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Standard equipment, morals off. Fights take place in the Emperor's Throne Room on the Death Star II.

Warmup: Qui-Gon Jinn & TPM Kenobi

1. AotC Obi-Wan & AotC Anakin

2. Mace Windu & Aayla Secura

3. Quinlan Vos & Asajj Ventress

4. Count Dooku & Asajj Ventress

5. Darth Maul & Savage Opress

Boss: The Emperor & and a Royal Guard (Vader has RotJ Luke on his team)

Could stop at 2, if he doesn't stops at 5 or Boss.

EDIT: Wait, for 3 is Vos Jedi or Sith?

Stops at 2.

Stops at 2.

Looses all beisdes perhaps 1 and warm up.

2-Boss.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Stops at 2.

3 or 4.

Mace solos.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Mace solos.

Windu > Maul = Dooku, and Vader clears (much to my dismay).

Warmup: Qui-Gon Jinn & TPM Kenobi wins 7/10

1. AotC Obi-Wan & AotC Anakin wins 8/10

2. Mace Windu & Aayla Secura wins 1/10

3. Quinlan Vos & Asajj Ventress (assuming dark-side vos) wins 1-2/10

4. Count Dooku & Asajj Ventress wins 0-1/10

5. Darth Maul & Savage Opress wins 2-3/10

Boss: The Emperor & and a Royal Guard (Vader has RotJ Luke on his team) wins 1/10

Originally posted by Geistalt
Windu > Maul = Dooku, and Vader clears (much to my dismay).

Vader clears? Insane.

Wait, rest between rounds?

Why does Vader fall at 2, exactly?
Anyways, 4, 5 or boss.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wait, rest between rounds?

Obviously.

Dies to Sidious before he can throw him down a shaft

Originally posted by MythLord
Why does Vader fall at 2, exactly?




Because Mace alone is probably on par with Vader.

If however Vader ragdolls Secura quickly, then he could win.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because Mace alone is probably on par with Vader.

If however Vader ragdolls Secura quickly, then he could win.

Nah, he really isn't. He's the better duelist, but physically and Force-wise he's inferior.

Originally posted by MythLord
Nah, he really isn't. He's the better duelist, but physically and Force-wise he's inferior.


Which probably makes the all out a split tbh.

Also physically Mace is still pretty damn strong, and probably more agile than Vader.

He's definitely more agile than Vader. Wasn't Ahsoka jumping all around him? Not to mention Mace is tier 9 as a combatant, whereas I'm not sure Vader belongs there.

However, Vader's edge against Mace in Canon in the Force might be quite a bit larger than it was in Canon. Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.

Vader's definitely better in the Force. But I'm not sure about ragdolling the guy who went toe to toe with Sidious.

It'd more likely be a case of Mace keeps getting the edge in Sabers until Vader force pushes/slams him, then they go at it again.

Sidious didn't attempt TK against Mace in Canon.

Canon only has Mace genuinely capable of competing with Sidious, though. How do you think Vader compares?

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's definitely more agile than Vader. Wasn't Ahsoka jumping all around him? Not to mention Mace is tier 9 as a combatant, whereas I'm not sure Vader belongs there.

However, Vader's edge against Mace in Canon in the Force might be quite a bit larger than it was in Canon. Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour. Don't you have Windu on level with Dooku? I wonder why you pay Gillard attention when he has the Count on tier 8. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Don't you have Windu on level with Dooku? I wonder why you pay Gillard attention when he has the Count on tier 8. mmm

Canon Mace isn't on par with Dooku. No quote supports that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon Mace isn't on par with Dooku. No quote supports that. As in Mace > Dooku? Or the reverse? But I was talking about Legends anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon only has Mace genuinely capable of competing with Sidious, though. Wrong.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As in Mace > Dooku? Or the reverse? But I was talking about Legends anyway.

This is Canon only and I was using Canon Mace.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong.

What are you talking about? He's in the same tier as Sidious per Gillard, and since the amp thing doesn't exist if we're not taking the RotS novel, then Mace did contend with Sidious.

The only defense is that, of course, Sidious may have held back to varying degrees.

1. **** Gillard.

2. Various sources, including the Ultimate Star Wars, say Windu only "appeared" to win.

3. Vaapad as neither been or not been confirmed to exist in Canon.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. **** Gillard.

