Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions Quotes

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DarthAnt66
So how this source works is similar to most roleplaying guides.

They give a summary of the fight from a plot standpoint on the left page, and then how to implement that within the game on the right page.

It should be stressed this is an actual publications that are printed and sold in stores.

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"Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, for their part, recognize Darth Maul as the most dangerous foe they have ever faced: a Sith Lord with not only training to equal their own but Sith secrets that could make him all but invincible in battle."

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Clone Strike

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"This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue."

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

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"The clone troopers are methodical, but Skywalker is merciless. He wields his lightsaber like a scythe, cutting down anyone foolish enough to get in his way. Even experienced Jedi Masters fall, for their expertise in the Force is nothing before the raw power Anakin can unleash."

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

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"Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years."

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

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"Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker."

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

UCanShootMyNova
Cool. No one cares about the disgusting self abuse of your own mouth being constantly shoved onto Anakin's chode repeatedly ( read: over and over ) for the last several months. smile

darthbane77
These quotes are well and good, but Anakin was definitely not the most powerful Jedi of his time; not by a pretty good margin.

Ursumeles
R.I.P. Syn, lmao.

Originally posted by darthbane77
These quotes are well and good, but Anakin was definitely not the most powerful Jedi of his time; not by a pretty good margin.
thumb up Yoda>Anakin smile

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Ursumeles
thumb up Yoda>Anakin smile thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

Petrus
thumb up

Emperordmb
thumb up thumb up thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Lmao.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
R.I.P. Syn, lmao.


thumb up Yoda>Anakin smile Exactly who I was thinking of, Yoda and Windu are both above Anakin.

DarthAnt66
Skywalker's better than Windu, definitely. Yoda? Not sure.

darthbane77
That's one thing we;ll disagree on Ant. Anakin isn't above Windu, he's close though. Yoda is, without a doubt, unquestionably, superior to Anakin.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yoda? Not sure.

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Trocity
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker's better than Windu, definitely.

Agree with this.

darthbane77
If Anakin is > Yoda then Revan must be ****ing GM Luke level.

Beniboybling
This source was printed in 2005, in what stores is it still being sold. erm

DarthAnt66
I meant that it was once sold in stores, rather than it being an online article.

Beniboybling
Well great, but what interest should we have in a dusty old Legends source published over a decade ago?

DarthAnt66
Uh, because its canon, and we use old sources all the time?

I can ask the same regarding half of the quotes you use, lmfao.

Beniboybling
This shit is said a dozen times in the RotS novel lol, you're starting to rack up a tally on posting old news.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
This shit is said a dozen times in the RotS novel lol, you're starting to rack up a tally on posting old news.
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/758720300770963457/-1PeCBpo.jpg

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Cool. No one cares about the disgusting self abuse of your own mouth being constantly shoved onto Anakin's chode repeatedly ( read: over and over ) for the last several months. smile

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
If Anakin is > Yoda then Revan must be ****ing GM Luke level.
Nah, Anakin>Windu, and also >=Revan, tbh.

SunRazer
Revan isn't above Anakin in anything except mastery, knowledge, and emotional control.

Ursumeles
thumb up

DarthAnt66
http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/yas10.png

Referring to Skywalker and Dooku. ^

SunRazer
"Only the strongest Jedi remains..."

God it's hard to read that shitty scan.

EDIT: Also "...the incredible battle between two of the most powerful Jedi of all..."

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66
Pretty solid accolade for both Skywalker and Dooku. thumb up

SunRazer
Solid accolades but we already had this in the RotS novel.

Remind me to add it to my Dooku RT.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, Anakin>Windu, and also >=Revan, tbh. lol, no

SunRazer
Alright, added it to my Dooku RT.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by darthbane77
lol, no
Lol, yes. Especially >Windu.

darthbane77
How exactly is Anakin>Windu? And **** no Anakin is not>Revan, that's just being retarded.

Ursumeles
Umm..by besting Windu's equal and having many "most powerful" accolades and better feats? erm

Jmanghan
Anakin's on par with Windu, and he was amped when he fought Dooku.

chingchangwalla
Windu would take Anakin apart.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anakin's on par with Windu, and he was amped when he fought Dooku.
He dominated him before he was enraged. Also, his force feats outstrips Windu's.

chingchangwalla
But some people have Mace above Dooku erm
Anakin had a clear form advantage against the Count, something he won't have against Windu.

Ursumeles
Some people have Dooku above Windu erm
The form advantage is heavily overblown. Also, if Anakins strenght was an factor, it also would be an factor against Windu. And Anakin has better feats as a whole, lol.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well great, but what interest should we have in a dusty old Legends source published over a decade ago?
Quotes the novelization of Return of the Jedi all the time, tho. Do you like being a hypocrite, Beni?

