Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

NOTE: This is a debate agreed upon by both participants.

Revan as of The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan.

Darth Vader as of Episode VI: Return of the Jedi.

- Starting distance: Ten meters apart

- Battlefield: 350 by 350 meter open field

- Areas of note: Two random fifty ton boulders

Please do not partake in the actual discussion if you aren't The Ellimist.

Comments about the discussion are fine, but stay on topic and be nice.

Interesting....very interesting indeed.

Genuinely looking forward to this. Two of the sharpest debaters here.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/fad5dea6521a4f6090daeb8d21314d63/tumblr_o6ni32KWDK1s2wio8o1_1280.gif

Is this Legends or Composite Vader?

Good question. This is Legends Darth Vader.

Another question. How are you going to determine the winner of this debate?

That's something The Ellimist and I would have to discuss privately before the debate closes.

And who is making the opening post?

Whoever decides to, really. I can't do it tonight, but tomorrow I can if The Ellimist hasn't yet.

"I've been looking forward to this."- Count Dooku 2005

Interesting, looking forward to some lucid points from Ellm.

At last, a genuine debate about Vader vs Revan. The last one never even started (looking at you, Deronn)

Glad to see that some are trying to revert this forum back to what it was meant for.

I'm #TeamVader although I currently believe Revan is the stronger of the two. Hopefully, this debate will change my mind.

Originally posted by Kurk
Glad to see that some are trying to revert this forum back to what it was meant for.

This place has never been better.

Yeah, I've seen with my own eyes the forgotten place where Gideon aka Tempest argued that the ancients > Sheev.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm #TeamVader although I currently believe Revan is the stronger of the two. Hopefully, this debate will change my mind.

I feel the same.

Such a civilized thread. Rarely seen around here.

Like you tbh?



Cool sig, btw Colonel.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm #TeamVader although I currently believe Revan is the stronger of the two. Hopefully, this debate will change my mind. Nooo! Ant and I need more Revan loyalists.

Don't you worry, child. I am objective. I'm not swayed by personal preferences.

Originally posted by Kurk
Glad to see that some are trying to revert this forum back to what it was meant for. Let's not make a habit of it.

Originally posted by Petrus
Don't you worry, child. I am objective. I'm not swayed by personal preferences.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm #TeamVader although I currently believe Revan is the stronger of the two. Hopefully, this debate will change my mind. You shitty little lemming worshipping Vader. Have some pride.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You shitty little lemming worshipping Vader. Have some pride.
Guys please don't ruin this thread; it's been forever since we've actually had a successful planned out debate thread.

Beg some more.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Beg some more. Please, pleaseee.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You shitty little lemming

LOL

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Beg some more. No one talks to my apprentice that way.

https://i.imgflip.com/1d456y.gif

Originally posted by Emperordmb
https://i.imgflip.com/1d456y.gif

Nb4 some Rookie kid kill you tbh

Fated go GH

What happened to Wollf vs Ant, btw?

Wollf made a thread. Ant said it was disgusting and that he would make the thread and ensure its divinity. Ant has yet to make the thread for some reason.

I'll respond tomorrow (or technically today).

Looking forward to this. Vader imo

Originally posted by Kurk
Please, pleaseee.

Learnt this from Maul?

Dunno how to feel about this. mmm

10/1 odds this debate never gets off the ground, like with the vast majority of debates ant gets into. Although if this does somehow get off the ground this could be remarkable.

Yup, looks to be another stillborn.

Do you still want to go first, or should I?

You can if you want to; if you haven't by tonight, I will.

Define "tonight."

Damn, you both having Valkorion avatars + my dyslexia making it hard to keep track or who's posting, thought Ant was talking to himself

Genuinely excited for this, hope it's not short

I'm writing my opening post now.

Revan wins.

http://android.trendolizer.com/assets_c/2015/02/457288-thumb-288xauto-394077.gif

Basically, my opener will be addressing some of Darth Vader's feats, and then countering it with Revan's.

It's not a complete analysis of Revan vs Darth Vader as you would expect in a blog analysis.

--- --- ---

Darth Vader's telekinetic handling of Starkiller, as attached *here*, is commonly cited as among his most impressive feats. Members typically take it as indication that Darth Vader is on par or superior with Starkiller, and thus can replicate all of Starkiller's feats. Thus, Starkiller's disintegration of a portion of the Salvation is commonly cited as also in Darth Vader's range of ability. However, this way of thinking is inherently flawed under the following bases:

a.) The disintegration of the Salvation is, more than likely, a representation of Starkiller's raw, potential power, and thus not indication of his combat abilities against Darth Vader.

b.) Based on the circumstances, and the lack thereof, of Darth Vader gripping Starkiller through the Force, the feat is anything but indication of telekinetic domination.

In regards to the first point, let's look at the actual text:



The relevant text is highlighted in red. As stated, the circumstances behind the feat demanded Starkiller to fully release his power. The text even states that what he is doing is similar to what he did against Palpatine, which we know was a glimpse of Oneness in which Galen Marek released all of the power within himself (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). While it's evident that Starkiller didn't push himself to the same extent, the fact he recognized he might die in the process and still didn't hesitate points to proof that he was unleashing all of his power he could without any restraint. Now note that Star Wars Insider 100 states Starkiller has the Force potential of Luke Skywalker himself. As per your own admission that Starkiller's combat-applicable powers do not come close to Luke Skywalker's, and the fact that a distinction is blatantly made between Starkiller in his fight with Darth Vader and the destruction of the Salvation, I see no grounds to really attribute the disintegration to Darth Vader in any fashion.

The distinction I mentioned is the following:

- The fight between Darth Vader and Starkiller was primarily a battle of lightsabers, not Force power, as per the text.

- Starkiller was unwilling to sacrifice his life to defeat Darth Vader, because his foremost goal was reaching and attending Eclipse.

Looking back at the cited .gif, there is no indication that Starkiller actively defended himself against Darth Vader's telekinetic grip with anything greater than a Lesser Force Shield. As described in sourcebooks, a Lesser Force Shield is a weaker version of a Force Barrier that a Force user always has defending himself. As implied by the name, the protection offered is significantly weaker than a legitimate Force Barrier, which would be a legitimate expression of the user's power.



Now, this argument is supported threefold:

a.) Starkiller's face is visibly surprised when Darth Vader lifts him.

b.) Darth Vader failed to maintain a constant telekinetic grip over Starkiller. He managed to lift him up and over his head, but the visual .gif makes clear that Starkiller breaks free and leaps down under his own free will. The fact that Darth Vader was unable to subdue or kill Starkiller when he was directly in front of him and incapacitated from the battle is blatant indication that Darth Vader was expending his power to the fullest to maintain his power over Starkiller. Thus, Starkiller breaking away in seconds rejects the notion that the feat suggests Darth Vader is more powerful than Starkiller.

c.) Similar to how Starkiller was taken off-guard by Darth Vader, the novelization paints a picture in which the reason for Darth Vader's defeat is likewise a surprise attack. Starkiller abruptly blasts him with Force lightning, in which the lightning tears through his machinery. Because of the text's lack of mention of Darth Vader shielding himself from the attack, the only defenses that Darth Vader would have had up would have been his Lesser Force Shield. Disputing his means you fully accept that Starkiller's Force lightning is capable of tearing through Darth Vader's legitimate Force barrier, which would be even worse for your cause.

