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While Yoda noted Sidious to be the most powerful being he ever faced...

The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side.

-RotS junior novel

...he also noted that Dooku's Force lightning was "far from easy" to deflect:

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.

Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

-AotC novelization

While Dooku's would still be a notch or two below Sidious', the implication is that their Force lightning is comparable in strength.

Interestingly enough, Dooku also deflects his own Force lightning with greater visible ease than Yoda did:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770437-0427043495-vbq5o.gif

---

As for TK, there are several quotes stating Dooku and Yoda were evenly matched:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

-Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I have seen some very casual dismissals of these quotes, but I've never heard some good arguments as to why. The only thing that's frequently brought up is Sidious choking Dooku from across the galaxy, but there're several problems with this:

1. We don't know if Dooku was caught off-guard and broken free if he tried, or if he was legitimately dominated and helpless.

2. Sidious may actually be telekinetically more powerful than Yoda, yet some just automatically assume them to be equals.

Whatever the case, the burden is on the Dooku detractors to prove these quotes are false. If Yoda could've stopped Dooku with TK, he would have, as he noted it to be a primary objective:

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

-AotC junior novel

---

Thoughts?

Well, the lightning thing might simply be cuz of Yoda's Tutaminis skills being rusty. The novel later notes that Dooku's lightning attempts are "futile" and that his second blast of lightning became "more settled in Yoda's defense". So... yeah.

As for the TK thing, it's obviously Yoda holding back(even in the movie he's just playing defensive). You can argue Dooku managed to deflect a single object thrown at him by Yoda, but then Luke deflected objects thrown at him by Vader in ESB and SotME, so I fail to see why that implies parity.

Yoda could've stopped him with TK, but PIS and the need to save Anakin and Obi-Wan outweighed that.

Yoda and Sidious are considerably ahead of Dooku, period.

Dooku looks like he had more difficulty repelling the Lightning than Yoda did, actually.

No lol.

The website (definitely) and some new fact file (apparently) have retconned Dooku's Lightning being a challenge for Yoda.

Source for the website?

Are you not a tech savvy, Beni?

Anyhow:

Dooku stopped when he heard familiar footsteps: Yoda had arrived. The Sith claimed to be more powerful than any Jedi, but Yoda easily absorbed his Force lightning attack.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/count-dooku

Lol, I was looking in the galleries. But good to know Dooku's been put in his place.

So what does that leave us with, a TK battle that never happened?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, I was looking in the galleries. But good to know Dooku's been put in his place.

So what does that leave us with, a TK battle that never happened?


Well Dooku still performed admirably in Sabers (given who his opponent was). He'll always have that much.

inb4 Yoda was holding back.

He wasn't; Dooku's just that good.

Alright, lightning's been debunked. But what about Tutaminis and Telekinesis? Dooku still deflected is own lightning with more visible ease than Yoda did, and if the quotes say they were too evenly matched in TK, I doubt Yoda could've done much with power.

Originally posted by MythLord
He wasn't; Dooku's just that good.
Interesting that Sidious, Yoda's equal, killed Kolar and Tiin before Mace could react

Originally posted by Azronger
Alright, lightning's been debunked. But what about Tutaminis and Telekinesis? Dooku still deflected is own lightning with more visible ease than Yoda did, and if the quotes say they were too evenly matched in TK, I doubt Yoda could've done much with power.

Dooku only deflected it, while Yoda caught it and sent it back, and absorbed it. Not quite the same.

Originally posted by Azronger
Alright, lightning's been debunked. But what about Tutaminis and Telekinesis? Dooku still deflected is own lightning with more visible ease than Yoda did, and if the quotes say they were too evenly matched in TK, I doubt Yoda could've done much with power.

Yoda absorbs the lightning, Dooku deflects it. One of these things is harder than the other.

The quotes saying they were "evenly matched" clearly is referring to their respective fight in AotC, where Yoda's just playing defensive. But then again, whenever two people fight and one just plays defense it'll end in a stalemate, unless the attack tires out or the defender doesn't have sufficient defense.

In this case, Dooku didn't need to waste a lot of his reserves, and Yoda had a solid defense.

Nothing in Canon though saying Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched, or that they stalemated IIRC.

Originally posted by Azronger
Alright, lightning's been debunked. But what about Tutaminis and Telekinesis? Dooku still deflected is own lightning with more visible ease than Yoda did, and if the quotes say they were too evenly matched in TK, I doubt Yoda could've done much with power. Except that statement is factually incorrect because Yoda never attacked, and Dooku never used tutanimis.

I have never understood why it's a difficult concept to grasp.

Yoda and Sidious are peers. Sidious makes Dooku look like an ant. You can reconcile Yoda not utterly demolishing Dooku because of his Jedi morals/emotional investment in his former padawan. Sidious would have no such qualms about slaughtering Dooku if needed.

Ergo, if Yoda really wanted to crumple Dooku up into a ball, he could, pretty easily.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except that statement is factually incorrect because Yoda never attacked, and Dooku never used tutanimis.




Just like the statements stating Sidious pushed Yoda's shit in. Clearly they are factually incorrect because they were both helpless at the end

Not to mention Yoda was grunting and straining so hard in that fight I thought he was going to bust a nut!

The first time I've agreed with you Azzie.

Bumping this in light of a newly-discovered quote:

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

http://imgur.com/84WNvvI (Star Wars Fact File)

So Yoda couldn't defeat Dooku with the Force. This is now fact.

"newly-discovered"

I posted that the other week. We are all aware there are quotes that state Dooku and Yoda were evenly matched, especially in Fact Files.

There's also quotes saying Dooku was blatantly outclassed and that Yoda repelled Dooku's attacks "easily," even within Fact Files.

FWI, Yoda "resorted" to his weapon since Dooku directly challenged him to a lightsaber-duel, not that he had no other options available.

Yoda visibly never attacked Dooku with the Force the entire engagement.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"newly-discovered"

I posted that the other week. We are all aware there are quotes that state Dooku and Yoda were evenly matched, especially in Fact Files.

Um, yes, it is relatively new. And no, they were not "evenly matched", at least not in any source that I am aware of.



Quotes?



The quote said he needed to resort to it. Yoda does not need to resort to his weapon if someone challenges him to a duel; he has no obligation whatsoever to do that.

The quote's as clear as day: Yoda needed to resort to his weapon because he couldn't subdue Dooku with the Force.



Doesn't contradict the quote whatsoever.

Originally posted by Azronger
And no, they were not "evenly matched"

"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

https://media.tenor.co/images/ab297913a8def775baf015ac599f0e20/tenor.gif

There's deadass a dozen of these quotes.

Also a lot saying Yoda easily repelled Dooku's attacks if you check Aurbere's respect thread.

The Dooku vs Yoda verdict is so inconsistent that using tertiary sources to make a definitive statement is the embodiment of stupidity.

I think a primary reason is that until ROTS, some authors did think it's possible that Yoda = Dooku.

ROTS completely destroyed that notion with Anakin stomping Dooku and Yoda stalemating Sidious, though.

I knew you were relatively new here, but I never realized you haven't yet realized this.

We can conclude that Yoda is indeed significantly more powerful than Dooku based on his performance with the Emperor in Episode III.

Not to mention most of the primary and secondary sources support the notion that Yoda won easily / solidly.

yoda easily repelling dooku's lighting doesn't at all have to mean yoda is vastly above dooku force wise.

Someone wanna post quotes saying yoda was much more powerful?

Coz if not, we have favctual statements satying yoda and sids were close enough he couldn't just tk him.

And sids choking dooku can easily be explained by dooku not having his guard up

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
yoda easily repelling dooku's lighting doesn't at all have to mean yoda is vastly above dooku force wise.





What else could that mean?

And why would Dooku call it a draw before Yoda even attacked him? Could it be because he didn't want to face the Wrath of Yoda's force powers after seeing how easily he dealt with Dooku's attacks?



Originally posted by Rockydonovang


And sids choking dooku can easily be explained by dooku not having his guard up


You mean it can be ignored in favour of fanboyism.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

https://media.tenor.co/images/ab297913a8def775baf015ac599f0e20/tenor.gif

Right. Let's now take a look at what the quote actually says:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Emphasis on the word "too". The inclusion of this word means that Dooku and Yoda aren't necessarily equals, just that they are comparable enough that they cannot defeat each other. Similarly, there's a quote stating Palpatine was "too powerful" for Yoda to defeat, but that doesn't mean Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda, only that Palpatine's power prevents him from being defeated. In the same vein, being "more powerful" than someone doesn't mean they are too powerful for you to handle or defeat.

But you may be wondering: If Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, then how is that he can only stalemate the latter? The answer is simple: Yoda lacks any inherently lethal Force ability. Telekinesis is not designed to kill like Force Lightning, and you can only use it effectively in combat if you powerful enough to ragdoll your foe, which, as we can conclude from these quotes, Yoda is not.

And even if it meant what you think it does (it doesn't), it wouldn't defeat my stance, since only that quote would be dismissed. All the others would remain just as valid.



By that you mean zero? There is no quote in existence that claims Yoda = Dooku in power, unless you really have one. But most likely you've just misinterpreted every single one of them. Feel free to prove me wrong though.



There's SW.com which is Canon, not Legends, and there is Dooku's own POV, which can be dismissed due to it being, well, his limited point of view, only seeming like Yoda wasn't having any difficulty on the outside, despite that not being the case at all.



It's only inconsistent in the lightsaber department, which isn't what this thread is about. All the Force quotes state the same: Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku. And even if there was inconsistency, then the latest source would simply take priority. It's that simple. There's no need to go on about egotistical rants about what's stupid and what's not.



Possible, but irrelevant, given that none of the quotes actually state that.



It didn't destroy anything since that notion was never canon.



Realized what? If this turns into another derogatory insult-fest, then you're wasting your time; I'm not listening nor do I care how many gifs you spam.



Indeed we can. The gap is significant, but not large enough to constitute a ragdoll.



In regards to lightsaber combat, yes. But that doesn't matter here.

