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http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/4e/OodBnar.jpg

We all remember Ood right?

Well it occurred to me that it might be an idea to collate all the evidence of Luke Skywalker superiority over Exar Kun as of Dark Empire based on their respective encounters with the Jedi Master. Make of the following what you will. Credit to MythLord and Azronger, for bringing the following sources to the fore. May the light of Sheev go with you.

Establishing Contexts
Ood Bnar was an ancient and powerful Jedi master who was confronted by Kun during the Great Sith War, the Sith Lord seeking to steal the Jedi artefacts that he was protecting. Unable to defeat Kun in combat, Bnar resorted to drawing on energy deep within the planet's core, blowing Kun away with an explosion of energy and forming an impenetrable defence that his enemy could not break.

The event in question:

Part I: http://i.imgur.com/hhXMbn0.jpg
Part II: http://i.imgur.com/WHeJlOw.jpg

And some relevant supplementary material:
After which Bnar was left on the planet that shortly after was devastated by the shockwaves of a supernova, leaving the Jedi withered but still very much alive.

Thousands of years later and Bnar is encountered by Luke Skywalker, who after a scuffle with Sedriss, ends up having the Executor ensnared in his grip. Sedriss tried to kill him by channelling the energies of the charged atmosphere, seemingly unable to defeat his opponent outright as he did Kun, Bnar retaliates by engulfing (and obliterating) them both in a massive explosion of energy, drawing on the same well of power he had those centuries ago, and catching Luke and a native Force sensitive, a Shamaness named Jem, in the blast.

The event in question:

Part I: http://i.imgur.com/aXwN2ZA.jpg
Part II: http://i.imgur.com/D6YjxtO.jpg

And again, some relevant supplementary material:Now with those contexts established let's get to the meat.

The Misconception: Bnar's Powers Had Diminished
First of all to address the notion that as of Dark Empire the power of the Living Force than Bnar relied upon would've been diminished, a seemingly logical conclusion given the barren state of the world. However, it neglects to note that Bnar was drawing not from the surface of the world, but from reserves deep within the planet's core, a buried source of power that it's made clear in both instances is what he's harnessing:Nor should we assume that the planetary core was a mere vector for channelling the life energies above. This is another misconception. This itself should be obvious given that despite the planet being wiped of life, Bnar is still able to wield tremendous power, more power indeed than we see him unleash against Kun. But to reinforce the point Bnar describes this well of energy as a a " of power you cannot imagine."

Kun can certainly imagine the power that can be harnessed from the surface of a world, given he constructed the Dark Reaper for the express purpose of exploiting that energy source. Ergo we are dealing with something distinct from the life energy of the surface, and untouched for thousands of years, should have remained intact, and every bit was potent.

Exar Kun vs Executor Sedriss: Threatening Bnar
The first and most obvious comparison is between Sedriss and Kun's ability to threaten Ood. In which case Sedriss comes out on top.

For although unlike against Kun Ood did not appear to raise a barrier to defend himself, he should still have possessed the power to do so. In that respect opting for a suicidal offense (which threatened not only him, but those around him) over a comparatively safer defensive option, strongly suggests the latter was non-viable, because the energy Sedriss wielded was too powerful. In other words by drawing "dark power" from the planet's "charged atmosphere", Sedriss was able to harness energy in excess of what Kun, centuries earlier, would've have been able to muster.

This certainly isn't proof Sedriss is better than Kun altogether, as the former was amping himself through external forces, but he does appear to compare to some degree. Itself not surprising considering he had been transformed by the powers of DE Palpatine in a ritual act that was capable of causing powerful disturbances in the Force, felt across the galaxy.

Nonetheless he ultimately proved no match for of Luke, who instead overpowered him with telekinesis:
Despite Luke have been weakened after a "fierce struggle" against "nearly impossible odds":
In this respect we have a measure of proof that established Luke as having at least parity with Exar Kun if not outright superiority. When we consider for example the potential chain: Luke (=>Amped Sedriss > Kun) >> Sedriss.

Exar Kun vs Luke Skywalker: Enduring the Blast
The second comparison is directly between Luke and Kun. In which case Luke was caught in Bnar's power in a relatively similar manner to Kun, except that 1. in Luke's case the energies were more potent 2. in Luke's case he emerged better off.

First off prior to the explosion both Luke and Kun were a short distance from Bnar. Kun moving towards Bnar to strike him down, while Luke was attempting to rescue Jem:
There being little disparity between the two worth noting, as far as this comparison is concerned.

They both being blindsided and blown away by the ensuing explosion (you'll note in particular that Luke was disarmed), unleashed from the planet's core - which in Luke's case appeared much more potent:And yet in the immediate aftermath we have Kun in visible pain and struggling to get to his feet, whereas Luke was not only no worse for wear, but more importantly leaves Jem, a mere Force adept, entirely unscathed as well:
i.e. Luke absorbed the blast entirely. Something Kun was evidently unsuccessful in doing.

The fact that on top of this Luke was again in a weakened state, and of course the energies Luke was subject too were visible more potent, invalidating any mitigating circumstances (read, grasping excuses ) that might be inferable.

The Conclusion
Altogether we have a comparison that is two-fold, one pertains to Luke's offensive capabilities power-scaled through Sedriss, and one pertains to his defensive capabilities through a direct comparison between himself and Kun. In the former case, Luke, through Sedriss, demonstrated that he would likely prove a superior threat to the Jedi Master Bnar, and in the latter case, did a superior job of handling Ood's potent Force energy.

Indeed, the conclusion is as clear as it is final. DE Luke > Exar Kun.

Very nice

Yet, a weakened Kun wrecked a Luke Skywalker who, "redoubled" in power shit.

Good, goood.

A most interesting and well-formed argument.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yet, a weakened Kun wrecked a Luke Skywalker who, "redoubled" in power shit.

A "very powerful" Kun with help of your boy Kyp and a dark side amplifier, yeah. Not very compelling, unless you're AP.

