Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All of Hulk fts are usable here. No bfr...who wins.

Hulk stomps with ease.

Time to nut up, Kris

Nut up or shut up.

😐

Sigh...I seen you online Kris and now you're offline. Anyways, let's break this down. Nova is going to either have to telepathically assault Hulk or try to physically curb him. Neither will work. Hulk mind is immune to telepathic assaults the more pissed off he is.

https://postimg.org/image/q1kffr6th/

And this blast did exactly what Xavier said...it knocked everyone out. Emma with assistance tried the same thing and failed. Telepathy was nothing to a pissed off WWH. Let's move on. Cassandra did overpower Gladiator but Gladiator is no Hulk and he sure as he'll isn't World War Hulk. Hulk took hits from beings that were amped and increase in strength pass his Savage Hulk levels. Hell, he outright killed a being without even touching him that was amped 17 times over Hercules power. And yes, Cassandra does have a psychic energy form but let's not pretend like Hulk hasn't grabbed or manipulated energy before.

I have a feeling Darksaint is going to reply. I'm waiting.

https://postimg.org/image/q1kffr6th/

carver, you still have time to edit. Use this link please. It won't stretch the page.

Let's BZ it

Thanks buddy

Originally posted by krisblaze
Let's BZ it

Reply to my post or concede.

What do you mean?

Obviously I think Nova wins, otherwise I wouldn't challenge you to the BZ.

Originally posted by carver9
I have a feeling Darksaint is going to reply. I'm waiting.

Ohoh, no, I'm staying out of this. Kris challenged you to a BZ, and I am not crossing my sword with him.

Its a BZ challenge between him and you. If you want to alter any part of his BZ challenge, that's on you. I don't need to step in.

Originally posted by krisblaze
What do you mean?

Obviously I think Nova wins, otherwise I wouldn't challenge you to the BZ.

Then post your reasoning here. I'm not doing a BZ unless it's something thats entertaining to me and something like this isn't entertaining at all. So are you going to concede and not respond to my post or are you going to reply. Either is OK with me. If you're conceding then let Darksaint take your place.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ohoh, no, I'm staying out of this. Kris challenged you to a BZ, and I am not crossing my sword with him.

Its a BZ challenge between him and you. If you want to alter any part of his BZ challenge, that's on you. I don't need to step in.

Everyone on KMC knows how I feel about BZ. I made this "thread" because I want to discuss this topic.

I challenged you to a BZ roughly 2 years ago.

You started ranting and said that you would stop replying to my posts.

Some time later you started responding, and now you responded to this comment I made in the other thread;

Originally posted by krisblaze
Carter turned down my Cassandra Nova vs WBH challenge.

If you want to do the BZ then say so. I'll gladly do it.

I haven't conceded anything, I simply re-issued my challenge and stand by it. WBH vs Cassandra Nova.

Incidentally, the original stipulation was that the loser would leave the board forever.

I have a feeling KMC means more to you than me at the moment, so I understand if that seems unreasonable. We should definitely have some kind of reward/punishment though.

👍 post Carver. Kris im ashamed of you.

Originally posted by carver9
If you're conceding then let Darksaint take your place.

The thirst is real, now I know how Sin feels.

I can step in, but I guess this is why Kris wants a BZ, less interference from outsiders

Plus, it stops threads becoming 10000pages long, or it getting locked due to trolling.

On the other hand, it will be hard getting judges, as you, carver, may well feel that you are unable to get impartial judges, or, at least, judges that will agree with you. At least with a thread, you can always waltz off and claim victory.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Incidentally, the original stipulation was that the loser would leave the board forever.

I have a feeling KMC means more to you than me at the moment, so I understand if that seems unreasonable. We should definitely have some kind of reward/punishment though.

I have the PERFECT stipulation.

No matter who wins the Battlezone the SCALED, WRETCH, that is Badabing is banned FOREVER!!!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The thirst is real, now I know how Sin feels.

I can step in, but I guess this is why Kris wants a BZ, less interference from outsiders

Plus, it stops threads becoming 10000pages long, or it getting locked due to trolling.

On the other hand, it will be hard getting judges, as you, carver, may well feel that you are unable to get impartial judges, or, at least, judges that will agree with you. At least with a thread, you can always waltz off and claim victory.

I loled.

You're right though. This thread would be spammed. Itd be nigh impossible to declare a winner. A bz would be more efficient. But s challenge is a challenge. Kris called him out and the Carter answered. Blaze cant backtrack now. Carver scores a moral victory imo

carver popping shit off?


oooohhh let me grab my popcorn

this gon be good.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The thirst is real, now I know how Sin feels.

I can step in, but I guess this is why Kris wants a BZ, less interference from outsiders

Plus, it stops threads becoming 10000pages long, or it getting locked due to trolling.

On the other hand, it will be hard getting judges, as you, carver, may well feel that you are unable to get impartial judges, or, at least, judges that will agree with you. At least with a thread, you can always waltz off and claim victory.

I wouldn't mind judging if a BZ happens.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I challenged you to a BZ roughly 2 years ago.

You started ranting and said that you would stop replying to my posts.

Some time later you started responding, and now you responded to this comment I made in the other thread;



If you want to do the BZ then say so. I'll gladly do it.

I haven't conceded anything, I simply re-issued my challenge and stand by it. WBH vs Cassandra Nova.

