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Rune King Thor:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Feats/017Thor.jpg

vs.

The Fourth Celestial Host:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138773/4650256-1461457-26343531.jpg

- Rune King Thor can access the Destroyer armor and the Odinsword.

Can Rune King Thor survive?

Celestials still stomp

Celestials.

Celestials

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Celestials still stomp Originally posted by Galan007
Celestials. Originally posted by iceman24567
Celestials
How? Regular Thor killed the most powerful Celestial in 616 reality with a magic axe.

Rune King Thor is ORDERS of magnitude more powerful than regular Thor.

Odin in the Destroyer armor was utterly shitstomped by the 4th Host. RKT might do a bit better than his father, but he ultimately gets pummeled in the end.

Originally posted by Galan007
Odin in the Destroyer armor was utterly shitstomped by the 4th Host. RKT might do a bit better than his father, but he ultimately gets pummeled in the end.
Odin didn't use the Celestial killing enchantment he had in his library. If he had, it would have been a Celestial Holocaust.

Okay?

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay?
My point is, Odin had that enchantment all along, he just chose not to use it because of 'dire consequences'. We know this was BS because the Twins killed SCORES of Celestials with the Axe and Thor offed Exitar with it with ZERO 'dire consequences' apparent.

RKT was omniscient (or as close as you can get to it) he'd know of the enchantment his father created and use it to WTFstomp these clowns.

You're acting like the Jarnbjorn enchantment was even a thought in the writers' heads back when Odin originally fought the Host. It obviously wasn't. That was just a plot-device Marvel came up with during the most recent Exitar fiasco... But that's neither here nor there.

I highly doubt that using Jarnbjorn is in the spirit of this thread, given that the OP doesn't mention it among Thor's options: "Rune King Thor can access the Destroyer armor and the Odinsword."

Sans ridiculous plot-devices, Thor gets stomped just like his daddy.

RKT doesn't need external sources friends.

RKT defied the "Norn Fates," and then even "Those Who Sit Above" ... in their own turf no less.

Odin is nothing to the "Fates" ... (on panel)

"Those Who Sit Above" once granted Loki the nine realms, (nine universes) but at the end of their time.

"Those Who Sit Above" are to the Asgardians,

what the Asgardians are to normal Humans.

Originally posted by Mr Master
RKT doesn't need external sources friends.

RKT defied the "Norn Fates," and then even "Those Who Sit Above" ... in their own turf no less.

Odin is nothing to the "Fates" ... (on panel)

"Those Who Sit Above" once granted Loki the nine realms, (nine universes) but at the end of their time.

"Those Who Sit Above" are to the Asgardians,

what the Asgardians are to normal Humans.

Yep, and RK Thor is well above Those that sit above. RK Thor obliterates them. There is absolutely nothing that the Celestials could do to him. RK Thor was written to hold all power over the metaphysical universe. Nothing in the physical universe had any effect on him, because things like pain, death, disease, fatigue, kayoed state, etc, hold no meaning to him. They can't kill him, or hurt him. I mean what are they going to throw at him that would affect him? The Celestial host are small fries compared to RK Thor (a true omniscient).

Celestials stomp.

The Fourth Celestial Host

The Norn Fates are unaffected by Satrina's attack, and then state:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/24157906_Norns_Supreme.jpg

"Our power be supreme ... none hath power against us, not even the All-Father Himself"

----------------------------

Daken asked them:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/24157925_Norns_Supreme2.jpg

"You can see the Future" ... The Norns reply: "We are the Future"

----------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------


The writer tells us about the realm of 'They Who Sit Above in Shadow:'

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24154657_RKT.jpg

"If Gods can be said to have Gods themselves, this is where they live"

----------------------------------------------------------

'Those Who Sit Above in Shadow' tell Loki:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24154658_RKT1.jpg

"We ... who are to Asgard as its immortal sons and daughters are to the realms of Men"

Notice, they also threaten Loki ...

Loki, doesn't pause to obey:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24154659_RKT2.jpg
http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/24154768_RKT3.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------

Loki found a loophole to defy the orders he was given,
so 'Those Who Sit Above in Shadow' gave Loki what he wanted, which was to rule the nine realms,
but they played Loki as Uatu appears and tells us,
they set Loki up at the end of time where the nine realms are heading towards entropy.

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24154661_RKT4.jpghttp://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24154662_RKT5.jpg

"With the slightest of thought,
the Ones Who Sit Above in Shadow, Gods to the Gods themselves, gave Loki what he wanted"

----------------------------------------------------------

This is proof positive that they didn't act against RKT, because they were powerless against him.

Towards the end, RKT was beyond the perception of the Odin-power:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146915_RKT0.jpg

RKT, teleports right into the realm of the Norn Fates:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146916_RKT00.jpg

Yet, within their own realm, they are unable to stop Thor: (Norn Fates > Odin)

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146917_RKT000.jpg

Heck, even when "Those Who Sit Above" manifested within the Fates' realm, still, no one was able to stop Thor:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146918_RKT0000.jpghttp://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146919_RKT00000.jpg

In the end, RKT, seemingly becomes one with the Universe:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24146920_RKT000000.jpg

RK Thor stomps.

