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In the Dark Empire audio drama, when Luke is dueling Sidious, Leia notes the following:

"The Force so strong... They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them... I-I feel waves of power... the dark side and the light... But... I feel... the light is winning!"

Was Luke overpowering Sidious in the Force? It couldn't have been in reference to lightsaber combat because Leia specifically noted she can't see them move, and the clashing of lightsabers doesn't produce ripples in the Force.

What are your thoughts?

You can sense who's getting stronger or weaker (or more desperate) in the Force.

Besides, Luke was being amped here.

Leia didn't make note of any emotions.

And no, Luke wasn't amped. The nexus of the Eclipse would've counter-balanced Leia's BM.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You can sense who's getting stronger or weaker (or more desperate) in the Force.

Besides, Luke was being amped here.

It's an audio drama, you can only get so much information out of it/they only have so much time to talk. The fact is that you can sense people winning and losing fights through the Force. This isn't anything new.

Based on what? Leia's BM was capable of hurting even Palpatine. And it appears that BM transcends nexuses in the SW mythos - Satele's BM took precedence over Yavin IV's nexus, Worror's BM took precedence over the nexus of Belia Darzu's fortress, Bastila Shan's BM took precedence over the Star Forge's nexus, etc.

I've yet to see an instance of the reverse or equalization.

Well, based on the information we have, Luke and Sidious were radiating Force energy, not emotions. And they had plenty of time to put another line in there, so that's not a valid excuse. If they wanted Leia to sense their emotions, they would've put it in. Based on her noting their strength in the Force, I think it's referring to power. I'm going with what is in the audio drama, not what isn't there.

The examples you listed - is it actually specifically noted they took precedence over the nexi? If not, then we've no reason to assume they did. If yes, then it's simply because they were more potent than the specific nexus in question. Something I doubt Leia's accidental and elementary BM was compared to the greatest nexus she had ever felt (note: she has been on Byss, which is more potent than Sidious himself as of RotJ).

You don't need to sense emotions to tell who's getting stronger.

Yes, it is noted that they took precedence. Every single time.

Palpatine takes pity on Luke and goes easy as always. He's a nice man old Sheev

Originally posted by Azronger
Leia didn't make note of any emotions.

And no, Luke wasn't amped. The nexus of the Eclipse would've counter-balanced Leia's BM. No it wouldn't :/

Originally posted by Azronger
The nexus of the Eclipse

Has this been confirmed?

Mind posting a quote or something, if you can?

Originally posted by SunRazer
You don't need to sense emotions to tell who's getting stronger.

Your point?



My point still stands. Mind posting the quotes, though?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Palpatine takes pity on Luke and goes easy as always. He's a nice man old Sheev

Based on the fact that your only response was a (bad) joke, I take it you couldn't muster a sufficient rebuttal. Care to prove me wrong?

Luke wasn't amped. It's only after the duel that Leia amps him.

From the audio drama, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

Originally posted by Trocity
Has this been confirmed?

Mind posting a quote or something, if you can?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5395365-the+eclipse+is+a+dark+side+nexus.png

Originally posted by ares834
Luke wasn't amped. It's only after the duel that Leia amps him.

From the audio drama, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours." So DE Luke > Sidious?

In a saber duel? Yes.

Originally posted by ares834
In a saber duel? Yes.

Even tho he utterly stomped Luke?

Not in the second duel. The previous one was on Byss which Palaptine described as "the very heart of the dark side."

People are really fond of taking things out of context. Byss is a ****ing gargantuan nexus.

Originally posted by ares834
Not in the second duel. The previous one was on Byss which Palaptine described as "the very heart of the dark side."

And apparently according to Leia, the Eclipse was even worse, even though that contradicts the end notes.

Desean > JA Luke > DE Luke > Wankatine lmao

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And apparently according to Leia, the Eclipse was even worse, even though that contradicts the end notes.

Or the dark side presence within the ship is Sheev, whom both the comic and the endnotes identify as a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And apparently according to Leia, the Eclipse was even worse, even though that contradicts the end notes.

Quote for the end notes?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Desean > JA Luke > DE Luke > Wankatine lmao

The Desann fight was circumstantial, but I'm sure you already know that. I'm also not arguing DE Luke > DE Sidious, because the latter still beats him in Force versatility. And then he grows even more powerful in DE II, where it seems he's surpassed Luke in raw power once more.

Originally posted by Azronger
Your point?

My point still stands. Mind posting the quotes, though?

My point being that your obsession over sensing emotions is unnecessary.

Bastila turned the tide against the Star Forge's defenses with her Battle Meditation, even when she did it within the SF, which meant she'd be hindered.

The character has "greatly enhanced combat efficiency" or some such in SoR, even when Satele was using BM on the dark side nexus of Yavin IV. In RoT, the Jedi don't note being obstructed by the nexus, but instead note being enhanced by Worror's Meditation. It's not hard to imagine which took precedence.