Thus, Darth Vader's handling of Starkiller, while somewhat impression, is exactly like I said: "anything but indication of telekinetic domination." Darth Vader briefly overcoming Starkiller's Lesser Force Shield, only for Starkiller to then break free seconds later, is not that impressive for Darth Vader. Under the basis that a significant distinction between a Lesser Force Shield and your standard Force Barrier is established, scaling derived from Starkiller shielding himself from the immense heat earlier in the novelization is not possible. And as I also mentioned, the fact Darth Vader failed to do anything with his two seconds of glory is even more embarrassing. Now, it's also worth noting of what a Lesser Force Shield awards you. The Force Unleashed comic portrayed a battle in which Galen Marek faces off against a Shadow Guard. While Galen Marek is not yet in his prime, the fact an Shadow Guard was likewise able to telekinetically push Galen Marek further proves that a brief telekinetic manipulation of an individual who only has up a Lesser Force Shield is not a deciding factor (or anything close).



Now, let us compare Darth Vader's feat to one of Revan's greatest:



Revan's initial telekinetic domination of the strike team, in which he pulled them all to the center of the Forgotten Terrace, would have likely been merely stripping away their Lesser Force Shields (besides Satele Shan, who was shielding herself with a Force Protection Bubble). That being said, Revan next used the Force to pin the entire party against conveniently arranged pillars. Revan's command of the Force consistently and constantly kept them incapacitated for an indefinite amount of time that would have stretched on until their death if not for the intervention of the protagonist, as stated in the game. The reason why this is impressive is that the longer a Force user's power overpowers another power, the more time allowed for the latter individual to break free from the former. The only way to break free from a telekinetic grip or related energy powers, that I know of, is to unleash more power internally outward than that which is encasing you (Source: Darth Bane: Rule of Two). In the case of Darth Vader and Starkiller, Starkiller broke free in under a few seconds. In the case of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and Lana Beniko, Revan was able to simultaneously keep hold on all of them without them possibly breaking free with their own power.

Thus, I do not really see much argument on how Darth Vader's feat is the more impressive of the two. Obviously he affected a blatantly and far superior Force-user, but note he *failed* to dominate Starkiller (or come close). Revan, in contrast, successfully dominated the three individuals, all of whom are also impressive Force-users, with Darth Marr and Satele Shan being some of the greatest in the era. Darth Vader has never shown the ability or power to do what Revan has accomplished, whereas a mere Shadow Guard is already coming in the same ballpark to what Darth Vader has done. In a confrontation between Darth Vader and Revan, Revan's feat is proof that Revan can use the Force in the midst of combat to fully bring his power to bare to an extent that we have not seen Darth Vader express against other Force-users. Darth Vader's, in comparison, merely tells us he might be able to briefly lift up a powerful Force-user in the air for two seconds. Darth Vader cannot seize advantage of the situation while doing so - he can merely do the feat. And since Revan's superior Force senses and Battle Precognition will likely allow him to anticipate Darth Vader's attacks to a greater degree than Starkiller, I don't even see Darth Vader doing that to him.

--- --- ---

(Cont.) Now, let's discuss the mighty cathedral feat, which is probably Darth Vader's most famous accomplishment.

As it stands, I cannot find any quote that states Darth Vader brought down the entire cathedral. I'm inclined to believe that such is something commonly accepted without any legitimate backing. Likewise, note that, based on the comic's portray of the feat, the action was an attempted suicide. As referred to in the Starkiller instance, such a feat is typically anything but indication of powers Darth Vader can unleash in battle.

Now, I'd like to reintroduce Thana Vesh. As a child, Thana Vesh was capable of destroying an entire city block in Dromund Kaas, as per her codex entry. Note that, due to the nature of Kaas City, the city block may have contained entire skyscrapers. After the feat, she honed her skills for decades, becoming a Sith Lord. Despite this, the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox were capable of killing her mid-way through their career. And also despite such, Revan showcased vastly greater abilities than the protagonists. So, the comparison made here is between Revan being head-over-heels greater than someone who can destroy city blocks as a child, and Darth Vader destroying an unknown amount of a cathedral while attempting suicide. Well, it's not really a comparison, because Revan's blatantly the better off here.

--- --- ---

While on the subject of Darth Vader and the Lost Command, it's worth noting of how easily Saro managed to influence Darth Vader telepathically. While it is true that this was done over twenty years before Darth Vader's prime, there is little indication that Darth Vader's ability to resist illusions reached such an extent that he would be able to, say, easily cast away Saro's apparition of Padme. After all, I don't recall any mental resistance feats for Darth Vader, even despite the opportunity being presented when Palpatine lashed out against him across the galaxy. In regards to Darth Vader vs Revan, Revan has shown the ability to telepathically influence Vitiate, forcing him to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant. The relevance of this feat would be Vitiate's superiority to the Dread Masters. The Dread Masters were capable of overcoming the Phobis devices, which were capable of driving every other Sith who studied it insane. These devices are beyond scientific understanding for both the Republic and the Empire alike. Here's a quote concerning them:



Now, note that Vitiate's will was capable of keeping the Dread Masters in check for centuries. Vitiate was also deemed vastly greater than the Dread Masters - a statement that I recall you taking to heart. Thus, Revan influencing Vitiate, who has solidified himself as not only a master telepath but having an nearly unwavering will, is indication that he can likewise affect Darth Vader. After all, refer to Saro. And frankly, Darth Vader has not shown anything to suggest he could handle Revan's telepathic probes or attacks (note that Revan had also drained knowledge from a species declared immune to the Force: the Rakata). In a fight between the two, Revan could easily teleport to the other side of the battlefield and unleash his telepathic and illusionary powers against Darth Vader. Again note that Revan studied a planet-size archive of Sith knowledge on Malachor V, and likewise studied artifacts and teachings found on Korriban and Yavin IV. Darth Bane remarked how Revan knew spells that he would never dare try - spells that Revan can unleash against Darth Vader in battle, given that they are combat applicable. At the very least, Revan's extensive knowledge on Sith Sorcery is further indication in his proficiency in telepathy and Force illusions.

--- --- ---

So, as discussed in my introduction, we have:

- Revan hosting superior telekinetic abilities, as displayed by his domination of Lana Beniko, Satele Shan, and Darth Marr, and his vast superiority to Lana Vesh

- Revan wielding telepathic and illusionary abilities, such as influencing Vitiate, to levels that Darth Vader has never defended himself, which can be a deciding factor

As the debate stretches on, I plan on also discussing Revan's lightsaber abilities, teleportation, battle precognotion, and other central elements to his victory here.

I've been waiting for this.

