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Just curious what the consensus is here...


-8th Day Juggernaut-

https://s3.postimg.org/fkd9s6vqr/image.jpg


VS.


-Kuurth-

https://s3.postimg.org/4yxztxesz/image.jpg


VS.


-Classic Juggernaut-

https://s12.postimg.org/oogwnduzx/image.jpg



Stips:
-All versions start at their peaks -- in classic Juggy's case, his FF is up.
-Battle takes place in the Arena Monarch used in Countdown (we'll assume it is indestructible/inescapable.)
-They fight to the death OR 10-count KO -- H2H only.


Who is the ultimate version of Juggy?

8th Day...............all day every day. Runner up, Classic Juggernaut. Kuurth dead last.

Interesting. I figured people would place a double-enchanted Kuurth higher.


How does 8th Day bypass classic's FF, iyo?

Originally posted by Galan007
Interesting. I figured people would place a double-enchanted Kuurth higher.


How does 8th Day bypass classic's FF, iyo?
8th Day was classic Juggernaut..........on steroids. He crushed Thor like a feeb and ignored all his attacks. IMHO, he'd muscle through Classic Juggs shield and beat him down.

Classic Juggernaut took a Godblast to the face and only complained that it was SLOWLY forcing him back. He claimed he could have muscled forward but the ground gave way before he could put that claim to the test.

Kuurth has NEVER beaten anyone on Thor's level (like 8th day did) nor has he taken a hit from an attack on the level of a Godblast (like Classic Juggs did). That's why I place him third.

Well, Thor was almost certainly weakened to some degree, as he'd just been getting slapped around by Enrakt right before 8th Day appeared. That said, I could agree that 8th Day is physically stronger than classic(that much was outright stated), but it's really hard to imagine him muscling through that pesky FF. /shrug

I can follow your logic with Kuurth, I suppose, but I'd honestly be shocked if he wasn't right up there with 8th Day in terms of strength. The enchantments he was packing are no joke.

Originally posted by Galan007
I can follow your logic with Kuurth, I suppose, but I'd honestly be shocked if he wasn't right up there with 8th Day in terms of strength. The enchantments he was packing are no joke.
Keep in mind, Juggernaut was nowhere near full power Classic Juggernaut when the Serpent chose him as a minion.

So it was depowered Juggernaut PLUS Serpent's power that = DP Kuurth.

Classic Juggernaut's shield was, for all intents and purposes, unbreakable. The original Marvel rpg, from the era of classic Juggs, ranked his force field at CL3000. That was a high-Celestial level rank (and in that era, Celestials were above Galactus). Thor's, Juggernaut's, Herc's etc. physical strength was CL100. The durabilities of true adamantium and Cap's shield were CL1000 (iirc). Juggs' unstoppability was at CL1000. But his shield was much stronger.

http://silycndrgn.tripod.com/super/juggs.htm

8th Day Juggs might not be able to hurt Classic, despite likely having much greater strength.

Cain was spiritually bound if anyone can recall how, and when the possession took place in the first place. With that said, I'm not entirely certain how much power Cytorrak was willing to impart to the usurper Kuurth, so then it becomes virtually impossible to answer this question and be 100% correct.

Implied power should place Kuurth at the top (maybe), followed by 8th Day Cain, and then Classic Juggernaut at dead last. However I can't see how Kuurth would ever be able to defeat 8th Day Juggernaut. So, stalemate between those two.

Tricky question Galan.

Originally posted by zopzop
Keep in mind, Juggernaut was nowhere near full power Classic Juggernaut when the Serpent chose him as a minion.

So it was depowered Juggernaut PLUS Serpent's power that = DP Kuurth. you sure about that? When magik and colossus went to cyttorak to ask him to remove the enchantment, he basically replied that juggernaut as he was at that point was doing him proud. Seems like there would be no reason for juggs to still be depowered at that point if he had earned back the favor of cyttorak.