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Ursumeles
He dominated him before he was enraged. Also, his force feats outstrips Windu's. No he didn't.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Jmanghan
No he didn't.
Yes he did. He kicked him, and was on the offense the whole time, pre Dun-Monch.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yes he did. He kicked him, and was on the offense the whole time, pre Dun-Monch. Originally posted by Jmanghan
No he didn't.

SunRazer
Anakin's noticeably better than Dooku. Though it's worth noting that the RotS junior novelization claims that:



Granted, this is the same source that depicts Dooku's stamina as being infinite and Anakin being unable to outlast him, which conflicts with other portrayals of the fight (both the script and novel have Dooku tiring, so the stamina part is overriden). The above quote does, however, suggest that the fight would be even if not for the disparity in Force reserves, so skill-wise, Anakin isn't better than Dooku thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Quotes the novelization of Return of the Jedi all the time, tho. Do you like being a hypocrite, Beni? I like triggering you. smile

FreshestSlice
It's not triggering. You're just a heathen. Maybe you if you weren't such a heretical ***** you'd know the difference. uhuh

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
The above quote does, however, suggest that the fight would be even if not for the disparity in Force reserves, so skill-wise, Anakin isn't better than Dooku thumb up
Skywalker's stated to be more skilled than Dooku. erm

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yes he did. He kicked him, and was on the offense the whole time, pre Dun-Monch. Anyone can be "on the offensive" the entire time.

Maul kicked Obi-Wan, he was dominating him.

100% confirmed.

DarthAnt66
Jman, Skywalker nearly made Dooku lose consciousness due to how ferocious his assault was.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jman, Skywalker nearly made Dooku lose consciousness due to how ferocious his assault was. Thats actually stated?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker's stated to be more skilled than Dooku. erm
Could you give me the quote?

@Jman Being on the defensive is Kenobis style erm
Also, Dooku struggeled in the fight.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Could you gibe me the quote?

@Jman Being on the defensive is Kenobis style erm
Also, Dooku struggeled in the fight.

What does Kenobi being defensive have to do with anything?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Jmanghan
What does Kenobi being defensive have to do with anything?
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anyone can be "on the offensive" the entire time.

Maul kicked Obi-Wan, he was dominating him.

100% confirmed.
Dooku being on the defensive means that his opponent has the upper hand. Same can not be said for Kenobi.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker's stated to be more skilled than Dooku. erm

He's also stated to be faster and stronger than Yoda, and far more dangerous than Palpatine and Yoda.

The quotes put him very high up, but there's a limit to how literally you can take them erm

FreshestSlice
Both of those things are true statements, so....

SunRazer
I didn't know you were part of the Anakin brigade, Freshest.

How is Anakin faster and stronger than Yoda or Palpatine, or far more dangerous than them in battle (admittedly, Zonakin might work, but the quote's referring to him in a general sense)? I'm curious to see people's reasoning for this.

SunRazer
What's this quote for Anakin being more skilled, anyway?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Dooku being on the defensive means that his opponent has the upper hand. Same can not be said for Kenobi.


No not necessarily. Makashi can be quite defensive as well.

Ursumeles

Jmanghan
It said in the AOTC Novel that Dooku struggled against Kenobi as well during the Battle of Geonosis...

Darth Thor
@ Urseumless: Yeah Dooku more than struggled against Skywalker. Just pointing out him fighting defensively isn't proof of that.

He fought defensively against Skywalker in "Crisis on Naboo" but that was a pretty even fight.

chingchangwalla
Makashi is all about deflection and evasion so there's some element of defense, you just can't meet attacks head on with ease.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Darth Thor
@ Urseumless: Yeah Dooku more than struggled against Skywalker. Just pointing out him fighting defensively isn't proof of that.

He fought defensively against Skywalker in "Crisis on Naboo" but that was a pretty even fight.
Yeah, what I meant was, that iirc was over the whole fight (pre-Dun Monch) on the defensive, and hadn't a chance to attack succesfully.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Yeah, what I meant was, that iirc was over the whole fight (pre-Dun Monch) on the defensive, and hadn't a chance to attack succesfully.


You mean he was forced on the defensive? Yeah definitely in that case.

Interestingly though the ROTS script states Anakin forced Kenobi backwards as well. Not that Kenobi voluntarily moved backwards.

It can be hard to tell the difference with combatants who tend to fight defensively anyway against stronger opponents.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You mean he was forced on the defensive? Yeah definitely in that case.