Excellent opener, man.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Excellent opener, man.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Now, I'd like to reintroduce Thana Vesh. As a child, Thana Vesh was capable of destroying an entire city block in Dromund Kaas, as per her codex entry. Note that, due to the nature of Kaas City, the city block may have contained entire skyscrapers. After the feat, she honed her skills for decades, becoming a Sith Lord. Despite this, the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox were capable of killing her mid-way through their career. And also despite such, Revan showcased vastly greater abilities than the protagonists. So, the comparison made here is between Revan being head-over-heels greater than someone who can destroy city blocks as a child, and Darth Vader destroying an unknown amount of a cathedral while attempting suicide. Well, it's not really a comparison, because Revan's blatantly the better off here. Thank you for this

Brilliant work for a opener, Then again, of course I expected nothing less.

I'll respond by this weekend. I'm visiting home today and it would be weird for me to go on KmC.

Interesting, and excellent opener. I'll await Ell's response eagerly.

Very nice opener

That was epic NGL. So epic that Sydicate had to be hospitalized from suffering multiple hemorrhages after all the well written quips toward Starkiller.

Originally posted by TheMuser
Brilliant work for a opener, Then again, of course I expected nothing less.

Excellent

You should have chosen a worthy opponent for debate though. However, this will be fun.

Waiting with bated breath.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You should have chosen a worthy opponent for debate though.

Well neither you nor Neph were available, so he had to settle for Ellimist.

Pretty easy for Elliminist to tear that post down, despite how well crafted it was. This'll devolve into the same old stuff, I'm expecting the same counters and arguments that we'be had since those feats came into existence.

I guess we'all never get fresh debates anymore mmm

Good post though

Response forthcoming.

Where is your evidence beyond game mechanics that Revan could've just pinned the strike team indefinitely? Because from the cutscene, all we can say is that Revan was able to push them away after charging his energy, .i.e. not really any less circumstantial than Vader's choking of Starkiller.

It's especially difficult to believe that Revan was really beating them up like you claim given that even the non-Force sensitives weren't harmed by his TK, nor were any of them killed. That suggests that his Force wave wasn't even incapacitating to a regular human, .i.e. that he most likely caught them off guard, or else even a Jedi padawan should've been able to resist his attack.



Let's not try to dodge the contrast in the strength of their opponents by just saying that Revan's were also "impressive Force-users".

When have any of the strike team one-shotted hundreds of soldiers with uncharged telekinesis?

When have any of the strike team powered up ship engines with lightning?

When have any of the strike team redirected a falling star destroyer?

When have any of the strike team blown up AT-AT's with telekinesis?

But more importantly, do you see the strike team doing this even collectively? I'm guessing not, because these combatants are just somewhat weaker in their feats and accolades than Galen Marek; they're orders of magnitude weaker in what they can manipulate with the Force. There's just no comparison between ragdolling them and throwing around one of the most powerful Force users of all time.



If we're going to pick at things like that (mind you, a pre-prime Galen), we could look at Revan being unable to beat a Krayt Dragon, or struggling against Mandolorians, or him vs. Mandalore actually being a fight, etc.



No. All of this is based on the assumption that ragdolling fodder (that they're "impressive" relative to the set of all Force users ever is irrelevant) is more impressive than being stronger than a top-tier Force user, even though said fodder would collectively be unable to replicate the feats that pre-prime Galen does casually.

If you want to continue down this line of reasoning, you'd have to provide a basis for your claim that the strike team > Galen Marek/Starkiller beyond just a guess that numbers overcome quality here. I think I've demonstrated that Galen's feats are far more than six times greater than Satele's, and I see no reason to think that Revan tossing them to the ground once means anything in comparison.



Well, we'd all like evidence that Revan has better Force senses. As for battle precognition, it's difficult to demonstrate that this is going to be a significant turning point. He doesn't seem to use it against Vitiate, or against the Mandos he fights in the same novel, or...anywhere, really. There's just a source claiming that claims he knows it to an unknown extent.

-

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Now, let's discuss the mighty cathedral feat, which is probably Darth Vader's most famous accomplishment.


Not really; powerscaling from Galen Marek trumps that. I wasn't going to use it in either case. If you're trying to employ it to place a limit on Vader's abilities, well, as you know it happened faaaaar before his prime.



I would want more details. In what circumstances does she destroy a city block? How long did it take her? What technique did she use? etc.




This seems rather conveniently circular. But you dismissed your own feat quite adequately; it was way before his prime.



Lack of opportunity, but I would note that he was able to pry thoughts from RotJ Luke's mind.



Pre-prime, and regardless Palpatine is the most potent sith telepath in the mythos, given that he could enslave Byss and mind-wipe billions from seeing the Lusankya being buried.



He subtly planted thoughts into Vitiate's mind over the courses of 300 years; weren't you just talking about how some feats are combat applicable and others aren't?



So what? So the Dread Masters have better TP resistance than some unnamed sith lords, therefore Revan can TP Vader?



I think you're going down the wrong tree here. Unless if your goal is to use telepathy as a proxy for raw power, we aren't going to see Revan dominating Vader because a) he never does that, not even to the fodder strike team he faces and b) you need a vast disparity in telepathic power for that to be successful.

If you're using it as a proxy, it's a pretty poor one because it doesn't seem to correlate as well as, say, telekinesis, in which Vader's feats are clearly superior. We see people who are monstrously weaker than another still demonstrate better TP resistance, .i.e. Leia and Vader, Revan and Vitiate, etc.



Oh, come on. Lana Beniko? Darth Marr? As opposed to a guy whose Force lightning can bring down AT-ATs?



If Vader locks up Revan for 300 years then maybe this would be relevant.



OK, time for my offense.

More coming.

I think my case will be rather concise, because we both already know the evidence in question:

1. Vader's telekinesis is better, and this probably scales to most other combat-relevant applications like barrier. I am going to be powerscaling from Starkiller/Galen Marek. In comparing TK we can employ two methods:

a) Scaling from their use against combatants. In this case, Vader managing to choke and toss Galen Marek/Starkiller on multiple occasions is far more impressive than Revan being able to pin some non-Force sensitives and powerhouses like Darth Marr:

i) Galen Marek's Force feats are so much superior to the strike team's that the latter's don't seem to have the ability to redirect that star destroyer even if they all did TK on it together.

ii) Vader visibly hurts Galen, while Revan clearly doesn't hurt any of them since even the non-Force sensitives don't suffer any serious injuries from the fight.

iii) Vader does this far before his prime, while Revan does this in his.


b) Just looking at raw environmental feats. In this case, Galen Marek/Starkiller's feats clearly eclipse anything Revan has ever done.