1. That a superior force user can easily reflect your lightning? Why are we assuming easily reflecting someone's lightning means you're vastly more powerful.

2. All that means is dooku is inferior.

given that yoda didn't just subdue him outright with tk, even though that would be the easiest way to and wouldn't require hurting dooku(in fact it would be less risky then a saber duel), him not being powerful enough to outright pick him up or incap him without hurting him(like say by blasting him) makes sense.

3. It can be disregarded because there's a reasonable explanation which can easily reconcile the showing with what is said by multiple sources. And if sids could really do that outright then its dubious why yoda, a near equal/equal of sids didn't just lift or pin him which would have been a way easier and harmless way to take the count out.

People are assuming that yoda not attacking means he didn't want to attack. Its quoite possible the only way yoda could attack count was through pushes/ blasts rather than pulls or disarmament becausse of there not being that big of gap. And pushes and blasts might
a. just help dooku escape if they're too light putting him closer to his ship.
b. if they're hard enough end up hurting dooku

The above explantion is both perfectly plausible and more importantly has multiple quotes supporting it and thus has a solid basis.

It seems like a lot of people with certain personality types are going to by default hate on Dooku by default because they don't value self-discipline, hard work, and intelligence.

I'd suppose that these individuals have been wronged at some-point by a successful Dooku-like figure.

The same Fact File also says that Yoda's power in the Force is incomparable, it's inconsistent and dumb yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The same Fact File also says that Yoda's power in the Force is incomparable, it's inconsistent and dumb yeah.

If that's the case, then only said quote, not the entire source, can be dismissed as obvious hyperbole.

Originally posted by Kurk
It seems like a lot of people with certain personality types are going to by default hate on Dooku


Lol putting him below Yoda isn't hating. The good Count got solidly overpowered by Anakin in Sabers and owned by Palpatine in the Force (from another planet).

Yoda is easily equal to Anakin in Sabers and at least a near equal to Palpatine in the Force.

ILS let's go

Nah. Dooku was terrified by Sidious in DR and then he lost to Yoda on a dark side nexus. He's not on their level. But he's good enough to last for a bit, provided they don't go all out with Force attacks from the start. And that's more than you can say for most.

Assuming Sidious and Yoda don't go all out and TK him into space, the likes of Dooku can obviously contend with great difficulty in sabers. He's slower and weaker but still very skilled and experienced... don't lowball him too much

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol putting him below Yoda isn't hating. The good Count got solidly overpowered by Anakin in Sabers and owned by Palpatine in the Force (from another planet).

Yoda is easily equal to Anakin in Sabers and at least a near equal to Palpatine in the Force.
He was doing just fine until Anakin gets angry :/
Also Palpatine's force feat isn't impressive at all as Dooku obviously wasn't ready for that attack...

Originally posted by Azronger
ILS let's go Relative to Sids and Yoda, how close do you have Dooku to them? Can Dooku take a win? Go down everytime with a good fight? Avoid being ragdolled?

My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.

@az, this works for legends only
In canon/composite yoda as of rots is>yoda as of aotc

Originally posted by ILS
Relative to Sids and Yoda, how close do you have Dooku to them? Can Dooku take a win? Go down everytime with a good fight? Avoid being ragdolled?

My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.

Dooku is powerful enough not to get outright ragdolled by either, but that's about the extent of what he's able to do against them with the Force. He can survive TK but once Sidious whips out Lightning he's toast instantly.

In sabers he can last a minute, but I'm more interested in a discussion of his Force abilities. Legends only, no Canon btw.

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku is powerful enough not to get outright ragdolled by either, but that's about the extent of what he's able to do against them with the Force. He can survive TK but once Sidious whips out Lightning he's toast instantly.

In sabers he can last a minute, but I'm more interested in a discussion of his Force abilities. Legends only, no Canon btw. No canon? Butter without the toast?

I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?

How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS? Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?

Originally posted by ILS
No canon? Butter without the toast?

I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

TCW is still part of Legends so it's valid.



Yoda was stronger than Dooku was on the nexus. That's how.



Dooku's Force abilities were irrelevant against Yoda as well. Doesn't contradict the idea that the latter couldn't ragdoll him.

Yoda's powers would be useless against Anakin, too. Sidious is another story. Not sure what your point is here, though.

From the movie and the tv show I got the impression that Dooku is almost or an equal to Yoda in pure Saber skill. He is also a master of the light side and as such on par with the Masters of the council, below Yoda, sure, but which Jedi isn't. His Dark Side training began already and his progress speaks volumes of his intelligence and skills. He is no Sidious but coming to the point of casually using the force lightning is a good indicator of how competent he became. His only problem is his age. I think Sidious might have seen a potential rival in him, if not then he simply was too old to be of any long term use. Anakin was perfect and as Geog Lucas stated, would best Sidious in a fight if healthy. So if Yoda is a 20/20 in Saber and light side and Sidious is a 19/20 in Sabers and Dark Side, I would place Dooku in 19-20/18/17 in Sabers/Light/Dark.

Originally posted by Azronger
TCW is still part of Legends so it's valid.
How do you refute it?

Sidious or Yoda >>> Maul and Prime Opress

Rookie Opress and Ventress >/< Dooku, depending on who you throw slight favour to.

Originally posted by ILS
How do you refute it?

Sidious or Yoda >>> Maul and Prime Opress

Rookie Opress and Ventress >/< Dooku, depending on who you throw slight favour to.

Dooku has been stated to be far more powerful than both his apprentices, and in Y: DR he stomps Ventress by lifting a finger. The fact that they could pose a threat to the Count in all-out fight where sabers are included does not contradict the notion of Dooku somewhat standing up to Yoda in a Force only battle.

Originally posted by ILS
No canon? Butter without the toast?

Yes, people like debating different sh!t than you do. Problem?
Originally posted by ILS
I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

Yes, in an arc which had Oppress driving back Anakin and Kenobi. The latter of whom seemed to do fine destroying a supposedly superior Oppress while handling Maul. That arc also had Ventress ragdolling Anakin, how we see ragdoll her later in Season 5, and Kenobi who casually cracked her ribs earlier on, simultaneously.

Should we ignore how Dooku was beating a far superior duo to Ventress and Oppress in season 6 Anakin and Kenobi, both of whom have showcased superiority to Ventress and Oppress respectively?

Regardless, we know that Dooku is, "far too powerful" for their combined prowess per another quote from that same source, which makes me wonder which one we should take seriously
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?

Because Dooku can avoid being ragdoll fodder to Yoda without being able to beat him when amped? I'm not seeing the contradiction you're trying to force here
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS?

They were irrelevant because Dooku never had an opportunity to use them as he was being pressed in a duel. Or perhaps we try not to take figurative language literally?
Originally posted by ILS
Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?
I'd say yes, because Anakin is very much on their level as force users and in terms of bladework and hence would be able to press them in a fight making use of the force a difficult if possible task. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here though since Yoda and Sidious doing something Dooku cannot proves they are better, not that they are vastly better.

Additionally you seem to be ignoring that Anakin has a form advantage and it's noted that at tier 9 by Nick Gillard that styles make a difference. Hence why Anakin is able to outperform Yoda here. Or do you want us to conclude that Anakin>Yoda?

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku has been stated to be far more powerful than both his apprentices, and in Y: DR he stomps Ventress by lifting a finger. The fact that they could pose a threat to the Count in all-out fight where sabers are included does not contradict the notion of Dooku somewhat standing up to Yoda in a Force only battle. Individually far more powerful, sure. Together they pressed him to his limits. This is before Opress went through a lot more growth and training.

Then you take Maul and prime Opress, who, with their best efforts, couldn't peel themselves off a wall while Sidious cackled. Casually.

Sidious made easier work of a much better duo than the one which came an inch away from killing Dooku. If that doesn't scream ragdoll I don't know what does my dude.

Opress even choked Ventress and Dooku. I know they were caught off-guard and Savage was pissed, but there's no way in hell you would ever see Opress catching Sidious with that shit.

Originally posted by ILS
Individually far more powerful, sure. Together they pressed him to his limits. This is before Opress went through a lot more growth and training.

Then you take Maul and prime Opress, who, with their best efforts, couldn't peel themselves off a wall while Sidious cackled. Casually.

Sidious made easier work of a much better duo than the one which came an inch away from killing Dooku. If that doesn't scream ragdoll I don't know what does my dude.

Opress even choked Ventress and Dooku. I know they were caught off-guard and Savage was pissed, but there's no way in hell you would ever see Opress catching Sidious with that shit.

All this proves is that Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku, which I don't disagree with. I don't see how this somehow proves that he is capable of ragdolling him to the point of the Maul brothers, though. Dooku could have just as easily pinned his apprentices to the wall and held them there if he had wanted to - his handling of Savage merely days prior and his treatment of Ventress in DR is proof enough of this. It is only in an all-out fight when he is chanllenged.

Originally posted by Azronger
All this proves is that Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku, which I don't disagree with. I don't see how this somehow proves that he is capable of ragdolling him to the point of the Maul brothers, though. Combined, Maul and Opress' power exceeds Dooku's. Ergo, if Sidious can ragdoll them, he can ragdoll Dooku. At a heavily generous push, even if Dooku is more powerful than them combined, you need to remember that Sidious ragdolled them casually.

Now imagine if Sidious actually tried.

Trying Sidious >>> Effortless Sidious >>> Maul/Opress

So... I'll now ask you... is Dooku so powerful that he's not only more powerful than Maul and Opress combined, but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him? And if that is your stance, how do you substantiate it?

No doubt he'd ragdoll them one at a time. But how's he going to ragdoll them both at the same time? With them both resisting?

Originally posted by ILS
but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him?
Why are we assuming that Sidious wasn't putting serious effort into pinning them? That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Why are we assuming that Sidious wasn't putting serious effort into pinning them? That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force. Sidious showed serious effort when fighting Yoda with TK. The Maul bros showed serious effort trying to get out of Sidious' clutches.