He'd tear through them like they were foil paper

Originally posted by "Id"
The Fourth Celestial Host

I doubt RKT will win even against 1 Celestial.

One or two shitstomps

Celestials stomp.

RKT was omniscient. He would know of the axe that can kill Celestials (if he can't himself). But would it be considered outside help if a being can summon an artifact?

Originally posted by h1a8
RKT was omniscient. He would know of the axe that can kill Celestials (if he can't himself). But would it be considered outside help if a being can summon an artifact? When Superman threads are made, we typically don't assume his opponent will bring a Kryptonite knife to the battle... The same thing applies here, imo. The thread starter stated that RKT has access to the Destroyer and Odinsword -- that's it.


Anyway, I just want to repost this so that everyone remembers how effortlessly Odin /w/ Destroyer+Odinsword was dealt with by the 4th Host:
http://i.imgur.com/pIVDMkU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ovYKhLs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ApFSYUw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NCLdE5T.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TZam1Nt.jpg
*And remember: the Destroyer was also empowered by EVERY Godly pantheon at the time.


The ONLY way RKT wins is if he inextricably brings Jarnbjorn, OR if we apply one hell of a no-limits fallacy to him... Neither of which are exactly logical, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
When Superman threads are made, we typically don't assume his opponent will bring a Kryptonite knife to the battle... The same thing applies here, imo. The thread starter stated that RKT has access to the Destroyer and Odinsword -- that's it.


Anyway, I just want to repost this so that everyone remembers how effortlessly Odin /w/ Destroyer+Odinsword was dealt with by the 4th Host:
http://i.imgur.com/pIVDMkU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ovYKhLs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ApFSYUw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NCLdE5T.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TZam1Nt.jpg
*And remember: the Destroyer was also empowered by EVERY Godly pantheon at the time.


The ONLY way RKT wins is if he inextricably brings Jarnbjorn, OR if we apply one hell of a no-limits fallacy to him... Neither of which are exactly logical, imo.

I can agree with that. Just didn't know the forum rules about a character being able to magically teleport an item to the battlefield. So Celestials win and it's a stomp.

It took the combined attack of 5 Celestials to overcome Odin, meanwhile it only took 3 Celestials to pwn Galactus.

Odin did better than Gactus.

Originally posted by t0sh
It took the combined attack of 5 Celestials to overcome Odin, meanwhile it only took 3 Celestials to pwn Galactus.

Odin did better than Gactus. it wasn't just Odin, context.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
it wasn't just Odin, context.
And it still took more to defeat him than it did to defeat Galactus.

Odin (Highest Showings) > Galactus (4 Planets)

Originally posted by t0sh
And it still took more to defeat him than it did to defeat Galactus.

Odin (Highest Showings) > Galactus (4 Planets) still irrelevant as it wasn't just Odin. And it's not as if the Celestials Odin took on were as powerful as the mad Celestials Galactus fought.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
still irrelevant as it wasn't just Odin. And it's not as if the Celestials Odin took on were as powerful as the mad Celestials Galactus fought.
That argument has already been debunked:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105634/3998031-hickman+616+is+alternate.png

Odin (Highest Showings) > Galactus (4 Planets) > Galactus (1 Planet) > Odin (Normal)

After Galactus fed on 4 planets, he was clearly superior to the team of 4 Mad Celestials individually. They had to merge to defeat him -- and the merged Celestial was demonstrably > the individual sum of its parts.

Hell, even after Galactus was resurrected by Franklin, he was still capable of killing individual Celestials outright.

Originally posted by Galan007
After Galactus fed on 4 planets, he was clearly superior to the team of 4 Mad Celestials individually. They had to merge to defeat him -- and the merged Celestial was demonstrably > the individual sum of its parts.

Hell, even after Galactus was resurrected by Franklin, he was still capable of killing individual Celestials outright.
Galactus would have lost to the team of 4 Celestials, even if they hadn't merged.

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80103/4431848-1313849180-39980.jpg

It took 4 to beat Galactus and 9 to beat Odin.

Odin > Galactus

You guys really don't know what you're talking about.

Glad writer interviews are not admissible on the forums.

Based on what we saw in the actual comic, amped Galactus > the Mad Celestials individually. Not only was he casually fighting all of them simultaneously, but he killed one of them outright just as easily.


Do *you* know what *you're* talking about, lol?

Originally posted by Galan007
Glad writer interviews are not admissible on the forums.

Based on what we saw in the actual comic, amped Galactus > the Mad Celestials individually. Not only was he casually fighting all of them simultaneously, but he killed one of them outright just as easily.


Do you know what you're talking about, lol?
The writer holds precedence over you, making you wrong and me 100% right.

Again: writer interviews are NOT admissible on the forums, per the rules:
Originally posted by Badabing
An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc.

Keep trolling, though. It's cute.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again: writer interviews are NOT admissible on the forums, per the rules:


Keep trolling, though. It's cute.
It's not my fault you won't admit you're wrong.