2. Vader is almost certainly a superior duelist, which is going to be the deciding factor if Revan doesn't have a sizable Force advantage:

a) As Anakin, he was regarded by many to be a legendary prodigy duelist who was one of the best ever, the fastest, the strongest, even Dooku was amazed by his abilities. While Vader lost much of his younger self's potential, there's little reason to think he lost that innate technical skill. This is more impressive than Revan's saber accolades because they're sub B-team tier with regards to pure technical skill, tbh. We just know that he was really good; but lots of people in the PT-era were really good duelists, and out of them all Dooku was particularly impressed by Anakin's abilities.

b) Vader just has a lot more experience fighting with his blade.

c) Vader constructed his own lightsaber form that mixed elements from every style within weeks of getting put into a suit.

d) Vader almost certainly has better Force augmentation. That tends to go hand in hand with raw power, of which Vader has more of:

i) He has better TK feats
ii) He likely has more potential, which correlates with raw power, since post-suit Vader's potential was cut "in half" per Lucas, and it used to be double of Sidious's; this suggests that full-potential suit Vader = Palpatine. Revan, meanwhile, has likely achieved far more as a proportion of his potential than Vader has, and yet he still isn't on novel Vitiate's level.

e) Vader benefits from the cumulative knowledge and teachings of the "golden age" of the Jedi, which had thousands of years to develop saber techniques over Revan's era.

f) Though Vader's suit may restrict his mobility, he's already styled his form to cover for that weakness; but Revan won't be used to dealing with the mechanical strength that Vader gets on top of his Force advantage. Vader's suit is also lightsaber resistant.

--------

I should cover Revan's knowledge of sorcery; Vader knows this too, albeit not to the same degree. But it's enough to render this a moot point, because I'd invite you to come up with instances where Revan actually employ sorcery to an effective extent in a fight; it just doesn't happen. So we defer back to more conventional measures, in which Vader seems to be the clear superior.

I'll start my response now.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-

You fugging planned that didn't you.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That was epic NGL. So epic that Sydicate had to be hospitalized from suffering multiple hemorrhages after all the well written quips toward Starkiller.

It was a solid post actually. I knew he would use Starkiller in his argument as he's pretty important in establishing Vader's telekinetic ability for people who take singular versions of the video game. Just wished he would have noted that Vader's even managing to grip him momentarily in that game version was done only after he had accomplished the frigate feat, fought through the Kaminoan garrison and defeated hordes of his own clones.

That makes us believe that who is comparable? If you're referring to Revan against Galen Marek, such countermanding demonstration isn't relevant, since the disintegration of the Salvation has no connection with the telekinetic attacks released in battle against Darth Vader. As established in my opening post, the different circumstances forced Starkiller into different mental states, and thus his power was visibly affected appropriately. If you're asking about Revan vs Darth Vader, such a claim seems to come out of left-field, because you'd provided (literally) nothing in support of Darth Vader to even ask for a "countermanding demonstration of Revan's raw power."

However, since you asked, let's look at Darth Nyriss.



So, the importance of this quote is twofold:

a.) Revan, as of the Revan novelization, has fully unlocked his potential, as demonstrated by the fact he is capable of utilizing his raw power in a combat situation in which the text makes note of no unique circumstances. Thus, Revan is capable of bringing his raw power to bare against Darth Vader. The same cannot be said for Galen Marek, who can only unleash his Luke Skywalker-level potential in moments of absolute clarity or life-defying moments. This is relevant considering the following point:

b.) Revan's raw power, when applied for a fraction of a second, is greater than that of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy, who channeled her power for twenty seconds. Furthermore, Revan's fraction of a second power is capable of instantly disintegrating the Sith Lord in question. Despite being in a wealth of combat situations, neither Darth Vader nor Starkiller has ever displayed the ability to disintegrate a powerful Force-sensitive in combat. Thus, I ask you on what basis should we believe that Darth Vader, a shadow of this former self, has greater raw power than Revan, considering Revan has a blatantly greater demonstration of raw power.



The quote provided does not contradict the following assessments:

a.) Darth Vader merely overpowered Starkiller's Lesser Force Barrier, which is stated to be "not particularly strong" and demonstrably such.

b.) Starkiller broke free from Darth Vader's grip in under a few seconds, thus demonstrating his ability to overpower Darth Vader's energy with that of his own.

Again, simply refer to the actual feat, in which Starkiller visibly breaks free and leaps down on his own free will.

In the following .gif you provided, note that not only did Starkiller break free from Darth Vader's telekinetic hold, but he likewise then Force pushed Darth Vader.



That's an extremely relevant factor. And to answer your question: no, he cannot.

Starkiller has consistently shown the ability to break free from Darth Vader's feeble attempts.



Under the basis you state that Darth Vader is within the margin of error with Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II, you immediately concede that Darth Vader's displays against Starkiller in the game are not that of telekinetic domination. That being said, the main quote that states Darth Vader increased substantially in power over the course of the Original Trilogy is from Fightsaber. The quote is contradicted by The Force Unleashed II, because it states that they are "shadows of their former selves" under the basis that they have not fought in many years. Considering that Darth Vader fought Starkiller only a year prior to his confrontation with Ben Kenobi, the quote is retconned by a higher and newer source. Next, the Fightsaber quote stating that Darth Vader "grew more formidable" since the Battle of Yavin is specifically referring to "greater mastery over himself and over the Force" and the fact that "he has advanced his lightsaber technique." Note that neither statement has anything to do with Force power, which is what is relevant against Starkiller. Thus, all we have is sourcebooks stating that Darth Vader is more powerful following the Battle of Yavin IV, which frankly might not even be referring to Force power, and then Darth Vader stating that he is more powerful now than he ever was in Return of the Jedi. Note that the power increase here does not allow not demand that Darth Vader even be "substantially" more powerful than Starkiller, let alone to the degree of telekinetic domination.



Well for one, "there might have been thousands of them" is the textbook example of an exasperated hyperbole, so I see no reason to believe there were even hundreds. Second, note that the guardians were "held together" by Paratus' command of the Force. Thus, Galen Marek releasing a blast greater than that of Paratus' hold should just render the "soldiers" as mere pieces of metal. So, while this feat is impressive, let's not act like it's anything unprecedented.



No, that never happened in your quote.

The quote you provided has Galen Marek nudging one Tie-Fighter into another, not catching multiple fighters. The distinction is significant.



No, that never happened in your quote.

The text specifically states that the AT-ST had just been blown up by "fuel tanks and exploded ammunition stores," and thus his telekinesis did not encounter any "serious resistance."



No, that never happened. in your quote.

Galen Marek exploded "the charges" found in the AT-ST's "munitions bay." This was done by "rigging a simple mechanical switch," in which he then "triggered telekinetically."

So, really, all three feats you mentioned are not true. That being said, Revan has done the following:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4595313-2577311994-ywMG6.gif

It's Revan's classic telekinesis feat, really. In it, Revan brings down forty asteroids, accelerating them at a speed in which they pulverize on impact. Now, the typical rebuttal to this is that it's merely game mechanics and they they didn't actually disintegrate. However, those who have this argument have no proof that this is the reasoning of why the asteroids blew up in pieces, and thus it's nothing more than a baseless assumption. In contrast, the Assault of Tython flashpoint blatantly shows lasting animation for rocks falling on the ground, as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A15hGwOLMX0&t=30m03s. Thus, it is established that the animation exists if the makers wished to portray the rocks as simply landing there, but instead they opted for a unique animation that shows the rocks blow up. Note that over the course of the years, instead of changing the animation to that of the Assault of Tython, they have only further improved the animation of the rock disintegration. In other words, the feat is real, and dismissing it as game mechanics is not legitimate considering it's featured in a canonical source. A direct quote from a canonical authority would be required for the feat to be dismissed, which you don't have.