A passive concentration of Force energies in an area shouldn't be overriding active Force powers

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or the dark side presence within the ship is Sheev, whom both the comic and the endnotes identify as a dark side nexus.

I'm pretty sure the comic makes it clear that Leia's sensing the Emperor.

Originally posted by Azronger
The Desann fight was circumstantial, but I'm sure you already know that. I'm also not arguing DE Luke > DE Sidious, because the latter still beats him in Force versatility. And then he grows even more powerful in DE II, where it seems he's surpassed Luke in raw power once more.

Wait, Palpatine grows more powerful in Empire's End? I thought he was weakening by that point.

Empire's End is DE III.

^ oh ok, I remembered it as DE and EE I/II, but apparently not.

DE, DE II and EE.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Or the dark side presence within the ship is Sheev, whom both the comic and the endnotes identify as a dark side nexus.

People should keep in mind that Palpatine was using the cloned bodies to interact with the external environment during Dark Empire saga. His cloned bodies would deteriorate from exposure to his Dark practices with passage of time. And that in turn would compromise his effectiveness in combat situations.

Palpatine defeated Luke Skywalker in a battle, using a fresh cloned body. Not sure how fresh his cloned body was during his second confrontation with Luke on Eclipse.

Later, Palpatine failed to subdue even Leia Organa Solo in a confrontation with a massively deteriorated clone, and aimed for her newborn son to possess afterwards.

Originally posted by Azronger
Based on the fact that your only response was a (bad) joke, I take it you couldn't muster a sufficient rebuttal. Care to prove me wrong?
Hardly a joke, but you're right

Originally posted by SunRazer
My point being that your obsession over sensing emotions is unnecessary.

What "obsession"? I was arguing against Leia sensing emotions from Luke and Sidious.



Of course she was since she wasn't amping herself to counter the nexus. And she was affecting the fleet outside the Forge, wasn't she? So I don't get what the nexus has to do with things that aren't in the proximity.



Fair enough.



Yes they should if the "passive concentration of Force energies" are more potent than the "active Force powers", and vice versa, or in more simple terms, 2 > 1. This is basic logic.

Well, Leia's a Skywalker. She's got more raw power than any passive concentration of Force energies. And her Battle Meditation was hurting DE Palpatine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
People should keep in mind that Palpatine was using the cloned bodies to interact with the external environment during Dark Empire saga. His cloned bodies would deteriorate from exposure to his Dark practices with passage of time. And that in turn would compromise his effectiveness in combat situations.

Palpatine defeated Luke Skywalker in a battle, using a fresh cloned body. Not sure how fresh his cloned body was during his second confrontation with Luke on Eclipse.

Later, Palpatine failed to subdue even Leia Organa Solo in a confrontation with a massively deteriorated clone, and aimed for her newborn son to possess afterwards.

This is a misconception that needs clearing up. His bodies in DE II deteriorated at such a fast rate because of genetic manipulation, not because of Sidious' dark side power. This is explained in Crimson Empire. The body he uses in DE II is weaker than the one in DE I.

So no, he wasn't hindered when he fought Luke.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, Leia's a Skywalker. She's got more raw power than any passive concentration of Force energies. And her Battle Meditation was hurting DE Palpatine.

DE Leia > RotJ Sidious? Because the Eclipse is > RotJ Sidious.

And her BM in DE I was passive. Only in EE did she deliberately try to hurt Sidious.

No rebuttals have been made.

Give it time. People probably just don't have the time.

Or sometimes the thread gets lost under tons of other threads and you forget about it

Originally posted by Azronger
No rebuttals have been made.

What about Tempest's?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What about Tempest's?
Please don't say that Tempest makes something. He proclaims something, he prophecies something!
Thank you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What about Tempest's?

It was just a theory that could be true, or could not. There's not really a way to know.

Tempest made a completely valid point. Just because the dark side is strong in a place doesn't make that place a Nexus. That dark side energy could easily be coming from a person. A dark sider.

For instance Leia senses Darth Maul's dark side presence on Naboo decades after he was there.

So for a place to prove itself as a dark side Nexus, it needs to pass the test of "is it still a Nexus with no dark siders being there" first.

Well, the text said There is no glimmer of hope in this ship... only the dark side of the Force... more powerful than ever.

Now please tell me why it referred to Sidious, and not the Eclipse.

^ Well was Palpatine not on the ship?

Yes, on the ship, but not in it.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, on the ship, but not in it.

What he was sat on top of it on the outside? (Don't have DE on me so can't check exactly where he was).

In the English language, the right way to say is on the ship, or on the bus, etc. not "in". If they wanted Leia to be sensing Sidious, they would've put it in the text, grammatically correct.

^ No not necessarily.

