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As the title says - who is your top 5? I have Palpatine, Luke, Valkorion, 'UnuThul, and....not sure who has the last spot, lmao.

Just discuss, tbh.

Nyax
UnuThul
Soresu Taalon
Luke
Palpatine

Not necessarily in order

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nyax
UnuThul
Soresu Taalon
Luke
Palpatine

Not necessarily in order

Valk would be sixth.

What about an extended top 10? Would someone like Joruus, Krayt, Revan, and Jacen make the cut?

Krayt made every Dark side user in the whole galaxy feel his presence. I'd say he's up there.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What about an extended top 10? Would someone like Joruus, Krayt, Revan, and Jacen make the cut?
Jacen and Revan have amazing TP resistance feat, but there offensive ones aren't that good. They are kinda hard to rank.
Joorus, Krayt and the Dread Masters are likely in the Top 10, or at least 15, yeah.
Also, Darish Vol is up there

Revan influencing Vitiate to postpone a war for three centuries, and then to end the war that Vitiate been obsessing over for a thousand years, isn't "that good?"

Lmfao.

Wait, he did that? Nvm, Top 7.

Revan postponed the war for three centuries, and then forced Vitiate to sign the Treaty of Coruscant.

Revan > Valkorion confirmed

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nyax
UnuThul
Soresu Taalon
Luke
Palpatine

Not necessarily in order
Sarasu Taalon only became that powerful as a result of having been immersed in the Pool of Knowledge (like Abeloth).

1. Abeloth
2. Darth Sidious
3. UnuThul
4. Sarasu Taalon
5. Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan influencing Vitiate to postpone a war for three centuries, and then to end the war that Vitiate been obsessing over for a thousand years, isn't "that good?"

Retconned, now he was just busy building a second Empire on the other side of the galaxy.

Quote for the retcon? Sounds like you being silly.

And I wonder who influenced Vitiate to create an empire that was all about using both sides of the Force. mmm

Darth Sidious is unquestionably number #1. Even Luke Skywalker does not have comparable showings.

-probing Yoda, stated to be the most powerful Jedi in history, without him noticing
-planting nightmares in Anakin's head
-planting dreams in Maul's head
-probing Tyranus without him noticing
-mentally enslaving 20 billion people and planting illusions in their heads without their knowledge from across the galaxy while performing other extremely demanding Force practises
-mentally enslaving DE Luke, stated to be the most powerful Jedi in history
-almost mentally enslaving DE Luke via aged hologram recording
-planting nightmares in post-RotJ Luke's head
-causing Vader to collapse to his knees from across the galaxy with barely an effort
-scanning the one trillion people of Coruscant and mind-wiping millions of them
-resisting Plagueis without any training
-using Battle Meditation on a galaxy-wide scale
-using the Force on a galactic scale to influence the minds of non-Force sensitives to travel to Byss
-imbalancing the Force with the sheer power of his mind alongside his master
-willing his own Force connection back after it had been severed even though he was dead

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote for the retcon? Sounds like you being silly.

https://youtu.be/VovR7Pl7N_4?t=1872



Not the guy who knew nothing about it, despite allegedly being "in Vitiate's mind, too" for 300 years.

Also, Zakuulians don't use both sides of the Force, don't be silly. They're just Force users that fall into the "grey area" like the Imperial Knights from Legacy.

"Across our history." Vitiate went absent following the Treaty of Coruscant, as Marr makes note of. Marr was never around for centuries, bro.

Who said Revan knew nothing of it? You?

After Sidious we have, in no particular order:

-Plagueis
-Krayt
-Valkorion
-Luke
-Yoda
-Revan
-Wyyrlok
-Tenebrous
-Zannah

Sas, refer to the SWTORE. It says Vitiate withdrew from affairs following the end of the war at the bottom of page 161.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Across our history."

Yes, the history of the Sith Empire. Unless you're suggesting that Marr and Vitiate had some sort of personal "history" worth making note of.