2. Various sources, including the Ultimate Star Wars, say Windu only "appeared" to win.

3. Vaapad as neither been or not been confirmed to exist in Canon.

1. You were bringing him up just a moment ago

Anyway, he wrote the fights. You can't dismiss him because you don't like him, lol.

2. That doesn't directly mean that Mace didn't win; it leaves it open for discussion. Besides, I never said Mace beat Sidious. I said he could contend, which he did.

3. What does that have to do with my point?

1. To use your own poison against you.

And seeing as he's not working on Canon moving forward, and his word is not binding, I canz.

2. Against an opponent who may or may not have been holding back.

3. Are you daft? You said that Vaapad does not exist in Canon, that hasn't been confirmed by any source.

On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.
Just like he ragdolled Obi-Wan and Ahsoka?

And using Gillard's quotes isn't a best idea at the moment. Anyway, of we are using outdated quotes of Gillard, then we should use outdated quotes of Lucas at first place. And Vader again will be just a shadow of his former self.

2, 4, or boss. Not sure

Canon Maul = Canon Dooku

Savage > Asajj

and Vader < Maul + Savage.

Originally posted by McP
Just like he ragdolled Obi-Wan and Ahsoka?

And using Gillard's quotes isn't a best idea at the moment. Anyway, of we are using outdated quotes of Gillard, then we should use outdated quotes of Lucas at first place. And Vader again will be just a shadow of his former self.

The situation wasn't sour for him in either of those situations.

What's wrong with Gillard's quotes?

And Vader being a shadow of his former self in lightsaber combat is entirely possible now. Not that Gillard or Lucas ever said that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. To use your own poison against you.

And seeing as he's not working on Canon moving forward, and his word is not binding, I canz.

2. Against an opponent who may or may not have been holding back.

3. Are you daft? You said that Vaapad does not exist in Canon, that hasn't been confirmed by any source.

On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it.

1. Didn't hear a legitimate reason there.

2. To unspecified extents. Though even holistically, Mace is in Yoda and Sidious' league.

3. I didn't say that. I said an amp isn't suggested anywhere, which it isn't. Unless you can prove that such an amp exists, then, well, it doesn't. Simple.

4. If you're dismissing Gillard quotes for no reason, I can do the same to the same show that has Anakin struggle with Senators

1. Read again.

2. Nah.

3. You said exactly that, and just said it again. Which is an argument from ignorance.

4. Because Gillard has the same authority as a Canon work.

I am dismissing Gillard's word because I've no reason to assume they are binding, and because it doesn't align with existing continuity.

1. So your interpretation of what's good or appropriate for Canon, and because his word isn't binding (nobody's is). As I said, you need something stronger than that.

2. Yeah. He has a few quotes labelling him as the Order's best, and he's in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious per Gillard.

3. It's not an argument for ignorance. It's up to you to prove that there was an amp. Otherwise, what reason would I have to believe such a thing exists? You yourself said that the novel doesn't count unless it aligns with the films - which doesn't depict any sort of amplification or anything.

4. A Canon work that occasionally brings in things that aren't consistent with any other SW media?

Gillard wrote the film fights, which form the entire basis for canon. The fact that his stances are supported by the RotS novel means that Lucas, Stover and Gillard are all aligned on certain facts which you're refusing to accept because you don't think they're binding. That's too bad for you.

I mean, at the very least, there should be something to the contrary in order for you to make an argument against such a stance (or ignore it). And I'm not seeing anything to the contrary here. What exactly is questionable about this? I'm not saying it's irrevocable, but it at least shifts the burden of proof onto the opposition.

1. No I don't, it's not Canon and he has no say, authority or involvement in ongoing Canon (unlike say Filoni, or Pablo Hidalgo). So why should I take his word over what I'm seeing on screen?

2. So he's better than Yoda?

3. It is, you've proposed a false dilemma, or rather:

If a proposition has not been proved, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.

--(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)

My stance is that the facts of that fight have not been confirmed, and in particular we do not know whether or not Vaapad is in play. Therefore we cannot assume that it was not and that therefore Mace legitimately contended with Sidious.