Quotes make it clear Kyp's power were insignificant compared to even spirit Kun's, and that he didn't have complete access to his full capabilities while channeling it through the trainees.

This Luke wank needs to stop.

This was already debunked, thoroughly. Get with the times, Ben.

Sorry Beni, none of these comparison are particularly compelling compared to what happend in Jedi Academy. Even if Luke is Kun's equal in raw power or his better, he doesn't have the mastery to compete with him until later years.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Quotes make it clear Kyp's power were insignificant compared to even spirit Kun's, and that he didn't have complete access to his full capabilities while channeling it through the trainees.

This Luke wank needs to stop. No they don't lol. And he was very powerful all the same.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Sorry Beni, none of these comparison are particularly compelling compared to what happend in Jedi Academy. Even if Luke is Kun's equal in raw power, he doesn't have the mastery to compete with him. And your entitled to that opinion, suffice to say I disagree.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This was already debunked, thoroughly. Get with the times, Ben. Sure thing dear.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yet, a weakened Kun wrecked a Luke Skywalker who, "redoubled" in power shit.



With a technique Luke had no experience against. Kun would lose a battle of conventional powers.

Kind of sad that you wasted all this effort trying to resurrect this shit theory tbh.

This was a great analysis btw, Beni.

@Beni:

Nice rebuttal, Beni. Kyp's power was stated as "feeble", and he couldn't even penetrate the barrier put up by Corran Horn until Kun amped him. Per Horn himself, Kyp attacks were like light breezes on it's own, while, with Kun amping him, it was like gales of wind. Also the quotes make it pretty clear that Kun had access to some of his power and not all.

Keep dreaming though, boo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kind of sad that you wasted all this effort trying to resurrect this shit theory tbh. For your salty response it was worth it.

Originally posted by Azronger
With a technique Luke had no experience against. Kun would lose a battle of conventional powers.

Kun's lightning alone was doing Luke in, even before the complex sorcery was added into the equation, if I recall correctly.

We should start counting all the times Neph has been in denial. It's kinda amusing.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kun's lightning alone was doing Luke in, even before the complex sorcery was added into the equation, if I recall correctly.

Lightning, combined with exotic tentacle rape.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Beni:

Nice rebuttal, Beni. Kyp's power was stated as "feeble", and he couldn't even penetrate the barrier put up by Corran Horn until Kun amped him. Per Horn himself, Kyp attacks were like light breezes on it's own, while, with Kun amping him, it was like gales of wind. Also the quotes make it pretty clear that Kun had access to some of his power and not all.

Keep dreaming though, boo. I know exactly what your referring to dear, I've debunked it a thousand times. Now let's apply context (as well as comprehension skills.)

He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant.

Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.

So 1. What's being describes as "feeble" are Kyp's sensory powers and sensory powers alone, not overall power, or even raw power at all, and 2. this is ultimately proven feeble when Kun both bolsters and taps into his strength, or rather his latent and vast potential.

A moot point, all in all. As is any comparison between base Kyp and Kyp with his latent powers unlocked.Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kun's lightning alone was doing Luke in, even before the complex sorcery was added into the equation, if I recall correctly. *Kyp's lightning

Tentacles that his Force Barrier wasn't sufficient enough to combat, lmao.

Also, source for Kun was in "visible pain" after being knocked over? Seen as he looked to be fine in the next couple of panels and just simply walked outside to ragdoll Sylvar. Or are you simply lowaballing Kun because he was knocked over? I hope not. That could simply mean he wasn't expecting the attack. Grandmaster Luke wasn't expecting an attack from the hidden one, and was consequently knocked over.

Luke wasn't expecting that attack either, and that would be what's visibly evident. Mmm.

But of course, I never argued that Kun's injury was lasting.

The reaching clearly has no limits. lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Luke wasn't expecting that attack either, and that would be what's visibly evident. Mmm.

But of course, I never argued that Kun's injury was lasting.

You can't even proove that Kun had an injury at all. This was a terrible comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3uzKKBQ6Hw

@Beni:

1.Sensory powers is like the most basic tenant of the Force, and a clear indication of how powerful a Force user really is. There was a reason Kyp was believed to have great power after he used his sensory/precognition to pilot through the Maw under the same writer. All in all, 9 times outta 10, if something analogous to that is feeble, than your overall power is too.

2. Way to ignore my Corran argument, and the part where it was stated Kun only had access to some of his power.

Moral to the story; Kun, when channelling his power through Kyp, overall was weaker than his peak physical self. The extent of that superiority is the only thing that is debatable

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kyp's power was stated as "feeble"

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Beni:

1.Sensory powers is like the most basic tenant of the Force, and a clear indication of how powerful a Force user really is. There was a reason Kyp was believed to have great power after he used his sensory/precognition to pilot through the Maw under the same writer. All in all, 9 times outta 10, if something analogous to that is feeble, than your overall power is too.

2. Way to ignore my Corran argument, and the part where it was stated Kun only had access to some of his power. 1. Or the extent of their mastery. Regardless you missed the second more critical point, that he was unlocking Kyp's potential.

2. I covered your argument fine, but you don't appear to be grasping it.

And as for Kun only having access to some of his power, I don't recall that being anywhere stated. Only that there were some abilities or "powers" that he was not able to use.

And you continue to overlook that Kun was doing more than that, but unlocking Kyp's power as well.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You can't even proove that Kun had an injury at all. This was a terrible comparison. No your merely failing to grasp what is visually evident i.e. 1. that Kun was grimacing because he was in pain 2. that Kun was clutching a object for support because he was weakened 3. that Kun was shaking because he was weakened 4. that his Massassi b*tch was fawning over him because he was distressed over Kun's pained stated. Despite the illustrator laying these things out quite plainly.

Originally posted by Selenial

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Tentacles that his Force Barrier wasn't sufficient enough to combat, lmao.