Interestingly though the ROTS script states Anakin forced Kenobi backwards as well. Not that Kenobi voluntarily moved backwards.

It can be hard to tell the difference with combatants who tend to fight defensively anyway against stronger opponents.
IIRC Emokin had the upper hand in the Novel(like nearly breaking Kenobi's bones) to the point, where Kenobi opens himself to the force.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't know you were part of the Anakin brigade, Freshest.

How is Anakin faster and stronger than Yoda or Palpatine, or far more dangerous than them in battle (admittedly, Zonakin might work, but the quote's referring to him in a general sense)? I'm curious to see people's reasoning for this.
Because we have multiple sources saying so and no one gives a shit about your, or any of the others here, opinion?

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because we have multiple sources saying so and no one gives a shit about your, or any of the others here, opinion?

We have RotS and Nick Gillard, to my knowledge, and both of them contradict themselves - RotS also claims Yoda was the most powerful threat the darkness ever faced, and Nick Gillard says that Palpatine's abilities are beyond anything we've ever experienced, as well as having a style in which "you'll never get the better of him". There's also the new quote from the SW website claiming that Sidious can beat any Jedi duelist, which includes Anakin, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, suggesting that Yoda's skills with a lightsaber were unequaled, although that doesn't necessarily pertain to overall lightsaber combat.

There's also Filoni, who isn't worth much, but he suggests that Palpatine is unbeatable in one of the interviews as well.

What else is there giving Anakin supremacy?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Thats actually stated?
Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

This was before Skywalker became enraged.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
He's also stated to be faster and stronger than Yoda, and far more dangerous than Palpatine and Yoda.

The quotes put him very high up, but there's a limit to how literally you can take them erm
Well, yeah, he is.

I'm referring to quotes from Gillard, Palpatine, and the narrator.

So really, out-of-universe, in-universe, and author intent is all on Skywalker's side. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Jmanghan
It said in the AOTC Novel that Dooku struggled against Kenobi as well during the Battle of Geonosis...
Context should be noted. The text made note on how Dooku was "far" better early in the fight. Kenobi ramped up his attack and Dooku, for a short duration, had to work "furiously" to keep Kenobi at bay, but then seized advantage and ended the fight. This is consistent with visual lore, since we saw Kenobi go blow-for-blow with Maul, a combatant on Dooku's tier, for a short duration in TPM as well.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, yeah, he is.

I'm referring to quotes from Gillard, Palpatine, and the narrator.

So really, out-of-universe, in-universe, and author intent is all on Skywalker's side. thumb up

Who does Palpatine's quote even refer to? He also describes Maul's skills as unparalleled, so there's that.

Out-of-universe? Gillard claims that you can't top Palpatine, Filoni claims that no one can compete with him, and the SW website claims that Sidious is capable of besting any Jedi duelist.

In-universe - I think everyone has those sorts of quotes, lmfao.

The narrator also claims Yoda's the strongest that the dark side has ever faced, IIRC.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Who does Palpatine's quote even refer to? He also describes Maul's skills as unparalleled, so there's that.

Out-of-universe? Gillard claims that you can't top Palpatine, Filoni claims that no one can compete with him, and the SW website claims that Sidious is capable of besting any Jedi duelist.

In-universe - I think everyone has those sorts of quotes, lmfao.

The narrator also claims Yoda's the strongest that the dark side has ever faced, IIRC.
Palpatine deems Skywalker's abilities greater than any Sith before him.

You can't top Palpatine because he'll sucker you in, make you think you've won, but then get the upper-hand, like he did against Windu. It's rooted in his character, not his skills. Filoni's comments seem to be of the time period, and Palpatine being *capable* of defeating Skywalker is already established - it's a matter if he can do so for the majority.

Not really.

Skywalker's not a beacon of light in the darkness like Yoda. erm In a sense, Skywalker's the greatest servant of the dark side ever known, not the other way around.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, yeah, he is.

http://m.memegen.com/nnnpb3.jpg

Absolute insanity.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine deems Skywalker's abilities greater than any Sith before him.

You can't top Palpatine because he'll sucker you in, make you think you've won, but then get the upper-hand, like he did against Windu. It's rooted in his character, not his skills. Filoni's comments seem to be of the time period, and Palpatine being *capable* of defeating Skywalker is already established - it's a matter if he can do so for the majority.

Not really.

Skywalker's not a beacon of light in the darkness like Yoda. erm In a sense, Skywalker's the greatest servant of the dark side ever known, not the other way around.