I don't remember any of this. I made the thread...you don't have to post if you don't want too as I'm satisfied with the results. Anyone else want to step into Kris shoes and take his place on this topic? I think it would be an interesting (naah) battle.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I loled.

You're right though. This thread would be spammed. Itd be nigh impossible to declare a winner. A bz would be more efficient. But s challenge is a challenge. Kris called him out and the Carter answered. Blaze cant backtrack now. Carver scores a moral victory imo

What moral victory?

I asked him for the trillionth time to do a BZ.

He said "no, debate in a regular thread or concede" and that is a moral victory?

Originally posted by carver9
I don't remember any of this. I made the thread...you don't have to post if you don't want too as I'm satisfied with the results. Anyone else want to step into Kris shoes and take his place on this topic? I think it would be an interesting (naah) battle.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-607521-most-powerful-overall-on-marvel-earth.html

Here's the original thread.

If it is WBH, why are all Hulk feats being used?

Strongest Hulk of all, I agree. WBH > WWH > Indestructible, whatever.

What if WBH or WWH have lower showings than Savage, though? Do we automatically hand wave it away whn it suits us?

Just as an example (not for one second saying this is true), IF Thor manages to directly overpower WWH in a direct lifting contest, but Savage managed to overpower Thor...what then?

Originally posted by krisblaze
What moral victory?

I asked him for the trillionth time to do a BZ.

He said "no, debate in a regular thread or concede" and that is a moral victory?

Im aware of your previous challenges. Carver tucked tail. Im referring to your latest challenge which iirc didnt say anything about a bz. Which carver answered. Thus if u dont respond is concession at this point. Imo


Sn Scot would be a good judge of a bz

Didn't Cassandra mindrape Xavier amped by Cerebro? I'm going with her here. She's attacking something he can't amp : his mind.

^Yes, it's absurd.

She could easily mindrape Xavier times 11, was taking apart Wolverine's adamantium, could phase, super healing, mind-swap...


Originally posted by Sin I AM
Im aware of your previous challenges. Carver tucked tail. Im referring to your latest challenge which iirc didnt say anything about a bz. Which carver answered. Thus if u dont respond is concession at this point. Imo


Sn Scot would be a good judge of a bz

Aah, now I understand.

This thread was made in response to me mentioning said challenge in a separate thread about Hulk never being used in Tourneys or Battlezones.

Carter making this thread just sort of reinforces that argument....that certain Hulk fans never take their discussions to the Battlezone.

Lmao carvers drunk bravado posting again

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-607521-most-powerful-overall-on-marvel-earth.html

Here's the original thread.

If it is WBH, why are all Hulk feats being used?

Strongest Hulk of all, I agree. WBH > WWH > Indestructible, whatever.

What if WBH or WWH have lower showings than Savage, though? Do we automatically hand wave it away whn it suits us?

Just as an example (not for one second saying this is true), IF Thor manages to directly overpower WWH in a direct lifting contest, but Savage managed to overpower Thor...what then?

Consistency. We would base his showings mainly off of consistency since this is a single character we are talking about. You all are the ones that break a character history up into sections (example, OWAW Superman), I'm not the one that does that. Hulk power is to amp, why exclude his showings because he was more angrier than he was yesterday when everything he has done was within his power/ability to do without any outside amps.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Lmao carvers drunk bravado posting again

You're boring.

Originally posted by krisblaze
^Yes, it's absurd.

She could easily mindrape Xavier times 11, was taking apart Wolverine's adamantium, could phase, super healing, mind-swap...




Aah, now I understand.

This thread was made in response to me mentioning said challenge in a separate thread about Hulk never being used in Tourneys or Battlezones.

Carter making this thread just sort of reinforces that argument....that certain Hulk fans never take their discussions to the Battlezone.

So are you going to debate in here or what?

Originally posted by carver9
Consistency. We would base his showings mainly off of consistency since this is a single character we are talking about. You all are the ones that break a character history up into sections (example, OWAW Superman), I'm not the one that does that. Hulk power is to amp, why exclude his showings because he was more angrier than he was yesterday when everything he has done was within his power/ability to do without any outside amps.

Exactly, why exclude his showings?

So based on my example, what would you say? Would something work on WBH, if it worked on WWH but your only proof was using Gray Hulk?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly, why exclude his showings?

So based on my example, what would you say? Would something work on WBH, if it worked on WWH but your only proof was using Gray Hulk?

It depends on what you present. Example, we know that Hulk resistance to telepathy, resistance to physical attacks, healing, strength and his speed increase the more pissed he is. If you show me Grey Hulk getting stabbed by a butter knife, that's all I have to do is show you a Hulk much more angrier tanking something more powerful. This isn't a separate character we are discussing here, it's one entity.

Originally posted by krisblaze
^Yes, it's absurd.

She could easily mindrape Xavier times 11, was taking apart Wolverine's adamantium, could phase, super healing, mind-swap...




Aah, now I understand.

This thread was made in response to me mentioning said challenge in a separate thread about Hulk never being used in Tourneys or Battlezones.

Carter making this thread just sort of reinforces that argument....that certain Hulk fans never take their discussions to the Battlezone.