4. A cheap, tacky excuse. And I have no idea why you are falling back on Lucas and the RotS novel, who state that Vaapad was in fact in play. And I did provide alternative evidence:Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand Mace was driven back by Mother Talzin, whom Sidious >>, so there you have it. To which I'd add that he was also unable to push back Maul, despite having Secura for back up.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. No I don't, its not Canon and he has no say, authority or involvement in ongoing Canon (unlike say Filoni, or Pablo Hidalgo). So why should I take his word over what I'm seeing on screen?

2. So he's better than Yoda?

3. It is, you've proposed a false dilemma, or rather:

If a proposition has not been proved, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.

--(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)

My stance is that the facts of that fight have not been confirmed, and in particular we do not know whether or not Vaapad is in play. Therefore we cannot assume that it was not and that therefore Mace legitimately contended with Sidious.

4. A cheap, tacky excuse. And I have no idea why you are falling back on Lucas and the RotS novel, who state that Vaapad was in fact in play. And I did provide alternative evidence:To which I'd add that he was also unable to push back Maul, despite having Secura for back up.

1. Maybe because what you're seeing on screen was done by him?

2. Didn't say that. But he has a few quotes suggesting that, which nevertheless denotes an extremely high level of skill. And again, Gillard suggests he's on their level.

Talzin's fight against Mace seemed to be mostly comrprised strength contests and wild swings that he dodged.

3. There is no proposition. I'm not proposing anything other than Mace contending with Sidious, which I hope you can prove for yourself. It's not an argument of ignorance to deduce that based solely on the film and website. The entire notion of Vaapad's properties come from Legends sources to begin with.

4. Even if you think it's cheap, what makes Talzin so unskilled? Aren't you one of those who defends her SoD #4 showing? And then there's the stuff I said above.

As for the Maul feat, who said he was unable to push back Maul? One still-motion panel depiction of the fight?

Although if you want to take "current/new material" over older ones, then that's fine. That means I know I can wank Dooku in discussions with you

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Maybe because what you're seeing on screen was done by him?

2. Didn't say that. But he has a few quotes suggesting that, which nevertheless denotes an extremely high level of skill. And again, Gillard suggests he's on their level.

Talzin's fight against Mace seemed to be mostly comrprised strength contests and wild swings that he dodged.

3. There is no proposition. I'm not proposing anything other than Mace contending with Sidious, which I hope you can prove for yourself. It's not an argument of ignorance to deduce that based solely on the film and website. The entire notion of Vaapad's properties come from Legends sources to begin with.

4. Even if you think it's cheap, what makes Talzin so unskilled? Aren't you one of those who defends her SoD #4 showing? And then there's the stuff I said above.

As for the Maul feat, who said he was unable to push back Maul? One still-motion panel depiction of the fight?

Although if you want to take "current/new material" over older ones, then that's fine. That means I know I can wank Dooku in discussions with you 1. And is now open to viewer intepretation.

2. But unless you take the quote literally, does not prove he is their peer.

3. "It's not a proposition, I'm just making a proposition!" You really are daft aren't you?

4. She's clearly nowhere near as skilled as Sidious, it doesn't take a genius to work that out. And in relation to tanking Sidious' lightning, not her ineptitude with a blade. On top of that Sidious is more powerful and therefore likely more forceful a combatant, and yet Talzin's flailings have her effortlessly batting aside Windu's attack, and forced him to rapidly backpedal.

https://i.imgflip.com/1co2wx.gif

Yet in Revenge of the Sith he meets Sidious' strength head on:

https://i.imgflip.com/1co3l5.gif

Evidently something has changed. And it's not an onset of arthiritis.

And as for his fight with Maul, in that one panel he is depicted kicking Secura in the face while simultaneously blocking Windu's attack, evidently he wasn't having too hard a time of it. Which he should have been if Windu is as powerful as you claim.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. And is now open to viewer intepretation.

If you're applying that here, then it'd only be fair to apply that to Vader's quote in LotS.



I didn't say Mace was Yoda's peer. He evidently isn't. But he's in the same tier.



Not daft enough to fail to recognize that my proposition was, as I said, Mace contending with Sidious.

From a Canon-only standpoint, please tell me where there's any possibility of an amplification. The entire notion of an amp is based on Legends material, according to you.



We have absolutely no conception of Talzin's skill other than her inferiority to Sidious.



Well, you tend not to be able to dodge so many strikes in consecutivity unless you're a lot better than your opponent.