1. As I said, he deemed Maul's skills unparalleled as well, but that's untrue.

2. It seems like you can't beat him in general was his point. Fair enough on the majority thing, but obviously, I support that.

3. It says the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Anakin's fought the darkness before.

With respects to sheer skill, I don't think Anakin is above or on par with Yoda and Palpatine. He might be physically stronger than Yoda, though, based on his novel performance against Dooku (even if it's by far the most extreme depiction of the fight). Speed? Not sure about that. He seemed pretty overwhelmed by how fast Palpatine was in the novel. Otherwise, one would have to subscribe to the beginning part about him being the fastest, too.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://m.memegen.com/nnnpb3.jpg

Absolute insanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-rP5iqx6T8&t=1m02s

SunRazer
Ah, that game. Everyone died by being impaled, lol.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. As I said, he deemed Maul's skills unparalleled as well, but that's untrue.

2. It seems like you can't beat him in general was his point. Fair enough on the majority thing, but obviously, I support that.

3. It says the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Anakin's fought the darkness before.

With respects to sheer skill, I don't think Anakin is above or on par with Yoda and Palpatine. He might be physically stronger than Yoda, though, based on his novel performance against Dooku (even if it's by far the most extreme depiction of the fight). Speed? Not sure about that. He seemed pretty overwhelmed by how fast Palpatine was in the novel. Otherwise, one would have to subscribe to the beginning part about him being the fastest, too.
1. Can you quote me?

2. Well yeah, you can't beat him in general *because* of the reasons listed. Otherwise, Windu wouldn't have had Palpatine on the ground.

3. Do you not understand my point? Yoda is the supreme master of the light side and the greatest foe of the Sith. Skywalker has fought the darkness, sure, but he was likened moreso to a spinning tornado than a beacon of purity. Hell, all of Skywalker's encounters with the dark side have primarily been a scam, orchestrated by the true Dark Lord to lead him on his path to join the Sith. Nearly everything Skywalker has done has benefited Palpatine and the dark side. And by the time the quote was made, Skywalker was honestly the greatest servant of the dark side, not foe, like I pointed out.

Well then you're ignoring canonical quotes due to your preconceived biases, and frankly I can't respect that and will have to accept your concession. Skywalker seemed to vanish in and out of existence at times in his fight against Dooku, by the way. Also, he followed the fight between Palpatine and Windu just fine through the Force. Eyes are limiting and deceiving.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1. Can you quote me?

I've asked the person who told me about it to give me the quote.



That wasn't even an instance of Palpatine drawing Windu in and then defeating him with a lightsaber. erm



I'd argue this further, but then I remembered that the quote comes from RotS, and I recall how Stover writes about the darkness in Anakin's context.



You're not accepting anyone's concession here. I'm one of Anakin's strongest supporters on this forum, lmao.

As I've asked already, where are the quotes for Anakin being the most skilled ever? In fact, what was the quote that specifically noted Anakin being more skilled than Dooku? You haven't shown me that either.

On the other hand:

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
That wasn't even an instance of Palpatine drawing Windu in and then defeating him with a lightsaber. :
No, but he does draw him in and kill him. thumb up



"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."

The above solidifies Skywalker's placement as the most skilled and, in particular, better than Dooku.


Now you're the one being the hypocrite. Palpatine is the best. Wait, no, now Yoda is the best.

Which one is it?

I'm not disputing some sources highlight them as better than Anakin, but those closest to the primary source material deem Skywalker greater.

Anyway, can you provide me a scan so I can see all proper context behind the quote?

---

Recognize the following fact:

This discussion is rooted in Skywalker vs Dooku.

All of your examples of potential candidates greater than Skywalker are other tier 9 duelists.

This is consistent with Gillard stating that one tier 9 duelist can beat another based on circumstance.

However, nothing you have provided suggests Dooku, a mere tier 8 duelist, is comparable with Skywalker.

In contrast, I've presented evidence on why Skywalker might be better than even Palpatine, let alone Dooku.

tl;dr: You're wrong, I'm right. wink

Lord Stark
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, yeah, he is.



http://d1stfe5sz9ezud.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/41ae43cf7d59a84641ee8da3366d9e30.gif

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

No, but he does draw him in and kill him. thumb up



Yeah, not saber combat. He's applying that technique overall, but not saber combat.



It shows Anakin's the most dangerous overall, which would also include his physicals. With respects to raw prowess with a lightsaber, there's no proof that Anakin's the best, or at least, you're not showing it.

Also, you really think Anakin is "far more dangerous" than Yoda or Palpatine?

