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Parkers and MNs best abilities vie off for superiority.

Personally, for me, based on the working backwards version of the computer (which is the best one, IMO), the computer wins hands down.

It's like playing 4 in a row, or tic tac toe, where even if you know what he's trying to get you to do, you can't stop it happening.

spider man has dodged light itself. hes above any herald in speed

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Personally, for me, based on the working backwards version of the computer (which is the best one, IMO), the computer wins hands down.

It's like playing 4 in a row, or tic tac toe, where even if you know what he's trying to get you to do, you can't stop it happening.

I agree.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Personally, for me, based on the working backwards version of the computer (which is the best one, IMO), the computer wins hands down.

It's like playing 4 in a row, or tic tac toe, where even if you know what he's trying to get you to do, you can't stop it happening.

Parkers abilities seem limited to me. Like his SS doesnt extend beyond the now. MNs ability takes him to the battles end with varying outcomes. Not saying ones greater than the other i just wonder if they both were in equalized bodies and faced off in an enclosed space using their precog to the fullest who would strike who first.

Originally posted by ghostman
spider man has dodged light itself. hes above any herald in speed


Dont u have a cock to go suck somewhere?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Parkers abilities seem limited to me. Like his SS doesnt extend beyond the now. MNs ability takes him to the battles end with varying outcomes. Not saying ones greater than the other i just wonder if they both were in equalized bodies and faced off in an enclosed space using their precog to the fullest who would strike who first.




Dont u have a cock to go suck somewhere?

sure, wheres your father?


name a herald that has consistently dodged light as much as spider man, oh dont worry ill wait, this gon be good.

Originally posted by ghostman
sure, wheres your father?


name a herald that has consistently dodged light as much as spider man, oh dont worry ill wait, this gon be good. Hulk

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Parkers abilities seem limited to me. Like his SS doesnt extend beyond the now. MNs ability takes him to the battles end with varying outcomes. Not saying ones greater than the other i just wonder if they both were in equalized bodies and faced off in an enclosed space using their precog to the fullest who would strike who first.

?

Its also too reactive. Parker can't act until the danger is about to happen - he can't, for example, jump out of a thug's bullet until its been fired.

Whereas Midnighter can go through the entire day preceding the shooting, and prevent the guy from even buying the gun in the first place.

Originally posted by ghostman
sure, wheres your father?


name a herald that has consistently dodged light as much as spider man, oh dont worry ill wait, this gon be good.

I never knew my father 😥.

Seriously though. This isnt about speed. This is about ability to predict events and avoid getting hit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its also too reactive. Parker can't act until the danger is about to happen - he can't, for example, jump out of a thug's bullet until its been fired.

Whereas Midnighter can go through the entire day preceding the shooting, and prevent the guy from even buying the gun in the first place.

This reminds me of this scene iirc with Cho and some super smart villian. They were literally standing still going thru hundreds of scenarios in their heads mapping a fight out before it happened

Exactly. Nothing to do with speed. He's effectively aim dodging all the time, whereas Midnighter is forcing the gunmen to shoot in a particular spot, one where he has already leapt away from.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its also too reactive. Parker can't act until the danger is about to happen - he can't, for example, jump out of a thug's bullet until its been fired.

He actually can.

I assume you meant jump out of the way.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly. Nothing to do with speed. He's effectively aim dodging all the time, whereas Midnighter is forcing the gunmen to shoot in a particular spot, one where he has already leapt away from.

I never really considered that. It's kinda like a combat related spatial awareness almost delves into a limited reality warp if taken to extremes

Originally posted by Mindset
He actually can.

I assume you meant jump out of the way.

How far ahead of the event does he react?

And no, I meant literally jump out of the bullet, Atom style.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I never really considered that. It's kinda like a combat related spatial awareness almost delves into a limited reality warp if taken to extremes

I saw it the same way a chessmaster is planning the entire game ahead.

So it doesn't matter what you do, any move you try to make, is on his terms. I did something similar in my example with Shari.

Shari?

Sharivan. Got banned, but before he did I was debating against him in the IF vs Mids thread.

Goddamnit. Sin, if this is bait for me, I'm going to punch you in the face. Anyway, let's find a point of entry...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its also too reactive. Parker can't act until the danger is about to happen - he can't, for example, jump out of a thug's bullet until its been fired.