Actually, he resisted just fine. It was the immense pain that distracted him and allowed Kun to rip his soul out of his body.

I hope the Kun fans (which I myself are a part of) realize this comparison does not lower him at all. It only raises Luke, Sedriss, and Sidious. But it does affect Kun's rank negatively.

Let us all just accept that Luke is > Exar.

Originally posted by Azronger
Actually, he resisted just fine. It was the immense pain that distracted him and allowed Kun to rip his soul out of his body.

Interesting, do you have the quote?

I have the book, but I don't feel like searching for it. xD

Also, Deronn, sensory powers aren't an indication of ones latent power in the Force, unless you think Kaox Krull, who has planetary-level sense-abilities, is > 99% of Sith.

Which I'm fine with since PoD Bane is > Him.

Originally posted by Azronger
I hope the Kun fans (which I myself are a part of) realize this comparison does not lower him at all. It only raises Luke, Sedriss, and Sidious. But it does affect Kun's rank negatively. It is for those who think he's Palpatine-tier.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No your merely failing to grasp what is visually evident i.e. 1. that Kun was grimacing because he was in pain 2. that Kun was clutching a object for support because he was weakened 3. that Kun was shaking because he was weakened 4. that his Massassi b*tch was fawning over him because he was distressed over Kun's pained stated.

Yeah, absolutely nothing in this panel indicates he was injured :

http://i.imgur.com/OPFdsEe.jpg

Where is this "grimacing in pain"?

Kun "clutching" an object for support? You mean there being a support for him to conveniently stand up, that most people injured or un-injured would use?

Where is this shaking, are you talking about the dubiously placed contoured lines that can be found everywhere else in the room

As for his Massassi , who are inclined to fawn and generally be overprotective of their master, who are also at the end of the blast, are you going to tell me that Kun is weaker than them too?



And if the writers and artists wanted to lay things out clearly, then they wouldn't have made it obvious that Kun could emerge from the fray completely unharmed within two seconds of the event.

http://i63.tinypic.com/xc8308.jpg

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Interesting, do you have the quote?

I have the book, but I don't feel like searching for it. xD

With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.

He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him - but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.

The black serpentlike tentacles of evil force struck at him again and again, filling his body with a pain like lava coursing through his veins. As he screamed, his voice was swallowed by a hurricane from the dark side.

Luke cried out one last time and crumpled backward to the blessedly cool flagstones of the Great Massassi Temple, as everything turned a smothering, final black around him....

-Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice

---

It had been a week since the trainees at the Jedi academy had found Luke Skywalker's motionless body atop the temple. They had brought him inside, done their best to care for him-but they did not know what to do. The best New Republic medics had found no physical damage. They agreed that Luke still lived, but he lay in complete stasis. He responded to none of their tests or probes.

...

Cilghal hesitated, then moved to stare down at Luke. "Master Skywalker told me I have an innate talent for healing with the Force. He had just begun to show me how to develop my skills - but I've tried all I know. He is not sick. There's nothing physically wrong with him. He seems frozen in a moment of time, as if his soul has left and his body is waiting for him to come back."

-Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Deronn, sensory powers aren't an indication of ones latent power in the Force, unless you think Kaox Krull, who has planetary-level sense-abilities, is > 99% of Sith.

Which I'm fine with since PoD Bane is > Him.

Babe, who said anything about it being an indication of latent power? I do think it, like telekinetic prowess, and to lesser extent TP, is a clear indication of ones power in the Force. Mainly because they are the most basic and important tenants a Force user possesses.

Ehh, they're some guys that can stretch out their senses across the galaxy...but as I said before, it's the case 9/10, there is always exception to rules.

Just for reference, A hindered Anakin on mustafar wasn't able to sense Obi Wan - despite developing a brotherly Force bond to the latter after years of tuelege, and that cleary reflected in their fight when they stalemated each other. So yeah, one facet of Force power is usually indicative of others, unless there is some glaring exceptions. Kyp being feeble compared to Kun just implies a rather large gap in power, as Beni would say, the writers are trying to make an indication of how much weaker Kyp is compared to Kun.

Azronger,

I think the point here is this:




That every defence application of Force defence he tried failed him, and that he was left defenceless.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Where is this "grimacing in pain"?On his face perhaps? Need I really explain point by point what a grimace looks like?

Because they are not superhuman being of tremendous strength? Kun shouldn't need support to stand lol.

Motion lines yes, that you'll see are absent from Kun in later panels, and present when Bnar is lain low by a Massassi and later begins trembling as he undergoes transformation.

Which is grounds (assuming you have examples) of them being overprotective for no reason... because?

And don't tempt me lol.

Again I the argument was never made that Kun's condition was lasting, only that he failed to emerge from the blast unscathed.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Just for reference, A hindered Anakin on mustafar wasn't able to sense Obi Wan - despite developing a brotherly Force bond to the latter after years of tuelege, and that cleary reflected in their fight when they stalemated each other. So yeah, one facet of Force power is usually indicative of others, unless there is some glaring exceptions. Kyp being feeble compared to Kun just implies a rather large gap in power, as Beni would say, the writers are trying to make an indication of how much weaker Kyp is compared to Kun. It seems you and Deronn seem insistent on circumventing the primary point, that Kun was unlocking Kyp's latent potential.

Am I to take it that is because you have no counter? Or another comprehension blunder?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Babe, who said anything about it being an indication of latent power? I do think it, like telekinetic prowess, and to lesser extent TP, is a clear indication of ones power in the Force. Mainly because they are the most basic and important tenants a Force user possesses.

Ehh, they're some guys that can stretch out their senses across the galaxy...but as I said before, it's the case 9/10, there is always exception to rules.

mmm No time to argue over trivial things such as these, so fair enough, G.

Also... I'm still waiting on that PM, hon.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
As for his Massassi bitches, who are inclined to fawn and generally be overprotective of their master, who are also at the end of the blast, are you going to tell me that Kun is weaker than them too?