Sidious had his hands outstretched and a smile on his face. If he was using effort there's little to indicate it. At least, he could have put far more in.

Originally posted by ILS
Sidious showed serious effort when fighting Yoda with TK. The Maul bros showed serious effort trying to get out of Sidious' clutches.

And yet the movie shows Sidious laughing his ass off when throwing the pods or when he was initially blasting Yoda with lightning.

Was Sidious not putting serious effort into fighting Yoda with the force?
Originally posted by ILS
Sidious had his hands outstretched
Well, yes, that's how you use the force.
Originally posted by ILS
and a smile on his face. If he was using effort there's little to indicate it. At least, he could have put far more in.
I recall him smiling a lot when dealing with Yoda too. Was he toying with Yoda when he fought him?

Originally posted by ILS
Combined, Maul and Opress' power exceeds Dooku's. Ergo, if Sidious can ragdoll them, he can ragdoll Dooku. At a heavily generous push, even if Dooku is more powerful than them combined, you need to remember that Sidious ragdolled them casually.

Now imagine if Sidious actually tried.

Trying Sidious >>> Effortless Sidious >>> Maul/Opress

So... I'll now ask you... is Dooku so powerful that he's not only more powerful than Maul and Opress combined, but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him? And if that is your stance, how do you substantiate it?

Maul + Savage > Dooku is a baseless assertion that you have not offered any proof for so far. Your entire argument relies on an unproven notion, and thus is invalid. I, on the other hand, can quite easily substantiate my stance with these:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

--Fact File



Dooku exerted so little effort when ragdolling both individually, that it's not out of the question at all to suggest he could ragdoll them at the same time. If lifting a finger to stomp Ventress is enough of a distraction for Savage to be not ragdolled, that would mean he is relative to Dooku in power, but that's simply untrue as is rather blatantly seen from their training sessions only a few days earlier, when Dooku casually ragdolled Savage with zero effort and managed to lift a dozen obelisks while Savage could only lift two with a rage amp. Putting that into raw numbers would make Dooku almost ten times stringer than Savage. Ten. That is an absolutely insane gap.

So basically, my point here is that if Dooku only requires to exert 10 % of his power to dominate either, he still has 90 % left for the other and is capable of dominating them too. So no matter which one Dooku ragdolls first, the other is still screwed.

Originally posted by Azronger
Maul + Savage > Dooku is a baseless assertion that you have not offered any proof for so far. Your entire argument relies on an unproven notion, and thus is invalid. Does it become more valid when I spell it out for you?

Maul's got plenty of great feats/accolades/hype etc. So does Opress. When an inferior duo took on Dooku, they nearly killed him. Together they outweigh Dooku.

Are these three Yoda quotes your only basis for Dooku being above the Maul bros, or do you have something else?

Your argument would fly, but Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress is a severe limiting factor. If not for that, if our only notion of Dooku's abilities was his performance against Yoda, perhaps the quotes would work for you. Then, Yoda not wrecking Dooku would make sense, because it just looks like two close competitors fighting.

When you add in the Ventress/Opress fight, and compare it to Sidious vs Maul/Opress, it shows exactly what levels these Sith are on - two very different levels. So now, we need an explanation for why Dooku did so well against Sidious' peer.

People have come up with varying reasons, like Yoda being rusty, him having time to grow before RotS, him wanting to take it easy on Dooku, him not being a vicious fighter in general (I like the latter two). For whatever reason, Yoda didn't give it 100% when he fought Dooku, he didn't even try to TK him, and it's not because he couldn't.



They were too evenly matched, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't do anything other than deflect Dooku's attacks. Yoda may have attempted to defeat Dooku, by deflecting his lightning, but that's very different from attempting to slap him into a coma with TK. He didn't do that.

Neither bested the other, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't try to best Dooku in any way other than deflecting his attacks.

He had to resort to his lightsaber, in that one instance, because, as is obvious, he wasn't willing to employ serious telekinetic force to Dooku, for whatever reason.

I get your argument. You're saying Yoda didn't attack Dooku because it wouldn't have yielded positive results. I'm saying Yoda could have, and chose not to, for whatever reason.

The quotes you've provided only work if you remove context, which is Star Wars debating in a nutshell these days. From a storytelling standpoint, from a feat standpoint... from a standpoint of sanity... I find it incredibly hard to believe that Dooku can stand up to Sidious and Yoda. You have to create an unrealistic gap between Maul and Dooku to bridge this very realistic gap between Dooku and Sidious.

Dooku's an apprentice, just like Maul. Sidious is the master. It's not just thematic, it makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku exerted so little effort when ragdolling both individually, that it's not out of the question at all to suggest he could ragdoll them at the same time. If lifting a finger to stomp Ventress is enough of a distraction for Savage to be not ragdolled, that would mean he is relative to Dooku in power, but that's simply untrue as is rather blatantly seen from their training sessions only a few days earlier, when Dooku casually ragdolled Savage with zero effort and managed to lift a dozen obelisks while Savage could only lift two with a rage amp. Putting that into raw numbers would make Dooku almost ten times stringer than Savage. Ten. That is an absolutely insane gap.

So basically, my point here is that if Dooku only requires to exert 10 % of his power to dominate either, he still has 90 % left for the other and is capable of dominating them too. So no matter which one Dooku ragdolls first, the other is still screwed. Your math seems on point. So now I need to ask:

If Dooku ragdolling Ventress is fair game for evidence, why isn't Sidious choking Dooku across the galaxy?

Originally posted by ILS
My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.
^^^^ Your stance here seems to be that Dooku can do better in sabers against Yoda than he can regarding the force.

Yet all the evidence you're using regard Dooku's performance as a duelist:
Originally posted by ILS
I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

Setting aside this is factually wrong, he did overcome them, albeit barely, and that this isn't so bad when you consider Oppress was portrayed as>Anakin and Kenobi and Ventress was potrayed as being far more powerful than both, this had nothing to do with Dooku's force abilities.

We see that Dooku can easily subdue either with the force in the same arc and starwars.com explicitly states Dooku was far more powerful than his apprentices in relation to their combined assault.

Dooku failing to subdue them with the force would come down to the duo pressing him enough in sabers that he isn't afforded the opportunity to abuse the force to a sufficient extent.


Yes, in a duel, though I'm not sure how Yoda being superior to Dooku on a nexus translates to him being a vastly superior force user.

Regardless, the force is never utilized here, so I'm wondering what your point is
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS? Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?

Since we want to take this quote literally, all it's saying is that Dooku can't utilize the force against Anakin as he's being pressed by a superior duelist. So again, I'm failing to grasp your point.

You seem to have missed that Anakin has a style edge against the good count. Significant because it's stated by Gillard that between tier 9's, it comes down to stylistic differences.

Hence why Anakin, before growing in power when turning to the darkside, is able to outperform Yoda against Dooku despite being Yoda's inferior, albeit a marginal one.




Wanna elaborate swords?

Get the **** outta my thread right now, kbro.

Originally posted by Azronger
Get the **** outta my thread right now, kbro.
Tis, a public forum I'm afraid.

So that'll have to be a no bud. Sorry

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force.


I would have thought the exact opposite. That he toyed with them with TK and FL more than in Sabers.


Edit: Anyway good debate. Carry on. Nice to see you back ILS.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I would have thought the exact opposite. That he toyed with them with TK and FL more than in Sabers.
dammit thor, forcing a page turn

ILS has got this covered

Az add him to your ignore list kek. You can read his posts without them clogging the page.

Originally posted by ILS
Az add him to your ignore list kek. You can read his posts without them clogging the page.
Ah, yes, ignore me, you're welcome to have at it responding to my counters too.

Or has veganism made you soft?

Not enough protein.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not enough protein.
Seems so

What's wrong with Veganism? It's never been veganism itself that's the problem, just the militant activists

kbro did have a point about some of the stuff I said last page, I don't think all the arguments I made are ironclad, e.g the point about Anakin. They were just general points about why I think it's obvious Dooku isn't supposed to be near Yoda - if Dooku's getting stomped by Anakin, I think it's another reason to think Yoda ragdolling Dooku is gonna be the reality. Not 100% logical proof.. just an observation. Az doesn't accept them either, hence why I'm closing in on this bit about Maul/Opress and the hologram choke. If Az, or even kbro, can get around those, I'll tip my fedora.

Originally posted by ThirdReich
What's wrong with Veganism? It's never been veganism itself that's the problem, just the militant activists

Originally posted by ILS
kbro did have a point about some of the stuff I said last page, I don't think all the arguments I made are ironclad, e.g the point about Anakin. They were just general points about why I think it's obvious Dooku isn't supposed to be near Yoda - if Dooku's getting stomped by Anakin, I think it's another reason to think Yoda ragdolling Dooku is gonna be the reality. Not 100% logical proof.. just an observation. Az doesn't accept them either, hence why I'm closing in on this bit about Maul/Opress and the hologram choke. If Az, or even kbro, can get around those, I'll tip my fedora.
I've responded to Dooku vs Oppress vs Ventress twice bro, but keep making excuses.

And I'm assuming you're referring to Stover's hyperbole as the basis of your assertion that Anakin stomped Dooku which interestingly enough remains the only source to potray the fight as one sidedly as it does and happens to be the version of the novel that most contradicts the movie's depiction.

Originally posted by ILS
Does it become more valid when I spell it out for you?

Maul's got plenty of great feats/accolades/hype etc. So does Opress. When an inferior duo took on Dooku, they nearly killed him. Together they outweigh Dooku.

Are these three Yoda quotes your only basis for Dooku being above the Maul bros, or do you have something else?

Your argument would fly, but Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress is a severe limiting factor. If not for that, if our only notion of Dooku's abilities was his performance against Yoda, perhaps the quotes would work for you. Then, Yoda not wrecking Dooku would make sense, because it just looks like two close competitors fighting.

When you add in the Ventress/Opress fight, and compare it to Sidious vs Maul/Opress, it shows exactly what levels these Sith are on - two very different levels. So now, we need an explanation for why Dooku did so well against Sidious' peer.