Whereas Midnighter can go through the entire day preceding the shooting, and prevent the guy from even buying the gun in the first place.

This is demonstrably false on an epic level. There are literally hundreds of scans of him acting before an attack happens bc of SS, including bullets being fired. You're also overselling MNer's ability a bit. There's no instance of him doing something that far in advance, or even close to it. It's a combat ability, not a "predict the entire universe so it unfolds how I want it" ability.

Look, I'm going to side with Spidey here, and it would be easy to call me a homer. But remember I'm possibly the board's biggest Authority fan as well.

Pete's power is low-level precognition. Precog violates the rules that MNer plays by. Depending on the situation, it's very, very easy for us to draw up scenarios where one has the advantage, so saying one is always better than the other is just dumb. But in a head-to-head fight, MNer is calculating the best course of action, but Pete is reacting to his reaction at or before it happens, with significantly better stats. Even if you normalize stats and skills, one is reacting to reality, while the other is still banking on probability.

Again, it's easy to draw up a scenario where I'm wrong. This isn't Spider-Man v. Midnighter, and there are numerous strategic advantages to the battle computer that don't have to worry about a head-to-head matchup with Pete. So maybe I'm approaching the thread wrong. But spider-sense does have its advantages.

Originally posted by Digi
This is demonstrably false. There are literally hundreds of scans of him acting before an attack happens bc of SS, including bullets being fired.

Look, I'm going to side with Spidey here, and it would be easy to call me a homer. But remember I'm possibly the board's biggest Authority fan as well.

Pete's power is low-level precognition. Precog violates the rules that MNer plays by. Depending on the situation, it's very, very easy for us to draw up scenarios where one has the advantage, so saying one is always better than the other is just dumb. But in a head-to-head fight, MNer is calculating the best course of action, but Pete is reacting to his reaction at or before it happens, with significantly better stats. Even if you normalize stats and skills, one is reacting to reality, while the other is still banking on probability.

How far ahead does the precog work? So a thug with a gun is pointed at Petey - does he know a full minute before where the bullet will go? 30 secs? 20? 1?

And with that knowledge (common knowledge rule, PLUS the detection capabilities of the battle computer), would it be too far fetched to create a scenario out of the millions available, that is advantageous to Mids?

Btw, I am using the explanation where he works backwards from the favoured outcome, as that is the best version, I feel.

Edit: to counter the 'overselling' point you made:

http://i.imgur.com/DsqL5PT.jpg

He planned the entire day. Sure, he could just be trying to put the fear of god into the villains, but hey, its the best explanation I've seen of how it really works.

Battle computer isn't magic. SS is.

Even the worlds best chess player (Midnighter) can only hope to stalemate the top chess programs, because you can't fool a modern top end computer program..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How far ahead does the precog work? So a thug with a gun is pointed at Petey - does he know a full minute before where the bullet will go? 30 secs? 20? 1?

And with that knowledge (common knowledge rule, PLUS the detection capabilities of the battle computer), would it be too far fetched to create a scenario out of the millions available, that is advantageous to Mids?

Btw, I am using the explanation where he works backwards from the favoured outcome, as that is the best version, I feel.

Edit: to counter the 'overselling' point you made:

He planned the entire day. Sure, he could just be trying to put the fear of god into the villains, but hey, its the best explanation I've seen of how it really works.

It's refuted by the lack of actual planning we've seen on that scale. It's not that I would put it beyond him, it's just that all we have is empty rhetoric like the scan you posted. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it's not like I'm working with an incomplete knowledge of his feats.

Pete's spider-sense is an immediate danger sense. It can and does respond to low-level dangers like disguised imposters well in advance of an actual attack, so there's no set time limit. But 30 seconds out (or more) is usually outside the norm. Remember that his reflexes are approximately 15x that of a normal human, so a second is a long f---ing time to him.

So we have precognition vs. calculative ability, and in a heads-up fight, I'm taking the precog. Especially backed with Pete's considerably better physical stats. In a straight-up fight, Pete beats Midnighter because of this. Imo, of course, but I also don't think it's without considerable thought (this is far from the first time I've had this conversation on KMC, for example).

It would be easy to devise a way MNer wins. But I also think it would be disingenuous to give him the kind of calculative prep he'd need to fool-proof the fight for himself. In anything that resembles a spur of the moment fight scenario (including standard forum stipulations), he's reacting in-battle...not manipulating the mailman at 8am the morning before in the right way to win the fight.