/shrug

Originally posted by deathslash
you sure about that?
Yup. The scan was posted on the forums a few years back. It was Huggernaut (aka depowered Jugs) that was chosen by the Serpent.

Originally posted by deathslash
you sure about that? When magik and colossus went to cyttorak to ask him to remove the enchantment, he basically replied that juggernaut as he was at that point was doing him proud. Seems like there would be no reason for juggs to still be depowered at that point if he had earned back the favor of cyttorak.

/shrug I'd be inclined to agree. Cyttorak was VERY happy with Cain/Kuurth initially -- "Marko acts as I would have always wished. He is a hymn to destruction! To my glory!":
http://i.imgur.com/qiewep1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45fJgvz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Rh3a0QX.jpg

It wasn't until Magik pointed out the fact that Cain was also serving another master that Cyttorak got pissed and cut off that portion of his power... But as mentioned: it's hard to imagine Cyttorak withholding power from him beforehand, given how thrilled he was with the havoc Cain was causing. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd be inclined to agree. Cyttorak was VERY happy with Cain/Kuurth initially -- "Marko acts as I would have always wished. He is a hymn to destruction! To my glory!":
http://i.imgur.com/qiewep1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45fJgvz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Rh3a0QX.jpg

It wasn't until Magik pointed out the fact that Cain was also serving another master that Cyttorak got pissed and cut off that portion of his power... But as mentioned: it's hard to imagine Cyttorak withholding power from him beforehand, given how thrilled he was with the havoc Cain was causing. /shrug
I get that, but the version of Juggernaut that was chosen by Serpent was the DEPOWERED one. I wish I had the scan.

Here it is, it was THIS version that got the Serpent's power :
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/superman-vs-juggs-please-read-op-645956/?page=1#js-message-6728350

Yeah, I figured that's what you were referring to.

While I understand Juggs was depowered initially, I'm just saying that it'd make sense for Cyttorak to stop withholding power from him once he started causing all that destruction... I just don't see Cyttorak keeping a 'model avatar', of whom he was extremely pleased with, depowered.

Not saying your stance is illogical/incorrect in the slightest. The above just makes the most sense to me, is all.

Originally posted by zopzop
I get that, but the version of Juggernaut that was chosen by Serpent was the DEPOWERED one. I wish I had the scan.

Here it is, it was THIS version that got the Serpent's power :
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/superman-vs-juggs-please-read-op-645956/?page=1#js-message-6728350

Well not really. Kuurth did have Cytorrak's blessing at first, but then once Cytorrak was brought up to speed, he refused to work as one with the Serpent because he was fooled into the deal via a binding spell. In short, Kuurth only later became nerfed.

I'm assuming that we are using Kuurth when he was at full power? Which would be before Cytorrak learned that Cain had become Apostate. Not sure at this point though.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm assuming that we are using Kuurth when he was at full power? Originally posted by Galan007
Stips:
-All versions start at their peaks

Originally posted by Galan007

I get what you're also saying Zop. You think that even though Kuurth had some of Cytorrak's power, he may not have gotten the amount that 8th Day was taking in. I'm inclined to agree. Then it goes back to not being able to answer this question with 100% certainty. They're both over Classic, but when it comes to each other, it's really anyone's guess.

Then again, Kuurth was breaking Piotr's bones when they collided, so we saw Kuurth fight Cytorraks avatar.

Originally posted by Stoic
They're both over Classic, but when it comes to each other, it's really anyone's guess. In the raw strength department sure, but the reason I included classic is because of that FF -- it was insanely haxx and could certainly bridge that strength-gap, imo.

*I know classic has crap showings, but remember: he's at his peak here. So think Thor v1 #411-412, 429. I'd call those showings his peak.

Originally posted by Stoic
They're both over Classic, but when it comes to each other, it's really anyone's guess.
8th Day for sure is, Kuurth isn't IMHO.