Exactly. Im not siding here. Im just saying

Originally posted by carver9
It depends on what you present. Example, we know that Hulk resistance to telepathy, resistance to physical attacks, healing, strength and his speed increase the more pissed he is. If you show me Grey Hulk getting stabbed by a butter knife, that's all I have to do is show you a Hulk much more angrier tanking something more powerful. This isn't a separate character we are discussing here, it's one entity.

You've been here for how long? Each hulks incarnation is different. Grey Hulk amps at a different rate than Merged Hulk. You can't lump everything like that.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Exactly. Im not siding here. Im just saying



You've been here for how long? Each hulks incarnation is different. Grey Hulk amps at a different rate than Merged Hulk. You can't lump everything like that.

Grey Hulk is Hulk at his weakest. Professor Hulk is Hulk with an intellect and doesn't amp as fast. Savage Hulk is a raged Hulk that can amp faster than most due to him not being as intelligent...I'm not naming all of Hulks brain programming. At the end of the day, it's Hulk who has the same power set. It's one character who abilities are to amp when pissed.

Originally posted by carver9
Grey Hulk is Hulk at his weakest. Professor Hulk is Hulk with an intellect and doesn't amp as fast. Savage Hulk is a raged Hulk that can amp faster than most due to him not being as intelligent...I'm not naming all of Hulks brain programming. At the end of the day, it's Hulk who has the same power set. It's one character who abilities are to amp when pissed.

Dont listen to him Carver.

They jealous.

Jello Heaters.

Drop Hulk Knowledge on them.

Originally posted by carver9
You're boring. and you're a drunk idiot who backs down from his own challenges.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
and you're a drunk idiot who backs down from his own challenges.

'Yawning while patting my lips'. Find someone else to try this strong man attitude against.

Originally posted by carver9
Grey Hulk is Hulk at his weakest. Professor Hulk is Hulk with an intellect and doesn't amp as fast. Savage Hulk is a raged Hulk that can amp faster than most due to him not being as intelligent...I'm not naming all of Hulks brain programming. At the end of the day, it's Hulk who has the same power set. It's one character who abilities are to amp when pissed.

They are not one and the same. But agree to disagree

Originally posted by carver9
'Yawning while patting my lips'. Find someone else to try this strong man attitude against. there is nothing strong man about it. It's simple facts, you're posting drunk again like a loser issuing challenges that you then constantly back down from whilst acting all high and mighty.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
They are not one and the same. But agree to disagree

Originally posted by Insane Titan
there is nothing strong man about it. It's simple facts, you're posting drunk again like a loser issuing challenges that you then constantly back down from whilst acting all high and mighty.

How do you want me to respond to this? You want me to go back and forth with you, huh? Or are you doing this for attention? I'm trying to help you here. Tell me what reaction you want me to give you so that you can move on.

KMC banning is too much. I propose an alternative: If Carver loses, he must vote for Superman in any thread he pops up in, no exceptions.

And if Kris wins, Carver had to vote for Supernan in any thread he pops up in.

Fair enough?

Originally posted by cdtm
KMC banning is too much. I propose an alternative: If Carver loses, he must vote for Superman in any thread he pops up in, no exceptions.

And if Kris wins, Carver had to vote for Supernan in any thread he pops up in.

Fair enough?


King Solomon himself couldn't have come up with a fairer solution!

Carver. you are being insulted by a DRUNKEN, WENCH, an IRATE, IMBECILE and The Tyrant, Lover, ZopZop.

Will you accept this OUTRAGE, GAMMITE?!!!!

WTF even was this thread?

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk stomps with ease.


Did you just make a thread and then respond to your own inquiry? 😂😂😂 Don't ever change Carver!

Originally posted by carver9
It depends on what you present. Example, we know that Hulk resistance to telepathy, resistance to physical attacks, healing, strength and his speed increase the more pissed he is. If you show me Grey Hulk getting stabbed by a butter knife, that's all I have to do is show you a Hulk much more angrier tanking something more powerful. This isn't a separate character we are discussing here, it's one entity.

Not my question, lol.

If I show something working against an angrier Hulk, and your defence is it NOT working against a less angry Hulk, what would you do?

@dmills: There is history here. 2 years ago, Kris made a list of the most powerful Marvel characters, and didn't put Hulk in. This triggered carver, and so Kris challenged him to a BZ, WBH against either Legion, Cassie, or Shaman Nate.

Carver has thus created a thread, taken BFR off, and is using all Hulk showings, and is calling Kris out.

Ahhh ok. Makes sense.

Carver, also said, Richard Rider, should die a VICOUS death at the hands of Banner!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not my question, lol.

If I show something working against an angrier Hulk, and your defence is it NOT working against a less angry Hulk, what would you do?

@dmills: There is history here. 2 years ago, Kris made a list of the most powerful Marvel characters, and didn't put Hulk in. This triggered carver, and so Kris challenged him to a BZ, WBH against either Legion, Cassie, or Shaman Nate.

Carver has thus created a thread, taken BFR off, and is using all Hulk showings, and is calling Kris out.


legion would wreck hulk

Woops, the challenge was Shaman, X-man, or Cassie.

Originally posted by carver9
How do you want me to respond to this? You want me to go back and forth with you, huh? Or are you doing this for attention? I'm trying to help you here. Tell me what reaction you want me to give you so that you can move on. haha, like I said trying to be all high and mighty.

I just love pointing out how full of shit you are all the time, yet think you're untouchable.

Insane, hold peace. Carver will just play the victim - don't rise to it.