It's not very often you see the alpha flight appearance of those who sit above get posted.

Kudos Mr.M

At any rate, I don't think the supremacy of the norns, those who sit above, RKT, translates all that well to the universe at large. Not for a KMC vs format at least. How powerful do you have to be to break the ragnarok cycle? More powerful than Odin for sure, but what is that compared to the host?

Originally posted by t0sh
It's not my fault you won't admit you're wrong. ...Says the dolt who just got shut down.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Says the troll who just got shut down.
That is the rules on this board, it's not the rules on Comic-Vine, therefore it's not a principal or a fact. A writer who writes the entire story over-rides the subjective interpretation of a fan, such as yourself. Your comprehension of the events within the story are merely second nature in comparison to the actual writer who wrote it.

This ultimately means you're wrong.

Please use the terminology 'troll' correctly, as you're misusing it right now. If you need to know the definition of the word and how to use it correctly, I'll be sure to help you if you need the help.

If you don't like the rules here, then go away. On KMC, writer interviews are not admissible as evidence, and that's that. Simple.

If you continue to ignore the rules solely to spout off this faux-intellectual banter because you are too childish to admit that you're wrong, I will report you for doing exactly what you are doing: being a troll.

The choice is yours... Either way, I'm not feeding your BS any longer.

Originally posted by t0sh
That argument has already been debunked:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105634/3998031-hickman+616+is+alternate.png

Odin (Highest Showings) > Galactus (4 Planets) > Galactus (1 Planet) > Odin (Normal) what a writer says means nothing on this board. Try again. Plus the mad Celestials were killing infinity gauntlet, ultimate nullifier, Starband wielders in one shot.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
what a writer says means nothing on this board. Try again. Plus the mad Celestials were killing infinity gauntlet, ultimate nullifier, Starband wielders in one shot.
A writer holds precedence over your subjective interpretation, which likely derive from a sense of bias.

Originally posted by t0sh
A writer holds precedence over yourself subjective interpretation. not on here he doesn't maybe on a half assed board he does. So cry more as the mad Celestials have greater feats.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
not on here he doesn't maybe on a half assed board he does. So cry more as the mad Celestials have greater feats.
A writer going up against some random fanboy?

I'll take the writer.

Originally posted by t0sh
A writer going up against some random fanboy?

I'll take the writer. a writer who can change his opinion whenever he wants lol. If you don't like the rules leave or just cry more.

Simple facts are the mad Celestials feats are greater than the ones Odin faced.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
a writer who can change his opinion whenever he wants lol. If you don't like the rules leave or just cry more.

Simple facts are the mad Celestials feats are greater than the ones Odin faced.
He's been asked the same question three times and has always stayed consistent.

Your subjective interpretation holds no authority against his.

Originally posted by t0sh
The writer holds precedence over you, making you wrong and me 100% right. Galan is correct. You're wrong per forum rules:

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format
No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

Comics released strictly online or on web sites will not be considered proof in the Comic Book Versus Forum.

An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc.

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

Originally posted by t0sh
A writer going up against some random fanboy?

I'll take the writer.

The reason why writers interviews are inadmissible is because they can be fake or the writer can simply change his mind on the matter.

Also your logic is wrong. Just because 9 Celestials beat Odin doesn't mean 4 couldn't. Plus Odin was amped beyond normal. Destroyer was empowered by multiple pantheons.

Lastly, it's about how things happened that determines power level. For example, Galactus easily destroying a Celestial is an incredible feat. Odin couldn't ever do something like that.

Originally posted by t0sh
A writer holds precedence over your subjective interpretation, which likely derive from a sense of bias.

Follow the rules, idiot.

Fourth Celestial Host ftw.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Fourth Celestial Host ftw.

Nope. RK Thor would tear them apart with ease. No contest.

RKT would tear his hands by fighting the Celestials?

Nope. He'd destroy them with ease, and when they attempted to harm him, none of their attacks would register.

Originally posted by Zack M
Follow the rules, idiot.
Do that again and I will flag you.

Forum rules are subject to subjectivity and personal bias. They are not principals and/or fact and are fallible. In the face of the writer who wrote the actual story, a fans personal beliefs are thereby debunked. Especially when that writer has stated the same thing three times.

The Celestials that Galactus fought were as powerful as the ones Odin fought, but Odin fared better.

As for the thread, Rune King Thor can teleport at will, they would have a much more difficult time inflicting any damage on him. In addition, he should be significantly more powerful than Odin. He should be capable of managing something against the Fourth Host.

Nope.

Originally posted by t0sh
Do that again and I will flag you.

Forum rules are subject to subjectivity and personal bias. They are not principals and/or fact and are fallible. In the face of the writer who wrote the actual story, a fans personal beliefs are thereby debunked. Especially when that writer has stated the same thing three times. The rules have already been pointed out to you multiple times now... By a Mod, no less. Your faux-intellectual interpretation of said rules is wrong.