The fact that he never said or did anything that would even suggest he knew anything did.

Stating "our" doesn't mean "you and the entire Sith Empire," lmfao. It means Marr and Vitiate. That's what "our" means.
And yeah, they did have a personal history. Vitiate talked to the Dark Council and had private chats with Marr in the comics.

Besides operating Eternal Empire technology.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sas, refer to the SWTORE. It says Vitiate withdrew from affairs following the end of the war at the bottom of page 161.

Regardless, Vitiate's been working on Zakuul for centuries.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Stating "our" doesn't mean "you and the entire Sith Empire," lmfao. It means Marr and Vitiate. That's what "our" means.

Nah, you're totally bullshitting.



Meaning what, exactly? Just because I can pick up a gun doesn't mean I know where it was made.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Regardless, Vitiate's been working on Zakuul for centuries.
Right, but that doesn't retcon the postponing of the war.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nah, you're totally bullshitting.

Meaning what, exactly? Just because I can pick up a gun doesn't mean I know where it was made.
No, really, how does "our" not specifically mean Marr and Vitiate? Remember they have had personal chats: http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149570/3522462-752px-teneb_kel_ontmoet_de_sith_emperor.png

There's a difference between pressing a trigger and completing an elaborate ritual that is going to cleanse an entire world and resurrect a spirit from the dead.

The latter would demand extensive knowledge on what the hell you're doing.

Again, the fact that I can work the gun doesn't mean I know anything about where it was made. Especially considering I plan to use the gun to revolt against it's maker, and then subsequently invade the country he abandoned forever ago.

EDIT: Conceded on the point of Vitiate still remaining somewhat involved in the Empire's affairs up until the treaty, though. I was under the impression his silence started around the time Revan was imprisoned, I forgot about Bloodlines.

Well, Revan would recognize it's technology completely different from anything else the galaxy has ever seen, and that it's based right where Vitiate's spirit is resting. mmm

"Our history" definitely means the Sith Empire's history.

1. Valkorion
2. Revan
3. Dread Masters
4. UnuThul
5. Luke Skywalker
6. Sarasu Taalon
7. Palpatine
8. Jorus C'Baoth
9. Yoda
10. Lord Nyax

...****ing...

Darth Zannah...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"Our history" definitely means the Sith Empire's history.





So that means... He knows that Vitiate has a powerful planet-killing temple on Yavin IV that he retreats to when his body is destroyed. That doesn't mean he knew about the Eternal Empire--after all, it seems like it would be a pretty odd thing to ignore and never mention on his quest to stop Vitiate.

Also, just to confirm because I can't find the codex entry, is the ToS even Zakuul tech? Or is it just compared to the Eternal Throne because Vitiate constructed them both?

"Knowledge is power and here lays the closest technological cousin of the Eternal Empire: the Temple of Sacrifice."

Also, the fact Revan never mentions it doesn't mean it's retconned, it just means he never mentioned it.

The game never specifically stated Revan was unaware of the Eternal Empire, so acting like Revan's feats been retconned is stupid.

You don't ignore Bane's temple feat even though it was technically retconned with Shadow of Revan and the temple being destroyed.

And unlike Revan's, that one was actually retconned.

Wait, what are you even talking about? Our original assumption was that Vitiate's silence and withdrawal from the Empire's affairs was due to Revan's influence; now we know it's not. That's the "retcon", if you will.



Well I mean, the game doesn't specifically state Darth Thanaton was unaware of the Eternal Empire either, but I assume he was because he never mentioned it or made any actions based on his knowledge of it. Why treat Revan differently? If he knew about the Eternal Empire, then his entire post-TOR:Revan story arc would make no sense at all.

Episode 63 timing Sas

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Episode 63 timing Sas

Damn, we finally get a glimpse of The Supreme God. Nice.

He looks ****ing sick, IMO.

It'll take either Vegito or Beerus.