Let's have a good clean match, folks!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Insane, hold peace. Carver will just play the victim - don't rise to it.

Let's have a good clean match, folks! lol I know. It's amazing seeing as we are both on his ignore list he loves to tell ppl about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not my question, lol.

If I show something working against an angrier Hulk, and your defence is it NOT working against a less angry Hulk, what would you do?

@dmills: There is history here. 2 years ago, Kris made a list of the most powerful Marvel characters, and didn't put Hulk in. This triggered carver, and so Kris challenged him to a BZ, WBH against either Legion, Cassie, or Shaman Nate.

Carver has thus created a thread, taken BFR off, and is using all Hulk showings, and is calling Kris out.

This is an old post from Bada...I hope this helps...

quote:
Originally posted by Badabing
Holy cripes, are some of you that dense? Pr and I went through this issue several times. It's not that complex.

HP DD >>> DOS DD. Therefore you can use DOS DD feats to support HP DD.

WBH >>> WWH. Therefore you can use WWH feats to support WBH.

How can anybody think it's okay to use feats from a stronger version of a character?

The thread says WBH vs Barry Allen. Stop the nonsense.

After all, WWH/WBH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Hulk/Prof Hulk/Grey Hulk

I hope this helps. You can show me things working against Hulk but the point of debating is to counter that with other showings. It's like me posting a scan of Superman struggling to lift a plane and using it as a consistent. It doesn't work like that. You can post any scan you want, all I have to do is counter it with another scan. Play on his lows Dark, I will cling to Hulk averages, etc... that still doesn't change the fact that Hulk is Hulk.

Originally posted by dmills
Did you just make a thread and then respond to your own inquiry? 😂😂😂 Don't ever change Carver!

WTF...WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? I am in shock to see this guy. Good to have you back.

Lol, we've been talking often about you, dmills. Welcome back.

Originally posted by carver9
This is an old post from Bada...I hope this helps...

quote:
Originally posted by Badabing
Holy cripes, are some of you that dense? Pr and I went through this issue several times. It's not that complex.

HP DD >>> DOS DD. Therefore you can use DOS DD feats to support HP DD.

WBH >>> WWH. Therefore you can use WWH feats to support WBH.

How can anybody think it's okay to use feats from a stronger version of a character?

The thread says WBH vs Barry Allen. Stop the nonsense.

After all, WWH/WBH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Hulk/Prof Hulk/Grey Hulk

I hope this helps. You can show me things working against Hulk but the point of debating is to counter that with other showings. It's like me posting a scan of Superman struggling to lift a plane and using it as a consistent. It doesn't work like that. You can post any scan you want, all I have to do is counter it with another scan. Play on his lows Dark, I will cling to Hulk averages, etc... that still doesn't change the fact that Hulk is Hulk.

Excellent, thanks for that post.

If I post something working against WWH, and it has a 100% success rate (don't forget, WWH/WBH have very few showings), that would then be WWH/WBH's average.

Thus, as WWH/WBH >>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Hulk etc (as you kindly posted), no amount of Savage Hulk/Gray Hulk etc scans would be needed, correct?

Because like you said - we take the averages, and WWH/WBH are vastly superior to any other Hulk. So if something works against WWH, and has never failed against WWH in all of his showings (lol), Savage Hulk feats are useless.

Trap card, activated.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Excellent, thanks for that post.

If I post something working against WWH, and it has a 100% success rate (don't forget, WWH/WBH have very few showings), that would then be WWH/WBH's average.

Thus, as WWH/WBH >>>>>>>>>>>>>Savage Hulk etc (as you kindly posted), no amount of Savage Hulk/Gray Hulk etc scans would be needed, correct?

Because like you said - we take the averages, and WWH/WBH are vastly superior to any other Hulk. So if something works against WWH, and has never failed against WWH in all of his showings (lol), Savage Hulk feats are useless.

Trap card, activated.

What I'm telling you is all of Hulk fts are applicable. No exemptions here since it is one of the same character. Example, telepathy worked on Superman before but he has showings where he is highly immune to it. I'm not going to take that away from him because one writer think otherwise. Writers have different perspective of the characters but we don't take what that character has accomplished because of this...especially when we know this form is more powerful. I wouldn't say magic would affect Sun Dipped Superman the same way it would affect normal Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
What I'm telling you is all of Hulk fts are applicable. No exemptions here since it is one of the same character. Example, telepathy worked on Superman before but he has showings where he is highly immune to it. I'm not going to take that away from him because one writer think otherwise. Writers have different perspective of the characters but we don't take what that character has accomplished because of this...especially when we know this form is more powerful. I wouldn't say magic would affect Sun Dipped Superman the same way it would affect normal Superman.

But you have posted a mod ruling saying that WWH>>>>>>>Savage. (which, I think we can all agree on).

If it works every time on WWH, then there's no point posting Savage feats. Because WWH's AVERAGE shows that it works on him, and he is >>>>>> Savage.

For example, if say Spiderman managed to web WWH up and immobilise him (not saying it's true, but just as an example), then WWH is >>> Savage, so any feats of Savage breaking out are null and void. This is less true for physical attacks, obv, but I am thinking exotic here (always am!)

Especially if it was an exotic attack that worked 100% of the time against WBH/WWH.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you have posted a mod ruling saying that WWH>>>>>>>Savage. (which, I think we can all agree on).