Besides, you cited Talzin's strength, which is related to Force augmentation, not blade skill. So Mace struggling briefly against her power attacks is hardly indicative of anything, when her Force power is right up there with Sidious.

There's also a lot of other TCW discrepancies with continuity, even in Canon. So that's worth mentioning.



It's not evidence that he wasn't having a hard time of it at all.

In the RotS novel, Dooku's getting his ass handed to him by Anakin alone, yet he still manages to incapacitate Obi-Wan whilst fending off Anakin when the fight reaches its climax. A mere snap-shot of a fight isn't an accurate representation of anything of the sort. In desperate, critical moments, characters are fully capable of holding off somebody stronger than them long enough for them to dispose of a weak link.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you're applying that here, then it'd only be fair to apply that to Vader's quote in LotS.OK.

Which isn't stated anywhere either.

Essentially we have a collection of quotes that if taken literally would mean Windu > Yoda, but instead you've decided to take it as proof they are in the same tier, but that's an arbitrary half measure. You either accept what it says, or don't.

Is that what you meant? I thought your point was that he could do better cartwheels.

Why from a Canon-only standpoint? The point is that Legends sources introduced the concept of Vaapad, a concept that we don't know whether or not has been carried over into Canon. However as long as there remains the possibility that is has, we cannot assume it hasn't.

Only if your a returd, but regardless Sheev's superiority to her is my point anyway.

Or because they are flailing about haphazardly.

And yet he handled Sidious' strength just fine in RotS, that's the ****ing point lmao. Windu's ability to contend with Sidious reflecting more than just blade skill, but comparative Force augmentation as well, obviously.

No it's not.

Fair, but Anakin was not a Yoda-tier opponent, but when he levelled up Dooku got smashed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK.

Which isn't stated anywhere either.

Essentially we have a collection of quotes that if taken literally would mean Windu > Yoda, but instead you've decided to take it as proof they are in the same tier, but that's an arbitrary half measure. You either accept what it says, or don't.

I can take what it says and make my own judgment.

And it's stated by Gillard.



Then I'm not sure why you're trying to mock me for saying that I'm not making a proposition, given that I explicitly noted the exception of proposing Mace's contention with Sidious.



Because this is a Canon only thread. We're only including Canon sources.



There's no measure of her skill anywhere other than blatant inferiority to Sheev.



TCW's crappy animation, probably. But if it's just unskilled flailing, then you're only giving me more of a reason to call it PIS. Why would any unskilled opponent challenge Mace?



From a Canon only standpoint, it'd seem like he simply can do that. With Nick Gillard's tier 9 and his accolades and all.

Although Mace's other saber showings as of yet are rather lackluster, it seems.



Yes, it ****ing is LMAO. We have Dooku and Anakin fighting evenly just months after AotC, and Dooku being about even or even superior to Obi-Wan + Anakin just months before RotS.



Does Canon Drallig have anything to his merit? Because as far as Canon only goes, Anakin's feats, particularly against Dooku and Drallig, are rather diminished.

Originally posted by SunRazer


Does Canon Drallig have anything to his merit? Because as far as Canon only goes, Anakin's feats, particularly against Dooku and Drallig, are rather diminished.

Naw, he's no longer the Jedi Battlemaster, no longer having been personally trained by Yoda, etc.

He's just the head of the Temple Guard and a lightsaber instructor.

Pitiful. Canon Anakin might be in deep shit indeed.

Why I'm sticking by Legends being superior to Canon in just about everything. Minus like...2 exceptions.

Well, Canon still confirms that Anakin > Dooku or Anakin = Dooku, and the case for the former is tangibly more persuasive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can take what it says and make my own judgment.Arbitrarily.

I'm aware.

Because what your saying has no point.

Lol. Is logic excluded by the rules as well?

The fact the fights with no technique is also one.

Because she's far more powerful? I thought the inference would be obvious. Talzin is a unskilled duelist, but the sheer power behind her blows makes her overpowering all the same.

I love how you continue to bring up Gillard when he's not a Canon source, its almost as if your making this up as you go along.

Regardless, that's not a response to the evidence that he actually cannot.

Crap examples. In the first case the fight was no less even than what it was on screen, and the in the second instance you've ascribed it an arbitrary time frame with zero evidence. All without accounting for Anakin's extraordinary growth curve.