Originally posted by JKBart
1. Valkorion
2. Revan
3. Dread Masters
4. UnuThul
5. Luke Skywalker
6. Sarasu Taalon
7. Palpatine
8. Jorus C'Baoth
9. Yoda
10. Lord Nyax Why doesn't anyone else include Abeloth? She's just as much of an entity as prime Sarasu Taalon.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wait, what are you even talking about? Our original assumption was that Vitiate's silence and withdrawal from the Empire's affairs was due to Revan's influence; now we know it's not. That's the "retcon", if you will.



Well I mean, the game doesn't specifically state Darth Thanaton was unaware of the Eternal Empire either, but I assume he was because he never mentioned it or made any actions based on his knowledge of it. Why treat Revan differently? If he knew about the Eternal Empire, then his entire post-TOR:Revan story arc would make no sense at all.
The *fact* was Vitiate's postponing of the war and the initiation of the Treaty of Coruscant was Revan's influence, which hasn't changed since no retcon has been provided. Whether or not Revan's influence was such that Vitiate was silent because of it is unknown, since the only quote you provided for it is post-Revan's release.

The distinction being Revan was in Vitiate's mind, so a direct retcon would be needed for Revan not to know.

Or, alternatively, Revan was as mistaken about his level of influence over Vitiate as he was about everything else in SOR. mmm

Well the quotes about the influence primarily come from SWTORE, not Revan.

Not to say Revan didn't enjoy boosting his ego though.

SWTOR: E also states that Revan got driven insane from his experience, which you denied and said that SoR retconned.

I don't think that was SWTORE that said that.

Wouldn't SOR prove that rather than retcon it? mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't think that was SWTORE that said that.

It was.



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wouldn't SOR prove that rather than retcon it? mmm

Indeed.

Page number? Besides, Revan obviously didn't walk out of there without scars. He was significantly changed.

That being said, let's look at their respective goals:

Vitiate and the Dread Masters wanted to:
- Pry knowledge from Revan to escalate war plan: FAILED, war postponed for three centuries
- Convert Revan into their servant again as Darth Revan: FAILED, Revan hates Vitiate more than ever
- Splitting Revan into two separate incarnations: SEMI-SUCCESS, the full split was finished on the Foundry
- Use Revan as a link to see Force visions: SUCCESS, Vitiate saw visions of the future through Revan

Revan wanted to:
- Postpone the war as long as he could: SUCCESS, war postponed for three centuries
- Influence Vitiate to sign the Treaty of Coruscant: SUCCESS, the Jedi and the Republic were saved
- Pry knowledge from Vitiate and the Dread Masters: SUCCESS, Revan learned "centuries of knowledge"

It's on page 73.

Note that same paragraph notes that Revan "endured" Vitiate's attempts for centuries.

So yeah, obviously Revan into two, but as SoR states, that was Vitiate and the Dread Master's plan after realizing that Revan was too powerful to actually control or pry knowledge from in the first place.

Indeed. Although Meetra's Ghost also claims that Revan can't stand it much longer.

"stand it much longer"

The dude handled it for three-centuries. That's enough for any versus battle we'll ever discuss.

And frankly, that might have to do more with the drain aspect of the war than the telepathy aspect.

Well, in fairness, he did have an unlimited supply of Force energies, although that was to counter the Drain (it might have been of use against the TP in some form, though I won't press something as conjectural as this).

Anyways, Revan's willpower might be greater than Vitiate's, but that doesn't mean his TP is stronger. Unless ANH Leia >>>> Vader in TP.

So did Vitiate. And frankly, I doubt spirit Exile's power is unlimited.

I never said his TP was stronger - I merely said Revan's TP is insane.

That being said, Revan's TP should be comparable or on par, given what he did to Vitiate.

I don't understand the comparison you're making with Leia and Vader, but it's probably dumb.

1. Probably, actually. She didn't actually become one with the Force, and if Revan was nearing breaking-point, she probably couldn't supply him with any more energy. Unless that means Revan was just about to be destroyed outright (mentally, of course).