Stop acting like a child. If you don't like the rules, then leave. You will not be missed.

Originally posted by Galan007
The rules have already been pointed out to you multiple times now... By a Mod, no less. Your faux-intellectual interpretation of said rules is wrong.

Stop acting like a child. If you don't like the rules, then leave. You will not be missed.
Rules do not dictate the original author's intention, neither does subjectivity. Only the original and completely self consistent ideologies of the original author, and nothing more.

You are wrong and nothing will change that.

Originally posted by t0sh
Rules do not dictate the original author's intention, neither does subjectivity. Only the original and completely self consistent ideologies of the original author, and nothing more.

You are wrong and nothing will change that. KMC rules have been noted. This isn't up for debate. Please abide by KMC rules or post on another board.

Bada is trolling u tosh.

Gonna have to do my rain dance and hope Lord Thor throws him another Matthew.

Originally posted by t0sh
Rules do not dictate the original author's intention, neither does subjectivity. Only the original and completely self consistent ideologies of the original author, and nothing more.

You are wrong and nothing will change that.

The reason why writers interviews are inadmissible is because they can be FAKE or the writer can simply change his mind on the matter.

Also your logic is wrong. Just because 9 Celestials beat Odin doesn't mean 4 couldn't. Plus Odin was amped beyond normal. Destroyer was empowered by multiple pantheons.

Lastly, it's about how things happened that determines power level. For example, Galactus easily destroying a Celestial is an incredible feat. Odin couldn't ever do something like that.

Originally posted by t0sh
It took the combined attack of 5 Celestials to overcome Odin, meanwhile it only took 3 Celestials to pwn Galactus.

Odin did better than Gactus.

Huh?
Galactus was beating four celestials at once. He was beaten after they FUSED

It didn't take 5 to beat odin,he couldn't even handle one

Galactus wasn't beating four Celestials at once.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Galactus wasn't beating four Celestials at once.
Exactly.

Originally posted by Genii96
Huh?
Galactus was beating four celestials at once. He was beaten after they FUSED

It didn't take 5 to beat odin,he couldn't even handle one
Celestials were directly stated to be a level above Galactus in power in those days.

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/celestialnote1.jpg

To this.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/shogunofharlem1/ThanosAnnual001-024_zps19e195fc.jpg

Celestials aren't worth shit these days.

I hate that Celestials have been neutered/downgraded in more recent times. Imo, the "next level of power" is how they *should* be portrayed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/shogunofharlem1/ThanosAnnual001-024_zps19e195fc.jpg

Celestials aren't worth shit these days. That picture is irrelevant cause Odin, Zeus and Vishnu still have night sweats (see: PISS) every year since the 3rd host came and showed them that Arishem alone can ban them from their dimensions on a whim. The 4th host gangbang w/o vaseline needs no further mentioning.

There is no way they are in the same bracket

Originally posted by psycho gundam
That picture is irrelevant cause Odin and Zeus still have night sweats (see: PISS) every year since the 3rd host came and showed them that Arishem alone can ban them from their dimensions on a whim. The 4th host gangbang w/o vaseline needs no further mentioning.

There is no way they are in the same bracket

Just look at the list of things that have hurt them in recent years. We've got Sue f'ing Storm, an axe, numerous weapons built by Reed including one powered by a single sun that trashed a voltron Celestial.

Arishem still had Odin on his stomach, and Celestials are 2000' tall.

http://lovebirdsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/15.jpg

Do the math

Originally posted by Cogito
Just look at the list of things that have hurt them in recent years. We've got Sue f'ing Storm, an axe, numerous weapons built by Reed including one powered by a single sun that trashed a voltron Celestial.


Um,just because they have weaknesses does not mean they are weak
They are specifically weak to hyperstorm energies hence sue storm
They are vulnerable to that enchantment
That gun worked on them because they bled cosmic energy,those same celestials tanked IGs and UNs

Rune King Thor Stomps

Celestial are not shit these days. Anyone who thinks so is just a prisoner of the moment. No one should ignore the entire history of characters and just cherry pick like abhi does in his pro DC agenda.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Arishem still had Odin on his stomach, and Celestials are 2000' tall.

http://lovebirdsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/15.jpg

Do the math Odin loves giant black cock?

Originally posted by Cogito
Just look at the list of things that have hurt them in recent years. We've got Sue f'ing Storm, an axe, numerous weapons built by Reed including one powered by a single sun that trashed a voltron Celestial. -Tbf, Sue's unique ability to harm/destroy Celestials was established back in F4 #400, when she destroyed Exitar. Hyperspace(where Sue's energy comes from) is akin to Celestial Kryptonite.

-Jarnbjorn really IS stupid as f*ck, but it does have a specialized Celestial-busting enchantment placed on it, at least. /shrug

-Sol's Anvil was also powered by Old Atlantis, The Negative Zone, The Blue Area of the Moon, and The Forever City -- it has been called "the most powerful weapon ever built by man." Not overly surprising that it de-fused Voltron, imo.