Peter never once used his force field. Classic Juggernaut was about to be KOed by Thor (when Thor nullified his force field with Mjolnir). So Juggs without FF isn't anything special compared to other CL100 beings. Once the FF was up, Thor's fists couldn't even touch Cain.
https://s14.postimg.org/6gjfmuw3x/Thor_Juggernaut_4.jpg

We also know that Peter was a complete failure both as Avatar of Cyttorak AND Host of the PF. Yet this failure was manhandling Kuurth and pushing him back over the runes he had cast. Before they reached the starting point, Serpent teleported Kuurth away because the explosion would have resulted in his death. Yet Peter, with NO Force field, was able to survive it.

DP Kuurth never faced off against any being greater than meta. That's a fact. Classic Juggeranut faced off against and withstood Marvel's elite Herald's best attack (Thor's Godblast).

Originally posted by zopzop
https://s14.postimg.org/6gjfmuw3x/Thor_Juggernaut_4.jpg Damn, bro. You need to update your collection with some HD rips:
http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/30023158_13.jpg



Originally posted by zopzop
We also know that Peter was a complete failure both as Avatar of Cyttorak AND Host of the PF. That's not what Cyttorak himself thought:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30022330_Uncanny-Xmen-15-pg-007.jpg

. Okay so 8th Day crushes a nerfed Kuurth.

. Full powered Kuurth has an enchanted weapon, Cyttorak and Kuurth are working in unison. I don't believe that Cyttorak unknowingly gave Cain as much power as Cain willfully took from him on the 7th and 8th Day though. I would easily place 8th Day as being twice as powerful Classic sans FF, while being just as tough.

. Classic eventually wrecks nerfed Kuurth because he just keeps coming back due to the FF and strength backing.

. 8th Day throws Classic around for eternity, as neither would ever get tired. 8th Day probably wins due to being the overall most powerful.

The question here is that force field's toughness, vs how tough 8th Day's toughness was in comparison to it. I saw Thor give both pause with his best shots. Both times, these shots were barely noticed.

I have to go with 8th Day on this one. I think that he had more overall power than any Juggernaut outside of Piotr's full released form.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's not what Cyttorak himself thought:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30022330_Uncanny-Xmen-15-pg-007.jpg
Cytorrak only cares about the destruction wrought in his name. He straight up says it. In those terms, then yes he's great.

In forum terms, he's a failure. Did he beat ANYONE above meta with his Juggernaut powers? At least Classic Juggs was a confirmed team wrecker and had gone up against Herald level beings.

Originally posted by Stoic
I have to go with 8th Day on this one. I think that he had more overall power than any Juggernaut outside of Piotr's full released form.
Again, my friend, on panel Full Relased Peter never faced off against anyone above meta. 8th Day crushed Thor (Marvel's Elite High Herald) like an insect while laughing off Mjollnir strikes.

You did leave out one more Juggernaut though : Trion. I'd place him at or above 8th day level but I'm willing to listen to counter arguments.
https://s15.postimg.org/ok2owp9h7/2552195_1694580_juggy_rampage_super.jpg

IMHO (based on on panel fights and feats) :
8th Day/Trion >>> Classic Juggernaut > Dual Power Kuurth.

Funny thing is: I personally think Kuurth(with his magically enchanted weapon) has the best shot at piercing classic's FF. /shrug

Originally posted by zopzop
Again, my friend, on panel Full Relased Peter never faced off against anyone above meta. 8th Day crushed Thor (Marvel's Elite High Herald) like an insect while laughing off Mjollnir strikes.

You did leave out one more Juggernaut though : Trion. I'd place him at or above 8th day level but I'm willing to listen to counter arguments.
https://s15.postimg.org/ok2owp9h7/2552195_1694580_juggy_rampage_super.jpg

IMHO (based on on panel fights and feats) :
8th Day/Trion >>> Classic Juggernaut > Dual Power Kuurth. Trion is clearly the most powerful version of the character. Not even 8th Day could physically punch through dimensional walls like they were tissue paper.