Now, I'd be interested if Starkiller has showed the ability to do that, in which case he hasn't.



It's only hard to penetrate a "Lesser Force Shield" in the sense that it's hard to catch someone off-guard, not that dominating it is difficult. After all, the barrier is explicitly "not particularly strong." In the instance with Skywalker vs Kenobi, they actively defended against all of the other's attacks, thus why neither pushed them into the lava. It's an incredible display of focus and mastery. Again, a Shadow Guard was capable of overcoming pre-prime Galen Marek's Lesser Force Shield. Also, instinctual or last-second Force barriers, which the Darth Bane trilogy is famous for, is different than Lesser Force Shields. Starkiller can't claim the former because he was visibly surprised following the initial energy grasp and nothing stated he used such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtXtOuxBuvQ

"Evidence beyond game mechanics" is not demanded because the feat is canonical. It's featured in a canonical source, after all. Absolutely nothing states that the feat is non-canon, especially considering the fight has story significance. That being said, the official game description of Revan's power states that it is "destroying all" and that "the strike team is being slowly destroyed." Thus, the strike team would have been pinned indefinitely until they were killed.



Revan's telekinetic push of the strike team, as displayed at the start of the battle, and his telekinetic domination of the strike team, as displayed during the middle of the battle, are completely different events.



The Hero of Tython was visibly injured by Revan's telekinetic attack and struggled to stand. Likewise, the non-Force sensitives are typically equipped with energy defenses, shield generators, and heavy armor. They're blatantly well more equipped than your "average human," and frankly moreso than some of the Force-sensitives present. That being said, the strike team would have been completely killed if not for them being freed, so making the argument that Revan couldn't kill them is false. Revan opted to "destroy" the team "slowly" once he had them incapacitated, rather than instantly kill them. Revan's tactics is to blame there, not his power. Furthermore, Revan actually did kill eight non-Force sensitives during the battle, so your claim is false regardless. Even besides game mechanics, which is both legitimate and canonical, below are audible quotes by the characters during the fight with Revan. This is apart of the overall script of the mission, and thus is not limited to any anti-gameplay prejudice:



Here, we have Lana Beniko remarking how powerful Revan is, completely awed by his power. We also have Lana Beniko telling her teammates to continue fighting, making clear that there resolve is wavering under his power.



Next, we have Darth Marr likewise remarking that Revan is strong in the Force. This is relevant considering how rare it is for an opponent to praise another in the midst of combat. Darth Marr is clearly taken aback by Revan's power.



Satele Shan is calling out, seemingly to the Force itself, for additional strength. The next line makes it clear she's having difficulty even talking, and like Lana Beniko, is encouraging the strike team to push forward through Revan's power.



Finally we have Shae Vizla. The above quote makes blatantly obvious that Revan gave the strike team a legitimate and true fight, with Vizla even remarking how "tough" he is when fighting over half-a-dozen of the galaxy's finest. So really, the script is consistent with the gameplay mechanics that Revan posed an immense threat to the strike team. The strike team was in awe over Revan's power and had to encourage its members to continue fighting. Thus, your arguments attempting to diminish Revan's accomplishments are blatantly false.



You're severely underestimating the strike team.

Darth Marr: To truly appreciate Darth Marr's abilities, let's look at Teneb Kel. He was capable of accomplishing the following: https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/feat10.jpg. Now, note that terentatek are stated to be a match for an entire squad of Jedi and are resistant to the Force. Despite this, Teneb Kel (aka. Darth Thanaton) destroyed him anyway. With Kel's prodigious power being established, Darth Marr had the power to destroy Teneb Kel with lightning, as shown here: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4431403-darth+marr+lightning.png. This is more impressive than bringing down a disabled AT-ST with lightning. It's a blatant and direct display of formidable power.

Darth Marr also absolutely humiliated Darth Lachris in combat. He was capable of moving so fast that it appeared he teleported. His telekinesis and lightning were likewise able to instantly dominate her. Now, note that Darth Lachris was capable of contending with Act II Barsen'thor in combat. Refer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5gUAMn2Qmc&t=2m00s, in which Darth Lachris' lightning is visibly pressing the Barsen'thor.



Now, compare the contest to this, in which Lachris' entire Force storm could only get a twitch from Darth Marr's leg. Remember that the Barsen'thor has performed the following feats before or around her fight with Darth Lachris: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif and http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4500220-0378116447-mGRd9.gif. All-in-all, between Darth Marr is blatantly an immensely powerful Force-user, capable of dominating Darth Lachris and Teneb Kel, both with impressive feats in their own right, with ease. Just as you asked rhetorical questions to me, I ask the following:

When has Galen Marek one-shot a Sith Lord who can one-shot a ternetatek?

When has Galen Marek one-shot a Sith Lord who can press the Rakatan-wall busting Barsen'thor?

Satele Shan: My argument for this is two-fold. First, Satele Shan showed the ability to absorb a lightsaber with her bare hands. For some reason members like to act like this isn't impressive, but it's blatantly immensely impressive. After all, it's stating that it's "virtually impossible" to absorb Force lightning with tutaminis, in which only "the most powerful Jedi" can do so. Now, considering absorbing a lightsaber is even more unprecedented, this is a blatant demonstration of substantial power. Secondly, an unnamed Jedi Knight was capable of bringing down two buildings with the Force, while in the midst of combat, without any noted difficulty. Now, note that prior to the Galactic War, Satele Shan was the foremost Jedi warrior of her time. Thus, it seems apparent that she can, likewise, display a similar, if not substantially greater feat. And now, bringing down two buildings is far more impressive than bringing down a disabled and damaged AT-ST.

Lana Beniko: While the following feat was done a decade after the Shadow of Revan expansion, I still feel it's impressive enough to cite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCSdUgGlgQ&t=13m39s. Here we see Lana Beniko throwing back four Force-sensitive Zakuul Knights. Additional feats from Lana Beniko include killing numerous Revanites with lightning, having "lightning-fast" speed, dismantling Imperial soldiers with ease, etc. Point is, while she's not incredibly powerful, she's greater than your average Sith Lord.

Before I move on, to address the Star Destroyer thing, it can't be attributed to something with Darth Vader's capabilities in a combat situation. Why? Because Galen Marek was visibly affecting it for a great deal of time. As stated in The Jedi Path, almost anything is accomplishable given enough concentration, dedication, and time. The point of combat is to see what you can unleash in a fraction of a second, not over a long period of time. Every additional second added to a feat makes it less and less usable for an actual fight. If a Force-user channels his power for sixty seconds, that's really over sixty times what their combat-applicable power is going to demonstrate. In the case of Galen Marek and the Star Destroyer feat, the same applies.