*The Universal Entropy Gun Reed pulled out of his closet that outright slagged a Mad Celestial was WAY worse of a showing for them.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Tbf, Sue's unique ability to harm/destroy Celestials was established back in F4 #400, when she destroyed Exitar. Hyperspace(where Sue's energy comes from) is akin to Celestial Kryptonite. I know. Stupid then, still stupid now.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Jarnbjorn really IS stupid as f*ck, but it does have a specialized Celestial-busting enchantment placed on it, at least. /shrug Meh, that it can do what the 2000 FT destroyer and Odin Sword couldn't is hella stupid.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Sol's Anvil was also powered by Old Atlantis, The Negative Zone, The Blue Area of the Moon, and The Forever City -- it has been called "the most powerful weapon ever built by man." Not overly surprising that it de-fused Voltron, imo.I guess I forgot the details - thought it was powered only by, you know, Sol.

Originally posted by Galan007
*The Universal Entropy Gun Reed pulled out of his closet that outright slagged a Mad Celestial was WAY worse of a showing for them.

Also Godkiller armor killing billions of Celestials.

Celestials fighting Watchers for millions of years and Exitar needing to amp himself up for thousands of years to kill a watcher.

A sliver of phoenix force which wasn't enough to stop the avengers driving off entire fourth host.

And Mr. Sinister controlling Tiamut.

And Exterminators killing celestials.

A single CCU enslaving entire celestial race.

Basically the only good showing in combat for Celestials is Thor 300. They are martian manhunter of cosmics. Lots of lip service and little to show in power.

The Watcher thing has some context to it, but yeah, there's no denying that Celestials have been drastically watered-down since their conception... Especially in more recent years. There are some highs sprinkled in there, but those are few and far between.

It's a shame.

but hey, at least they are still acknowledged as having created the multiverse and apparently a big bang....

ikr?

Talk about a phucking random origin story... none

Originally posted by Galan007
The Watcher thing has some context to it, but yeah, there's no denying that Celestials have been drastically watered-down since their conception... Especially in more recent years. There are some highs sprinkled in there, but those are few and far between.

It's a shame.
What context would that be?

Plot devices will always exist in comics so people shouldn't overreact. Only nerds really care about power levels so you're in the minority.

The context being that the Watcher who Exitar was sent to destroy first, wasn't just any Watcher -- he was 'The One'. Not that it makes it any better that Exitar had to amp for thousands of years before confronting the race... But at least he one-shotted The One, which means he could have dealt with the rest of the race with a far greater degree of ease. /shrug

That Watcher wasn't implied to be more powerful. He was just the storage of all the information of Watchers IIRC.

And he killed him because the watcher didn't fought back.

The One's very existence was a threat to the cosmic balance of power -- that's why Arishem judged against him in the first place.

Remember, The One was designed to survive the death of the universe in order to pass his knowledge on to the next reality. However, he began intentionally speeding-up the death of the universe so that he could fulfill his role sooner... Which is what ultimately forced the Celestials' hand. By all implications, The One was > the rest of the race, imo.

...But that's neither here nor there, and WAY off-topic.

I didn't get that. But Ok.

RK Thor laughs in their face. They don't have anything that would actually hurt him. This makes them less than zero to him, because he represents a greater force than they are, he essentially became the Avatar of the Almighty. If that entity/spirit, etc, took physical form in the physical universe. Not sure why people aren't able to see that RK Thor pierced the veil? Physical matters had no meaning to him. Physical universal effects no longer applied to him. It would be like shooting something that you could see, but that wasn't even really there, while being able to apply omniscient force equal to omnipotent might in the physical universe. They'd be wiped out quickly by an omniscient.

You're going WAY too far with RKT. Is he > Odin? Sure. That much was at least implied in the story.

Is he > Odin + The Odinsword + Destroyer + the souls of EVERY Asgardian + power from EVERY Pantheon? Certainly not. You'd have to apply a MASSIVE no-limits fallacy to reach that conclusion. srsly

Galan, you still don't get it. They would have no power over him whatsoever. None. He would wipe them out in an instant. All that you mentioned was so far beneath the power that he represents that this isn't really an argument worth going into. They would lose to an omniscient being of his stature. Omniscient means what to you? RK Thor's power, did not come from the physical universe. When that power came into the physical universe, it displayed omnipotent might due to having the ability of applying omniscient power which comes up to the exact same thing in the physical universe. Being extra-planar, meant that the very laws of the physical universe did not apply to him, thus only a law that existed in his plane of existence would ever apply to him. Virtually immune to anything that these guys could throw at him. I mean, what are they going to do, kill him? Death meant nothing to him, he was beyond them... This is why RK Thor shouldn't even be brought up in threads.

Frankly, that is absolutely ridiculous. I am certainly not going to entertain such a flagrant/illogical no-limits fallacy being applied to RKT.

Someone else might, though, so have fun with that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Frankly, that is absolutely ridiculous. I am certainly not going to entertain such a flagrant/illogical no-limits fallacy being applied to RKT.

Someone else might, though, so have fun with that.