Since you love Palpatine quotes, it's worth noting that he says "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Just proof that Palpatine/Yoda's still stronger smile



I'm not supporting either of them as the best. I'm saying they each have quotes to put them over Anakin. They probably tie for me, or Yoda has the slight edge.

Although interestingly, for a long time, I thought the quote only referred to Jedi, but it seems like it means Yoda is better than any duelist shown in the guide.



Perhaps.



Scanner's broken, but it's just a little block with notes about Yoda's lightsaber inside.The entire paragraph is:



As you can see, the rest of the notes are completely unrelated to it.



Obviously. I'm not saying Tyranus is better than Skywalker... erm



Alright.



You must've missed the part where I posted the RotS junior novel's take on the fight:



Moreover, Dooku is fully capable of holding his own against Yoda, a tier 9 duelist:





I'm also emailing Gillard with my own questions. I'll get back to you with his answers.



Obviously Skywalker's better than Dooku... erm



I know you like to overstate your performance, my boy, but really?

DarthAnt66
.

DarthAnt66
The quote can be interpreted as the character's overall fighting style.

Besides Palpatine stating that Skywalker's skills are unparalleled, or him being tier 9.

Yeah, and I explained why that isn't relevant to a discussion with Dooku.

K.

Already addressed.

You basically are.

K.

I don't care about the junior novel when I have the adult novel.

Which further shows Skywalker's superiority to Yoda.

K.

K.

Yes.

SunRazer
Stop being a Syn and respond properly.

Also, you don't get to pick and choose what you don't want. The junior novel is in fact more aligned with the film than the RotS novel, and the film/film script doesn't have Dooku being destroyed like in the novel. The novel's in fact, an outlier. I'm not saying we take the junior novel word-for-word, but it counts for something.



According to one, extreme outlier source, yeah. Either way, Dooku can contend with tier 9's. Concession accepted.

DarthAnt66
No, I have no interest in a multi-page debate, lmfao.

Uh, the novel was edited line-for-line by Lucas. The movie, novel, and video-game all display Skywalker being on the winning side against Dooku, and by significant portion.

---

Lmfao, then why cite the Fact Files if its an extreme outlier?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Either way, Dooku can contend with tier 9's. Concession accepted.
LMFAO WHAT. The discussion was if Dooku was more skilled than Skywalker, not if he can contend.

He can contend in the sense he isn't instantly destroyed, but he can't trade blow-for-blow, or even close.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, I have no interest in a multi-page debate, lmfao.

Uh, the novel was edited line-for-line by Lucas. The movie, novel, and video-game all display Skywalker being on the winning side against Dooku, and by significant portion.

---

Lmfao, then why cite the Fact Files if its an extreme outlier?

1. As always.

2. The video game is completely non-canon. Regardless, Anakin's winning in the movie, but not to the extent of the novel. The junior novel and comic make it clear that they're near-enough even. Obviously the film and novel hold the most weighting, but it's not a huge disparity.

3. Supplementary sources in general are extremely generous to Dooku there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO WHAT. The discussion was if Dooku was more skilled than Skywalker, not if he can contend.

He can contend in the sense he isn't instantly destroyed, but he can't trade blow-for-blow, or even close.

1. No, I was looking for the quote to suggest that Anakin was more skilled than Dooku. I never said Dooku was more skilled, and I have them as about equally skilled.

2. He can contend as he did against Yoda. In other words, your former argument that you've held for months about Anakin slaughtering Dooku isn't true.

Dooku only appears to be on the losing end due to Anakin's Force reserves, not because he's being outplayed in swordsmanship.

Trocity
nvm

DarthAnt66
Kek.

The game is canon. And no, the comic has Skywalker sending him in full retreat in a matter of seconds. The movie also shows Dooku in quick retreat.

?

---

You said he wasn't better, so whatever it was, it was stupid.

Wait a ****ing minute, lmfao. Are you trying to argue that because some Fact File states Dooku can contend with Yoda, it means that the RotS novel fight isn't canon? Lmfao dude, just take a L.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZB1wJLWsAE0g29.jpg

Trocity
Skywalker is God.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The game is canon.

Really? Then I'm ranking Cin Drallig up, lol, for contending with Anakin in TK. And because the game also claims that if Cin Drallig and his inferior, Serra Keto, took on Anakin together, it would take Anakin everything he had to beat them both. So goodbye to the Drallig stomp.

Pretty sure Leland Chee declared the game non-canon, but whatever.



It's still not the "slaughter" as depicted in the novel.



And yet, aside from ad hominems, you still haven't shown me proof that Anakin's more skilled, only that he's better overall, which makes sense, since he's much stronger in the Force.