Huh, this is a great point. The Massassi was hit by the attack and wasn't badly harmed. Pretty much debunks the entire theory by itself, honestly. Nice catch!

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Motion lines yes, that you'll see are absent from Kun in later panels, and present when Bnar is lain low by a Massassi and later begins trembling as he undergoes transformation.

Look a bit higher. The same "motion lines" can be seen as just part of the background. Another point debunked.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Azronger,

I think the point here is this:




That every defence application of Force defence he tried failed him, and that he was left defenceless.

As I said, he failed against the soul-ripping, but succeeded against the tendrils.

Uh, no he didn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, this is a great point. The Massassi was hit by the attack and wasn't badly harmed. Pretty much debunks the entire theory by itself, honestly. Nice catch!That doesn't function at all lol, other than to suggest the Massassi is stronger than him.

On the other hand given it was thrown in almost the opposite direction, Kun must have been down for some time. mmmOr they're are overlapping onto it.

Keep at it though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't function at all lol, other than to suggest the Massassi is stronger than him.

On the other hand given it was thrown in almost the opposite direction, Kun must have been down for some time. mmm

No, it suggests the attack wasn't particularly damaging. Cut the clown act, you can't dodge this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Or there are overlapping onto it.

Keep at it though.

What? Have you lost your senses? What do you mean overlapping? Obviously its just part of the background. Good grief, and Azdonger was accusing me of denial.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it suggests the attack wasn't particularly damaging. Cut the clown act, you can't dodge this.Because the Massassi got up well before Kun did? No that doesn't work in your favour at all.

What the word means.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because the Massassi got up well before Kun did?

What the word means.

No, because it wasn't harmed despite not possessing force defenses. So obviously the attack wasn't potent. Therefore, the most likely explanation is that Kun's own force defenses weren't brought to bare, given that he was effected the same way that a defenseless minion was. So the comparison is bunk.

Well firstly you said "there are overlapping", which doesn't make sense. And secondly I don't see a sane point you could be making here. They're not overlapping with anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, no he didn't?

Read the quotes I posted again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because it wasn't harmed despite not possessing force defenses. So obviously the attack wasn't potent. Therefore, the most likely explanation is that Kun's own force defenses weren't brought to bare, given that he was effected the same way that a defenseless minion was. So the comparison is bunk. Huh? I'm not seeing an explanation as to how the Massassi was able to recover faster than Kun. You'll have to explain.

I meant they're. My bad. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp, motion lines draw around a person are obviously going to overlap with the background around person.

Luke didn't succeed in doing anything except scream and get his ass kicked. Which he did pretty well at tbh. 8/12 performance.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Huh? You've offered zero explanation as to how the Massassi was able to recover faster than Kun. Which he was.

Why does that matter? He got caught in his dumb cape and his giant shoulderpads made standing back up difficult. Who cares.

You not actually suggesting that a random Massassi has better force defenses than Exar Kun, are you? Please tell me you are, I'd love to bust out the popcorn as we watch your credibility evaporate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I meant they're. My bad. Not sure why that's difficult to grasp, motion lines draw around a person are obviously going to overlap with the background around person.

They match the background too well to say that. There's no indication that they're motion lines, you've just been assuming that they are. If you have some proof that they aren't part of the background, I suggest you post it or move on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke didn't succeed in doing anything except scream and get his ass kicked. Which he did pretty well at tbh. 8/12 performance.

And not get disintegrated by the tendrils, lol.

Where does it say they were trying to disintegrate him and failed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why does that matter? He got caught in his dumb cape and his giant shoulderpads made standing back up difficult. Who cares.

It matters because we have a scene that doesn't make sense. Not only is Kun on the ground while the Massassi is standing, but the Massassi was thrown in the opposite direction, yet still Kun hasn't gotten up by the time he gets up and moves over to him.

Nope, I was just waiting for you to grasp the problem. The solution being either that 1. the energy Bnar unleashed was directed at Kun 2. it was simply an illustration error.

The alternative, as you've worked out, isn't particularly appealing. And only makes Kun look worse.

I'm not even sure what that is in the background so I can't agree on that, otherwise no, there are several lines that don't really need to be there. Particularly above his head and wrist.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On his face perhaps? Need I really explain point by point what a grimace looks like?

So this is your red handed evidence that Kun is injured. A fairly neutral expression masked by brow line shadow. Oh I guess, Kun must be injured in many other panels that depict this expression. You might have a point here if there was some dialogue that depicted pain, a quick grunt or exhalation of breath, but seen as those are glaringly absent, you're left clutching straws that don't exist.



Well it's pretty obvious he doesn't need any support to stand, seen as he does so in the same page within the timeframe of two seconds. On the other hand, I doubt he's going to use any measure of superhuman strength just to stand up... but that doesn't suggest he can't either. What you fail to understand is that humans evolved to be bipedal creatures, meaning he will instinctively place a hand to lift himself from a declined surface. Remember that the next time you walk up a set of stairs and instinctively, without thinking about it, place your hand on the railing. Would you be able to walk up a set of steps without it? Probably, unless I really underestimated what a fat shit you are. Lmao.



http://i64.tinypic.com/332xe9g.png

Apparently these motion-lines that only occur when someone is shaking in great pain, happen to be circling Bnar in this panel as well. He didn't concede any crippling hits here, so what's the excuse? Is Kun's mere presence enough to cause a stir? But if they aren't representing pain, what is their purpose? Are they symbolic of movement, or are they superficial details that don't represent much of anything? Probably.



I think him coming to Kun's aid, when he is obviously unharmed is a rather good example overprotectiveness.



Well your out of luck if you want to prove that these tikes are superior to their pledged leader, seen as Sylvar could oneshot several of them - including the servant in question - with her bare hands, despite being Kun's lesser in both power and augmented physical might. Maybe... this is just a bad example to compare characters, seen as everyone, including Vader, Sheev and Grandmaster Luke have been put on their asses by lesser characters more than once.