If it works every time on WWH, then there's no point posting Savage feats. Because WWH's AVERAGE shows that it works on him, and he is >>>>>> Savage.

For example, if say Spiderman managed to web WWH up and immobilise him (not saying it's true, but just as an example), then WWH is >>> Savage, so any feats of Savage breaking out are null and void. This is less true for physical attacks, obv, but I am thinking exotic here (always am!)

Especially if it was an exotic attack that worked 100% of the time against WBH/WWH.

What has worked on WWH that didn't work on Savage? I think you want to say something worked on WBH but didn't work on Indestructible Hulk. Is that what you are wanting to say? Just say it Dark.

Originally posted by carver9
What has worked on WWH that didn't work on Savage? I think you want to say something worked on WBH but didn't work on Indestructible Hulk. Is that what you are wanting to say? Just say it Dark.

Oh the timestop?

Nahh.

Unless....can Cassandra Nova timestop? Has DS inadvertently found something that no one else has? Egads!

But it's not that.

I'm just asking, because you obviously know Hulk way better than I. I (or anyone else) don't want to post something, only for you to use an illogical leap of logic to argue against it.

WBH > WWH >>>>>>>>Savage, etc. As you yourself have posted, the more pissed Hulk is, the more powerful/resistant/stronger he is - and until WBH happened, WWH was THE angriest he had ever been.

If you flip-flop, and engage in mental gymnastics just to prove your point, then nobody will want a part of this discussion. But if you use a weaker Hulk to argue against a stronger Hulk's feats, than we cannot continue. Because that isn't using logic at all, and just devolves into a shouting match.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh the timestop?

Nahh.

Unless....can Cassandra Nova timestop? Has DS inadvertently found something that no one else has? Egads!

But it's not that.

I'm just asking, because you obviously know Hulk way better than I. I (or anyone else) don't want to post something, only for you to use an illogical leap of logic to argue against it.

WBH > WWH >>>>>>>>Savage, etc. As you yourself have posted, the more pissed Hulk is, the more powerful/resistant/stronger he is - and until WBH happened, WWH was THE angriest he had ever been.

If you flip-flop, and engage in mental gymnastics just to prove your point, then nobody will want a part of this discussion. But if you use a weaker Hulk to argue against a stronger Hulk's feats, than we cannot continue. Because that isn't using logic at all, and just devolves into a shouting match.

If I use a weaker Hulk resisting something, like, let's say, resisting antimatter... are you saying that I can't use that showing for a more powerful Hulk? If not, please give an example.

Originally posted by carver9
If I use a weaker Hulk resisting something, like, let's say, resisting antimatter... are you saying that I can't use that showing for a more powerful Hulk? If not, please give an example.

No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.

Don't change the topic, junior member.

We were celebrating dmills' return.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.


Aaahhhhh, that makes sense.

So let's do the BZ.

Originally posted by krisblaze
So let's do the BZ.

Or you can debate in the thread I made. It's simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no no, you misunderstand.

If I show WWH dying against antimatter - then you can't use Gray Hulk tanking antimatter as proof that WBH will tank it.

Because WWH >>>>>>>Gray. As we all agree.

I'd actually have to disagree with that one DS. If it's repeatedly made clear that a character is more powerful than ever and then has a poorer performance against something that he's done well against in the past, to me that screams low showing/PIS. By the same token, Supes ramming strait through Soulfire Darkseid's body doesn't negate all the times Supes COULDN'T do that kind of thing and lower the bar on Soulfire DS's perceived durability. If Grey Hulk's done well against anti-matter and WWH/WBH is more powerful than obviously WWH/WBH SHOULD do better even better and any lower showing should be recognized as either the Plot in play or a writer/editor who didn't do their homework.

Just my two cents...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'd actually have to disagree with that one DS. If it's repeatedly made clear that a character is more powerful than ever and then has a poorer performance against something that he's done well against in the past, to me that screams low showing/PIS. By the same token, Supes ramming strait through Soulfire Darkseid's body doesn't negate all the times Supes COULDN'T do that kind of thing and lower the bar on Soulfire DS's perceived durability. If Grey Hulk's done well against anti-matter and WWH/WBH is more powerful than obviously WWH/WBH SHOULD do better even better and any lower showing should be recognized as either the Plot in play or a writer/editor who didn't do their homework.

Just my two cents...

Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage.

This is why it is simpler to keep things to what is named. If facing WBH, keep it to WBH. He should be well placed with his feats. If facing WWH, keep it to WWH.

Otherwise, you get this clustermess lol.

Do you rely on statements, or feats? Even Gray Hulk has the 'feat' of smashing an asteroid 2x the size of Earth, with his fists alone, in a single panel - no energy waves, no chain reaction, just Hulk smash. Is he 2x as strong as the Worldbreaker? As WWH?

But, statement! WWH is the angriest he has ever been! Etc etc.

Was waiting for you to show up, btw. Knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

Originally posted by carver9
Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

But Pak is the same writer for both WWH AND WBH - so does that not make him gospel?

Are you saying that the Hulk as written by Pak is...special? That in Pak's mind and interpretation, he would be susceptible to this exotic attack (in our example, antimatter)?

Because if so, then by using WBH, you are using a Hulk that, on panel, IS susceptible, and you cannot hand wave it away.

Edit: Btw, this mess comes around because of your (and others, not just you) insistence that 'Hulk is Hulk'.

