books sometimes. This would be a sufficient explanation as to why Kreia survived Nihilus drain because he might not have been as powerful as kreia at the time of betrayal either because he hadn't surpassed her yet which i doubt because at that point he already gained massive power or more likely he was weakened from hunger. This could result in her not being completely drained and would explain how she could recover her powers.

Force drain drains the connection between the force and the target, which kills them if fully drained. Supposedly separation from one's force connection (not blocked from the power sever force) is supposed to always result in death, but somehow the exile survived being separated from his connection and became a wound in the force. Kreia admits that the exile is one of a kind for surviving such a thing which baffled her and why Kreia sought him out. This contradicts Nihilus draining her completely because if she survived being completely separated from her force connection then the exile wouldn't be the only special one for surviving and kreia would also be a wound in the force. Also if Kreia was fully drained of her force connection then it wouldn't be possible for Kreia regain her own previous power before the drain. Regaining one's previous force connection is a sign that they had the light side power sever force used on them because they were simply blocked from using their power which has happened to other several notable characters in the Star Wars Universe or it could be a sign that the person's connection was never completely drained from force drain and they recovered. If fully drained she would become a wound in the force if she survives and her power would come from force bonds and feeding on death (just like the exile) which could explain how she became powerful again because she formed a very strong bond with the exile and they killed many throughout their journey but i do not believe that is the case with her. Now Kreia knows how to use the power force drain which shows that she was attacked with the force drain. She explained to the exile that the ability to feed on the force is something that can't be taught and can only be learned through experiencing it's affects first-hand, so the fact that she is able to use force drain on the jedi masters means nihilus must have used force drain on her. However, if force drain is only learned from experiencing such affects of it, and experiencing something of the sort is supposed to result in death then how in the world did the sith assassins learn such abilities? Kreia tells the exile that the sith assassins employ the same feeding on the force that nihilus does, but nihilus is the pinnacle of that ability. Continued feeding on the force eventually leads to something like nihilus, and for some reason they also have the ability to where they are more powerful and dangerous the more powerful in the force their prey is. She said these assassins are the results of "special teachings" but never explains what these teachings are, and from what she said about experiencing the effects first-hand one can logically assume that these assassins must have experienced being force drained and for them to survive they must not have been drained completely. Also, it is revealed that nihilus is basically the other version of the exile, and the exile is supposed to eventually become like nihilus if he keeps feeding on death like he unknowingly had been throughout his journey. If that's the case why is nihilus the only one with a hunger problem that weakens him if not satisfied? I never really understood why he was the only one who had the hunger since the beginning despite others feeding on the force like he does. The only explanation I can think of is the fact that he was on Malachor's surface so he experienced the worst of all compared to the exile, kreia, and the sith assassins so he unfortunately has the curse of always being hungry for force energy.

So in conclusion I believe that the sith assassins were purposefully force drained to a level where they would survive and learn the ability thus called their "special teachings", but somehow they also learned the proximity/enemy strength feeding ability as well which I don't understand. Kreia learned of this ability from being drained by Nihilus and surviving, and she survived not because Nihilus held back, (it's been shown they tried to kill her) but because at that time Nihilus was weakened enough from hunger. This resulted in her being almost drained completely but not fully so she was able to recover her powers later on. This situation would also preserve the fact that the exile is special because he would've been the only person to have been completely separated from the force and lived and became a wound in the force as a result.

I've just come to the conclusion that Kotor 2 has a lot of plot holes, some due to rushed production and some due to author negligence. Author negligence doesn't surprise me especially after Kreia's false/contradicting statement about the ancient sith on korriban at the tomb of tulak hord.

put it INsIDE ME

Originally posted by IndecentMortal
What I am about to state is just my own personal theory from what information i've gathered and I won't claim this as fact.