If this injury doesn't even last for five seconds, than it isn't an injury, and you might want to look up the word unscathed to understand why it applies to Kun here:

http://i67.tinypic.com/5ntb8k.png

So tell me, what is this injury Kun has received and how is it affecting him?

Originally posted by Beniboybling


It matters because we have a scene that doesn't make sense. Not only is Kun on the ground while the Massassi is standing, but the Massassi was thrown in the opposite direction, yet still Kun hasn't gotten up by the time he gets up and moves over to him.

Who gives a shit. I think you're under the impression that this is some kind of smoking gun, instead of an incredibly irrelevant nothing. He probably just landed in an awkward position, or his clothes made standing difficult, or seeing that Bnar was no longer a threat he took his time rising while his thrall rushed over to him. Who cares.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, I was just waiting for you to grasp the problem. The solution being either that 1. the energy Bnar unleashed was directed at Kun 2. it was simply an illustration error.

The alternative, as you've worked out, isn't particularly appealing. And only makes Kun look worse.

Gosh, or maybe.... just maybe..... Kun was caught by surprise by an opponent that he thought was defeated and didn't have his defenses up just like I told you the first time this shit was debunked. Whoa, mindfvck. Who could ever have thought of this super surprising solution? What a twist!

I don't understand what you mean by illustration error though? That the Massassi wasn't supposed to be hit by it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not even sure what that is in the background so I can't agree on that, otherwise no, there are several lines that don't really need to be there. Particularly above his head and wrist.

It's part of a wall or something. The lines above his head are the same as are next to the speech bubble. And the ones above his wrist are the same going up the pillar thing.

Also can I just say that its super cute that Kun's talking to the Massassi afterwards like he actually feels the need to keep it in the loop. I'm guessing its his favorite.

While a well researched blog, I don't think the parity you're trying to establish is there.

Both Kun and Luke were blatantly worse for wear following the blast.

Kun struggled to rise. Luke was laying on the ground with smoke steaming from him.

I don't know where you reached the conclusion that Kun also didn't shield himself.

To clarify further, I don't see any visible injuries from Kun.

The battle damage on his skirt was there prior to the battle.

It could also be that Ood unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss than he did against Kun.

Good work, Beni.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It could also be that Ood unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss than he did against Kun.


Which would be relevant if Kun died. So where's the comparison? That Bnar Killed Sedriss while he couldn't kill Kun? I mean, if he wanted to, he could have ended the war right there and then, he could have done it by himself but choose not too. I'm sorry but there are far better comparisons to be made and no conclusions can really be drawn from this.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Which would be relevant if Kun died. So where's the comparison? That Bnar Killed Sedriss while he couldn't kill Kun? I mean, if he wanted to, he could have ended the war right there and then, he could have done it by himself but choose not too. I'm sorry but there are far better comparisons to be made and no conclusions can really be drawn from this.

*Didn't kill Kun.
Yoda could have ended the war right there and then on Geonosis if he'd pursued Dooku instead of rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Typical Jedi ineptitude.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
*Didn't kill Kun.
Yoda could have ended the war right there and then on Geonosis if he'd pursued Dooku instead of rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Typical Jedi ineptitude.

So where are the two Jedi knights that conveniently prevent this occurence in Bnar's case? Saving two Jedi knights is much more justified than having no reason to act accordingly. In any case, for their to be a valid comparison between Kun and Sedriss, you need to also show me Kun dying; or even being injured by the big tree man in the middle of the room. Seen as you can't do that, there isn't any valid parity here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say they were trying to disintegrate him and failed?

If I punch someone deliberately, are you also going to ask me if my intent was to hurt the person I punched?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So where are the two Jedi knights that conveniently prevent this occurence in Bnar's case? Saving two Jedi knights is much more justified than having no reason to act accordingly. In any case, for their to be a valid comparison between Kun and Sedriss, you need to also show me Kun dying; or even being injured by the big tree man in the middle of the room. Seen as you can't do that, there isn't any valid parity here.

https://bigtonysfantasyleague.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/missed-the-point.png

Bnar was interested in protecting Jedi lore/lightsabers rather than striking down his adversary. For even if he smote the puny apostate, there's no evidence to suggest he could have also dealt with Kun's Massassi.

I was responding to Ant's assessment about Luke's injuries vis a vis Kun's. Bnar could havesimply unleashed a more potent attack against Sedriss, which would explain the "greater" damage to Luke, who was proximate to the attack.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So this is your red handed evidence that Kun is injured. A fairly neutral expression masked by brow line shadow. Oh I guess, Kun must be injured in many other panels that depict this expression. You might have a point here if there was some dialogue that depicted pain, a quick grunt or exhalation of breath, but seen as those are glaringly absent, you're left clutching straws that don't exist.Neutral expression? Lmao.

This is a neutral expression:

http://i.imgur.com/yPsi7Ih.jpg

This is a grimace:

http://i.imgur.com/oKNrzGt.jpg

I'll leave you to play spot the difference in your own time.

I don't tend to do that lol, unless for whatever reason, I need to. On the other hand from the perspective of a fictional work, the panel choosing to focus on Kun leaning on said object for support, certainly begs the question of why they bothered. When an upstanding position, or Kun getting up without aid, would have better reflected his supposedly "unscathed" condition.

And I think in reality your aware of that, as you continue to contrast this with later panels where Kun appears differently.

A fair example, and I won't argue that motion lines always depict trembling. However this is a cumulative argument. And within the contexts of the aforementioned pointers the intentions become increasingly obvious.

Its almost as if, when you wrote that, you didn't realise it was circular.

More to the point though, just as an overprotective mother will only rush to the aid of her child in the event he appears harmed, a Massassi with mothering instincts (still waiting for proof naturally) would only do the same if Kun appeared to the same.

In which case his primitive intelligence must be more observant than yours.

The fact that Kun was knocked on his ass is completely besides the point.