Show me, or concede. Stop wasting my time with ad hominems and petty insults. Your case is going to shit with them.



You're dumber than a fruit shop owner, dude.

Stop reading things that don't exist erm

tl:dr - Anakin's stronger, faster, better everything relating to physicals. Still haven't seen proof that his finesse with the blade is better than the Count's.

DarthAnt66
OK.

The comic has Dooku in full retreat in seconds. The game has Dooku literally running from Anakin. Lmfao.

>"you're dumber than a fruit shop owner"
>"aside from ad hominems"
But sure, let's ignore quotes deeming Skywalker unparalleled by Gillard and Palpatine. thumb up

Your argument made no sense to begin with. My apologies if I interpret BS for BS.

You're not a member of the Skywalker Brigade. You're a fraud. thumb up

DarthAnt66
To reemphasize the irony:

Originally posted by SunRazer
Stop wasting my time with ad hominems and petty insults. Your case is going to shit with them.

You're dumber than a fruit shop owner, dude.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
OK.

The comic has Dooku in full retreat in seconds. The game has Dooku literally running from Anakin. Lmfao.

Seconds? We don't know what comic time is erm



The difference being that I've offered the quotes and am waiting for you to do the same. Ad hominems after you've proven your point are fine. Before, though? Nah. You can't substitute actual arguments with ad hominems.



Overall quotes don't refer specifically to lightsaber finesse.



There was no argument. I was looking for quotes that made Anakin out to have specifically better lightsaber skill, not overall lightaber ability, than Darth Tyranus. So far, you've shown me general quotes about him being better overall, and that your anger matches Skywalker's.

You've misinterpreted my stance repeatedly, and constantly put words in my mouth. You're going to have to do better than that before you call anything BS.



No, I'm just not an emotional hothead like you who can't stand his wank being challenged or questioned. That's not a true supporter of Skywalker. You're doing him a disservice with this crappy emotional performance.

As of yet, we've proven that Dooku can hold his own against tier 9's, and that Anakin is better than him. We've made no real progress.

DarthAnt66
On mobile.

I never understood why people who've known me for years try to slip the "you're throwing insults, so you must be mad!" card when they know that's not the case. Saying that is the actual display of pettiness and frankly just looks embarrassing on your end. Looks like some shit some SJW would pull out when being hammered with facts. mmm

Anyway:

He pushes Dooku from the start to the top of stairs in the time it takes Kenobi to dismantle six droids.

You've offered nothing.

Then what's even the point of this discussion if you don't think it pertains to anything overall, lmfao? I've cited example after example highlighting Skywalker as a vastly superior duelist than Dooku. If we want to look at the AotC fight, Skywalker was briefly contending as equals with Dooku, even despite the fact Dooku was more powerful at the time. By DD, they fought as equals even before Skywalker's growth in technical skill in the Outer Rim Sieges. Note that I would also consider them equals of the Force, or Dooku slightly superior, at this point as well, so it's not like Skywalker had that advantage.

Above.

Above.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I never understood why people who've known me for years try to slip the "you're throwing insults, so you must be mad!" card when they know that's not the case. It's the actual display of pettiness and frankly just embarrassing on your end. Looks like some shit some SJW would pull out when being hammered with facts.

I'm not wasting my time on justifying whose use of the ad hominems was right, lol. Let's debate with just the facts.



Fair enough.



That a source thinks Dooku can match Anakin and that sources think Dooku can hang with Yoda, a tier 9 duelist of potentially greater stature than Anakin? Yes, I have.

Don't try to dismiss what people say when you disagree; acknowledge it all the same.



I don't even understand what you're saying here.

I was looking for a quote showing Anakin's supremacy in sheer lightsaber skill, and I didn't get it. That's all. I know Anakin has quotes for supremacy in overall combat. I wanted to add to his hype collection, but I wasn't able to find quotes for Anakin being more skilled than Yoda or Sidious, or even Dooku, so I asked for a quote. When you gave me two, because they didn't pass my scrutiny, you got mad. lol



Per my quotes, not even Yoda was "vastly" superior, so even if Anakin was a bit better than Yoda, that wouldn't amount to being vast, especially seeing as Dooku lasted a decent amount of time against Anakin.

You don't need to worry, lol. I have Skywalker >> Dooku.



Obi-Wan drove Dooku back briefly in AotC as well. Sources repeatedly note that Tyranus defeated Skywalker easily, anyway.



What's the quote for the growth in technical skill? This might your strongest case yet. I thought DD was in the midst of Anakin's growth anyways.