Now, considering the feats these three bring to the table individually, consider what they can do united. Likewise note that Satele Shan provided Battle Meditation, which would have allowed the team to work in near-perfect coordination with one-another. So, considering they have performed feats that Darth Vader nor Starkiller hasn't displayed alone, united they are definitely a very powerful trio. Note that they don't have to be more powerful than Starkiller for my point to hold value. They just have to be powerful enough that Revan dominating all three of them simultaneously to the point where they are absolutely incapacitated is greater than Darth Vader choking Starkiller for two seconds before breaking free. As DarkDefender stated, Starkiller had just disintegrated a portion of the Salvation and fought through an army of also his clones and Darth Vader beforehand, so he's anything but in peak condition.

I hate to break the news to you all, but they are powerful enough for the former feat to be more impressive than the latter, as established by the feats above.

Yes, we are going to "pick at things like that." I'm not sure why you thought we weren't?

Revan was "unable to beat a Krayt Dragon" during his visit to Tatooine. Now, note that Tatooine was the first world that Revan visited on his Star Forge journey. Following such, he also went to Korriban, Manaan, the Leviathan, Korriban, Lehon, and finally the Star Forge itself. Revan increased tremendously in power as he went from one place to the next. Thus, bashing Revan as of Tatooine has no relevance to this battle, since it's effectively hammering like Galen Marek when he was a child. In contrast, the Shadow Guard instance was close to the end of the game. In regards to the Mandalorians, that never happened. Revan ducking for cover isn't indication that he's struggling. Finally, Mandalore was greater than any Jedi during the era besides Revan, so I have no clue why being in a legitimate fight with Mandalore is not impressive. That being said, Mandalore was "no match" for Revan anyways, so your point is false.


Revan has shown the ability to expand his senses across the galaxy, and in which find particular individuals he never once interacted with before (i.e. Tari Darkspanner).



Please read the following:



According to the above source, a large factor in Luke Skywalker's triumph over Darth Vader (which is the context of the quote) would be predicting attacks before they happen with his standard Force-based precognition. Considering Revan Force senses are capable of stretching across the galaxy, and that Revan likewise has battle precognition, it's clear it's going to be a blatant advantage. Revan should be able to predict nearly every attack against him long before it happens. Unless you're significantly faster than Revan with a lightsaber (ex. Palpatine, Yoda, etc.), how can you hope to out-duel an opponent who is always one step ahead of you?

That being said, battle precognition wasn't that relevant in his fight with Vitiate because battle precognition has to do with physical and melee contests, not Force battles. That being said, the text made note of Revan anticipating many of Vitiate's attacks before they happened and associating gestures and movements with follow-up powers. Revan can do similar against Darth Vader, although his highly attuned senses should do the trick regardless.



False. Numerous sources state that he knows it, and they all state that he is the foremost and absolute master of it.



According to the above, a Force user can resist telekinetic attacks by sheer willpower. This ability, known as Force of Will, is stated to be a common and easy power. Now, I imagine everyone knows where I'm going with this. Revan's willpower feats in Star Wars are among the best, if not the absolute best. Revan showed the ability to resist Malachor V, Korriban, Nathema, the Star Forge, and both Vitiate and the Dread Masters for three centuries. He also managed to resurrect his corpse back from the dead, powering his body with his passion for revenge. And as per the above source, this is also translatable into an actual battle. Darth Vader will not only have to overpower Revan's Force barriers, which he hasn't displayed the ability to, but also his willpower, which he cannot accomplish by any stretch of imagination. Revan will power through any telekinetic attack that Darth Vader has to offer him without having to raise a single defense.

Now, let's paint a picture. Eight of the galaxy's greatest champions, including the Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Darth Nox, and the Emperor's Wrath, confront Revan on the Temple of Sacrifice. During the battle, Revan calls upon the font of power near him and begins to channel enough energy to destroy all life in a one kilometer radius. Before he is done, the team forces the energy to backlash into him. Instead of instantly dying, which is what should have happened, Revan rose again and continued fighting. Next, when the Machine Core was rendered unstable, in which it began to strip away Revan's "life force." After it's destruction, in which Revan was bested by the team, Revan teleported to the Forgotten Terrace. Note that throughout the battle Revan received a host of additional injures. At the Forgotten Terrace, he fought the coalition strike team. After losing, he managed to rise again shortly thereafter, ready to fight again.

To summarize the above, Revan is an absolute tank, which is consistent with the Force of Will ability cited above. Revan's body and durability is directly tied to his willpower, which is without precedent.



As I also pointed out, there's no indication his willpower increased to the degree that he could, say, easily resist Sarro's illusions.



Which has nothing to do with mental resistance. That being said, sources state that Luke Skywalker could easily resist Darth Vader's influence.



False. Revan influencing of the Treaty of Coruscant was separate from Revan's long, subtly planted thoughts. The latter was eventually overcome by Vitiate, hence the Great Galactic War. When the Sith conquered Coruscant, Revan suddenly influenced Vitiate again, forcing him to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant. It's frankly a feat teetering on mind-control. Darth Vader has never showed the ability he can come close to resisting something like this. Revan will dominate Darth Vader's mind quickly and brutally.



What a lame attempt at dismissing a feat. The Dread Masters wield greater mental resistance than any Sith who ever dared master the Phobis Devices. This is an accolade that Darth Vader cannot claim for himself. Frankly, Darth Vader cannot claim any accolade or feat involving telepathic resistance for himself. So yes, under the basis Darth Vader has shown absolutely nothing besides being humiliated by Sarro, and yet the Dread Masters are performing unprecedented feats centuries before their prime, this is extremely relevant. Thus, considering Revan can influence Vitiate, who is even greater than the Dread Masters, influencing Darth Vader will be accomplished easily.



The quote states that Skywalker's chance of being two times more powerful than the Emperor is gone, and thus he's only about eighty percent. It doesn't state that Skywalker's potential was cut in half, so this is not a legitimate arugment. Refer to my argument in the first post of this response to see why Revan's raw power is greater.



I countered everything stated here in the previous posts. To summarize the primary themes of the discussion:

- Revan's telekinetic domination of the strike team is greater than Darth Vader's against Galen Marek, as per a host of reasons cited above.

- Revan's telepathy is something that Darth Vader has not shown the ability to resist, nor can we assume he can resist with it without adequate evidence.

- Revan's lightning, which would be capable of instantly disintegrating Darth Nyriss, is beyond what Darth Vader has ever defended against in battle.

- Revan's willpower alone, which is perhaps the greatest ever, will resist any telekinetic attack Darth Vader unleashes against him.

With all of these factors combined, Revan vastly outclasses Darth Vader in a Force competition. He has more powers to call upon and is better at them.

Now, I'll respond to the lightsaber portion of the discussion, which I'll write up after I post this. Please wait until that is posted too before you make a rebuttal.

Even if it makes sense, it sounds really retarded put into a sentence.