But he is obv NOT. Hence, the varying power levels.

Originally posted by carver9
Or we can lean on writers vs plot. What you named is something that happens to ALL characters, not just Hulk. You might as well categorize every story if you're taking this route because at one point we have Superman benching Earth and at another he is straining to lift a boat.

Stop using Superman as a HUMAN SHIELD!!!!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!!!

Essentially, you, carver, have attempted to dodge and evade Kris.

The challenge was WBH vs Cassie in a BZ. The point was to show that being the strongest there is, isn't the be-all and end-all.

You've now changed it, to a thread with BFR off, and it is now the Hulk in his entire history vs Cassie Nova - where every loss is chalked down to PIS, because you have a scan older than my grandma from back in the 60s, a writer said XYZ, and we all know that 'Hulk has had several upgrades since then'. If you don't want to face him in a BZ, then just say. Stop changing things just to suit you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage.

This is why it is simpler to keep things to what is named. If facing WBH, keep it to WBH. He should be well placed with his feats. If facing WWH, keep it to WWH.

Otherwise, you get this clustermess lol.

Do you rely on statements, or feats? Even Gray Hulk has the 'feat' of smashing an asteroid 2x the size of Earth, with his fists alone, in a single panel - no energy waves, no chain reaction, just Hulk smash. Is he 2x as strong as the Worldbreaker? As WWH?

But, statement! WWH is the angriest he has ever been! Etc etc.

Was waiting for you to show up, btw. Knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

No prob. As always I'm only popping in for a bit but I'm happy to at least throw my stance on the matter into the mix.

While I understand why it seems easier to simply restrict WWH/WBH solely to what was shown in those arcs, IMO doing so would unfair to the character. Hulk has a LONG history and an incredibly impressive list of feats to his credit, you can't expect a writer to shoehorn equivalent top end feats of every sort into an arc when he's got deadlines to meet, an ENJOYABLE story to finish, and an editor to appease. If the whole point of the arc is that "Character A" is more powerful than ever, then obviously the character's top end feats from previous arcs should be considered viable for the character in question. A character not preforming up to previously established levels is the very definition of PIS/SMvF.

Honestly I'm not much of a fan of flat character distinctions in regards to feats. I mean obviously there will be those times when such a thing is appropriate(IE no one should ever try to use Grey Hulk's intelligence feats for Savage Hulk), but IMO those things should be matters that are handled within the debate and decided by logic and common sense rather than be totally curtailed from being discussed. IMO, the rules should exist to make sure all characters are held up to the same standards, not to determine the limits of individual characters.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No prob. As always I'm only popping in for a bit I'm happy to at least throw my stance on the matter into the mix.

While I understand why it seems easier to simply restrict WWH/WBH solely to what was shown in those arcs, IMO doing so would unfair to the character. Hulk has a LONG history and an incredibly impressive list of feats to his credit, you can't expect a writer to shoehorn equivalent top end feats of every sort into an arc when he's got deadlines to meet, an ENJOYABLE story to finish, and an editor to appease. If the whole point of the arc is that "Character A" is more powerful than ever, then obviously the character's top end feats from previous arcs should be considered viable for the character in question. A character not preforming up to previously established levels is the very definition of PIS/SMvF.

Honestly I'm not much of a fan of flat character distinctions in regards to feats. I mean obviously there will be those times when such a thing is appropriate(IE no one should ever try to use Grey Hulk's intelligence feats for Savage Hulk), but IMO those things should be matters that are handled within the debate and decided by logic and common sense rather than be totally curtailed from being discussed. IMO, the rules should exist to make sure all characters are held up to the same standards, not to determine the limits of individual characters.

In that case, as Superman was mentioned (not by me, btw...):

If a thread specifies OWAW Superman, can Abhi take the highest highs of 'normal' Superman, and exponentially draw the line? After all, by logic and common sense, if 'normal' Superman can do XYZ, then OWAW Supes should be capable of the same to the nth degree.

So imagine abhi gleefully rubbing his hands, and scan dumping normal Supes and his resistance to magic/telepathy/Kryptonite. The highest ever speed feats and strength feats, and then claiming that OWAW has that and more.

DoS Doomsday took an energy blast that tore a hole in reality. H/P Doomsday, therefore, can tank....I dunno, whatever it is but incredibly amped, lol.

Kuurth has, on paper, both the enchantments of Cyttorrak AND the Serpent. Am I allowed to take Juggy's highest showings, apply it to him?

Sodom Yat, has, on paper (lol), Kryptonian level physicals AND a GL ring AND the Ion entity. Shall I stack them up on each other, or am I restricted to what was actually shown on panel by the character?

Beast is another good example. On paper, he has had several upgrades. So shall I take his highest showings back when he was human/ape level, and draw a line upwards? Or am I forced to actually use what is depicted?

Writers and artists don't care for these battleboards, lol. They don't care that back in 1994, character XYZ performed such and such a feat, so they should be able to do that same feat but better.

We care. and we have the distinctions, however. And if a thread specifies WBH, then it should be WBH. Not using Savage feats, especially if it is contradicted by WWH feats, say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In that case, as Superman was mentioned (not by me, btw...):

If a thread specifies OWAW Superman, can Abhi take the highest highs of 'normal' Superman, and exponentially draw the line? After all, by logic and common sense, if 'normal' Superman can do XYZ, then OWAW Supes should be capable of the same to the nth degree.