So I could be convinced the that battle computer is more useful on the whole. Just not that it trumps spider-sense in a direct conflict without lopsided prep.

Originally posted by Digi
It's refuted by the lack of actual planning we've seen on that scale. It's not that I would put it beyond him, it's just that all we have is empty rhetoric like the scan you posted. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it's not like I'm working with an incomplete knowledge of his feats.

Pete's spider-sense is an immediate danger sense. It can and does respond to low-level dangers like disguised imposters well in advance of an actual attack, so there's no set time limit. But 30 seconds out (or more) is usually outside the norm. Remember that his reflexes are approximately 15x that of a normal human, so a second is a long f---ing time to him.

So we have precognition vs. calculative ability, and in a heads-up fight, I'm taking the precog. Especially backed with Pete's considerably better physical stats. In a straight-up fight, Pete beats Midnighter because of this. Imo, of course, but I also don't think it's without considerable thought (this is far from the first time I've had this conversation on KMC, for example).

It would be easy to devise a way MNer wins. But I also think it would be disingenuous to give him the kind of calculative prep he'd need to fool-proof the fight for himself. In anything that resembles a spur of the moment fight scenario (including standard forum stipulations), he's reacting in-battle...not manipulating the mailman at 8am the morning before in the right way to win the fight.

So I could be convinced the that battle computer is more useful on the whole. Just not that it trumps spider-sense in a direct conflict without lopsided prep.

To break it down into layman's terms:

The killer in No Country for Old Men is pretty much unstoppable. Until the end, when he almost gets run down.

That's the thing with strategy and prep, it relies on known variables. There's only so much you can control your environment.

And that's why I'd pick Spider-Sense. It's got better "idiot proofing", so all I need to worry about is interpreting the signals.

Even if the BC is better overall in a prep scenario, prrcog covers all your bases, from the mundane to the life and death scenario's.

Originally posted by Digi
It's refuted by the lack of actual planning we've seen on that scale. It's not that I would put it beyond him, it's just that all we have is empty rhetoric like the scan you posted. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it's not like I'm working with an incomplete knowledge of his feats.

Pete's spider-sense is an immediate danger sense. It can and does respond to low-level dangers like disguised imposters well in advance of an actual attack, so there's no set time limit. But 30 seconds out (or more) is usually outside the norm. Remember that his reflexes are approximately 15x that of a normal human, so a second is a long f---ing time to him.

So we have precognition vs. calculative ability, and in a heads-up fight, I'm taking the precog. Especially backed with Pete's considerably better physical stats. In a straight-up fight, Pete beats Midnighter because of this. Imo, of course, but I also don't think it's without considerable thought (this is far from the first time I've had this conversation on KMC, for example).

It would be easy to devise a way MNer wins. But I also think it would be disingenuous to give him the kind of calculative prep he'd need to fool-proof the fight for himself. In anything that resembles a spur of the moment fight scenario (including standard forum stipulations), he's reacting in-battle...not manipulating the mailman at 8am the morning before in the right way to win the fight.

So I could be convinced the that battle computer is more useful on the whole. Just not that it trumps spider-sense in a direct conflict without lopsided prep.

I think in this thread we assume exactly the same physicals (reflexes, strength, speed etc).

The example I used with Sharivan was with language - did you catch it, perchance? I'm not arguing he sets things up from the morning of the fight - simply that with the battle computer, he goes and sets things up from that moment on.

So if we use language as an example:

'Digi, out of all the words in every language ever, what English word begins with 'M', ending with 'Edal', rhymes with 'Metal', and has five letters? They give three of these out to Olympic winners, and these are traditionally made of gold, silver or bronze. It has to be a real word as found in Webster's Dictionary.'

I predict you will say 'Medal'. If you want to answer my question. But if you don't answer, or answer correctly, I win.

You are free to answer with ANY word you wish, or any combination of letters/numbers, be as random as you want. Do whatever you want. Get drunk, and spell words drunkenly if you want.

But my prediction is that you will say 'medal'.

Now, you may well have a much larger vocabulary than me. You could conceivably speak faster than me. You may even be drunk, making it almost impossible to predict what word you may say.

But the response that I am making you give, is narrowed down to a single action which I have already predicted you will make. If you divert from that, then you lose.

