Jakeem Thunder vs Jenny Quantum

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Sin I AM
This will probably die but im curious

Populated area. Start about 10 miles apart but know the location to where the fight will start.

Who wins

Galan007
Most likely a quick-draw scenario. If Jakeem can give an order to T-bolt before Jenny is able to act, he wins. If not, she wins.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Galan007
Most likely a quick-draw scenario. If Jakeem can give an order to T-bolt before Jenny is able to act, he wins. If not, she wins.

Thats y i gave them a huge starting distance within a densely populated area. Trying to avoid any one shot scenarios

cdtm
O_o Does starting distance really matter here? They could be standing on the other side of the planet, and it's the same if they're right next to each other: Whoever can access their power first, wins.

Galan007
Exactly. thumb up

Sin I AM
Originally posted by cdtm
O_o Does starting distance really matter here? They could be standing on the other side of the planet, and it's the same if they're right next to each other: Whoever can access their power first, wins.

Does it? I didnt think they were one shot kill characters

DarkSaint85
They are.

Distance and physical location doesn't really matter.

Digi
I'm not sure there are specific instances of Jenny pinpointing someone like this so quickly, but it's certainly reasonable given her power set. I'd still handicap it in her favor. The Thunderbolt has higher potential, but is limited by Jakeem. He'd need to bring the abstract level stuff out of the gate or Jenny would end it quickly and mercilessly.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Digi
I'm not sure there are specific instances of Jenny pinpointing someone like this so quickly, but it's certainly reasonable given her power set. I'd still handicap it in her favor. The Thunderbolt has higher potential, but is limited by Jakeem. He'd need to bring the abstract level stuff out of the gate or Jenny would end it quickly and mercilessly.


that's what im questioning. I know of his potential but other than lip service I don't remember him doing anything noteworthy in the jsa

Digi
Originally posted by Sin I AM
that's what im questioning. I know of his potential but other than lip service I don't remember him doing anything noteworthy in the jsa

That's...a good question. And as an old JSA fan, I should be someone who can answer it, but it's one of those situations where I remember the story arcs but not specific feats a lot of times. I'd have to go through my collection to jog my memory.

Technically he has some Silver Age feats too, that I believe made it unscathed through the original Crisis. So there may be some utter cheese feats back there too.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Digi
That's...a good question. And as an old JSA fan, I should be someone who can answer it, but it's one of those situations where I remember the story arcs but not specific feats a lot of times. I'd have to go through my collection to jog my memory.

Technically he has some Silver Age feats too, that I believe made it unscathed through the original Crisis. So there may be some utter cheese feats back there too.

Silver Age? I thought he came to light during Kingdom Come? And all that old stuff was from Johnny Thunder. Are the feats the same I mean I can understand it if it is...its the same genie but still.

Digi
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Silver Age? I thought he came to light during Kingdom Come? And all that old stuff was from Johnny Thunder. Are the feats the same I mean I can understand it if it is...its the same genie but still.

The Thunderbolt (the 5D Imp) is the same, yeah. It's just that there's been different humans directing him. The first couple JSA arcs with Jakeem heavily referenced the Silver Age stuff with Johnny Thunder, so I'm reasonably sure it's canon (at least until Flashpoint, then who knows).

Kingdom Come was a different universe. Not the primary DCU. Not sure what you're referring to there.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Digi
The Thunderbolt (the 5D Imp) is the same, yeah. It's just that there's been different humans directing him. The first couple JSA arcs with Jakeem heavily referenced the Silver Age stuff with Johnny Thunder, so I'm reasonably sure it's canon (at least until Flashpoint, then who knows).

Kingdom Come was a different universe. Not the primary DCU. Not sure what you're referring to there.

if he referenced it i'll take it as canon. its not like we'll get much clarity anyway. but what I was saying was that Jakeem appeared in Kingdom Come years before he appeared in mainstream DCU. JJ didn't discover Thunderbolt till years later iirc

cdtm
Originally posted by Digi
The Thunderbolt (the 5D Imp) is the same, yeah. It's just that there's been different humans directing him. The first couple JSA arcs with Jakeem heavily referenced the Silver Age stuff with Johnny Thunder, so I'm reasonably sure it's canon (at least until Flashpoint, then who knows).

Kingdom Come was a different universe. Not the primary DCU. Not sure what you're referring to there.

Johnny Thunder also merged with the thunderbolt.

But we've seen how it can alter reality in Johns JSA run, and a 5d imp is a 5d imp. (Maybe colors are inferior to Mxy types, maybe not, but all have borked Spectre..)

Digi
Originally posted by cdtm
Johnny Thunder also merged with the thunderbolt.

But we've seen how it can alter reality in Johns JSA run, and a 5d imp is a 5d imp. (Maybe colors are inferior to Mxy types, maybe not, but all have borked Spectre..)

The Johnny merge was a character thing. I don't see it as changing the power set in any way. I think Johns explicitly made sure the Thunderbolt kept both sets of memories (iirc), so yeah.

Spectre's low-hanging fruit sometimes. He's not always at his "supposedly #2 in the universe" levels.

Sin's point is that we shouldn't just take "5D Imp" and let him slide without specific feats. Jenny's arguably a reality warper as well (she certainly blurs the line between high-level matter and time manip. and overt reality warping), so if it weren't for quick-draw shenanigans, it could actually be a good fight. Would probably be hard to vote against a 5D Imp in a protracted fight, even given all of that. But given the human element with the Thunderbolt, she can definitely win.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by cdtm
Johnny Thunder also merged with the thunderbolt.