Tell me how do you think a Ship becomes a dark side Nexus?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ No not necessarily.

No, but it's way more probable than them simply having bad grammar. Using that as an argument is desperation.



It's likely Sidious had embedded it with the dark side.

Originally posted by Azronger
No, but it's way more probable than them simply having bad grammar. Using that as an argument is desperation.




Lol what? Having Leia Indirectly sense Palpatine's power is not bad grammar. And neither is it a desperate conclusion. It's actually quite logical.



Originally posted by Azronger


It's likely Sidious had embedded it with the dark side.


Yes most likely by his mere presence.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol what? Having Leia Indirectly sense Palpatine's power is not bad grammar. And neither is it a desperate conclusion. It's actually quite logical.

Yes most likely by his mere presence.

Sidious doesn't transform everything he walks on into a nexus the magnitude of the Eclipse. He must've manually made it a nexus, which makes it separate from his power. Leia was sensing, and the text was referring to the ship.

^ No Leia was just sensing the power of the dark side coming from Palpatine's ship. That doesn't mean the ship itself was a dark side Nexus without Palpatine's presence.

Now it's possible Palpatine did some ritual and made it a dark side power over many years like he did on Byss. But seems unlikely to me he would do rituals like that to power a ship. It seems more likely that a place where Palpatine hangs out a lot would naturally give out a heavy dark side signature.

However it seems clear you're unwilling to accept that possibility, and just expect the rest of us to accept the ship itself is a dark side Nexus.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ No Leia was just sensing the power of the dark side coming from Palpatine's ship. That doesn't mean the ship itself was a dark side Nexus without Palpatine's presence.

Now it's possible Palpatine did some ritual and made it a dark side power over many years like he did on Byss. But seems unlikely to me he would do rituals like that to power a ship. It seems more likely that a place where Palpatine hangs out a lot would naturally give out a heavy dark side signature.

Palpatine's shuttle in EE was a dark side nexus Luke described as "intense," even though Palpatine wasn't there. Now, why wouldn't his flagship be a nexus, if his shuttle was?



I accept that anything's possible. And I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

That was only after the duel.

Originally posted by Azronger
Palpatine's shuttle in EE was a dark side nexus Luke described as "intense," even though Palpatine wasn't there. Now, why wouldn't his flagship be a nexus, if his shuttle was?




Is "Nexus" specifically mentioned? Or is it just a strong dark side presence from Palpatine's presence? I'm guessing the latter.

Palpatine doesn't even have to be there for his dark side essence to remain. Remember Leia sensing Maul's darkness on Naboo a generation after he fought there.

Why does it have to be specifically mentioned to be a nexus? Is there even such a thing as a strong dark side presence that is not a nexus?

Nerds.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, on the ship, but not in it.



Nautically appropriate word selections notwithstanding, Palpatine is literally inside the ship. The same Palpatine that the same comic refers to as a dark side nexus. The resurgent strength Leia senses, "more powerful than ever," is Palpatine himself:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/sidious%20more%20powerful_zpslhscsxq9.png

Besides which, even if we assumed without evidence that the Eclipse is a nexus, you'd have to assume that it would be more powerful than the nexus on Byss, which is absurd.

Hm, fair enough.

How potent do you think Leia's BM amp was, though?

The audio drama says it only unlocked hidden reserves within Luke.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The audio drama says it only unlocked hidden reserves within Luke.


The comic also says that. But area said before according to the radio drama Leia didn't intervene until after the Saber fight.

Who's area?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Who's area?

ares

Ah.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
ares Fool.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The comic also says that. But area said before according to the radio drama Leia didn't intervene until after the Saber fight.

Really?

IMO, it's a completely plausible explanation that it allowed Luke to tap into his potential more, instead of it being a such a massive amp. Luke's feat is legit.

Yeah but if he tapped into his potential more, it's still not an accurate reflection of his abilities as of DE.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Really?


Originally posted by ares834
Luke wasn't amped. It's only after the duel that Leia amps him.

From the audio drama, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

Doesn't Luke ask for her to help, and doesn't Leia saying "I already am" or something?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but if he tapped into his potential more, it's still not an accurate reflection of his abilities as of DE.

What's not accurate? That he was besting Sidious in a Force battle?

Originally posted by Azronger
What's not accurate? That he was besting Sidious in a Force battle?

If his potential was being unlocked during their duel, it isn't clear that he could've won without that.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If his potential was being unlocked during their duel, it isn't clear that he could've won without that.

And? I don't see what the issue is.

Then it doesn't tell us how good DE Luke really is.

You mean before the duel? Better than Yoda, apparently:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393739-6788966917-53937.jpg

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Doesn't Luke ask for her to help, and doesn't Leia saying "I already am" or something?


In the comic yeah. Although we don't know from the comic at which point she started helping him. The audio drama apparently suggests it was after the Saber fight.