Originally posted by Galan007
Funny thing is: I personally think Kuurth(with his magically enchanted weapon) has the best shot at piercing classic's FF. /shrug
How when Mjollnir itself couldn't?
https://s22.postimg.org/4siumwaoh/Hero_Envy_Juggernauts_force_field.gif

And Mjollnir one shot KO/Killed another of Serpent's minions : Agnir.
https://s15.postimg.org/5y6gccref/thor_vs_nul_and_angrir_4.jpg
Then flash KOed Nul.

^ Thor didn't try to negate Juggy's FF there. We know Mjolnir had the ability to do so, however(see Thor #429.) That's why I think Kuurth has the best chance at doing so... No way in hell you'll convince me that 8th Day is punching through it or w/e.


Sidenote:
What if 8th Day KO'd Kuurth and took his Hammer? F*ck. Me. none

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Thor didn't try to negate Juggy's FF there. We know Mjolnir had the ability to do so, however(see Thor #429.) That's why I think Kuurth has the best chance at doing so...
Just because Mjollnir could do it, doesn't mean Kuurth's hammer could. In fact, what has Kuurth's hammer done on panel aside from mundane bashing and energy attacks?



Maybe, maybe not. Even if it's an eternal stalemate we do know 8th Day >>>> CLassic Jugs. So there's that.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just because Mjollnir could do it, doesn't mean Kuurth's hammer could. In fact, what has Kuurth's hammer done on panel aside from mundane bashing and energy attacks? Again: I didn't say Kuurth could do it as a certainty -- just that he likely has the best shot. Imo, high-level magical enchantments have a better shot at bypassing the FF than brute force.

Originally posted by zopzop
Maybe, maybe not. Even if it's an eternal stalemate we do know 8th Day >>>> CLassic Jugs. So there's that. I agree he's much stronger, but strength doesn't count for much when you can't inflict any physical damage. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Again: I didn't say Kuurth could do it as a certainty -- just that he likely has the best shot. Imo, high-level magical enchantments have a better shot at bypassing the FF than brute force.

Enter the Godblast. If that's not a high level magical attack, I don't know what is. Juggernaut's shield held.

Originally posted by zopzop
How when Mjollnir itself couldn't?
https://s22.postimg.org/4siumwaoh/Hero_Envy_Juggernauts_force_field.gif

And Mjollnir one shot KO/Killed another of Serpent's minions : Agnir.
https://s15.postimg.org/5y6gccref/thor_vs_nul_and_angrir_4.jpg
Then flash KOed Nul.

Nul was never KO'd, this is a myth. We see him talking in space and gripping his weapon in full control. He lands back on Earth without any injury. He wasn't even fazed, he was floated.

Piotr held Cytorrak's power in check. He spoke of keeping his power in check so what we saw was a guy slightly stronger than base Colossus running around holding an enormous amount of power from spilling out. We got a taste of it when he mangled Rulk.

We've never seen his best, but he would have certainly put the boots to Thor in his released form. You can't simply ignore context, and then turn around to show Cain fighting at his best, while ignoring the fact that Piotr held the bulk of his power back Zop.

Originally posted by zopzop
Enter the Godblast. If that's not a high level magical attack, I don't know what is. Juggernaut's shield held. Absolutely. But again: it's purpose wasn't to negate the shield. A more specific enchantment was required for that(Again: Thor #429.)

As I have reiterated: I don't know if a negation spell would even be in Kuurth's bag of tricks. I just see him, with his high-level mystical weaponry, having a *better* shot at bypassing the shield than 8th Day.

Which Juggs did War Hulk fight?

Standard.

I thought so.