DarthAnt66
Frankly, when one source of five says one thing, and then four of five says another, I'm inclined to completely reject the former as an outlier. In this case, the adult novel, movie, comic, and video-game show Skywalker dominating. In contrast, the junior novel says Skywalker fought equally. I acknowledge that, but dismiss it under the grounds of inconsistency. Lelaand Chee has stated that the number of sources stating a fact is a prime thing looked at in determining the overall truth.


I'm asking why the discussion is even relevant.


My rebuttal to this was one you dismissed for not making sense, so allow me to explain.

The adult novel, comic, and video-game undeniably shows Skywalker as vastly superior.

Thus, by using this argument, you're effectively positioning a tertiary source above primary and secondary sources.

To reconcile the contradictions, I'm forced to interpret "to contend with" as even less to the extent AotC Kenobi could contend with Dooku. Furthermore, let's examine the main sources here:

Primary sources:
- Movie: Dooku can "contend," but clearly outmatched.
- Script: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.

Secondary sources:
- Comic: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.
- Adult Novel: Dooku can "contend," but clearly outmatched.
- Junior Novel: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.

The list goes on, but those are the main five sources. As shown, more sources actually paint the picture Dooku cannot even contend, let alone to the extent you are trying to imply. Thus, I have the grounds to dismiss the Fact Files quote, a tertiary source, as an outlier. However, I'm being generous and, like I said, rationalizing it as Dooku can contend, but only just. And then with Skywalker, who's even more dominating than Dooku, he can't even do that.


Yes, but explicitly not to the same extent as Skywalker. Kenobi driving him back doesn't help your case either.


Again, let us see:

Primary sources;
- Movie: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Script: Skywalker cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.

Secondary sources:
- Comic: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Adult Novel: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Junior Novel: Skywalker can "contend," but only just.

So, again, as per the five chief sources, a majority describes Skywaker as contending, with three showing him pushing Dooku very impressively.

Yes, other sources, like Fact Files, encyclopedia entries, etc. might also support Dooku won easily, but I'm inclined to believe just as many also say Skywalker performed well, based on the above statistics.


Before I answer, can you confirm Skywalker used Djem So during the Clone Wars prior to the Outer Rim Sieges?


The growth occurred during the Outer Rim Sieges, in which Windu noted he hadn't seen Skywalker in months. DD was still when Skywalker routinely visited the Council, meaning he had yet to go off to war.

DarthAnt66
Also, I recognize my post was lengthly, but please just respond to relevant portions (ex. "I agree" and "OKs" don't need responses). Also lump sections together and be concise. If it's too long, I won't respond.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Frankly, when one source of five says one thing, and then four of five says another, I'm inclined to completely reject the former as an outlier. In this case, the adult novel, movie, comic, and video-game show Skywalker dominating. In contrast, the junior novel says Skywalker fought equally. I acknowledge that, but dismiss it under the grounds of inconsistency. Lelaand Chee has stated that the number of sources stating a fact is a prime thing looked at in determining the overall truth.

Well, in fairness, he also says "which explanation is cooler" is a factor, which basically sounds like "pick the explanation you like most!"



The disparity here is that I don't view the script as a primary source. It's an old prototype of the fight with a number of significant changes being made to it, and it's not even canon. At best, it's tertiary, for me. And the comic and junior novel (to an extent) follow that, whereas the adult novel seems to follow the movie, which is the only primary source here.



I have three more quotes about this being a draw. And as I said, the script is tertiary for me. So primary has Dooku contending, secondary has Dooku being outclassed (one contending source versus two outclassing sources), and tertiary is filled with support for Dooku contending. So I think that's the majority there.



Lightsaber combat is pretty random. Inferior duelists can usually drive back superior ones is they take them by surprise, which Obi-Wan did against Dooku.



The movie does have Anakin contending, but the junior novel explains that Dooku was toying with Anakin. So it's questionable here.

Also, are you of the thought that if there's, say, 10 tertiary sources, does that override 1 primary source, or do you believe that any single source, as long as it's primary, takes precedence over an infinite amount of "lesser sources"? And what about secondary sources?



I'm pretty sure he did. I don't have quotes on hand, though.



Alright.

DarthAnt66
While he has the ability to deem a source canon because he likes it more, we don't, so we must use the amount of sources for reference to be objective.


A script is considered a primary source, since secondary sources like the junior novel and comic are derived from it.