The issue here is that you are once again adding in sabers to the mix. In a pure Force fight, Dooku would annihilate Ventress and Savage, and you've not managed to contest that notion (so far). Them being an inferior team to Maul and Savage is not an issue against Dooku here, because the arguments you have presented so far only restrict Dooku to being the Zabrak's inferior in sabers (even that is arguable, but I'll leave it for another time), but they do not tie him down in the realm of the Force, where you already essentially conceded that Yoda not wrecking Dooku makes sense if the Ventress/Savage fight is not factored in - which it isn't as it doesn't limit Dooku as a Force user in any capacity.



This is factually false. George Lucas himself, the highest authority in Star Wars, wrote this piece of text personally:

YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA_(continuing):_The end for you, Count, this is.

--Attack of the Clones script

So Yoda went into the fight with the intended purpose of killing Dooku. If he could have crumbled Dooku into a ball with the Force like you say, he would have.

And just to make it absolutely clear, the scripts were recognized as on par with the movies in terms of canonicity back when the old system was in place. With Disney's takeover the G/T/C/S/N canon system is no longer a thing, but the scripts should remain perfectly valid Legends material nonetheless:

"The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon."

--Leland Chee



Um, no. Yoda's goal was Dooku's death. The quote states Yoda needed to use his lightsaber in his fight against Dooku despite praising his command of the Force just a sentence earlier. Therefore, Yoda could not have killed Dooku with the Force, if he needed to resort to his lightsaber.



Define "realistic" and "unrealistic". To me, the only thing in Star Wars that is unrealistic is that which is not logical. Everything that can be argued using logic is realistic, because most of the time, there is no canonical answer to these matchups, so even things like Obi-Wan vs Valkorion are realistic stances if a logical argument can be made, no matter how much autistic screeching that would cause.

However, in the case of Dooku and Maul, the former has been portrayed as superior since day one. Just compare their respective performances against Obi-Wan. Then we have additional quotes like these:

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in_Attack of the Clones.

--Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.

--Legacy of the Jedi

There was also a head-to-head article stating that Maul would be "no match" for Dooku, specifically because of the latter's Force abilities. And while, that, to my understanding, isn't canon, it still goes to show that the gap I'm creating here isn't even close to being "unrealistic" if even officially published material has Dooku as Maul's vast superior.

In addition, we have Plagueis musing Dooku would be a worthy candidate for a Sith apprentice should Sidious blow his cover, and objective quotes saying Dooku could have one day been Yoda's equal in the Force, or in other words, his potential equals Yoda's, and given how aged the Count is, he should have attained most of it by the time of his death. It makes total sense and is perfectly realistic to say he's closer to Yoda and Sidious than he is to Maul.

Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

--Insider 113

But ultimately, whether any of this makes sense to you is irrelevant, because you are just a fan, like me, and not a canonical authority. If you want to prove me wrong, you have to use logic, not claims about something being unrealistic in your personal opinion.



So your argument here is that because Ventress was Dooku's loyal apprentice, she would not try resist or fight back, which is the exact same logic I use to dismiss Sidious choking Dooku via holo. Fair enough, I would not want to employ double standards. However, fortunately for me, I do have an instance where Dooku dominates Ventress and she definitely was trying to resist:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3937447-a1rhv.gif

Again, I see no reason why Dooku wouldn't be able to dominate both Savage and Ventress at the same time.

None of this is needed:

The quotes don't apply to ROTS yoda who went through two massive confrontations in both Dark Rendevous and in the final arc of season 6 in TCW.

That Dooku can't be ragdolled by AOTC Yoda proves nothing regarding ROTS Yoda.

None of these arguments are relevant or necessary

Relativity, not parity.

I'd like to correct myself regarding the head-to-head. It does not state Maul would be "no match" but rather that it would be "no contest":

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4850263-3019879901-48478.png

Az winning here.

Interesting. I hope ILS kicks butt in his response.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Relativity, not parity.
Fair.
Only applies to aotc Yoda anyway

Originally posted by Azronger
I'd like to correct myself regarding the head-to-head. It does not state Maul would be "no match" but rather that it would be "no contest":

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4850263-3019879901-48478.png
You realize similar sources have Fisto>TPM Maul and TPM Maul>Dooku?

Are you senile? I already acknowledged it's non-canonicity.

Originally posted by Azronger
Are you senile? I already acknowledged it's non-canonicity.
Fair enough then

Will make a full response, just want to clarify something:

So you were fine with using the DR choke as evidence until the same logic worked for Sidious?...

Originally posted by ILS
Will make a full response, just want to clarify something:

So you were fine with using the DR choke as evidence until the same logic worked for Sidious?...

Yes, because the thought hadn't really crossed my mind that the same logic could be applied to Ventress/Dooku. But now that you brought it up, I'll no longer use it.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, because the thought hadn't really crossed my mind that the same logic could be applied to Ventress/Dooku. But now that you brought it up, I'll no longer use it.

So it mostly depends on whose wrinkled nuts you're guzzling at the given time.

Originally posted by ILS
Will make a full response,:



Good.. Gooooood....

Originally posted by ILS
I have never understood why it's a difficult concept to grasp.

Yoda and Sidious are peers. Sidious makes Dooku look like an ant. You can reconcile Yoda not utterly demolishing Dooku because of his Jedi morals/emotional investment in his former padawan. Sidious would have no such qualms about slaughtering Dooku if needed.

Ergo, if Yoda really wanted to crumple Dooku up into a ball, he could, pretty easily.



This guy is pretty wise.

Originally posted by ILS


So it mostly depends on whose wrinkled nuts you're guzzling at the given time.

That was fire, ngl.

Regardless, is there a reason we're still acting like what applies to AOTC Yoda applies to ROTS Yoda who both overcame his attachment to Dooku and then perfected his spirit in season 6 of TCW?

Perfected his spirit? Dead.

Lmao

Either way, it's obvious you can't remotely scale Dooku off of ROTS Yoda's showings.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That was fire, ngl.

Regardless, is there a reason we're still acting like what applies to AOTC Yoda applies to ROTS Yoda who both overcame his attachment to Dooku and then perfected his spirit in season 6 of TCW?


Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Perfected his spirit? Dead.
We know emotional confrontation leads to growth:

I wonder how you reckon this would make someone more powerful:


while reckoning that Yoda's confrontations between AOTC and ROTS wouldn't

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.

I love that you actually understand the story arc of the Jedi, most people gripe about Yoda depiction in the PT because he's so different awn he is in ESB which is actually the whole point; the Jedi had to be humbled and shaken out of their hubris by the Sith in order to be the monastic wise teachers that they were in the OT

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.
So, the Jedi choosing not to use the force for attack like soldiers, but using it only for defense and knowledge, makes them more powerful?

Loving this Dooku=<Yoda=<Sidious>>>Dooku

Primary Canonical feats(movies)>Quotes that contradict showings within primary canon.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
So, the Jedi choosing not to use the force for attack like soldiers, but using it only for defense and knowledge, makes them more powerful?


It seems so, yeah. Because they're more in tune with the Light Side of the Force, and more true to being a Jedi.

Kind of like how being more violent, having more anger and hatred would make you more powerful in the dark side and as a Sith.

Exceptional case like Mace Windu using his dark feelings as a weapon of light notwithstanding.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.

Yup. In Rebels Yoda flat out says the Jedi Order (including himself) was consumed by the Dark Side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDKMdMDPcpY

Originally posted by Azronger
The issue here is that you are once again adding in sabers to the mix. In a pure Force fight, Dooku would annihilate Ventress and Savage, and you've not managed to contest that notion (so far). Them being an inferior team to Maul and Savage is not an issue against Dooku here, because the arguments you have presented so far only restrict Dooku to being the Zabrak's inferior in sabers (even that is arguable, but I'll leave it for another time), but they do not tie him down in the realm of the Force, where you already essentially conceded that Yoda not wrecking Dooku makes sense if the Ventress/Savage fight is not factored in - which it isn't as it doesn't limit Dooku as a Force user in any capacity.He's much more powerful than them individually, but I'm not totally convinced he is so powerful he would merk them as a team. He has to split his attention between both of them, which takes a lot of brain power - as is seen during the fight, where he has to divert all his attention to Savage to use his lightning, before re-engaging Ventress.

Someone of Dooku's calibre pimp slapping two elite Force users at the same time is unprecedented, however far beyond them he may be on an individual or even collective basis. Your maths seems to make sense on paper, but does that mean in practice it's going to work out? I think there's a reason Sidious is among the only Sith who have that kind of showing. The only others were brief bursts of rage from Savage and Ventress.

As you've argued already, it only takes Dooku one finger to constrict Ventress - in fact, since you no longer believe in that showing, Dooku needs to duel and Force push her first, then ragdoll her. Equally you've suggested it took him little effort to constrain Savage.

How is it that in his many moments of respite (they engaged him one at a time for the most part) he didn't just pin them both? I'm not convinced that them having lightsabers in their hands prevented that from happening. Unlike with Yoda, Dooku would have absolutely no inhibitions from pinning them both if he could.

Anyway... I think I'm being a little generous here. Let's just go straight to the evidence and look at this practically. A Force user's command of the Force is the core factor in how the fight will play out. It factors into both TK and dueling.

In terms of both TK and dueling, there are numerous quotes suggesting that Sidious toyed with the Maul brothers (I believe you're familiar with them). So, whether they're attacking him with lightsabers or the Force, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, right?

Let's compare that to how a rookie Savage and Ventress are described as matching up to Dooku:





And there's others describing Dooku as too powerful for them to beat/was powerful enough to escape. So, from what we can tell, Dooku "barely" had "the edge" over their combined might.

Going by this description, if Dooku was faced with Darth Maul (a clearly superior combatant to Ventress) and a much more experienced and well trained Savage, his defeat would be certain.

You make the excuse that "if it was just a Force fight" - but it is a Force fight. Their command of the Force manifests not just in their TK, but in their dueling skill, and all parties here have demonstrated an interest in training their dueling skill as best as they can.