Colossus stated that NOBODY has ever hit him as hard as Kurth did and that was Kurth without Cytorak's power. So if a depowered Kurth can break the bones of a juggernaut who was given more power than Cain ever was (stated by Cytorak himself) until this new Cain juggernaut, I would say Kurth with both enhancements was UBER powerful and almost untouchable. Magneto had zero effect on his hammer. That's a truly impressive thing alone. I give this fight to full power Kurth, then 8th Day, then juggs

Originally posted by Anadrol1
Colossus stated that NOBODY has ever hit him as hard as Kurth did and that was Kurth without Cytorak's power. So if a depowered Kurth can break the bones of a juggernaut who was given more power than Cain ever was (stated by Cytorak himself) until this new Cain juggernaut, I would say Kurth with both enhancements was UBER powerful and almost untouchable. Magneto had zero effect on his hammer. That's a truly impressive thing alone. I give this fight to full power Kurth, then 8th Day, then juggs

Context. Piotr held the bulk of that power in check. For example, we saw him in his full released form, and he mangled Rulk. Colossus was nowhere near that level of power when he fought Kuurth.

Originally posted by Anadrol1
Colossus stated that NOBODY has ever hit him as hard as Kurth did and that was Kurth without Cytorak's power. So if a depowered Kurth can break the bones of a juggernaut who was given more power than Cain ever was (stated by Cytorak himself)
WHich means nothing since Peter never succumbed. In fact, Colossunaut was overpowering Kuurth pushing him back rune by rune till they reached Kuurth's starting point.

The Serpent panicked and teleported Kuurth away from the explosion because Kuurth would have died. Colossuanut took that explosion point blank and was alive and unharmed.

https://s18.postimg.org/s4x6tlwlh/colossus_vs_kuurth_5.jpg

I definitely go with Kuurth as the most powerful. A DP version BROKE Juggs bones (Colossus). If we assume that Cyttorak gave Colossus near full power then Kuurth should bypass Classic Juggs FF with physical force. Plus he has teleporting abilities and couldn't be BFR. The hammer was unstoppable. I believe it has a chance of physically bypassing Classic Juggs FF.

After that I go with 8th day and then Classic. I do believe that 8th day could have tanked the Godblast equally. I see no reason to believe not.

Galan I have a question.
Do you think the writer of 8th day Juggs referenced (in his mind) or at least knew about Classic Juggs feat against the Godblast?

What about Faction, the writer of Kuurth?

I mean, I'd like to *think* writers would be familiar with a character's history before they begin portraying them... But that certainly doesn't always seem to be the case.

srug

Originally posted by zopzop
WHich means nothing since Peter never succumbed. In fact, Colossunaut was overpowering Kuurth pushing him back rune by rune till they reached Kuurth's starting point.

The Serpent panicked and teleported Kuurth away from the explosion because Kuurth would have died. Colossuanut took that explosion point blank and was alive and unharmed.

https://s18.postimg.org/s4x6tlwlh/colossus_vs_kuurth_5.jpg whoa, whoa, whoa there hold on a minute. It was said that he was whisked away because the serpent didn't want to RISK his death. That doesn't mean that he knew for sure if cain would die. In the middle of a war, a commander can recall his soldiers and retreat because he doesn't want to risk losing them. It doesn't mean that there's an absolute certainty that they'll die. Just wanted to point that out.

Yeah, but he didn't whisk him away against Cyclops' 2345757349 different plans - only against Piotr.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, but he didn't whisk him away against Cyclops' 2345757349 different plans - only against Piotr. that doesn't necessarily mean that the explosion would have killed him. It could mean that the explosion would soften him up enough for colossus to finish the job. Also, do we know how powerful piotr was when he fought kuurth? I'm pretty sure that colossus was far more powerful than the average juggernaut.

He was having his bones broken, which if we take classic Juggs as the yardstick, would never have happened..

Circular logic, true...

Bump for the lulz.

I think the current juggernaut finally stopped holding back and just beat Cyttorak in his own realm.

Current Juggernaut > 8th Day and Kuurth at the same time. Go Juggs Go

If we go by strength then
1. FP Kuurth (he broke bones of a full powered juggs without the cyttorak power)
2. 8th day
3. Classic Juggs

In terms of durability
1. Classic
2. 8th day
3. Kuurth

Therefore it is a three way tie.

/thread