You don't have to, but there it is all the same. Omniscient. Greater than the entire Celestial race.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're going WAY too far with RKT. Is he > Odin? Sure. That much was at least implied in the story.

Is he > Odin + The Odinsword + Destroyer + the souls of EVERY Asgardian + power from EVERY Pantheon? Certainly not. You'd have to apply a MASSIVE no-limits fallacy to reach that conclusion. srsly

Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.

Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.


Cheers.

Originally posted by LGU
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.

Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.


Cheers.

The entire premise was that he went beyond Odin.

I don't see how you could think otherwise.

Originally posted by LGU
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.

Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.


Cheers.

What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.

Originally posted by LGU
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.

Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.


Cheers. I believe the implication was that RKT had transcended Odin to *some* extent. But like you said: I do not believe the power differential between them was overly significant... And I am certainly not of the opinion that he had become this Supreme Being-esque hyper-God, as Stoic seems to believe.

Originally posted by Stoic
What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.

Originally posted by krisblaze
The entire premise was that he went beyond Odin.

I don't see how you could think otherwise.

It actually isn't, although I can understand why people read it that it's nowhere near that clear-cut.

I don't have time to spell it out at the moment as I have to log off in a second, but I went over this argument in a fair bit of detail here:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=6203.msg121505#msg121505

I've mellowed my position somewhat since then - I don't think that there is *no* evidence to suggest that he was more powerful than Odin, which is what I argue there. But I do think the evidence is ambiguous at best, and there is certainly no evidence of a massive power differential.

The TL;DR version:

- Thor sacrificed more than Odin, true. But it isn't true that Thor gained greater benefits because of his greater sacrifices. It's actually repeatedly stated that Thor had to sacrifice more to gain the same as Odin because a repeated (identical) sacrifice is meaningless.

- it is never, anywhere in the text, implied that Thor's ability to overcome TWSAIS was down to raw power. It is repeatedly and very explicitly explained to us that it was due to his humanity making him unpredictable, disguising his intentions from them until it was too late. In other words, the key variable wasn't Thor being more powerful than Odin, it was Thor's experiences on Earth living amongst mortals. Any power increase (if it did exist) was not relevant to Thor's "defeat" of TWSAIS.


Cheers.

Originally posted by Stoic
What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.

The story makes it pretty clear that Thor receives the exact same level of wisdom and knowledge that Odin had always possessed. The knowledge of the runes etc was not unique to Thor.

The story repeatedly tells us that the key variable between Odin and Thor's ability to confront TWSAIS was his humanity, making him impossible to predict.

It's also worth pointing out that putting Thor amongst mortals with this exact end-game in mind was *Odin's* plan all along; Thor was actually just a part of Odin's grand strategy to end the cycle.

Anyway, I have to go to bed now. In my experience this position is often extremely unpopular on battleboards, and judging by the massive overrating of RKT in this thread I expect that to be no different here. I'll happily continue to debate these points tomorrow, but I'm out for now.


Cheers.

Odin is less than nothing to RK Thor. Your entire argument became flawed when you left out the fact that Odin has never even approached omniscient status in his entire history. I think that you may not be understanding the true meaning of what omniscience means? Maybe I'm seeing it in a different definition than you are? Who knows. I saw no room for hyperbole when I read the story, but whatever. And that's really what it comes down to, you either follow what is written, or you do something else.

Originally posted by LGU
It actually isn't, although I can understand why people read it that it's nowhere near that clear-cut.

I don't have time to spell it out at the moment as I have to log off in a second, but I went over this argument in a fair bit of detail here:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=6203.msg121505#msg121505

I've mellowed my position somewhat since then - I don't think that there is *no* evidence to suggest that he was more powerful than Odin, which is what I argue there. But I do think the evidence is ambiguous at best, and there is certainly no evidence of a massive power differential.

The TL;DR version:

- Thor sacrificed more than Odin, true. But it isn't true that Thor gained greater benefits because of his greater sacrifices. It's actually repeatedly stated that Thor had to sacrifice more to gain the same as Odin because a repeated (identical) sacrifice is meaningless.

- it is never, anywhere in the text, implied that Thor's ability to overcome TWSAIS was down to raw power. It is repeatedly and very explicitly explained to us that it was due to his humanity making him unpredictable, disguising his intentions from them until it was too late. In other words, the key variable wasn't Thor being more powerful than Odin, it was Thor's experiences on Earth living amongst mortals. Any power increase (if it did exist) was not relevant to Thor's "defeat" of TWSAIS.


Cheers.

Our interpretations aren't mutually exclusive.

omniscient

adjective
1.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
noun
2.
an omniscient being.
3.
the Omniscient, God.

what are some examples that show this omniscience exactly....? the term omniscience is similar to the term 'infinite' in comics. neither really means what it should--or rather there are levels of each. odin is the all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing. iow--omniscient. being declared omniscient is pretty meaningless, so....proof of this omniscience?

The Fates + Those Who Sit Above > 4th Host

Heck, the TWSA alone actually gave Loki all nine universeS connected to the World Tree.