So imagine abhi gleefully rubbing his hands, and scan dumping normal Supes and his resistance to magic/telepathy/Kryptonite. The highest ever speed feats and strength feats, and then claiming that OWAW has that and more.

DoS Doomsday took an energy blast that tore a hole in reality. H/P Doomsday, therefore, can tank....I dunno, whatever it is but incredibly amped, lol.

Kuurth has, on paper, both the enchantments of Cyttorrak AND the Serpent. Am I allowed to take Juggy's highest showings, apply it to him?

Sodom Yat, has, on paper (lol), Kryptonian level physicals AND a GL ring AND the Ion entity. Shall I stack them up on each other, or am I restricted to what was actually shown on panel by the character?

Beast is another good example. On paper, he has had several upgrades. So shall I take his highest showings back when he was human/ape level, and draw a line upwards? Or am I forced to actually use what is depicted?

Writers and artists don't care for these battleboards, lol. They don't care that back in 1994, character XYZ performed such and such a feat, so they should be able to do that same feat but better.

We care. and we have the distinctions, however. And if a thread specifies WBH, then it should be WBH. Not using Savage feats, especially if it is contradicted by WWH feats, say.

Actually, yes... there's not a single logical reason that Abhi shouldn't be able to credit OWAW Supes with reg Supes's feats. Now I'm sure he and I would disagree on just where to draw the line on how much better OWAW Supes was than normal, but simply saying that he's better is no where close to an unreasonable claim. I'm not saying that there should be any kind of specific multiplier applied to the feats of weaker versions of Hulk(or Supes) and then credited to WWH/WBH(or OWAW Supes), just that better feats should be possible. The specifics of HOW MUCH better is subject to debate, but using the prior feat as a baseline... I see nothing wrong with that unless the original feat itself is for some reason invalid.

Doomsday... I'd say possibly for HP DD, but no for DOS. First of all, it wasn't DOS DD that tanked that blast, it was DD from the one shot. Now I know DOS chronologically came out after the one shot but hear me out. DD is an ultra evolved kryptonian and I believe there's been at least 1 or 2 references to him absorbing solar energy like Supes. When he came out of the ground in DOS he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years(possibly hundred of thousands, can't remember specifics) after being "killed" and having his solar reserves totally depleted and therefor was not really the same guy who took that blast. There's even evidence to support this in the DOS arc in the form of his bone protrusions(that he had during the one shot) not being pronounced while he was covered by the suit but growing as the suit was destroyed. And since the whole arc took place over the course of less than a day, it seems unreasonable to me to assume he had ever gotten back up to his previous level of power without a specific on panel acknowledgement that he'd done so. Now if it had been specifically established at some point that he came out of the ground even more powerful than he was against the GL corps it would likely change my opinion, but as far as I know it hasn't been so I personally don't consider feats from the one shot as being valid for DOS DD.

Not trying to sidetrack the discussion with all that, it's just something that I've been wanting to put out there for a while when I see people discussion the one shot and DOS.

Kuurth... absolutely. No logical reason why he'd be any less powerful.

Yat is a totally different character than other Daxamites and GLs. Superman and Hal are the elite among their kind so it doesn't make sense to assume Yat is the equal of either, just as it doesn't make sense to assume that a random human who get's his strength tripled will be 3x stronger than Captain America. But as far as the basic stuff sure. No reason to assume that a typical sword would cut him or that he can't fly/create a cube construct even if he's never been in a situation that has those events happen.

Beast... oh I love the guy but he suffers from the "Worf effect" even more the Worf does. At this point the name should really be changed to the "Beast effect" lol. Anyway, as far as his actual feats go sure. If he could throw a car and do a "ground pound" as an ape than he should def be able to repeat those feats as a Cat if the form is acknowledged as being more powerful. That's not to say that any upper limit beyond those feats should be guessed at without some proper indication, but like the OWAW Supes stuff those feats should be considered the minimum of what he's capable of.


Yes but the "we care more than they do" sword cuts both ways on this one. Debates on this board aren't determined strictly by the issue that came out last week, the rules in regards to PIS and full capacity exist BECAUSE we care more about the established history of the characters than the average writer will. And as long as those rules and standards are in play for characters on this board, they should apply equally to Hulk and protect him just as much as they do anyone else.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for this.

This post shows EXACTLY why we have distinctions. WBH/WWH/Savage etc etc.

By feats, Savage can well be above WWH, or even WBH (bit of a stretch, lol, but semi-doable). Yet, character statements say that WWH should be >> Savage. Green scar is WBH holding himself back to the point that his walking around strength (base) is what enraged versions of Savage/Bannerless Hulk showed. All of his abilities are amplified including healing and of course TP resistance due to rage

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In that case, as Superman was mentioned (not by me, btw...):

If a thread specifies OWAW Superman, can Abhi take the highest highs of 'normal' Superman, and exponentially draw the line? After all, by logic and common sense, if 'normal' Superman can do XYZ, then OWAW Supes should be capable of the same to the nth degree.

So imagine abhi gleefully rubbing his hands, and scan dumping normal Supes and his resistance to magic/telepathy/Kryptonite. The highest ever speed feats and strength feats, and then claiming that OWAW has that and more.