Not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
]The fact the fights with no technique is also one.

Because she's far more powerful? I thought the inference would be obvious. Talzin is a unskilled duelist, but the sheer power behind her blows makes her overpowering all the same.

An unskilled duelist shouldn't be making Mace dodge at all.

Anyway, I watched the fight again and your argument for augmentation is also flawed since Talzin pushing Mace back is a one-off, and that only happened after a brief saberlock. After that, Mace pushes Talzin back once following a brief saberlock, and in two other instances, they're evenly matched in a saberlock (the first and last saberlocks, for reference).

Citing an out-of-context example isn't going to do you any favors. Mace is clearly capable of contending with Talzin's augmented strength. I mean, I could also post an out-of-context GIF of Dooku pushing back Anakin and suggest that he's stronger, but that'd be ludicrous.



As of yet, Gillard remains a much stronger basis for a stance than a still of Mace vs Maul or an out-of-context snippet of Talzin vs Mace.

Not really. All you're going off is a still of him fighting Maul and an out-of-context snippet of his fight with Talzin.



I don't know what you're talking about, but the lightsaber fight was a draw on-screen. Dooku only ever got the advantage with telekinesis.



I thought it was established already. If it wasn't, then I'll drop the point. I'm not interested in arguing over timeframes.



Just curious to see how good Canon Anakin is. Not quite as good as Legends Anakin, evidently.

Out of context? OK. Let's put it into contexts. Those being Mace, an aggressive duelist, rushing Talzin with the intentions of pressing the offense, but finding himself rapidly backpedalling as of result of Talzin casually smacking away his blade and so getting past his guard.

That makes Talzin stronger, yeah.

Now as for the evidence you think counters this, bladelocks in SW are notoriously inconclusive, and don't necessarily suggest parity. Examples in which the same has been done including Dooku against Yoda & Anakin, and Ahsoka against Grievous and Vader. It's impressive yes, but it doesn't mean they are equals.

So yeah, I plan to continue ramming this "out of context snippet" down your throat sry.

https://i.imgflip.com/1co2wx.gif

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know what you're talking about, but the lightsaber fight was a draw on-screen. Dooku only ever got the advantage with telekinesis.I'm talking about the good 20 seconds in AotC where Dooku and Anakin appear to fight evenly. The TCW duel is just an extension of that.

Did it appear like that? Dooku takes out one of his sabers fairly quickly then owns him. The prequels aren't the best at showing the state of the fight due to over choreography, but Dooku was clearly the superior.

This part did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=2m10s

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Out of context? OK. Let's put it into contexts. Those being Mace, an aggressive duelist, rushing Talzin with the intentions of pressing the offense, but finding himself rapidly backpedalling as of result of Talzin casually smacking away his blade and so getting past his guard.

That makes Talzin stronger, yeah.

lol So Dooku's stronger than Anakin since he slapped aside Anakin's attack along with Obi-Wan's and unbalanced the former, "and so getting past his guard"?

https://media.giphy.com/media/DhssQNLNUHYIw/giphy.gif



That might be the case if it were a one-off (like your example), but not if it were repeated bladelocks. Besides, I mentioned Mace pushing Talzin back as well, not just the inconclusive ones.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm talking about the good 20 seconds in AotC where Dooku and Anakin appear to fight evenly. The TCW duel is just an extension of that.

The junior novel claims that Dooku's toying with Anakin, and the script has Dooku stomping Anakin after recovering from the little surprise he got when Anakin attacked with two sabers. And a range of supplementary sources support Dooku winning easily or being far better, even in Canon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol So Dooku's stronger than Anakin since he slapped aside Anakin's attack along with Obi-Wan's and unbalanced the former, "and so getting past his guard"?

https://media.giphy.com/media/DhssQNLNUHYIw/giphy.gifHe caused their blades to rebound off each other, and moreover is a master of leverage. Poor example.

Why? And when Mace pushed Talzin back he had superior leverage.

Which should tell you something about their Tatooine duel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He caused their blades to rebound off each other, and moreover is a master of leverage. Poor example.

There was a brief saberlock, so it wasn't just a rebound.



Talzin had the advantage of momentum, since she was jumping down on him. And he still pushed her back.



It would if Anakin doesn't happen to be on the losing end against Tyranus in S6.