Which feat is more impressive...

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



TheKnight
Revan fighting through the Star Forge and beating Malak, Surik fighting through Malachor V and beating Traya or the Hot fighting through Dromund Kaas and defeating Vitiate ?

SunRazer
Barring his companions, Revan's feat is the best since he was completely dependent on his own reserves, nothing else. Surik had access to circumstantial power (as throughout the game) and her ability to feed off everyone she killed. Revan's companions were probably less of a help than Surik's circumstantial powers, so yeah, he takes first place. Surik comes in next.

The HoT's showing is just plain worse. It does compare to both, though.

AncientPower
Surik's 'feed on death' isn't a stimpak, it's a gradual healing of her Wound.

SunRazer
It's still circumstantial, not something based off her own personal reserves.

darthbane77
Revan's feat was better. The Sith in the Star Forge were not only superior to those in the Trayus academy, but were amped just as well as those on Malachor. Revan was weakened by the SF's DS Nexus, and he still managed to fight through dozens of Sith, droids, DS amped Bastila and eventually Malak himself. This feat is easily the best of the three. Though the other two are definitely comparable.

Ursumeles
Revans>Meetras>HoTs

Nephthys
About the same.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by AncientPower
Surik's 'feed on death' isn't a stimpak, it's a gradual healing of her Wound.

That fallout reference tho.

I approve thumb up

DarthAnt66
Revan's by leaps and bounds.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
Revan's feat was better. The Sith in the Star Forge were not only superior to those in the Trayus academy

Untrue. The Trayus Academy Sith were the strongest of the Triumvirate's Sith, which would be survivors of the Malak's Empire, but improved.

darthbane77
How were they improved significantly at all? Not all of them were taught how to harness Malachor's power or how to use uber-drain. Even if they were superior, Revan's feat is still better because he fought more of them than Surik did.

SunRazer
Um, what? The Assassins were all the Drain technique. Some of the others weren't, but it's not as if every Sith in Revan's Empire knew it either. The fact that they never "mastered" it to the degree of Nihilus is irrelevant when Revan and the Star Forge Sith didn't do so either.

Each of the blademasters on Malachor V survived at least ten encounters with a Jedi, and presumably killed them in those encounters (or at least, the vast majority). These Sith also assassinated tens of thousands of Jedi, per the Revan novel. I don't believe the Dark Jedi on the Star Forge have something of that scale to their name.

Revan had his companions by his side, so I'm not sure if he really fought more than Surk, who fought through a score of Storm Beasts and then a legion of elite Sith solo.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Untrue. The Trayus Academy Sith were the strongest of the Triumvirate's Sith, which would be survivors of the Malak's Empire, but improved.
Obviously they were the strongest - they were basically all that was left.

Surik fighting across small, close rooms doesn't compare to Revan fighting across hallways and open platforms.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obviously they were the strongest - they were basically all that was left.

There's a source that says the survivors of the Triumvirate turn on themselves and destroy each other after the destruction of the Trayus Academy, IIRC.

Regardless, it's stated that the most elite of the Assassins were stationed on Malachor V, per the KotORCG, so they were the strongest even when the others were alived. The Prima Guide reinforces this by calling them the Sith's strongest guardians or some such.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Surik fighting across small, close rooms doesn't compare to Revan fighting across hallways and open platforms.

I don't use in-game character models as representative of the number of people they fought. But if you did, Revan has his companions and still only fights a few at a time, it's just that they keep coming at him.

Surik fought "legions", some of the chambers in the Academy were "thronged with Sith".

Dark Jedi weren't better. The Triumvirate wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi, and the ones on Malachor were the strongest (it was probably the weaker ones roaming the galaxy that did the killing, along with Sion/Nihilus etc.)

DarthAnt66
Which doesn't mean there was more than two survivors beyond Malachor

The Dark Jedi weren't Assasssins, they were Dark Jedi. That's like saying this apple is the best apple as proof for it being better than an orange.

---

His two companions wouldn't assist him against armies of Jedi. His Jedi companions aren't better than Dark Jedi, and his best non-Force sensitive companions are ranged combatants.

Revan fought more.

They were better.

TheKnight
There is a limit to the number of people you can face and fight from all sides, before the enemies numbers turn into a hindrance and they just get on the way of each other and after that it just turns into a battle of attrition fighting wave after wave of enemies.

To known which feat of the two is superior we will have to known the layout of the area, the enemy composition, the number of enemies they will have to fight through, assistance on doing the feat.

Revan's feat is likely superior imo.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which doesn't mean there was more than two survivors beyond Malachor

Doesn't mean there were two, either.



Being one thing doesn't preclude you from being the other, lol.

Revan's Empire had numerous Sith Assassins, and Malak would've naturally inherited them. Not saying that those were the ones he fought on the Star Forge, of course.



Repeating yourself doesn't make a difference. Do any of these Dark Jedi have something to their name? Since the blademasters in the Academy on Malachor survived 10+ battles with Jedi each.