DoS Doomsday took an energy blast that tore a hole in reality. H/P Doomsday, therefore, can tank....I dunno, whatever it is but incredibly amped, lol.

Kuurth has, on paper, both the enchantments of Cyttorrak AND the Serpent. Am I allowed to take Juggy's highest showings, apply it to him?

Sodom Yat, has, on paper (lol), Kryptonian level physicals AND a GL ring AND the Ion entity. Shall I stack them up on each other, or am I restricted to what was actually shown on panel by the character?

Beast is another good example. On paper, he has had several upgrades. So shall I take his highest showings back when he was human/ape level, and draw a line upwards? Or am I forced to actually use what is depicted?

Writers and artists don't care for these battleboards, lol. They don't care that back in 1994, character XYZ performed such and such a feat, so they should be able to do that same feat but better.

We care. and we have the distinctions, however. And if a thread specifies WBH, then it should be WBH. Not using Savage feats, especially if it is contradicted by WWH feats, say.

So if I made a thread of OWAW Superman vs Jean Grey and said Jean wins easy 10/10 via telepathy, how would you counter it? Superman during OWAW didn't encounter any telepathy during the story, so how would you counter my argument?

Originally posted by carver9
So if I made a thread of OWAW Superman vs Jean Grey and said Jean wins easy 10/10 via telepathy, how would you counter it? Superman during OWAW didn't encounter any telepathy during the story, so how would you counter my argument?

WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT INCLUDING SUPERMAN IN YOUR WAR?!!!!!!

I'LL BREAK YOU, GAMMITE!!!!

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Green scar is WBH holding himself back to the point that his walking around strength (base) is what enraged versions of Savage/Bannerless Hulk showed. All of his abilities are amplified including healing and of course TP resistance due to rage

My point is that if an attack is shown to be successful against WWH, one cannot use Savage feats to argue WBH will be resistant.

Originally posted by carver9
So if I made a thread of OWAW Superman vs Jean Grey and said Jean wins easy 10/10 via telepathy, how would you counter it? Superman during OWAW didn't encounter any telepathy during the story, so how would you counter my argument?

I would use normal Superman being resistant to it, and claim OWAW is 10,000 times more resistant /faster and will just stand there and laugh.

You will then counter with a scan of a sun dipped (not as long as OWAW) Superman struggling against telepathy (so, stronger than normal Superman, but weaker than OWAW. Pretend such a scan exists).

What should I do then?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Lol, we've been talking often about you, dmills. Welcome back. Should I be flattered or worried lol?

Hey man, long time no see.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I would use normal Superman being resistant to it, and claim OWAW is 10,000 times more resistant /faster and will just stand there and laugh.

You will then counter with a scan of a sun dipped (not as long as OWAW) Superman struggling against telepathy (so, stronger than normal Superman, but weaker than OWAW. Pretend such a scan exists).

What should I do then?

Was OWAW Superman stronger or did he just stop holding back per KMC? And you'll use scans outside of OWAW to aid in an argument for Superman? Why? I thought you separate the story from other Superman titles?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT INCLUDING SUPERMAN IN YOUR WAR?!!!!!!

I'LL BREAK YOU, GAMMITE!!!!

Let's do the BZ.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Let's do the BZ.

At this point you're talking to yourself.

Okay, I guess its not happening then.

Just as well I suppose. I have no clue how to get my hands on comics with all the torrent sites down.

I think Nova wins, I'll make my case when I get home from work.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Okay, I guess its not happening then.

Just as well I suppose. I have no clue how to get my hands on comics with all the torrent sites down.

I think Nova wins, I'll make my case when I get home from work.
Http://Getcomics.info

Try it.

Originally posted by carver9
Was OWAW Superman stronger or did he just stop holding back per KMC? And you'll use scans outside of OWAW to aid in an argument for Superman? Why? I thought you separate the story from other Superman titles?

I would do it, to show how illogical your position is.

Glad you can see the irony.

Also, answer the q. Would you allow me to use scans of a weaker character to support an argument for the strongest ever character, when it is directly contradicted by the second strongest level of said character?

IOW, using level 3 to argue for level 1, when level 2 has opposrie showings

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I would do it, to show how illogical your position is.

Glad you can see the irony.

Also, answer the q. Would you allow me to use scans of a weaker character to support an argument for the strongest ever character, when it is directly contradicted by the second strongest level of said character?

IOW, using level 3 to argue for level 1, when level 2 has opposrie showings

I'm not arguing against any of this...I'm asking you a question. I'm asking, how would you counter my argument on Jean Grey mind killing OWAW Superman with ease. Hell, how could you counter her stomping Sun Dipped Superman with a mind whammy? Would you give her a 10/10 because of this? You also want to look at OWAW Superman threads. Start with this one. A lot of the arguments in the thread involved showings of Superman that happened OUTSIDE of OWAW even though the thread was OWAW Superman against Odin.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=622559&highlight="OWAW+Superman+vs

Exactly.

Strange how your mind is fixated on Supes, but ok.

Now, what would happen if there existed a scan of a sun dipped Superman (stronger than normal, weaker than OWAW...I.e only sundipped for one minute or something) being mind raped?

Would you allow me to use normal Superman's feats of resisting TP, as proof that OWAW tanks Jean?

Answer: Of course you wouldn't. Feats take precedence, right?

Dance around the q all day if you want. But we both know, if there existed such a showing, you'd post it.