2. In fairness, Revan accomplished this due to some "link" and with Vitiate unsuspecting, didn't he?

3. Leia completely resisted Vader's attempts to extract information from her, even after half an hour of drugging and torture. It's similar to Revan vs Vitiate, only she didn't influence Vader's mind (though of course she didn't even know she was Force sensitive then).

1.

2. That was just the initial stage. In matters like the Treaty of Coruscant, Revan won't have the opportunity to subtly influence Vitiate like he was at the start. It would have to be a quick and direct influence, which is what SWTORE states. I also doubt he could do it unsuspecting with the DM also peering into Revan's mind.

3. Which is not even remotely, remotely comparable to anything we've discussed. Revan's TP is on par not because he resisted Vitiate, but because he influenced him and pried knowledge from him, lmfao.

And don't even dare compare being dominated and tortured by Vitiate and the DM for three centuries to a thirty minute torture session with Vader.

Han Solo could withstand the latter.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1.

2. That was just the initial stage. In matters like the Treaty of Coruscant, Revan won't have the opportunity to subtly influence Vitiate like he was at the start. It would have to be a quick and direct influence, which is what SWTORE states. I also doubt he could do it unsuspecting with the DM also peering into Revan's mind.

3. Which is not even remotely, remotely comparable to anything we've discussed. Revan's TP is on par not because he resisted Vitiate, but because he influenced him and pried knowledge from him, lmfao.

2. Is there any exposition on the DM's role in all of this?

3. Yes, my point is that the Treaty of Coruscant influence is Revan's saving grace. The resistance is a good showing of willpower, not TP.

It seems they all meditated together in a Kaas temple for centuries. I wonder what they were doing. mmm



I never said the resistance is indication of TP. You're literally trying to find an argument to make here when there is none.

And no, it's not his saving grace, since he also postponed the war and pried knowledge from Vitiate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It seems they all meditated together in a Kaas temple for centuries. I wonder what they were doing. mmm



I never said the resistance is indication of TP. You're literally trying to find an argument to make here when there is none.

And no, it's not his saving grace, since he also postponed the war and pried knowledge from Vitiate.

I know, I was making my point.

And he admits outright that he did those last two things due to the link. Doesn't the novel also say that Vitiate was oblivious to it or something? So he wasn't exactly shielding his mind from Revan.

After sacrificing sanity and years of his life to safeguard the Republic from the Emperor, Revan once again fell prey to the tragic flaw that previously drove him to spark the Jedi Civil War.
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111184078/4477896-1055581021-star-.jpg

mmm

Success?



>Leads the Sith Empire to the Foundry
>Ressurects Vitiate

Success?

No, because the novel just reflects the first year or so of the conflict, not the prolonged engagement. Revan subtly influencing Vitiate would be virtually impossible with the DM also inside his head. The novel doesn't mention the prying of knowledge, so the subtly thing can't be used for that either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
After sacrificing sanity and years of his life to safeguard the Republic from the Emperor, Revan once again fell prey to the tragic flaw that previously drove him to spark the Jedi Civil War.
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111184078/4477896-1055581021-star-.jpg

mmm

Success?



>Leads the Sith Empire to the Foundry
>Ressurects Vitiate

Success?
No, not successes. Revan indirectly helping Vitiate isn't the same as directly in regards to the conversation. Vitiate wanted Revan to kneel before him and follow his every order. Instead, Revan went against him so much that it nearly did a complete 360. Vitiate took advantage of that, but that has to do with intelligence and Revan's blind hatred, not TP.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate wanted Revan to kneel before him and follow his every order.

where is that specifically stated in-game tho

When he says Vitiate wants him back like he had him in the good old days.

Revan didn't exactly follow Vitiate's every order as Darth Revan, lol.

Revan referring to pre-leaving Kaas Darth Revan, tbh

The good ol' KOTOR days when Revan wasn't Vitiate's ho and was rebelling against him meaningfully?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Anyways, Revan says that the same link gave him influence, so he obviously used it. He cites learning centuries of knowledge and convincing Vitiate that peace was in his best interest right after talking about the link.