Replace 'correct words' with 'blocking my punch' or something similar. Sure, your SS would be firing off and warning you not to fall into my trap - but if you don't say 'medal' (or, 'block my punch') then you will lose (get a fistful of righteous and....furious fury). You could try and be cute, and say 'metal', but that would be sufficiently close for my prediction.

And then, on to the next step. Over time, these predictions would add up. I'd make you move to this spot....raise that arm....lift that leg etc etc etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its also too reactive. Parker can't act until the danger is about to happen - he can't, for example, jump out of a thug's bullet until its been fired.

Whereas Midnighter can go through the entire day preceding the shooting, and prevent the guy from even buying the gun in the first place.

Not so sure about that. He sensed the danger Firelord presented before he was even in Earths atmosphere.

He used his SS to track a helicopter over half a city away that wasnt a threat to him at the time.

It may not be consistenly shown, but there are enough examples of his spider sense operating beyond how you describe to make it questionable.

Spider sense

@Sin: I had this exact same thought. The problem is, most other forms of precog can be fooled if you're unpredictable or just plain crazy.

@beatboks: people are really missing my point, I guess. The main point is, as Digi said, that on average he has an immediacy to it.

Midnighter planned an entire day backwards. Which is a far longer timeframe than what the SS does.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Sin: I had this exact same thought. The problem is, most other forms of precog can be fooled if you're unpredictable or just plain crazy.

@beatboks: people are really missing my point, I guess. The main point is, as Digi said, that on average he has an immediacy to it.

Midnighter planned an entire day backwards. Which is a far longer timeframe than what the SS does.

I dunno. I'm going to disagree with Digimark. I dont see it as more effective. The problem with SS to me is that it seems to work better (best) when Parker fights instinctively and is in prime physical condition. It's not infallible like most people in the board tend to believe. When he's say under duress or somehow distracted its functionality lessens. More so once he start getting tagged or when facing multiple threats of varying levels.

I also disagree with Digi. He is a fool.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I also disagree with Digi. He is a fool. He's the black sheep of the forum

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How far ahead does the precog work? So a thug with a gun is pointed at Petey - does he know a full minute before where the bullet will go? 30 secs? 20? 1?

And with that knowledge (common knowledge rule, PLUS the detection capabilities of the battle computer), would it be too far fetched to create a scenario out of the millions available, that is advantageous to Mids?

Btw, I am using the explanation where he works backwards from the favoured outcome, as that is the best version, I feel.

Edit: to counter the 'overselling' point you made:

http://i.imgur.com/DsqL5PT.jpg

He planned the entire day. Sure, he could just be trying to put the fear of god into the villains, but hey, its the best explanation I've seen of how it really works. SS precog is at best 1 second before it happens.

The problem here is that the battle computer won't be able to generate a strategy to someone who has precog. For example, can MN beat Superman? Will the computer come up with a strategy on the fly to beat Superman? No! That means it's possible there is a no win situation.

Anyway SS wins as it can
1. Warn before the event
2. Guide Spidey like a puppet to the correct positions of safety
3. Guide Spidey for attacks

In a fight with equal stats the SS will win as he couldn't get hit by ordinary human like attacks.

It has come up with strategies to beat Apollo, who has Superman type powers.

Precog only means Spidey will be able to see what's going to happen.

Not that he can do anything about it (see my example using language)

SS got Spidey through computers before, though. Spider slayers and what not, and in one case a battery of lasers controlled by a thinking super aimbot..

Did those work in the same way?

That is to say, working backwards from a preferred solution etc etc?

Again, I refer to my medal example. You know I'm trying to make you say medal. Doesn't mean you can do anything about it

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I also disagree with Digi. He is a fool.

Finally something we can agree on.



I'm not entirely sure we're at odds in this thread, though. I did say I might have been approaching the OP wrong when I framed it as a Spidey v. MNer confrontation.

Given the stips, I'd pick the battle computer. More versatile uses. But I do still think precog gums up the works of the battle computer, so to speak, because of its very nature being slightly ahead of reality.

As for spider-sense not being great, you can cherry-pick any argument you want there. Pete probably has thousands of feats at this point of SS working as advertised, or better, so if we assume anything approaching competent application of powers, it's a very hard thing to lowball, even counting the number of times he's been hit.

Agreed, I just think people are misunderstanding the usage of the computer, and thinking it is a probability machine, which can be countered by precog or crazy people, when I isn't, according to the explanation I'm using.