The difference between Sidious and Dooku is that, when he's fighting Maul and Savage, it doesn't matter what category we're discussing - he will dominate.

Dooku, on the other hand, would surely lose a lightsaber contest not by merit of a skill or physical deficiency (Sidious is an old midget with less lightsaber experience than Dooku), but because his command of the Force isn't greater than Maul and Savage's combined. Similarly, his command of the Force regarding TK isn't greater than their's combined, and I see no evidence to suggest as much. Whatever his power with TK is, it barely saved him from Savage and Ventress, so surely it won't save him here, let alone against Sidious.

I also believe Yoda wanted to kill Dooku... that doesn't mean he has to adhere to the most efficient method of killing him. He isn't a Sith. There are countless scenarios where party X could kill party Y using TK, but chooses to kill/maim them in a different way. This is especially characteristic of Jedi, because they aren't vicious butchers who ragdoll and rip apart their opponents with TK: they aren't even encouraged to grip their opponents with TK, only manipulate the environment around them to win, e.g throwing objects or deflecting lightning back to the sender. The most they tend to do, if they're behaving, is send a wave of Force energy at their enemy.

You're always falling into this trap of "if he could have, he would have" - but if you evaluate what is going on in the mind of the character, their values and moral codes, rather than looking at their behaviour through the lens of a battle forum scenario, you would see why not everything happens the way that'd make most practical sense.

Yoda's goal is to kill Dooku, but he's not going to Force choke/ragdoll him to do it. Again, he's not a Sith. He resorted to using his lightsaber because he wouldn't be able to defeat Dooku just by passively deflecting every Force attack that comes his way. You're assuming Yoda is willing to employ every form of brutal violence to gain victory, when really, Jedi are incredibly restrained Force users at the best of times.

I'll concede Dooku has better accolades than Maul, especially considering the ones you posted below comparing them directly. But I don't think comparing their bouts against Obi-Wan is a great comparison: Obi-Wan's style plays directly into Dooku's hands, meanwhile Soresu is your best bet for stonewalling Juyo. On the other hand, Maul's fighting style and personal attributes are far more problematic for Dooku than Obi-Wan's, due to his impressive striking power, fanatical levels of aggression, choppy, unpredictable striking patterns etc.

Anyway, whether Dooku beats Maul and by how much is one debate. You need to prove he can emphatically defeat Maul and Savage with regards to telekinesis, with such a disparity that a Sidious who, not toying around, not smiling and laughing, but really trying to kill Dooku, cannot break his Force shields and ragdoll him. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Maul was also intended to take the reigns from Sidious should he need to one day, and was a real apprentice from day one. Your quote doesn't say Dooku has equal Force potential to Yoda, it says he's universally respected and one day would have been a Master on par with Yoda... in an unknown capacity. Given the context of Dooku's description - his reputation in the Order - it seems like the quote is saying one day Dooku would have had the same respect as Yoda among the Jedi, but instead of attaining that reputation, he joined the Jedi's enemies. Similar to the quotes saying Yoda and Mace should be held in equal regard as council members.

Lol, even if we take the quote the way you want it to be taken, it's saying that because Dooku left the Jedi, he would never be on par with Yoda. Now, that's ridiculous, because when Dooku became a Sith, his power increased, he developed a wider range of combat skills, and he was freed of his Jedi restraint. Your interpretation makes no sense, because as usual, you're ignoring context.

I agree. Hence, I don't think you've got logical chops to pull this off.

Good post, I'll respond sometime soon

I've always found it funny how Dooku struggles so much against pre-prime versions of Ventress and Oppress, and then is able to perform better when facing a duo who's inferior incarnations have managed to display clear superiority to the individuals that make up the former duo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGv2NyRRlEg

It makes a little more sense though when we realize that the Oppress who Dooku faced could do this:
https://youtu.be/hxrtPnhNtZE?t=10s
And the Oppress Sidious faced could do, this:
https://youtu.be/oINgvdXXQX0?t=1m39s

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I've always found it funny how Dooku struggles so much against pre-prime versions of Ventress and Oppress, and then is able to perform better when facing a duo who's inferior incarnations have managed to display clear superiority to the individuals that make up the former duo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGv2NyRRlEg



As always Dooku's just got Obi-Wan's number. Put it down to a clash of styles. And probably also Kenobi being less effective with his Saber offensive.

Skywalker however held his own. Just as Maul held his own when Kenobi was battering Opress. Just as Mace held his own when Palpatine was blitzing 3 other Council Members.

There's only so much help you can give to your back up.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang

It makes a little more sense though when we realize that the Oppress who Dooku faced could do this:
https://youtu.be/hxrtPnhNtZE?t=10s

And the Oppress Sidious faced could do, this:
https://youtu.be/oINgvdXXQX0?t=1m39s


Opress had no room in that tight cave for a Force Wave. But against Kenobi or Skywalker the Force wave was just delaying the inevitable. In fact the Kenobi/Skywalker duo were slowly chopping Opress up as evidenced by his chopped off horn.

Also you seem to be trying to make out that Opress got weaker over time. He didn't. Dooku confirmed in "Brothers" that he's getting stronger.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
As always Dooku's just got Obi-Wan's number. Put it down to a clash of styles. And probably also Kenobi being less effective with his Saber offensive.

Sure. Though I can apply the same logic to Sidious as a physical fighter being better suited than Dooku. You also seem to be forgetting Kenobi was going on the offensive when facing Oppress and Maul as he realized he didn't have the stamina to indefinitely hold off Maul and Oppress with his Soresu.

Regardless, the flat comparison ILS is trying to draw here doesn't work because Dooku has performed far better as a duelist, and ILS is trying to use the correlation between force power and saber ability as the basis of his argument, against a far superior duo to the one he struggled with in season 3.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Skywalker however held his own.

Not very well I'm afraid.
An outline of the good Count's wreckage:

-> Skywalker is thrown back several feet in a bladelock:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=57s

-> Then he gets thrown back several feet again:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=59s

-> Anakin is then driven back:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m16s

-> Anakin is forced to cartwheel back after missing Dooku with an overhead swing:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m20s

-> Dooku physically breaches Anakin's guard kicking him against a pillar:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m23s

-> Dooku drives Anakin back despite having Anakin's master behind him:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA

-> Dooku kicks Anakin again, this tike landing a hit on Anakin's skull:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m30s

Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.

Kenobi didn't do much better though, almost getting kicked of a ledge and then being picked up and thrown the one time he tried to confront Dooku on his own.

To put it simply, Dooku performs far better against a duo who themselves utterly outclass the duo Dooku can barely beat.
Originally posted by Darth Thor

Maul did far better than Anakin did here.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just as Mace held his own when Palpatine was blitzing 3 other Council Members.

Mace being an 8 bordering 9 and Lucas's own statement on the matter ensure he can hold his own in a saber contest, but that part of the fight, where Mace is barely attacked at all doesn't really prove anything. Regardless, the gap between TCW Anakin and Kenobi is nowhere near the gap between Windu and Fisto.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's only so much help you can give to your back up.

The problem being Anakin himself was battered.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Opress had no room in that tight cave for a Force Wave. But against Kenobi or Skywalker the Force wave was just delaying the inevitable.

Both Oppress and Maul were able to stand next to each other with room to spare and they ended up fighting on separate sides of each other. Oppress had all the room he needed to use the force if he could. What you are referring to from Shadow Conspiracy, which was based off an incomplete script, blatantly contradicts the episode itself and hence can be dismissed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact the Kenobi/Skywalker duo were slowly chopping Opress up as evidenced by his chopped off horn.


Link what you're talking about? All I saw was Anakin and Kenobi being steadily driven back.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also you seem to be trying to make out that Opress got weaker over time. He didn't. Dooku confirmed in "Brothers" that he's getting stronger.
And yet after all this growth, he turns out to be little better than fodder to someone who a season later is getting outclassed by Dooku with help.

Dooku has a long track record of embarrassing Obi-Wan now, whereas he always has serious issues against Anakin once it's just them. I don't think Sidious would have serious issues against Anakin.

Sidious is so far beyond the guys we're talking about that styles don't even factor in. He just wins.

Originally posted by ILS
Dooku has a long track record of embarrassing Obi-Wan now, whereas he always has serious issues against Anakin once it's just them.

Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.
Originally posted by ILS
I don't think Sidious would have serious issues against Anakin.

I'm assuming you're talking about TCW Anakin given the notion of Sidious being far above ROTS Anakin as a swordsman is factually false. While it's true that normally TCW Anakin would be outclassed by Sidious, we have seen Dooku also outclass this version of Anakin and have also seen TCW Anakin get matched by those who Dooku himself outclasses. If Anakin taps into the darkside though, we've seen Anakin can perform on another level. While I don't doubt that Sidious would outperform Dooku against Anakin even in this state, that hardly proves that Sidious is vastly superior to Dooku.

To be clear, I don't disagree with your stance, but restricting Dooku to what we see in season 3 when we see him perform better against a greatly superior duo in season 6 isn't really the best way to argue it.

And nothing here really invalidates the notion of Dooku not being ragdoll fodder to Yoda in AOTC where multiple sources indicate that Dooku isn't ragdoll fodder to him.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.

I'm assuming you're talking about TCW Anakin given the notion of Sidious being far above ROTS Anakin as a swordsman is factually false. While it's true that normally TCW Anakin would be outclassed by Sidious, we have seen Dooku also outclass this version of Anakin and have also seen TCW Anakin get matched by those who Dooku himself outclasses. If Anakin taps into the darkside though, we've seen Anakin can perform on another level. While I don't doubt that Sidious would outperform Dooku against Anakin even in this state, that hardly proves that Sidious is vastly superior to Dooku.

To be clear, I don't disagree with your stance, but restricting Dooku to what we see in season 3 when we see him perform better against a greatly superior duo in season 6 isn't really the best way to argue it.