No shit, because otherwise they would have been battling across the galaxy.

The link allowed for a direct telepathic contest within the battleground of their minds.

You're doing that thing again where you waste two hours of my time debating a meaningless and inaccurate point, so I recommend you stop.

Sure. But the novel states:



He's obviously good, but not top 5, I don't think.

Dude, I addressed that at least three times already.

Again, I never said he was top five, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dude, I addressed that at least three times already.

Yeah, and you were wrong. The influence that Revan planted in Vitiate's mind would've accumulated to the point where he could convince Vitiate that peace was in his best interest. He was slowly augmenting the Emperor's caution and fear. This is obviously something built off previously accumulated influence. Suggesting that Revan more or less instantly influenced the Emperor to offer a treaty is basically suggesting that Revan mind controlled the Emperor.

As for the Dread Masters, obviously they weren't able to peer into Revan's mind every second of every day. We know they had to concentrate on other things such as tearing apart Republic fleets. They were also imprisoned well before the Treaty of Coruscant.



I know. That's just my musing of where he ranks.

*sigh*

OK, let's do this again.

No, because Revan's postponing and tempering was ultimately overcame. Vitiate waged the war and nearly destroyed the Republic and the Jedi. And so at Vitiate's greatest victory, when his hatred and lust for revenge would be the highest, Revan influenced Vitiate to spare the Jedi and the Republic.

I'm referring to the three centuries prior to the war.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*sigh*

OK, let's do this again.

No, because Revan's postponing and tempering was ultimately overcame. Vitiate waged the war and nearly destroyed the Republic and the Jedi. And so at Vitiate's greatest victory, when his hatred and lust for revenge would be the highest, Revan influenced Vitiate to spare the Jedi and the Republic.

I'm referring to the three centuries prior to the war.

The Dread Masters' presence probably allowed Vitiate to get over Revan and declare war on the Republic. Then, when they were imprisoned, Revan began to be able to influence Vitiate again, and thus persuaded him to make peace with the Republic.

That explanation seems to make the most sense.

except the Dread were involved for centuries prior to the declaration of war, so no.

"Centuries" can actually mean only ~150 years. For instance, Vitiate is said to be millennia old, when he's only 1300 years.

Either way, the Treaty of Coruscant bit was obviously after the Dread Masters got imprisoned.

What do you mean "only"? A millennia means a 1000, so it fits. And no, two centuries min.

Never disputed that.

No, a millennium is 1000. Millennia is plural.

Thought you were talking about the former. A typo doesn't change English though, lmfao. Centuries means more than one, so two or three.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You're doing that thing again where you waste two hours of my time debating a meaningless and inaccurate point, so I recommend you stop.

BioWare constantly refers to things from the last 1300 years as occurring "millennia ago". I think we can see the pattern. And yes, more than a hundred years could be 130 or 150.

Either way, I've already made my point.

Centuries means multiple hundred years.

You literally haven't made one point this entire convo.

Darish Vol.

Just like millennia means several thousand years, yet BioWare uses it to refer to things happening in the last 1300. It'd be a double standard to not apply that to "centuries".

My points were that Revan's influencing the Emperor to seek peace with the Republic was an accumulative effect that paid off after the Dread Masters were imprisoned. Likewise, Revan's ability to influence the Emperor came not through outright mental war, but subtle influence in critical moments of distraction. That's supported by fact, and you even agreed with me on the former.

The idea that the Dread Masters' presence changes that is pure speculation on your part. We know that they weren't prying into Revan's mind all the time, so yes, the whole "influence during moments of distraction" thing stands.

If Revan knew about the Eternal Empire he would have told the Strike Team about it on Yavin. He clearly had no idea.

And yeah, Revan taking advantage of moments when Vitiate was focusing on other things (probably Zakuul) doesn't remotely suggest they were comparable. Revan had nothing else to do but fight Vitiate's mind, while Vitiate was juggling a lot of balls at once.