This hobby in a nutshell tbh

Now, that opener was...

My god, hot.

Looking foward for this.

@Ant, to chip in a quip, how does your analysis of Revan's ragdolling square with your claim that he absorbed >97% of Vitiate's lightning? If defenses really worked that way, you'd expect even 0.1% of Revan's power to insta-kill all the non-Force sensitive members of the strike team and potentially everyone else too. mmm

Going into this, I know that most people here consider Darth Vader a superior duelist to Revan. Frankly, I don't understand why.

Throughout Darth Vader's entire career, here's what he has to show for himself:

- Killing a considerable amount of Jedi throughout the Great Jedi Purge, although suffering humiliating loses and injures along the way.

- Showcasing an edge over Ben Kenobi in combat, but in reality he was an inferior pure swordsman, as stated in the following scan:



- Growing in skill since his confrontation with Ben Kenobi by an unknown degree.

- Being pressed in battle against Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back, despite Luke having virtually no skill with a lightsaber blade:





- Being defeated in battle against Luke Skywalker in Revenge of the Jedi, despite Luke being less experience and rarely tested:




So really, I ask, where is this Darth Vader praise coming from? Sure, he has considerable accolades, but so does Revan.



Much of Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber technique and mastery was in his "innate technical skill." All of his reflexes, speed, and strength was ultimately rooted in Force potential unlike anything the galaxy has ever seen before. When that's stripped away, I don't see how the "innate technical skill" would continue. Darth Vader would maintain Anakin Skywalker's practiced technical skill, but the innate, rooted and dependent on his potential, would be gone. Considering that Darth Vader completely changed his style to accommodate his significant handicaps anyway, the knowledge of his former style would really only be relevant if Revan opts to use Djem So against Darth Vader.



I would actually argue that experience is one of the central factors in Revan's victory. Revan has, indisputably, fought more lightsaber-wielding foes than Darth Vader. He butchered "many" Jedi during his career as a Sith Lord, Darth Malak on his flagship, dueled Bastila Shan and Juhani on Dantooine, killed three Dark Jedi on Tatooine and Kashyyk, slaughtered an embassy of Sith on Manaan, fought through the Leviathan's entire Dark Jedi defenses, killed over two-hundred Sith on Korriban, "dozens" upon "dozens" on the Star Forge, Bastila Shan again, super-charged and "virtually unstoppable" Darth Malak, and then the Foundry and Yavin IV strike teams. I mean, there's no contest.



Revan, likewise, has a lightsaber form that mixes styles from not just all the lightsaber forms, but also Echani and Mandalorian fighting style.

I encourage all reading this thread to read (or re-read) my analysis on Revan's lightsaber abilities, which can be found by clicking *here*.



Since Revan has greater raw power over Darth Vader, as established in my posts above, he should also have superior Force augmentation. It should also be stressed that Revan has blatantly superior speed accomplishments. Perhaps Darth Vader's best is appearing to teleport in the eyes of a non-Force sensitive. Darth Marr likewise could seemingly teleport, but instead in the eyes of the power Darth Lachris. Now, note that Revan was capable of fighting Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, the Hero of Tython, Jakarro, Theron Shan, and Shae Vizla simultaneously. The level of speed demanded for that, in which explosives, blaster fire, Force attacks, and lightsaber blades would be coming from every direction, is completely beyond Darth Vader's demonstrated capabilities. And as you all know, I can provide a plethora of quotes stating that Darth Vader is actually relatively slow.



Can you further support the claim that techniques were further honed across the centuries?

Also, as I stated before, Revan benefits from the additional knowledge of the Mandalorian and Echani cultures.



Why wouldn't Revan be able to handle his mechanical strength? Revan's greater power should allow him to augment his strength beyond that of Darth Vader's robotic limbs.

--- --- ---

Now, my argument for Revan's lightsaber abilities is fivefold:

1.) Out of the gate, Darth Vader does not have superior lightsaber showings to Revan. Again, refer to the beginning of this final post, but Darth Vader's best feat is frankly being somewhat superior to Old Ben Kenobi by the time of Return of the Jedi. Considering the fact the Obi-Wan Kenobi made note of the fact he was getting rusty just two years into his exile, I can't imagine the downgrade after nearly two decades. In contrast, Revan is literally tearing apart entire armies, his offensive capabilities without flaw. Besting Darth Malak, who was labeled as "virtually unstoppable," while the Star Forge severely handicapped Revan's Force augmentation capabilities, is a testament of skill that Darth Vader has never displayed. Really, I ask the reader on how Darth Vader's performance against Galen Marek (who's best feat is, what, fighting Shaak Ti?), Obi-Wan Kenobi (decades after his prime), or Luke Skywalker (who "challenged" Darth Vader without any training) is more impressive than Revan destroying an entire of Star Forge battle droids, an entire army of Dark Jedi, Bastila Shan, an entire army of even greater Star Forge battle droids, and then finally Darth Malak. It's not!

2.) Revan's superior Force augmentation will make Darth Vader's speed and strength advantage mute. Likewise, Revan's greater experience will benefit him in the battle, as made clear by a quote mentioned above directly stating that experience and strength were the foremost edges that Darth Vader had over Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.

3.) Battle precognition will allow Revan to predict Darth Vader's moves before they happen without even needing his Force senses. With his Force senses, which can stretch across the galaxy, he's really going to know everything that's coming at him. And no, Revan knowing battle precognition is not disputable. Revan being the foremost master of it is consistently stated in a wealth of sources. And finally, it's the entire idea of battle precognition is to predict melee and physical attacks before they happen, so I have no clue how some attempt to argue that it's greatest practitioner won't be able to do it here.

4.) Teleportation. This isn't an original argument, but its completely unavoidable. Revan has shown the ability to teleport in the midst of combat, navigating through the battlefield as the strike team attacked him. If he is ever pressed by Darth Vader in combat, he can instantly teleport away to the other side of the battlefield. As Darth Vader moves across the vast distance between them, as established by the rules of the debate, Revan will have time to either batter Darth Vader with the Force or reassess his lightsaber style. Thus, Darth Vader's chances of ever striking a killing blow would be dramatically reduced. This leads me to my next point...

5.) Nothing sure of a direct decapitation can defeat Revan. His body is directly tied to his willpower, and as I established in my posts above, he can handle virtually anything. Wounds that would typically incapacitate or kill any other individual would be dismissed by Revan, who's already faced and overcame death itself. Now, considering all of the additional factors above, the chances of Darth Vader being killed are incalculably higher. Thus, Revan will be able to best Darth Vader in a lightsaber contest. Now, note that he doesn't need to anyway, since his Force powers can easily do the trick.

Damn it Ant! I had just caught up. >_<

Yet another great rebuttal from Ant.

There were a few things I take issue with but most of it is nitpicks and will likely be addressed by Ell.

Only one major issue.

The lightsaber comparison was wonderfully executed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Remember that the Barsen'thor has performed the following feats before or around her fight with Darth Lachris: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif and http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4500220-0378116447-mGRd9.gif.