I do not believe that in order for Nihilus to have drained every jedi/miraluka on Katarr that he had to have been more powerful than all of them combined, but rather any individual affected died due to the drain affecting each person separately and they were unable to survive the drain by themselves, and why Visas was spared because he made sure it didn't affect her. Consider this example: a dam wall broke and a huge wave of water is coming and there are hundreds of cars (weighing about 1-2 tons each) in it's destructive path. All of the cars are swept away because individually their weight cannot stand up against the wave. Now if you add all of their weights together into one car making it weigh a few hundred tons, then it would be likely to resist the strength of the wave. I believe this similar situation happened when Kreia drained the Jedi Council. I believe she was more powerful than any of them individually but combined I believe they would have been too much for her, and I base that opinion from the fact that they were each very powerful jedi and kreia is very powerful but not some OP crap they try to pull in the star wars comic books sometimes. This would be a sufficient explanation as to why Kreia survived Nihilus drain because he might not have been as powerful as kreia at the time of betrayal either because he hadn't surpassed her yet which i doubt because at that point he already gained massive power or more likely he was weakened from hunger. This could result in her not being completely drained and would explain how she could recover her powers.

Force drain drains the connection between the force and the target, which kills them if fully drained. Supposedly separation from one's force connection (not blocked from the power sever force) is supposed to always result in death, but somehow the exile survived being separated from his connection and became a wound in the force. Kreia admits that the exile is one of a kind for surviving such a thing which baffled her and why Kreia sought him out. This contradicts Nihilus draining her completely because if she survived being completely separated from her force connection then the exile wouldn't be the only special one for surviving and kreia would also be a wound in the force. Also if Kreia was fully drained of her force connection then it wouldn't be possible for Kreia regain her own previous power before the drain. Regaining one's previous force connection is a sign that they had the light side power sever force used on them because they were simply blocked from using their power which has happened to other several notable characters in the Star Wars Universe or it could be a sign that the person's connection was never completely drained from force drain and they recovered. If fully drained she would become a wound in the force if she survives and her power would come from force bonds and feeding on death (just like the exile) which could explain how she became powerful again because she formed a very strong bond with the exile and they killed many throughout their journey but i do not believe that is the case with her. Now Kreia knows how to use the power force drain which shows that she was attacked with the force drain. She explained to the exile that the ability to feed on the force is something that can't be taught and can only be learned through experiencing it's affects first-hand, so the fact that she is able to use force drain on the jedi masters means nihilus must have used force drain on her. However, if force drain is only learned from experiencing such affects of it, and experiencing something of the sort is supposed to result in death then how in the world did the sith assassins learn such abilities? Kreia tells the exile that the sith assassins employ the same feeding on the force that nihilus does, but nihilus is the pinnacle of that ability. Continued feeding on the force eventually leads to something like nihilus, and for some reason they also have the ability to where they are more powerful and dangerous the more powerful in the force their prey is. She said these assassins are the results of "special teachings" but never explains what these teachings are, and from what she said about experiencing the effects first-hand one can logically assume that these assassins must have experienced being force drained and for them to survive they must not have been drained completely. Also, it is revealed that nihilus is basically the other version of the exile, and the exile is supposed to eventually become like nihilus if he keeps feeding on death like he unknowingly had been throughout his journey. If that's the case why is nihilus the only one with a hunger problem that weakens him if not satisfied? I never really understood why he was the only one who had the hunger since the beginning despite others feeding on the force like he does. The only explanation I can think of is the fact that he was on Malachor's surface so he experienced the worst of all compared to the exile, kreia, and the sith assassins so he unfortunately has the curse of always being hungry for force energy.

So in conclusion I believe that the sith assassins were purposefully force drained to a level where they would survive and learn the ability thus called their "special teachings", but somehow they also learned the proximity/enemy strength feeding ability as well which I don't understand. Kreia learned of this ability from being drained by Nihilus and surviving, and she survived not because Nihilus held back, (it's been shown they tried to kill her) but because at that time Nihilus was weakened enough from hunger. This resulted in her being almost drained completely but not fully so she was able to recover her powers later on. This situation would also preserve the fact that the exile is special because he would've been the only person to have been completely separated from the force and lived and became a wound in the force as a result.

I've just come to the conclusion that Kotor 2 has a lot of plot holes, some due to rushed production and some due to author negligence. Author negligence doesn't surprise me especially after Kreia's false/contradicting statement about the ancient sith on korriban at the tomb of tulak hord.

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