Zenwolf
See this is why I find it really difficult and kinda pointless to debate this type of game stuff, as we don't know what the hell actually happened. The only way we have any clue, is with cutscenes and even that just doesn't give full scope, we at best get A(the beginning) and C(the ending) of a fight, we hardly ever get a B(the middle) in a fight except in TOR.

Even getting B, it doesn't really last long and then you're back at A until C.

Which then still makes for speculation, even with having B.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
That fallout reference tho.

I approve thumb up
Shit reference. Everyone knows stimpacks are for gradual healing.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Um, what? The Assassins were all the Drain technique. Some of the others weren't, but it's not as if every Sith in Revan's Empire knew it either. The fact that they never "mastered" it to the degree of Nihilus is irrelevant when Revan and the Star Forge Sith didn't do so either.

Each of the blademasters on Malachor V survived at least ten encounters with a Jedi, and presumably killed them in those encounters (or at least, the vast majority). These Sith also assassinated tens of thousands of Jedi, per the Revan novel. I don't believe the Dark Jedi on the Star Forge have something of that scale to their name.

Revan had his companions by his side, so I'm not sure if he really fought more than Surk, who fought through a score of Storm Beasts and then a legion of elite Sith solo. The Revan novel isn't reliable when it comes to some things, the Sith of the Triumvirate DID NOT kill tens of thousands of Jedi when there were barely a hundred Jedi left alive. Surik is constantly referred to as the last Jedi, and it's constantly implied/stated that the Jedi we see in KOTOR II are some of the last very small handful. Drew's "tens of thousands" could be indirectly referring to the Sith and Dark Jedi killing most of the Jedi from the start of the Jedi Civil War up to the events of the Revan novel; that's the only way the "tens of thousands" uote makes any remote sense. I doubt Revan's companions would have helped him significantly against the dozens and dozens of Dark Jedi he fought on the Star Forge, thinking logically (at least logically to me anyway) Revan probably would said something along the lines of "you ****ers shoot the soldiers while I tear the Dark Jedi new assholes", and then been on his merry way to do so. Also, you say the battle masters are very impressive because they killed 10+ Jedi each, so they obviously have to be pretty impressive; this is flawed logic. If we gauged how impressive a Sithis based on their kills in combat then a lot of the Sith we see as being some of the most powerful would be below the shit tier.

DarthAnt66
How many battlemasters were there?

SunRazer
No, it's just Drew stupidly retconning things. He makes it clear that he's referring to the Triumvirate killing the tens of thousands, not Malak's Empire.

@Ant - Not sure.

cs_zoltan
You can't stupidly retcon things lmao. More numerous and more reliable sources say 100 than Drew.

SunRazer
What happened to the policy of "newest takes precedence"? That is how continuity works, unfortunately. Especially because TOR is now the leading force of the OR era. Stupid as it is, it takes precedence. The same way TCW got Adi Gallia to be killed by Savage instead of Grievous, and compressed the OCW timeline to the first few months of the Clone Wars, etc.

cs_zoltan
Never worked like that thumb up

SunRazer
Always did, lmfao. LoE, TOR, TCW, etc. If a newer source contradicts an older source, the newer source is taken as the "canon" one. That's what you call a retcon thumb up

cs_zoltan
And there are hundreds of other examples when it didn't erm

Obviously only newer sources can retcon old ones, since you can't retcon the future.

Yet when it was asked of Leland Chee how they handle conflicting sources he didn't say "new one takes precedence, the end". Right the contrary, the date of the source wasn't even mentioned:

Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."'

Poor Revan novel hilariously loses each and every one of those criteria. Sorry.

FreshestSlice
Yes, but I don't see how that's relevant given the fact that it doesn't support my point.

SunRazer
Knew you'd use that shitty example. Which explanation is the coolest? LMFAO. Lucas doesn't intervene in this either. So the novel can't lose those last two. I don't know or care for how big the audience of TOR is in comparison to the audience of KotOR. The novel only really loses your first one. These criteria can easily contradict themselves anyway.

Here Leland Chee supports a "new" retcon that goes against well-established continuity, even though it's "bold", which proves that it's entirely possible. I mean, from your perspective, this also "loses each of those criteria".

https://roqoodepot.com/interviews/leland-chee/

That also comes from 2006, whereas your citation comes from 2003. Clearly Chee's had a change of heart.

Just becuase it appears in more sources doesn't mean it automatically changes. If a major new source has it differently, it's the latter that takes precedence, and you can bet your ass that the novel is a major source thumb up

For the record, Karpyshyn also says that creative licence is with whoever's writing the source, which doesn't mean you have to be holding hands with previous writers of a particular subject.

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes, but I don't see how that's relevant given the fact that it doesn't support my point.

The salt's strong, but I don't even need that point, lol. I honestly couldn't care less if the retcon was disproven, since it doesn't affect my argument.

My main point is based around those blademasters surviving battles with 10+ Force users, which is supported by both KotOR and the Prima Guide. So even Zoltan would have to agree with me on that one.

By the way, there's a lot of ways to disprove the "tens of thousands" quote's relevance to Surik's run in the Trayus Academy.

AncientPower
For the record there are sources which state barely a hundred Jedi remained after the purge, not before it.