But we've seen how it can alter reality in Johns JSA run, and a 5d imp is a 5d imp. (Maybe colors are inferior to Mxy types, maybe not, but all have borked Spectre..)


spectre owned jakeem and tbolt though

cdtm
Originally posted by Sin I AM
spectre owned jakeem and tbolt though

Jakeem's PIS in that case. "Banish the spectre" is all he told it to do.

The color from.Crisis Times Five dealt with Spectre easily, and Thunderbolt matched it.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by cdtm
Jakeem's PIS in that case. "Banish the spectre" is all he told it to do.

The color from.Crisis Times Five dealt with Spectre easily, and Thunderbolt matched it.


that scene wasn't pis. JJ was specific, Spectre even warned Thunderbolt not to phuck with him. Jakeem tried to banish him to the 5th dimension but ended up getting bfred himself. at no point did Specter even appear threatened. This kinda goes with Thunderbolts history...he's shown to be beaten before.

cdtm
Well, it's limited to Jakeem's orders. Mordru beat it, but that could be seen as Jakeem only telling it to banish him into the pen, and it just stood there and let Mordru beat it down.

But as the character developed, it learnes to act on it's own volition (Such as attacking QWSP despite being subservient to him.)

Plus, Day of Vengeance was a pretty bad story in general. I believe it was connected to the terrible Countdown to Final Crisis storyline.

Digi
Countdown to FC was an unholy mess. Not only was it poorly paced and all over the place in focus, but it actually managed to do the opposite of its name. The only thing it was good for was confusing readers who expected a logical lead-in to FC. The books that actually tied in well were floating elsewhere in relative obscurity.

Maybe the worst "event" book I've ever read, and that's saying something.

Sin I AM
Nay. I think SW was worse

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, it's limited to Jakeem's orders. Mordru beat it, but that could be seen as Jakeem only telling it to banish him into the pen, and it just stood there and let Mordru beat it down.

But as the character developed, it learnes to act on it's own volition (Such as attacking QWSP despite being subservient to him.)

Plus, Day of Vengeance was a pretty bad story in general. I believe it was connected to the terrible Countdown to Final Crisis storyline.

Good post.. I was going to bring up the Mordru incident next but youre spot on. Funny thing is i never considered the genies as on par with the imps. For one their willingly subservient to lesser beings. Two it's like two genies merged into one and when compared to their compatriots like mxy they fall laughably short. Has an imp even bear spectre in canon?

beatboks
Few things.

1. I would not say that 5d djinn and 5d inps are anywhere near the same.being of the 5th dimension they are all certainly above lower dimensional characters but that doesnt make them equal. We have a lot of species on this earth and ot many are equal.
2. The Thunderbolts limitations ahve always been those of the thinking of the master. Hell every classic (GA) story of JT had him bumbling thru gettinf stomped by guys he should have whipped by just giving the right order to Thunderbolt. Then finishing with him bumbling onto the ri gb t order to gi e and win in a second (which should have happened first panel).
3. In a battle like this one we have to look at the way the character would normally act.
4. IIRC wasnt it stated that in the 5th dimension the Djinn werent limited to masters orders and were actually allowed to operate under independent thought? I vaguely recall somewhere thunderbolt ignoring Jakeem in the 5th dimension.

operator616
True. It was established in the golden age that johnny is actually insane. This happened in a story where the JSA went crazy due to brainwave's induced dreams, while johnny on the other hand turned sane. And this is why Johnny couldn't just solve all of JSA's problems. Although, pre-Crisis T-bolt wasn't as powerful as post-Crisis (specifically after he was retconned into being a 5-D being). Pre-Crisis T-bolt was still able to alter reality (in the SA only), and outperform the Spectre on at least one occasion that I recall (in the GA).

T-bolt disobeyed Jakeem's commands (Qwsp was in control of him at the time) in JSA #79-80. It also displayed Qwsp conquering (through Jakeem) the entire 5th dimension somehow, single-handedly.

Anyway, T-bolt's best feats include:

1) Matched Lkz who imprisoned the Spectre.

2) Ultra-humanite in command of t-bolt remade the entire world in his image and imprisoned all the super-heroes, thousands of them including the major ones. Jakeem reversed it all with one single wish.

3) Was stalemating Jakeem (possessed by Qwsp) who conquered the entire 5th dimension.

4) There was a lovecraftian entity called Morgauth which was handling the entire JSA including Spectre and Fate, t-bolt one-shotted it.


Regarding Jenny, she's definitely a reality warper. She's absorbing a universe, created a pocket dimension, and flipping the entire WS reality into a fictional one, she also held her own against the Doctor and was on the same level as her sister who was merging the entire multiverse. Admittedly though some writers did seem to forget she possessed reality warping abilities and portrayed her on a somewhat same level as her previous incarnation aka Jenny Sparks.

Personally, id give t-bolt the win in a raw power match. Unless Jenny plays it smart and severs Jakeem's vocal cords (like Mordru did) or even produce sound waves which will interfere with Jakeem's communication with the t-bolt (this has worked before).

Galan007
Regarding the power of T-bolt and Lkz, I've always thought this dialogue(coming straight from the Quintessence) was quite telling:

http://i.imgur.com/JHhlAO4.jpg

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