They gave it to him at the end of their cycle cause Loki tried tricking them,
but nonetheless,
it proves, in that story, they had the power to grant his wish.

Loki's wish? I want the nine universes of the World Tree.

^ You're acting as though RKT straight up overpowered TWSAIS and the Fates in some sort of cosmic battle. This is incorrect. Heck, Thor himself stated that he didn't have the power to defeat the Fates outright:
http://i.imgur.com/QiuIiQo.jpg
He only 'beat' both parties as a corollary of ending the cycle of Ragnarok.

Originally posted by leonidas
what are some examples that show this omniscience exactly....? the term omniscience is similar to the term 'infinite' in comics. neither really means what it should--or rather there are levels of each. odin is the all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing. iow--omniscient. being declared omniscient is pretty meaningless, so....proof of this omniscience?

And for the record: it was stated that RKT possessed "the wisdom of Odin":
http://i.imgur.com/DF8IX71.jpg

Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ You're acting as though RKT straight up overpowered TWSAIS and the Fates in some sort of cosmic battle. This is incorrect. Heck, Thor himself stated that he didn't have the power to defeat the Fates outright:
http://i.imgur.com/QiuIiQo.jpg
He only 'beat' both parties as a corollary of ending the cycle of Ragnarok.



And for the record: it was stated that RKT possessed "the wisdom of Odin":
http://i.imgur.com/DF8IX71.jpg

Take from that what you will.

To feed on that scan is faulty. The spirit had no idea of the depths of power that RK Thor possessed. That was just an educated guess.

Originally posted by leonidas
what are some examples that show this omniscience exactly....? the term omniscience is similar to the term 'infinite' in comics. neither really means what it should--or rather there are levels of each. odin is the all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing. iow--omniscient. being declared omniscient is pretty meaningless, so....proof of this omniscience?

There was no room for hyperbole in concerns to what it meant in this case. You're looking for huge displays of power to justify your ruling. He was written to be omniscient, there really is no getting around it.

^ You must not have read the scan, because Thor himself AGREED with Loki.

This is what I'm saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5TtsZpWQsc

I don't fully agree with this guys ideas as to exactly how strong Rune King Thor is. Galactus is not an infinite being. His judgment of power was way off. It wasn't just the power of the entire Odin Force that Thor had. You have to pay attention to the entire story.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ You're acting as though RKT straight up overpowered TWSAIS and the Fates in some sort of cosmic battle. This is incorrect. Heck, Thor himself stated that he didn't have the power to defeat the Fates outright:
http://i.imgur.com/QiuIiQo.jpg
He only 'beat' both parties as a corollary of ending the cycle of Ragnarok.



And for the record: it was stated that RKT possessed "the wisdom of Odin":
http://i.imgur.com/DF8IX71.jpg

Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ You're acting as though RKT straight up overpowered TWSAIS and the Fates in some sort of cosmic battle. This is incorrect. Heck, Thor himself stated that he didn't have the power to defeat the Fates outright:
http://i.imgur.com/QiuIiQo.jpg
He only 'beat' both parties as a corollary of ending the cycle of Ragnarok.



And for the record: it was stated that RKT possessed "the wisdom of Odin":
http://i.imgur.com/DF8IX71.jpg

Take from that what you will.

Cool awesome... But didnt RKT destroy the Loom of Fate later on and hence bested the Fates etc ?

Originally posted by Stoic
Galactus is not an infinite being.
A fed Galactus is the most powerful non abstract being in Marvel. I could list feats if you want.

The Celestial Host would destroy Rune Thor. Any one member of the Celestials would win, really.

Originally posted by Galan007
^
You're acting as though RKT straight up overpowered TWSAIS
and the Fates in some sort of cosmic battle. This is incorrect.

Heck, Thor himself stated that he didn't have the power to defeat the Fates outright:
http://i.imgur.com/QiuIiQo.jpg


Thor is referring to not being able to change what had been woven.
This has nothing to do with power levels friend concerning the Fates vs Thor.

Thor DID defeat them outright. He destroyed their purpose, their power source, right in their face.
Thor even jobbed before acting, and still, the Fates, that are far superior than Odin, were helpless.

TWSAIS appeared,
and instead of acting against Thor, who was about to make them obsolete likewise,
did nothing but cower. Helpless.

These are the same entities that with a thought, served up nine universeS for Loki on a platter.

LOL at this thread. One Celestial treats RKT like he's nothing.
The entire host would be overkill.

Originally posted by Stoic
omniscient

adjective
1.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
noun
2.
an omniscient being.
3.
the Omniscient, God.
He isn't omniscient though.

Abhi is jealous over Thor. Always has been. Always going to be but he already abandoned Superman for Norrin Radd.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He isn't omniscient though.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Thor is referring to not being able to change what had been woven.
This has nothing to do with power levels friend concerning the Fates vs Thor.

Thor DID defeat them outright. He destroyed their purpose, their power source, right in their face.
Thor even jobbed before acting, and still, the Fates, that are far superior than Odin, were helpless.