And nothing here really invalidates the notion of Dooku not being ragdoll fodder to Yoda in AOTC where multiple sources indicate that Dooku isn't ragdoll fodder to him.

Dooku's Oba Diah performance is a terrible outliar. A far inferior duo in Ventress+S3 Savage pressed Dooku to the point where he only held a minimal advantage, and AOTC Kenobi+AOTC Skywalker (guys vastly below their TCW S6 selves) individually gave Dooku grief (Anakin came close to winning in AOTC). Last but not least, TCW S4 Anakin, who's individually below TCW S6 Anakin by a considerable amount, briefly gained the upper hand over Dooku who only tagged Skywalker via cheap-shot.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Anakin came close to winning in AOTC). wtf no

Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no
I think he's referring to this:

Or maybe this:

Or is it this one?:

Yeah, let's look at all this quotes:


Source: Legacy of the Jedi



Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #34




Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization



Source: The New Essential Guide to Characters



Source: Insider #34 (Relaunched)

None of those sources coming close to the legitimacy of the AotC novel (bordering on G-Canon) or script (likewise), kek.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no
I'm gonna guess that Sithmaster is cherrypicking the senior novelization's depiction of the fight, which is from Kenobi's perspective, while ignoring the junior novel's depiction which was objective narration, stating Dooku toyed with Anakin, the multitude of secondary sources that say Dooku was well above Skywalker, or TCW itself where superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated/beaten by Ventress.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sure. Though I can apply the same logic to Sidious as a physical fighter being better suited than Dooku. You also seem to be forgetting Kenobi was going on the offensive when facing Oppress and Maul as he realized he didn't have the stamina to indefinitely hold off Maul and Oppress with his Soresu.


You seem to use and dismiss Shadow Conspiracy as it suits you.

There's nothing in the actual episode about Soresu not being used in his fight against Maul and Opress. In fact the fight doesn't start off with Kenobi suddenly going on the offense to catch Maul/Opress off guard. They are the ones who attack first.

And if you note carefully, apart from the odd jump at each opponent, his offensive is mainly made up of physical attacks, but in terms of Sabers, he's mostly defending himself against both opponents.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Regardless, the flat comparison ILS is trying to draw here doesn't work because Dooku has performed far better as a duelist, and ILS is trying to use the correlation between force power and saber ability as the basis of his argument, against a far superior duo to the one he struggled with in season 3.


No, he outclasses Obi-Wan. He always has, yet clearly the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan can't (or at least shouldn't) be that huge.

It's either just a clash of styles (Kenobi is forced on the offensive a lot), or Dooku simply knows how best to tackle Obi-Wan.

Put it this way, if I was to judge Maul and Dooku by their fights against Opress, then Maul would come across as the FAR superior duelist.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not very well I'm afraid.
An outline of the good Count's wreckage:

-> Skywalker is thrown back several feet in a bladelock:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=57s

-> Then he gets thrown back several feet again:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=59s

-> Anakin is then driven back:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m16s

-> Anakin is forced to cartwheel back after missing Dooku with an overhead swing:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m20s

-> Dooku physically breaches Anakin's guard kicking him against a pillar:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m23s

-> Dooku drives Anakin back despite having Anakin's master behind him:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA

-> Dooku kicks Anakin again, this tike landing a hit on Anakin's skull:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m30s

Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.


With the semi-exception of the carwheel at the end, Anakin is not once properly floored, disarmed, or in particular need of Obi-Wan to save him.

In fact Obi-Wan even sends Anakin to stop Dooku 1 on 1 right after. I doubt he would do that if he was utterly outclassed.

Just face it, Anakin does far far better against Dooku 1 on 1 (even right after that same fight). And again someone going on the defensive or being driven back by an assault doesn't mean they're outclassed.

If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.

At least Anakin actually kick dropeed Dooku right in front of him, and began choking him. Dooku gained no such advantage over Anakin in their S6 fight.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi didn't do much better though, almost getting kicked of a ledge and then being picked up and thrown the one time he tried to confront Dooku on his own.

To put it simply, Dooku performs far better against a duo who themselves utterly outclass the duo Dooku can barely beat.


Yes Kenobi's never done very well against Dooku. Everyone admits that. But he's always been on the offensive with him, and Makashi is clearly a much better form to take on Soresu than Juyo or Djem So.

Maul performs far better against Opress than Dooku does. So snap.




Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul did far better than Anakin did here.

Mace being an 8 bordering 9 and Lucas's own statement on the matter ensure he can hold his own in a saber contest, but that part of the fight, where Mace is barely attacked at all doesn't really prove anything. Regardless, the gap between TCW Anakin and Kenobi is nowhere near the gap between Windu and Fisto.

The problem being Anakin himself was battered.


Point being just because one combatant is clearly outclassed, doesn't mean you can blame his partner for that.

Funny, I don't remember seeing Anakin in any kind of pain, or seeing a single bruise on him. So that's a strange definition of battered.

If that was battered then what the heck was Dooku on Naboo?




Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Both Oppress and Maul were able to stand next to each other with room to spare and they ended up fighting on separate sides of each other. Oppress had all the room he needed to use the force if he could. What you are referring to from Shadow Conspiracy, which was based off an incomplete script, blatantly contradicts the episode itself and hence can be dismissed.



Nope. I'm referring to the environment we saw on the actual episode.

When Opress force waved Anakin and Obi-Wan there was clear space between them. He did no such thing to them when they were actually clashing Sabers.

That cave was way too tight man. You forget, Opress doesn't have the kind of TK Mastery Maul does, where he can levitate Obi-Wan. He just does massive blasts. Given Kenobi was pinned in between Maul and Opress a lot of the time, how would that even work without him hitting Maul as well?

Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Link what you're talking about? All I saw was Anakin and Kenobi being steadily driven back.


You need to be more observant. Did you never notice how at some point Opress was missing a horn?

Well let's see exactly when that happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxrtPnhNtZE


At 0:10-0:13, right as he engages the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo, Opress has all his horns.

The At 0:35, just as his duel with Anakin/Obi-Wan ends, he has a horn missing. That horn is always missing from then on out.

Yet another example of how being driven back doesn't mean you're losing. Any combatant can decide anytime that it's better to give ground and fight defensively.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And yet after all this growth, he turns out to be little better than fodder to someone who a season later is getting outclassed by Dooku with help.


Clash of styles. Maul handled Opress far easier than both Obi-Wan and Dooku.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None of those sources coming close to the legitimacy of the AotC novel (bordering on G-Canon) or script (likewise), kek. I don't say that Anakin wasn't a challenge, I say that Anakin never came close to beating him.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.





You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Dooku's performance against Anakin on Naboo.

Just because Dooku was retreating towards his ship, doesn't mean he wasn't being forced backwards. He was just falling back in the direction of his choosing. Not that it matters, because like I keep saying, being driven back does not equate to losing. However being drop kicked and getting choked out, does equate to losing.

Filoni said about that fight that he doesn't believe Palpatine would tell Dooku not to kill Anakin. Because if Anakin dies so easily, then he's simply not worthy, and Dooku's the better choice.


The DD fight, was back and forth only from what little Vos saw. Dooku's still a powerful Sith Lord and can get his licks in. Heck that even happened in ROTS. Dooku got his drop kick in before Anakin battered him.

You also seem to be forgetting TCW Movie. Right at the beginning of TCW, Anakin was already a clear challenge to Dooku. Something Ventress was never capable of being solo. So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I don't say that Anakin wasn't a challenge, I say that Anakin never came close to beating him.
Anakin wasn't a challenge, per the junior novel, objective narration opposed to the Senior novel which is from Kenobi's perspective, Dooku starts toying with him and later on in TCW, superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated by pre-prime versions of someone who Dooku sh!ts on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VB_vjVxcic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to be making a lot of excuses

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).

^ The days of thinking Ventress was on par with TCW Anakin and Obi-Wan are long gone.

Ventress is not match for them or their peers (Maul and Dooku).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just because Dooku was retreating towards his ship, doesn't mean he wasn't being forced backwards.

Substantiate that Anakin forced him back then.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was just falling back in the direction of his choosing. Not that it matters, because like I keep saying, being driven back does not equate to losing.

You're missing my point. The most significant gains Dooku made in the season 6 fight with Anakin came as a result of Dooku going on the offense. Hence here, where he's simply retreating, all Dooku can really do is bat away Anakin's powerblows.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
However being drop kicked and getting choked out, does equate to losing.

Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways multiple times.

Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.

TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Filoni said about that fight that he doesn't believe Palpatine would tell Dooku not to kill Anakin. Because if Anakin dies so easily, then he's simply not worthy, and Dooku's the better choice.

Quote/Link? If true, fair enough.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The DD fight, was back and forth only from what little Vos saw. Dooku's still a powerful Sith Lord and can get his licks in.

I wonder what the author was thinking when the parts of the fight the reader gets to see show the two as equals.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Heck that even happened in ROTS. Dooku got his drop kick in before Anakin battered him.

Anakin battered him afterwards when he tapped into the darkside, which as I noted in the part of my response you ignored was likely what happened on Naboo.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You also seem to be forgetting TCW Movie. Right at the beginning of TCW, Anakin was already a clear challenge to Dooku.
Nah not really. He ended up on the floor after about 40 seconds and then had his bag sliced despite much of the time being wasted on long blade locks and dialogue. Not to mention we see superior versions of Anakin, in both comics and the show itself, getting stalemated/overpowered by a pre-prime Ventress.

So no, Anakin isn't a challenge for Dooku, at least not without drawing on the darkside.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Something Ventress was never capable of being solo. So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).


Anakin hates her and was willing to have her executed even if she surrendered. So I'm going to call bs on that one thor.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no

Yes. The novel mentions how Anakin had an opening to kill Dooku, but Dooku managed to back away. He beat Anakin seconds after, though it should be noted Anakin was caught off balance.

I've explained those fights in my Dooku vs Windu CaV on CV. Quotes are all there.