I'll clarify this point if I may. Both feats take place on Taris, which is the first planet of Act I. The Barsen'thor fights Lachris at the end of Balmorra, which is the first planet in Act II. So there's over a years difference between them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Secondly, an unnamed Jedi Knight was capable of bringing down two buildings with the Force, while in the midst of combat, without any noted difficulty. Now, note that prior to the Galactic War, Satele Shan was the foremost Jedi warrior of her time. Thus, it seems apparent that she can, likewise, display a similar, if not substantially greater feat. And now, bringing down two buildings is far more impressive than bringing down a disabled and damaged AT-ST.

A better comparison can be made here, since Malgus fought that Jedi right after losing to Satele. And he notes that he can dispose of that Jedi at his whim in a number of ways. Obviously that wasn't the case with Satele, indicating that she was far more powerful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Being defeated in battle against Luke Skywalker in Revenge of the Jedi

Neph you're not supposed to interfere here. You know how many things I've wanted to point out? Let the two hash it out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Noice.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlDw3gHoSGM

Damn.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Neph you're not supposed to interfere here. You know how many things I've wanted to point out? Let the two hash it out.

You already interjected to point out that Starkiller had blown up the Salvation and fought through clones, don't be a filthy double standard doer. All I'm doing is pointing out some stuff Ant may have missed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlDw3gHoSGM I know that dear but what you may not be aware of is that the name was changed when it hit theatres. It's called this now:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/ReturnOfTheJediPoster1983.jpg



But I suppose you were just trying to be witty. Or something.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You already interjected to point out that Starkiller had blown up the Salvation and fought through clones, don't be a filthy double standard doer. All I'm doing is pointing out some stuff Ant may have missed.

Well, if pointing out something is kosher.

Ell, there's a snippet in the second mission to Raxus Prime where it unequivocally states Galen hurled back hundreds of droids with a single push. Also note that the first droid feat on Raxus Prime hurled them all out through a single opening and that continued pushing caused not only the droid parts but the surrounding debris in the room and hallway beyond were swept up into a hurricane and the side effects of such caused a groundquake.

On Nar Shaddaa he buckled a docking station with a single push and with a single sweep of his arm he cleared an army of storm troopers, walkers and uggernaught tanks.

For lightning energy calcs remember that in the comic scene he has to not only power the cannon's firing mechanism but overload it with his own energy. This was enough to pierce he hull of a Star Destoryer which may or may not have been shielded.

The freighter he powers in the first mission to Raxus Prime is too large for him to jump over or get around even with his augmented speed without taking hours.

Everybody, sshhhhhhhhhhut the **** up.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Well, if pointing out something is kosher.

Ell, there's a snippet in the second mission to Raxus Prime where it unequivocally states Galen hurled back hundreds of droids With a single push. Also note that the first droid feat on Raxus Prime hurled them all out through a single opening and that continued pushing caused not only the droid parts but the surrounding debris in the room and hallway beyond were swept up into a hurricane and the side effects of such caused a groundquake.

On Nar Shaddaa he buckled a docking station with a single push and with a single sweep of his arm he cleared an army of storm troopers, walkers and uggernaught tanks.

For lightning energy calcs remember that in the comic scene he has to not only power the cannon's firing mechanism but overload it with his own energy. This was enough to pierce he hull of a Star Destoryer which may or may not have been shielded.

The freighter he powers in the first mission to Raxus Prime is too large for him to jump over or get around even with his augmented speed without taking hours.

Don't be a prick.

Originally posted by darthbane77
sshhhhhhhhhhut the **** up.

You've no idea how closely I associate this phrase with you.

But agreed. 👍

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You've no idea how closely I associate this phrase with you.

But agreed. 👍

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be a prick.

Lets agree to let them handle the debate themselves. They're big boys.

Not seeing Neph on this list, how flagrantly biased.

In the meanwhile, can we agree that either would stomp Bane?

People need to respect that this debate is between 2 people only. So stop spamming up the thread with nonsense and let the two debaters in the OP post in peace.

Things look good so far, fantastic arguments from both sides. I'm eagerly awaiting for Ell's counter.

Bump, I really want to see where this goes....

I'm probably going to respond tonight; sorry for the delay.

Originally posted by TheMuser
Bump, I really want to see where this goes....

Indeed, this will be quite excellent I am sure.

Come on guys, get this going.

Indeed.

Don't worry, I've two exams this week.

Eh, Life comes first...but I will be sorely disappointed if this thing dies prematurely.

I hope Ellimist brings a little more passion in his losing effort to the Kelvin timeline.

So...is the debate over or something?

Elli is a dude that attends college and has a RL and stuffs. I'm pretty sure he's gonna reply soon.

He isn't me guys...lal.

As long as you guys don't bring fake physics to support your cases...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm probably going to respond tonight; sorry for the delay.
mmm

Kind of ironic for you to complain, mate.

I'll probably respond by tonight.

Where do you live? There isn't really any tonight left for us.

Interesting.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Where do you live? There isn't really any tonight left for us. he's from Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mYsG_DPVwg

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-20-2015/DSpo3C.gif

??

This thread will almost certainly be banished to graveyard of debates that will never finish.

The election sort of took up a lot of time, as did real life obligations.

I'll probably get around to it eventually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YIJQ1jgEI

Elm, Don't let Ant get a free win here over a debater of your quality.....

Muser, it's done.

Yeah, odd to just let the other guy win without even offering up a debate. Was this debate agreed upon prior to the thread ?

Yes.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes. This gives me pause for concern for my Trek/Wars thread of December.

Can the real Slim Shady please stand up?

Sweetie, I've procrastinated about a third of the time you procrastinated on Exar Kun vs. Revan, and like a tenth of the time (and counting) you procrastinated on the Caedus respect thread.

The Caedus RT isn't actually happening Ell.

I've actually made significant progress the last couple days (today included). Only a book and a half left!

Why not just post what you have and add the last book and a half in as you get around to finishing it?

You're basically done and aren't exactly foreign to updating your respect threads as you go (you've tweaked them periodically for years kiddo) *shrugs*

Ell, our battlezone is next month so I suggest updating yourself with the Trek movie Beyond because the end my dear lad is coming to your Ot trilogy. Once this starts I expect an adequate defense.

Elm, Any idea when that response will be up?

Give him some time. Some people have lives outside this place and don't have much time for WoT debates.

Originally posted by Azronger
Give him some time. Some people have lives outside this place and don't have much time for WoT debates.

EDIT: Derp, misread.

Originally posted by Azronger
Give him some time. Some people have lives outside this place and don't have much time for WoT debates.

You mean....on Comicvine?

Originally posted by Ursumeles

You mean....on Comicvine?

No, I meant real life.

RIP Debate....

Ellimist is typing it up now actually. I just discussed it with him.

Hype intensifies

Will post by Monday night.

The hype is real.

The hype is still real, just slowly getting older.

Just like these hype posts.

It is Monday night.

I live in the east of the USA and its only 6:36 where i'm at. give him some time....