- "In the arts, typical primary sources would be paintings, musical scores or recordings, and scripts." (http://library.missouri.edu/guides/primarysources/)

- "Scripts, press kits, and posters are considered primary sources for film research." (http://libguides.bgsu.edu/c.php?g=227176&p=1505849)

- "Primary Sources in Film Studies... and television/movie scripts." http://libguides.lib.msu.edu/c.php?g=95833&p=624749)

Furthermore, your argument doesn't make much sense. The adult novel, which you cite as the leading secondary source, is the prime piece of evidence on why Skywalker is greater than Yoda, which has been a hotly contested point. By accepting said work as a leading secondary source, along with accepting the Revenge of the Sith novelization as another credible secondary work, Skywalker's vast superiority to Dooku and notable superiority to Yoda is evident and indisputable, thus rendering your tertiary source irrelevant.


I, likewise, have numerous tertiary sources stating Dooku nearly lost his life, so I don't think our discussion can be decided on that unless we want to count all five-hundred sources describing the fight.


Which work describes him taking Dooku by surprise? That seems to be in the minority.

Also, clarify what this point holds in regards to the overall debate. What are you trying to dispute?


The junior novel shows Skywalker pushing Dooku back when taken by surprise, but ultimately was no match in the end. I never got the impression he was toying.

Even if we want to write off the junior novel as Dooku beating him easily, in which I'd disagree with, Skywalker contending is still in the majority.


That's certainly a good question. I'm not sure I can give an overall answer - just one on a case by case basis.

For the content we are dealing with, there's not an unprecedented number of tertiary sources disputing claims from primary or secondary.

When inconsistency is found, it's generally evenly split or a majority is well aligned with leading sources.


Well, I just did a search across all my Star Wars works on my computer, and no results for Skywalker using Djem So were found in any books predating 2008 besides the Revenge of the Sith novel. If anyone can confirm some Clone Wars novel refers to Skywalker's use of Djem So, please let me know. It should be noted ahead of time that I would be unlikely to accept an encyclopedic work, such as The Clone Wars character encyclopedia or Visual Guide, as proof of his utilization of Djem So, due to sake of consistency with how we're handling this debate with primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. Only novels, really.

Otherwise, Skywalker would have completely mastered Djem So between Dark Disciple and Revenge of the Sith, proving my point of a mass skill increase above Dooku.

SunRazer
I'll respond later.

SunRazer
I might consider responding in full tomorrow, but I did find the quote about Maul's skills:

Nephthys
https://media.giphy.com/media/ZT8hztpnWecQE/giphy.gif

Zenwolf
Legends =/= Canon, don't work.

Yes, yes "TCW is a hybrid!"

Which I think is a bunch of bull(with few small exceptions).

SunRazer
@Neph - A better display than Dooku failing to sense Hondo's pet stealing his lightsabers, or Anakin failing to beat Clovis in unarmed combat. lmfao

Nephthys
Is it though? erm

SunRazer
Maul failing to finish off a trained Bounty Hunter is better than Anakin being unable to even get a Senator into that prone position to begin with.

Nephthys
http://drewsviews.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Anakin-throwing-a-beatdown-on-Clovis.jpg

Anakin whooped Clovis, actually.

SunRazer
After an embarrassing back-and-forth between the two.

Although, granted, it was Padme's calling that made him hesitate and allow Clovis to strike back, IIRC.

Embarrassing all the same.

FreshestSlice
Not really. It was an emotionally draining situation in hand to hand combat. As compared to say, missing someone over and over again with a ****ing laser sword, it's really not that bad.

Beniboybling
"Emotionally draining" lmao.

Nova is right, Clovis was holding is own. And Dooku getting pick-pocketed by a monkey takes the biscuit.

FreshestSlice
Yeah, for some reason Anakin cares about issues involving his wife.

And so? That wasn't the point being made.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by SunRazer
After an embarrassing back-and-forth between the two.

Although, granted, it was Padme's calling that made him hesitate and allow Clovis to strike back, IIRC.

Embarrassing all the same. Clovis got like one hit in, IIRC.

Zenwolf
Nah, he got in 3 hits, though one was when Anakin was distracted by Padme.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Nah, he got in 3 hits, though one was when Anakin was distracted by Padme. I only count clean hits as hits.

The part where he kicked Anakin's leg doesn't count to me.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Jmanghan
I only count clean hits as hits.

The part where he kicked Anakin's leg doesn't count to me.

https://youtu.be/jC6F-Yf0dzo?t=67

1:07 the hit when he was distracted by Padme.

1:27 a double kick to his face.

1:33 spin kick to his face.

SunRazer
@Ant - Another quote for Sidious thinking Maul's skills are unparalleled:

UCanShootMyNova
... Am I the only one that notices what's wrong with the above quote?

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