Anakin's good enough to injure Dooku as of AotC. And in TCW can hold his own.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's good enough to injure Dooku as of AotC. And in TCW can hold his own. Being able to injure someone indicates you can more than hold your own.

If you read the AotC script, you'd see they aren't mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you read the AotC script, you'd see they aren't mutually exclusive.
We can cherry pick primary sources, the junior novel notes that Dooku even toys with Anakin, or we can stop acting like what was true as of 2005 remains true when superior versions of Anakin need the darkside to overcome a fcking pre-prime Ventress.

Do you know what a primary source is? The junior novel isn't one.

The film, the script, and the adult novel have the highest canonical authority - Lucas worked on all three personally.

And in all three of those versions, we see Anakin giving Dooku some degree of difficulty.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you know what a primary source is? The junior novel isn't one.

Since when?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The film, the script, and the adult novel have the highest canonical authority - Lucas worked on all three personally.

The film never indicates Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin so it's irrelevant to bring up. And the senior novel's depiction is from Kenobi's perspective so naturally he would be unaware of Dooku toying with him.

We're also ignoring that Anakin's performance can spike beyond how he usually performs, which again reconciles how inconsistent what Anakin does in AOTC is with what later versions of him do.

Regardless, I'm wondering how you plan on reconciling your belief that AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku with AOTC Anakin stalemating a version of Ventress who Dooku can do this to:
https://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=1m10s

^^^^ If you consider that challenging someone, by all means keep pushing this AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku thing.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to use and dismiss Shadow Conspiracy as it suits you.

Correction: I use Shadow Conspiracy when it doesn't contradict the episode itself. That's why you won't see me trying and using Maul trying to cheapshot/kill Kenobi, or Kenobi simultaneously shoving aside Maul and Oppress.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's nothing in the actual episode about Soresu not being used in his fight against Maul and Opress.
Because the episode never outlines what Kenobi is thinking. You are trying to force a contradiction where there isn't one.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact the fight doesn't start off with Kenobi suddenly going on the offense to catch Maul/Opress off guard. They are the ones who attack first.

Sure, but Kenobi does go on the offense after being attacked...
-> Attacks Oppress here:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m39s

-> Does it again:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m45s

-> Goes on the offense and throws himself against Maul:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m48s

-> Is about to go on the offense again but Maul, having lost control of his temper and drawing on animalistic hatred, blasts him:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=4m47s

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And if you note carefully, apart from the odd jump at each opponent, his offensive is mainly made up of physical attacks, but in terms of Sabers, he's mostly defending himself against both opponents.

Constantly battering your opponent with physical attacks is offensive fighting. Not to mention that physical attacks are a key tenant of ataru. This is not what we see when he is fighting Maul one on one where he waits for an opening to land a hit on Maul and voluntarily gives ground(in the cave he forces Oppress and Maul to give ground rather than letting the two have at him).


Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, he outclasses Obi-Wan. He always has, yet clearly the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan can't (or at least shouldn't) be that huge.

There's absolutely nothing that stops a pre-prime Kenobi from being woefully outclassed against Dooku aside from your baseless opinion that he should be close to him.


Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's either just a clash of styles (Kenobi is forced on the offensive a lot), or Dooku simply knows how best to tackle Obi-Wan.

Or, Dooku's just that good. As it, per Gillard, stylistic edges only become a significant factor for tier 9's like Sidious, Yoda and ROTS Anakin, which is why I was pointing out that Anakin outperformed Yoda with a form advantage.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Put it this way, if I was to judge Maul and Dooku by their fights against Opress, then Maul would come across as the FAR superior duelist.

Which only renders the comparison ILS is trying to draw even more dubious since every other time Maul and Dooku have faced off vs the same people, Dooku, despite usually dealing with superior versions or worse circumstances, performs significantly better than Maul does.

I'll help you here though. Unlike with Dooku's performance in season 6, you can write this inconsistency off as being a result of Maul's knowledge of Tera Kasi and the use of his artificial legs.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
With the semi-exception of the carwheel at the end, Anakin is not once properly floored, disarmed, or in particular need of Obi-Wan to save him.

Sorry, why is Dooku flooring Anakin with a kick to his skull despite having to deal with Kenobi behind him not an example of properly flooring someone?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact Obi-Wan even sends Anakin to stop Dooku 1 on 1 right after. I doubt he would do that if he was utterly outclassed.

Except that, again, Anakin is shown to be inferior again despite them only clashing blades a couple of times:

-> Dooku dodges two of Anakin's attacks unarmed:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m49s

->Dooku forces Anakin's blade down and then almost gets his shoulder, throwing Anakin off balance, which is why we see him spinning and flailing about afterwards:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m54
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m55s

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just face it, Anakin does far far better against Dooku 1 on 1 (even right after that same fight). And again someone going on the defensive or being driven back by an assault doesn't mean they're outclassed.


Nah, every time Anakin is left on his own here he's getting clowned and he still is getting clowned when Dooku has someone else to worry about. TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku it seems

If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
At least Anakin actually kick dropeed Dooku right in front of him, and began choking him. Dooku gained no such advantage over Anakin in their S6 fight.

Already addressed:

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes Kenobi's never done very well against Dooku. Everyone admits that. But he's always been on the offensive with him, and Makashi is clearly a much better form to take on Soresu than Juyo or Djem So.

And Djem So is good against Makashi. Since we think styles are such a massive factor in fights, I'm just going to dismiss Dooku's performance against Oppress and Ventress as a result of a form disadvantage, Aight?

Well, no actually, even then that doesn't work because Anakin, who Dooku also clowned has a form advantage.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul performs far better against Opress than Dooku does. So snap.

Point being just because one combatant is clearly outclassed, doesn't mean you can blame his partner for that.

Addressed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Funny, I don't remember seeing Anakin in any kind of pain, or seeing a single bruise on him. So that's a strange definition of battered.

Mentally battered bro, at the humiliation the Count left him
Originally posted by Darth Thor
If that was battered then what the heck was Dooku on Naboo?

Not battered, given it was Anakin who was left like a roasted fillet

Continued

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nope. I'm referring to the environment we saw on the actual episode.


No, you aren't. I don't like having to repeat myself, so please pay attention this time:

-> Maul and Oppress are able to stand side by side here and there is still enough space to fit a person in between them:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m19s

-> When they fight, Maul and Oppress take separate sides of Kenobi which means that Oppress has all the space above to himself:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

-> While Both Maul and Oppress fight in a direct manner regardless of the cave:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=51s

->...Kenobi is fighting more acrobatically and still has enough space to fully execute his form:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m51s

Now, lets take a look at what Shadow Conspiracy says about how the space being so small hurt them:


^^^^^ Emphasis mine.
We know this is crap because the brothers don't get in each others way. They stay out of each other's way by taking separate sides of Kenobi:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

Originally posted by Darth Thor
When Opress force waved Anakin and Obi-Wan there was clear space between them. He did no such thing to them when they were actually clashing Sabers.

That cave was way too tight man. You forget, Opress doesn't have the kind of TK Mastery Maul does, where he can levitate Obi-Wan. He just does massive blasts. Given Kenobi was pinned in between Maul and Opress a lot of the time, how would that even work without him hitting Maul as well?


Ah, so your argument is that regardless of Oppress's force abilities, he didn't get an opportunity to tk Kenobi because Kenobi pressed Oppress with his offense?

That's fine with me, because I can argue the exact same thing for Dooku when he had to deal with Ventress and Oppress
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.

However you play it, lowering what Dooku can do with the force based on his fight with Ventress and Oppress remains a very shaky basis for trying to assert that Sidious is>>>>Dooku. And as you've helped me show, there's more than one reason for this.

Originally posted by Darth Thor



You need to be more observant. Did you never notice how at some point Opress was missing a horn?

Well let's see exactly when that happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxrtPnhNtZE


At 0:10-0:13, right as he engages the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo, Opress has all his horns.

The At 0:35, just as his duel with Anakin/Obi-Wan ends, he has a horn missing. That horn is always missing from then on out.


Good observation Thor.

Unfortunately, Oppress's performance against Anakin+Kenobi remains far more impressive than his performance against Kenobi with Maul's help. Getting worn down over time against two opponents is still much better than getting wrecked in about 20 seconds by one opponent with backup.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yet another example of how being driven back doesn't mean you're losing. Any combatant can decide anytime that it's better to give ground and fight defensively.

When you're giving ground and you're not able to do anything in return, you're prolly inferior.



Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clash of styles. Maul handled Opress far easier than both Obi-Wan and Dooku.

Maul didn't have to fight Kenobi while he was taking on Oppress

Already addressed the Dooku bit

That's a lot to reply to, and I'd prefer Az and ILS carry on their debate here...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a lot to reply to, and I'd prefer Az and ILS carry on their debate here...
ILS asked me to jump in, so feel free to continue if you want.

Though I understand if that's too much sh!t for you to type

Alrite. Should reply tomorrow.

Kbro, do us all a favor and google the term "primary source."

The script, which is the highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin making Dooku bleed before being torn apart.

Note that the script makes no indication of Dooku toying with Anakin, which really hampers your argument.

The novel, which is the second highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin giving Dooku a very good fight.

(It should be noted the novel isn't necessarily a primary source either, but Lucas did have a major role in making it.)

The fact it is from Obi-Wan's perspective is not an argument.

Think rationally about it. Explain to me why Lucas would want Kenobi relaying an incorrect version of the fight to the reader.

And then the comic, which would have equal canonical authority to the junior novel, also has Anakin doing very good.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Since when?

Ant answered.



http://i.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2017/flRrzO.gif

That doesn't look like a Sith lord who's finished toying with his prey. It's a the depiction of a tired old Count spent of his vigour after a genuine challenge.



It wasn't a stalemate. She lured him to Yavin 4(?) where the moon's darkside nexus aided her until Anakin used the darkside himself, turning the tables completely. This is a showing totally inline with someone who can challenge Dooku, whilst still being his inferior.

Kbro, you truly deserve to be the next sacrificial contribution. Take a break form this board.