I don't know how you inferred such a time frame when none is given, but I realise you're being deliberately retarded by fixating on the word injury.

In which case no, we can be pretty sure Kun was not cut, bruised or otherwise wounded, but in the same way you might be able to walk off me doubling you over with a punch in the stomach. That I did not harm you would hardly stand up in a court of law because "hurr durr no blood and you fine now."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who gives a shit. I think you're under the impression that this is some kind of smoking gun, instead of an incredibly irrelevant nothing. He probably just landed in an awkward position, or his clothes made standing difficult, or seeing that Bnar was no longer a threat he took his time rising while his thrall rushed over to him. Who cares.Your hilarious, but no sorry, I won't be dishonestly interpret the text with such nonsense excuses.

Blah blah, even if we were to assume he didn't raise a barrier, the idea that he dropped all pretense of defense on top of that and then tripped up on his cape when attempting to stand would make Kun an even more incompetent fighter than Arcann.

Or in other words your excuses become increasingly strained.

That he didn't consider the implications of drawing the Massassi next to Kun, upstanding.

Which denote the shadow of the overhang, and the other ones are not in line with the pillar at all lol, but follow the curve of his wrist.

Probably out of respect, he is stronger than him after all. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
but in the same way you might be able to walk off me doubling you over with a punch in the stomach

I bet he'd fold like a cheap lawnchair.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
While a well researched blog, I don't think the parity you're trying to establish is there.

Both Kun and Luke were blatantly worse for wear following the blast.

Kun struggled to rise. Luke was laying on the ground with smoke steaming from him.That's not smoke but dust? Neither Luke nor Jem are visibly burned.

Not seeing where I did either.

Also in regards to Ood not killing Kun as he did Bnar, this is obviously a forced comparison considering that unlike Sedriss, Kun was not snared. It also assumes that the "dark" power Sedriss was harnessing from the charged atmosphere could be turned to defense.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your hilarious, but no sorry, I won't be dishonestly interpret the text with such nonsense excuses.

I like how there's no actual point here or any real reason to discount my explanations. Or even to offer any kind of reason of your own. It's almost as if you know this isn't going well for you and you're trying to bs your way out of making any kind of argument.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Blah blah, even if we were to assume he didn't raise a barrier, the idea that he dropped all pretense of defense on top of that and then tripped up on his cape when attempting to stand would make Kun an even more incompetent fighter than Arcann.

Or in other words your excuses become increasingly strained.

I take it this is a concession, right? No attempts to refute my point or offer an alternative? Just petty jokes?

So are we done with this thread? You ready to drop it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That he didn't consider the implications of drawing the Massassi next to Kun, upstanding.

Or maybe he didn't think Bnar was any kind of threat to Kun or the Massassi and wasn't trying to actually attack him. Y'know, like how its directly stated that he created a barrier instead of an attack like he used on Sedriss, since Bnar flat out says that he's can't hope to beat Kun?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which denote the shadow of the overhang, and the other ones are not in line with the pillar at all lol, but follow the curve of his wrist.

The lines are slanting away from the pillar before they reach Kun. That the background is identical to the lines next to Kun and a continuation of what is clearly the background, makes it impossible to suggest its denotes shaking.

Regardless, I see you've already dropped the point with Ziggy. Even if they are motion lines, all they show is, y'know, motion. Which Kun is in. There's no indication that he's shaking.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ood not killing Kun as he did Bnar

Well, I suppose this is technically correct.....

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neutral expression? Lmao.

This is a neutral expression:

http://i.imgur.com/yPsi7Ih.jpg

This is a grimace:

http://i.imgur.com/oKNrzGt.jpg

I'll leave you to play spot the difference in your own time.

Other than the overcast shadow exaggerating a brow line making his eyes disappear, there doesn't appear to be much difference. So why is the second image representing some intense physical pain that isn't suggested by any other pointers one can intensely scan the panel for? Finding an image of Kun using a different facial expression doesn't prove why he's injured in another. Otherwise I could just find an expression of him laughing in one panel to prove that he's sad in another. You need to tell me why the second face is contorted in a sufficient enough manner to represent harm done, because the expression isn't much different to the one Qel Droma wears in custody here :

http://i64.tinypic.com/sbhvmc.png

As far as I'm aware, Qel Droma wasn't suffering from injury, lasting or superficial. As I said before, you might have a point if there was some clear indication that Kun was hurt; an explained narration, perhaps a comical grunt or exhalation to show that there's clearly something wrong, but there isn't, so we can assume he's completely unscathed.



You absolutely do, but I'm unsurprised that you'd deny it right now in an attempt to regain some sort of credibility within this example. Stair railings are not just designed to support those who need it, they're designed with mother nature's decision for humans to walk upright on two legs as a trait that defines the hominid lineage, and that for us, it's pretty much instinctive to use an arm for support against an incline, when support is present at least. A person will almost always do so when falling over, even if they're a trained gymnast.



If they wanted to show Kun suffering from some injury in the perspective of a fictional work, then they had a lot more opportunities to so. They could have made him crawl around to find some leverage before hoisting himself up, rather than it conveniently being there in the first place. If his ability to walk was impaired, they shouldn't have shown him getting up without much difficulty and not showing any signs of harm in the consecutive panels - which seemingly occurs seconds after the event. This is also arguing from intent, which muddles the suspense of disbelief, and especially where the intent is not made clear in any manner.



Concession accepted



I wonder how cumulative this argument is when all the other points are just as moot.



I don't think there's much evidence to be found here. unless you argument is that Kun appeared to be harmed, but ultimately wasn't, which contradicts the original idea. In any case, the facial expression doesn't appear to represent pain and the motion lines don't represent trembling. We know that his ability to stand upright isn't impaired, nor is he suffering from an injuries; lasting seconds or otherwise. So is it a concession?