FreshestSlice
That doesn't say: "If the author says it, it just happens." If anything, that's just him rephrasing what he said in cz's source, but you cherry-picked the part that agreed with you. Again.

SunRazer
Nah. KotORCG, Chronicles, and KotoR II (twice) state that it's less than a hundred before the purge.

Still, TOR has a larger audience. So it does win on at least one of the criteria. KotOR II wins on another (most sources that the fact apepars in). The other two criteria aren't applicable here. So it's a stalemate.

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"When making such a bold retcon, we considered how necessary it was for the story, whether there were alternate ways for the author to obtain the same objective, and whether there was an existing precedent for this power. We also considered how the retcon aligned with other things that were also in development at the time."

That doesn't say: "If the author says it, it just happens." If anything, that's just him rephrasing what he said in cz's source, but you cherry-picked the part that agreed with you. Again.

Not at all. I'm saying that this quote makes it clear that there can be exceptions. The Revan novel doesn't necessarily fail this criteria either. And even based on Zoltan's criteria, it's a stalemate, not a win for the "less than hundred" argument. And TOR's the newer source. The latter has the stronger case.

cs_zoltan
Do you think throwing more examples in my face gona change the facts? Obviously there are exceptions, obviously there are retcons. You have proof the Revan novel was a legit retcon or just a mistake? Besides that "it's a newer source hurr durr".

Because if you don't, I'm gona take Chee's statements, 2 out of univerese and a 3rd in universe source over Drew's phaggotry who made it blatantly obvious he doesn't know shit about the lore.

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Do you think throwing more examples in my face gona change the facts? Obviously there are exceptions, obviously there are retcons. You have proof the Revan novel was a legit retcon or just a mistake? Besides that "it's a newer source hurr durr".

Because if you don't, I'm gona take Chee's statements, 2 out of univerese and a 3rd in universe source over Drew's phaggotry who made it blatantly obvious he doesn't know shit about the lore.

Chee's statement doesn't give you the win at all. TOR has the larger audience. Your thing is backed by more sources. That's it.

And it's not as if your back-up OOU sources are immune to mistakes, either. One of them declares Sion to be a Wound in the Force, and another is literally filled to the brim with contradictions, even contradicting itself blatantly.

cs_zoltan
Pretty sure Kotor II has a bigger audience than the Revan novel, not sure why you bring in SWTOR when the fact we are discussing didn't appear in the game.

SunRazer
It's a tie-in to TOR. Doesn't TOR have any influence in the editing or even writing process? Perhaps that explains the novel's shittiness.

cs_zoltan
It's a tie-in to SWTOR, but it's not SWTOR. The difference is stark when you consider, for example, how many tie-ins didn't make the cut into Disney Canon. They are separate entities.

If you are so adamant about it, then write an email to someone. Until then you are only convincing yourself.

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It's a tie-in to SWTOR, but it's not SWTOR. The difference is stark when you consider, for example, how many tie-ins didn't make the cut into Disney Canon. They are separate entities.

If you are so adamant about it, then write an email to someone. Until then you are only convincing yourself.

They might not have made the cut, but those that did would've been based off their tie-in concepts and would've had writing/editing influence from those sources as well, no?

If anyone here can email Karpyshyn (looking at you, Ant) and ask him about this, we can settle this.

I'd actually want Karpyshyn to revoke his own retcons, since they're just so stupid.

cs_zoltan
Lmao you actually want to ask Drew?

SunRazer
Why not? I win (and lose) either way, lol.

cs_zoltan
Well what do you expect him to say? "Yeah my novel is bullshit"?

Besides he's not a canon authority.

SunRazer
Rescinding or clarifying some of the novel's moments that make you want to an hero would be fine.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by TheKnight
Revan fighting through the Star Forge and beating Malak, Surik fighting through Malachor V and beating Traya or the Hot fighting through Dromund Kaas and defeating Vitiate ?

The second one in my opinion.. And that do come from a Revan fan. Because getting pass sion wasn't an easy task...

darthbane77
Originally posted by Revanchiste
The second one in my opinion.. And that do come from a Revan fan. Because getting pass sion wasn't an easy task... True, but how much more easily could Revan have taken Sion than Surik did? There's a question to ask yourself.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by darthbane77
True, but how much more easily could Revan have taken Sion than Surik did? There's a question to ask yourself.

It really depend on ou deer commander shepard (it pain me to call that guy Revan) it is more a question of personality than sheer amount of skill....
The true and original Revan woulve have convinced sion to lick his ball just before killing himself...

Geistalt
HoT's > Revan's > Meetra Surik's

Geistalt
Originally posted by TheKnight
Revan fighting through the Star Forge and beating Malak, Surik fighting through Malachor V and beating Traya or the Hot fighting through Dromund Kaas and defeating Vitiate ? I would've gone with the first one in terms of Force strength, but now, I'm going with the third.

The second's the most impressive in terms of skill and wit.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by SunRazer

If anyone here can email Karpyshyn (looking at you, Ant)

Do you not have e-mail on your side of the world?

SunRazer
It's all desert here. What do you think?

No, I just don't do this sort of thing.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.