TWSAIS appeared,
and instead of acting against Thor, who was about to make them obsolete likewise,
did nothing but cower. Helpless.

These are the same entities that with a thought, served up nine universeS for Loki on a platter. You're getting your wires crossed concerning what actually happened, but w/e.

This debate is futile, me thinks. It's pretty clear that nobody's opinion is changing.

Originally posted by Stoic
Odin is less than nothing to RK Thor. Your entire argument became flawed when you left out the fact that Odin has never even approached omniscient status in his entire history. I think that you may not be understanding the true meaning of what omniscience means? Maybe I'm seeing it in a different definition than you are? Who knows. I saw no room for hyperbole when I read the story, but whatever. And that's really what it comes down to, you either follow what is written, or you do something else.

Odin has been repeatedly called "omnipotent", as have many other beings (e.g. Galactus) who clearly aren't literally omnipotent. In fact, one of the Marvel Handbooks actually provides an alternative definition for the word which is basically "omnipotent but not really":
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/use-of-the-word-omnipotence-in-comics-explained-1634966/

You're taking it waaaaay too literally.

At any rate, even if RKT *was* omniscient... that would mean that Odin was too. Thor explicitly received the same knowledge as Odin, from the same source. The story tells us again and again that the only significant difference between what Odin knew and what Thor knew were derived from the latter's experiences amongst mortal men.


Cheers.

Sorry to change to subject here: didnt RKT best the loom of fate later on etc? What tier were the Loom of fates and the ones who sit above in the shadows?

Originally posted by Stoic
There was no room for hyperbole in concerns to what it meant in this case. You're looking for huge displays of power to justify your ruling. He was written to be omniscient, there really is no getting around it.

that is...crazy talk. the whole purpose of the arc is for thor to meet his true destiny, which, apparently, was to discover that he needed to break the cycle of ragnarok and thus stop feeding those above. did his knowledge surpass odin's? yes. i think that was made clear because his sacrifice was greater than odin's was. but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that his wisdom made him any more omniscient than galactus's knowledge made doom in sw. the only thing he used his wisdom for was to see through the cycle. i guess he found a way around the fates as well, but that is completely unquantifiable and really, doesn't even come across as all that impressive seeing as how all he did was break one strong:

http://imgur.com/a/ZmKWL

http://imgur.com/a/Ly59i

ironically, it wasn't HIS wisdom that led to his being able to win, it was odin's. and it wasn't the runes that allowed him to achieve what he did--it was his knowledge COUPLED with his humanity that let him break the cycle:

http://imgur.com/a/udmrq

and with the cycle ended his 'omniscience' also seem to end though his power didn't diminish at all. he couldn't see beyond eternity, the end he created, and longed for a guide to help him:

http://imgur.com/a/7qdut

that is a clear limit to his 'omniscience' and it was obvious at the end. as for this bit:

Originally posted by Stoic
RK Thor laughs in their face. They don't have anything that would actually hurt him. This makes them less than zero to him, because he represents a greater force than they are, he essentially became the Avatar of the Almighty. If that entity/spirit, etc, took physical form in the physical universe. Not sure why people aren't able to see that RK Thor pierced the veil? Physical matters had no meaning to him. Physical universal effects no longer applied to him. It would be like shooting something that you could see, but that wasn't even really there, while being able to apply omniscient force equal to omnipotent might in the physical universe. They'd be wiped out quickly by an omniscient.

i mean, did someone hack your account man?

omnipotent? beyond any physical force? wtf? he couldn't change fate. CLEARLY he isn't omnipotent. he couldn't snap his fingers and end the cycle but needed to find a weak point in the loom. CLEARLY not omnipotent. as far as being beyond physical force: where is there even a tiny sliver of proof to suggest that? he killed a weak mangog and the biggest thing he did was stop loki who had a weaker hammer than mjolnir. and from THAT you extrapolate that he is omniscient and omnipotent, an avatar to toaa.....? it wasn't even his power that allowed him to hide his intentions from those above--it was his HUMAN side.

i think that might be the grossest no limits i've ever seen on the forum. i honestly cannot believe you're trying to sell all of that. you sound a little like a crazy man....

Originally posted by ozz81
Sorry to change to subject here: didnt RKT best the loom of fate later on etc? What tier were the Loom of fates and the ones who sit above in the shadows?

thor found a weak point in the loom. by breaking a single string he was able to stop the cycle that the loom kept track of from repeating. you can't really assign a 'level' to the loom, or the fates. they have a job and no one is supposed to be able to interfere in it. he didn't really 'best them' as much as he stepped around them....

those above were like vampires, feeding on the norse gods. we know they were above the gods of asgard, but how far is completely impossible to say. they claimed omnipotence as well, but clearly that was hyperbole. the true extent of their power could be hyperbole too.

Originally posted by Kryptoniano
LOL at this thread. One Celestial treats RKT like he's nothing.
The entire host would be overkill.

word, man, this thread gave me a headache too. Since when were earthly pantheon gods above Celestials? no matter the incarnation. CW Herc was a different case so i can see that being the exception.