Well... seen as you can't prove that he was in harm, or even in pain, being knocked on his ass seems to be the only saving grace of this anti-kun argument. In which case, your arguing against hordes of other super strong characters that have been knocked over too, including Luke.



If we assume the events are occurring one after the other without some change scenery or some overlapping monologue from one or more characters, then the time frame is literally seconds.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Mh90Nkklx1A/TduXaGFmBII/AAAAAAAAAG4/fuzVewW9-0E/s1600/time-between-frames-full1.png



Concession accepted then. We can add not being in pain to the list of ailments Kun isn't suffering from too.



If I'm being doubled over, it either means you've winded me or caused an internal bruise. Unless it was a reflex action, in which case, i wouldn't really be suffering and it might simply look that way to an observer, and I would be fine a second later - not too different from what we're describing.



So now we're arguing the legal definition of assault to prove what? Just to clarify, you could punch me in the stomach, and even if I didn't budge a centimeter, you could still get charged with assualt. So i'm not seeing what the point is here... that Kun could claim compensation from Bnar?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I like how there's no actual point here or any real reason to discount my explanations. Or even to offer any kind of reason of your own. It's almost as if you know this isn't going well for you and you're trying to bs your way out of making any kind of argument.Oh was I supposed to take a wardrobe malfunction as a serious argument? And what awkward position would take so long for Kun to extricate himself from?

Not when the absurdity of your argument is a perfectly valid criticism. But sure, I accept your concession.

You mean where it's stated he was "driving Kun back with a blast of power" and later proclaimed that he "I have defeated Exar Kun"? Lmao. Next time read the OP.

Erm, actually they continue in a straight line beneath his arm, and you forgot about the ones above his head.

And that's not what I did dear, but I accept you agree with my conclusion nonetheless.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Other than the overcast shadow exaggerating a brow line making his eyes disappear, there doesn't appear to be much difference. So why is the second image representing some intense physical pain that isn't suggested by any other pointers one can intensely scan the panel for? Finding an image of Kun using a different facial expression doesn't prove why he's injured in another. Otherwise I could just find an expression of him laughing in one panel to prove that he's sad in another. You need to tell me why the second face is contorted in a sufficient enough manner to represent harm done, because the expression isn't much different to the one Qel Droma wears in custody here :

http://i64.tinypic.com/sbhvmc.png

As far as I'm aware, Qel Droma wasn't suffering from injury, lasting or superficial. As I said before, you might have a point if there was some clear indication that Kun was hurt; an explained narration, perhaps a comical grunt or exhalation to show that there's clearly something wrong, but there isn't, so we can assume he's completely unscathed.That's a grimace yes, well done.

Though in this instance, Kun's eyes are also closed

I don't sorry, and actually, its pretty common for people to walk up stairs without using a banister.

Because it was one panel. But despite that, he was not standing up.

And yet difficulty can be inferred.

When you fail to provide context to each one, you might erroneously conclude that. Otherwise when one grimaces, while using to support to stand up, the inference is that one is struggling to stand up. Likewise when one uses support to stand up, and does so while grimacing, the inference is the same. And when motion lines are added on top of that, the logical inference is that they are they to accentuate difficulty, not for arbitrary purposes.

If he appeared to be harmed by an observer, then that observer is picking up on all the same pointers I elucidated here, and perhaps more that could not be translated.

As to me conceding to circular logic? Fraid not.

According to what this... convenient panel? Having listened to the some audio drama I can tell you that is not the case.

Leaving lasting injury is the not the qualifier of pain lol. But naturally there is also fatigue to consider.

And in either case you might be able to walk it off, especially if you have a magic Force power that could refresh your body. mmm

That Kun failed to absorb Bnar's attack, yeah.

I thought I'd come back here, as while it was a valid attempt to lowball Kun, the amount of superficial propositions make it it a flimsy comparison; if that. Ant summarised it well, there's little parity in the examples you used and that's obvious given the petty details being squabbled over - wether Kun having a slightly disgruntled expression on his face means that he's suffering from an imagined injury. But it's really a testament to how poor some of these comparisons are when most of these accessory specifics can be debunked as well.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's a grimace yes, well done.

Though in this instance, Kun's eyes are also closed

So this is an indirect concession and admittance that a slightly cumbersome facial expression doesn't have to represent a stack of non-existent injuries? I agree, and in any case, Ulic seems to have an even more contorted expression than Kun in that picture. Really, this example is more comparable with the face we're seeing in that panel :

http://i66.tinypic.com/168ivmg.png

http://i.imgur.com/oKNrzGt.jpg

So, again, pretty much a neutral expression that isn't denoted for any woes of pain. Compare that to Kun receiving a fairly superficial scar from sylvar and the differnce manifests itself in the most most audacious way possible. There's an overflowing theme with Tales of the Jedi in that the emotions are very picturesque and distinguishable. When a character is experiencing pain, even for superficial injuries, their facial muscles will be sure to reflect that pain with vivid animation. Now you might gripe at Kun's inability to handle pain, but if anything, it's an outright testimony to how little Bnar's metamorphosis affected him; leaving him completely unharmed, so all your argument rests on this : Kun sucks because he was knocked over, like a multitude of powerhouse-characters before him.



You do, and you do it without even realising. You're lying to try and save some sort of credibility to this case; and what little there is left of it.



That is factually wrong. There are actually massive sample studies based on observations of public stairwells and escalators that prove how common people will use the handrail. Why would you make a statement like this when 99% of the time, the opposite is true?

http://www.facegarage.com/content/uploads/ytToGIF_caeaafgreg1022918.gif

Do you know why people instinctively use a support when it's there? It isn't a learned behaviour, it's because mother nature decided that after several million years of evolution, humans would eventually walk upright on two legs. The disadvantages being that we had less stability, and were easier to knock over, but could compensate by using our arms to balance ourselves. That's why as soon as someone steps on an escalator, they will put their hand on the rail, because the very first step alters the centre of gravity. Unless you want to argue that all the people above are having difficulty standing upright, needing to "clutch a support', as the exact phrasing in the previous post. The same can be observed when someone falls over - they will instinctively use their arms to right themselves, and if there's an elevated support right next them, they will lean on it. Meaning that Kun placing his hand on a piece of shattered floor is not a sign of impaired stability. Anyway, that is the in-universe explanation for why Kun, as a bipedal homo sapient, would inadvertently place his hand on a ledge to lift himself up after falling over. If you're going to scoff at the - rather valid - reason behind that explanation, and would prefer confirmation that the illustrators knew what they were getting themselves into when drawing the scene, then it would be good to educate you on the production of comics. Professional illustrators base their characters, and character movements, on humanoid archetypes, to use correct dimensions and make the chapters as natural as possible, and yes, that even includes hypersonic sword fights based around real world stances and still photographs.



So we're back to Kun sucks because he was knocked on his ass? Are you also going to revaluate your assessment of Sidious on Byss, after being knocked over by Luke?



Then why are you failing at inferring it?



Well he's neither grimacing, and he if he is doing it, it's not because he's struggling, and given that 99% of people will inadvertently use a support to stand up after being knocked over, a struggle can not be inferred on based such arbitrary details. If there was some extra narration or visible limping directly after the event, then you might have a point. But everything indicates that's he's left unharmed after the blast.



Again, this is a conceded point. The motion lines are placed in varying points of the comic to depict movement or nothing in particular. It's as moot and as tired as the rest of the comparison.



Unless he can literally sense injuries after they happen, then there's no proof that Kun is left harmed. All that can be inferred here is that Kun fell over; and his servant naturally went to him. Meaning we're back to Kun sucks because he fell over, much like Darth Vader did against Kanan and Ezra.



Seen as you can't prove Kun is suffering from neither pain or fatigue in that panel, gives us no reason o believe he is.



You don't even know wether Kun tried to erect a barrier, wether the attack even affected him at all and if it was just the flooring being destroyed underneath him that caused the topple over. All we know is that Kun was put on his as for less than a few seconds. Are you going to tell me that Vader failed to absorb Kanan and Ezra's collective Force push in Rebels because the same happened to him?

Great post.

There is no injury there. Kun's expression is an instinctive anger at being knocked over, as well as anger at his efforts being thwarted.

I would have thought that was obvious.

And there is no version of Luke that is stronger than Kun or that can deal with his Sorcery. Even Luke at his strongest and most experienced, in FOTJ, had no special way of blocking or negating Krayt's draining. And Kun is a lot better at the esoteric stuff than Krayt.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I thought I'd come back here, as while it was a valid attempt to lowball Kun, the amount of superficial propositions make it it a flimsy comparison; if that. Ant summarised it well, there's little parity in the examples you used and that's obvious given the petty details being squabbled over - wether Kun having a slightly disgruntled expression on his face means that he's suffering from an imagined injury. But it's really a testament to how poor some of these comparisons are when most of these accessory specifics can be debunked as well. Nope it's simply a case of attempting to frustrate the comparison through a retarded interpretation to the blindingly obvious.

Oh the mental gymnastics. A grimace friend, is an expression that reflects pain and/or discomfort, physical mental or otherwise, work out why Ulic might have been grimacing in his present situation in your own time. More to the point dear when I'm wearing a resting, neutral expression, I do not bare my teeth, narrow my brows and close my ****ing eyes.

So that is what I will take it to be, a grimace, notwithstanding the undetailed, contextless expression of a random background character, and the bizarre notion that if Kun is not screaming he is not in pain, lmao.

I know it must be frustrating to have your argument rely on your opponent agreeing with your pseudo-intellectual blather, but its rather amusing for me to watch you splurge.

And there it is.

But why the sudden shift to escalators? I suppose in the event that the ground beneath you is in motion and you are standing still, you might naturally use a support to steady yourself, but in terms of walking up stationary stairs, I'm still going to have to defer to personal experience. In which case no, I do not use the banister remotely 99% of the time. And in fact, neither do those walking up the escalator in your gif.

In fact to test your hypothesis I started doing so, made me feel like an old man, so is it an early onset of arthritis that leads you to defend the necessity of the banister so vehemently?

No dear, try to grasp the point. Being that despite the supposed irrelevancy of Kun using a support to stand up, the panel decided to focus on it anyway, and accentuate the action even more with motion lines, a grimace and his lackey coming over to aid him. You don't need a masterclass in illustration to understand what's being highlighted here.



See above.

See above.

He doesn't need a sixth sense to pick up on the visual pointers that Kun was worse for wear.

We know that Luke was in no better a position to do so than him, in which case at least the latter managed to hold on to his weapon.

As I reiterated to Neph its provided in the OP that Bnar was "driving Kun back with a blast of power", another comprehension fail.

Not when he shrugged it off, no.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Great post. an quality, yeah.

For the record, Sedriss as that point was also empowered by DE Sidious, it seems. And there's a quote about him apparently being able to defeat DE Luke, although I don't know how seriously I take it.

The quote says that Sedriss could have defeated Luke if it had just been them and their army of dark side elite, not just Sedriss alone.

Ah.

Anyways, he was amped by Sidious. Also, I think the fact that Luke thought of Sidious and Kun as the principally most powerful sources of the dark side that he'd ever encountered as a sign that Kun's above Sedriss. I know that's not really what you're arguing.

Yeah there should be no doubt that he is quite powerful, especially when we consider that Valkorion did to the Outlander, but no not as powerful as Kun.

Originally posted by Unbowed
There is no injury there. Kun's expression is an instinctive anger at being knocked over, as well as anger at his efforts being thwarted.

I would have thought that was obvious.

And there is no version of Luke that is stronger than Kun or that can deal with his Sorcery. Even Luke at his strongest and most experienced, in FOTJ, had no special way of blocking or negating Krayt's draining. And Kun is a lot better at the esoteric stuff than Krayt.