Nah, that's definitely Dooku being disappointed with their efforts lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kbro, do us all a favor and google the term "primary source."

The script, which is the highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin making Dooku bleed before being torn apart.

In the context of a fictional universe, I would take it to mean any primary source material. Regardless, the highest source of canon remainsthe movies.

Anakin making Dooku bleed blatantly contradicts the movie which means that this part of the script was overwritten. In other words, the part of the fight you're trying to cite here has been written out of continuity
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Note that the script makes no indication of Dooku toying with Anakin, which really hampers your argument.

An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. You're going to have to show me an actual contradiction here, one which hasn't been done away with in the final version of the movie.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The novel, which is the second highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin giving Dooku a very good fight.

(It should be noted the novel isn't necessarily a primary source either, but Lucas did have a major role in making it.)

Both the junior novel and the senior novelization were given the same level of canonicity in pre-Disney continuity. While you may argue the senior novel more inherently has more weight since Lucas worked on it, currently, the junior novel is stronger as it's backed up by a plethora of newer sources, including the junior novel, and better aligns with TCW, high canon, where:

-> Even season 2 Anakin was being blasted telekinetically and stalemated in sabers by an inferior Ventress to the one who Dooku dropped in 20 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

-> Where Ventress notes Kenobi as superior to Anakin despite AOTC suggesting the opposite

-> Where even season 6 Anakin is getting clowned by Dooku with backup.

To put it simply, canon took a new direction with Anakin. The senior novelization's depiction is outdated.

Furthermore, aside from the interpretation being outdated, there's no clear contradiction with the junior novelization's version of events, as the part of the fight where Dooku is stated to toy with Anakin is not depicted from objective narration.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact it is from Obi-Wan's perspective is not an argument.

Think rationally about it. Explain to me why Lucas would want Kenobi relaying an incorrect version of the fight to the reader.

The fallibility of Kenobi's perspective is very much an argument, because the senior novel itself shows Kenobi's perspective to be fallible:

^^^^ Kenobi is shown to be fallible, and hence is perspective isn't sufficient to outweigh objective narration. Whatever authorial intent they may have once been, canon went in a different direction.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And then the comic, which would have equal canonical authority to the junior novel, also has Anakin doing very good.
The comic also has Dooku wielding two blades and Yoda disarming him. Not to mention that comic depictions of movie fights are regularly inconsistent with what actually happens across the board in other depictions of the fight. Additionally, much like the senior novelization, it's outdated.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Substantiate that Anakin forced him back then.


I don't need tom, given I don't believe that matters as I've thoroughly explained to you multiple times, when arguing different fights with different combatants.

What matters is the blows you land. Getting floored, getting disarmed, getting KO'd or getting sliced.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're missing my point. The most significant gains Dooku made in the season 6 fight with Anakin came as a result of Dooku going on the offense. Hence here, where he's simply retreating, all Dooku can really do is bat away Anakin's powerblows.


Yes as I've argued multiple times, there's absolutely nothing wrong with going on the defense. Even if you're forced on the defense. Arguing over when people are forced on the defence, and when they choose to go on the defence would be completely pointless. What matters is how well their defence holds up, and what blows they themselves land.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways multiple times.


Dooku clearly lost the saber fight, and gained the edge through his force powers.

And yes, his force powers only gave him an edge. A decisive edge, sure, but still only an edge. There was no sign or guarantee of Dooku actually winning the fight.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.


I'm glad you used the word "edge" yourself. Because that's all Dooku was gaining, an edge.

Perhaps Kenobi was getting in Anakin's way a bit. Anakin did after all have to save him a couple of times. So there's no evidence Dooku would do any better if it was Anakin on his own.

So again, it's specifically Obi-Wan who Dooku can deal very well with. Not Anakin. So saying Dooku could deal with Maul+Opress even easier is ludicrous. Because even Opress alone can cause problems for Dooku as we've seen.

Dooku even says to Ventress "You're no match for me without your monster" clearly indicating Ventress and Opress together possibly are a match for him.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately


TCW series clearly disagrees. All their fights have been back and forth.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Quote/Link? If true, fair enough.



It is true but will have to find it. It's from a podcast from around 5 years ago.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I wonder what the author was thinking when the parts of the fight the reader gets to see show the two as equals.


You need to be more consistent with your arguments. On this very thread against Ant you're arguing Kenobi's vision of the fight is fallible, but here you're claiming Vos's is reliable because of author intentions.

But it is telling that the fight was back and forth, and not equal. As all their fights have been, including ROTS.




Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anakin battered him afterwards when he tapped into the darkside, which as I noted in the part of my response you ignored was likely what happened on Naboo.


Again, like the being forced on the defensive point, how are we supposed to measure this? How are we supposed to know how much of the darkside Anakin is using at any given point in time, and really what difference does it make if he does tap the dark side? I mean both Dooku and Ventress are also using the darkside right?


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nah not really. He ended up on the floor after about 40 seconds and then had his bag sliced despite much of the time being wasted on long blade locks and dialogue.


And yet Dooku couldn't kill him in that 40 seconds. And we clearly see he did TRY to kill him.

He got him on the floor via a force contest. As usual Dooku's force powers give him the edge. A more decisive edge in TCW movie than later on. But Anakin has always been a challenge to him in Sabers. In TCW movie in fact they already seemed to be peers in that department.

So what if the bag got sliced? Anakin himself didn't get sliced right? He wasn't even bothered about the bag, because there was no hutt baby in it.





Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention we see superior versions of Anakin, in both comics and the show itself, getting stalemated/overpowered by a pre-prime Ventress.


You're whole argument seems to rely on his fights with Ventress.

Tell me did Ventress ever actually defeat Anakin? I can tell you right now that she didn't. In fact the the slaves arc comic book he fights off Dooku and Ventress together.

So the logical explanation, given the huge disparity between Dooku and Ventress, and given that Ventress never defeated Anakin, and given that every time Anakin did go all out on Ventress he pretty much stomped... Given all that the only logical explanation is that Anakin usually holds back on Ventress. And substantially so.




Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So no, Anakin isn't a challenge for Dooku, at least not without drawing on the darkside.




Darkside here meaning, going all out


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anakin hates her and was willing to have her executed even if she surrendered. So I'm going to call bs on that one thor.


And yet he stomps her every time he really does get pissed. Once in the CW mini, and once in the clone wars comic where she threatened Padme, then he put her into a coma


I think it's clear the only bs is putting Ventress on par with Anakin. That's simply never been the case. Not in Legends or Canon.

Thor, do you want me to wait for you to finish your response?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Thor, do you want me to wait for you to finish your response?


Yeah otherwise I'll we'll get in a back and forth and you'll say I've ignored certain things. Should be done today.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
In the context of a fictional universe, I would take it to mean any primary source material. Regardless, the highest source of canon remainsthe movies.

Anakin making Dooku bleed blatantly contradicts the movie which means that this part of the script was overwritten. In other words, the part of the fight you're trying to cite here has been written out of continuity

An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. You're going to have to show me an actual contradiction here, one which hasn't been done away with in the final version of the movie.

Both the junior novel and the senior novelization were given the same level of canonicity in pre-Disney continuity. While you may argue the senior novel more inherently has more weight since Lucas worked on it, currently, the junior novel is stronger as it's backed up by a plethora of newer sources, including the junior novel, and better aligns with TCW, high canon, where:

-> Even season 2 Anakin was being blasted telekinetically and stalemated in sabers by an inferior Ventress to the one who Dooku dropped in 20 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

-> Where Ventress notes Kenobi as superior to Anakin despite AOTC suggesting the opposite

-> Where even season 6 Anakin is getting clowned by Dooku with backup.

To put it simply, canon took a new direction with Anakin. The senior novelization's depiction is outdated.

Furthermore, aside from the interpretation being outdated, there's no clear contradiction with the junior novelization's version of events, as the part of the fight where Dooku is stated to toy with Anakin is not depicted from objective narration.

The fallibility of Kenobi's perspective is very much an argument, because the senior novel itself shows Kenobi's perspective to be fallible:

^^^^ Kenobi is shown to be fallible, and hence is perspective isn't sufficient to outweigh objective narration. Whatever authorial intent they may have once been, canon went in a different direction.

The comic also has Dooku wielding two blades and Yoda disarming him. Not to mention that comic depictions of movie fights are regularly inconsistent with what actually happens across the board in other depictions of the fight. Additionally, much like the senior novelization, it's outdated.

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_Q0LLlXLpfVlDxpPqOEFhG17dY4PAjWIC,w400.jpg

The adult novelization is recognized as essentially G-Canon, given Lucas himself considers it apart of his story.

http://i.imgur.com/nkb4Yq2.png

On the subject of junior novels, given Chee explicitly put them in C-Canon category, we can assume Lucas did not work on that.

Granted, he also said novels are C-Canon, but I am operating under the assumption he wasn't including movie novels in such statement.

Again, this is because we also have statements by him putting "movie novelizations" in the same category as the films, radio plays, scripts, etc.

---

Anywho, if you want to play the contradiction card, again it's worth noting Lucas worked on it himself, so any contradiction is not a true contradiction, so to speak, since he still recognized it.

Nevertheless, if we want to go strictly by the movie as absolute and then sources that perfectly are in-line with the movie, I assure you I can find issues in the junior novel.

Also, you've shown nothing thus far that diminishes the credibility of the adult novelization version of the fight, so you'll have to try harder.

For the film specifically, there is no way to exactly know, hence why we then resort not to the junior novel, but the script and adult novel, for reference to what's going on.

I'll respond to your full thing later, but,....
"Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films. "

You've also repeatedly failed to address that ther contradcition you're looking for isn't really there, or how the direction of canon on the topic of aotc anakin vs dooku ahs changed. And how the depiction od the senior novel is incredibly outdated, not only because of sources of less canonical value, but also because of high canon like TCW itself.

Did you just quote Wookiee? Worst yet, the directed me to a Gizmodo page.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Did you just quote Wookiee? Worst yet, the directed me to a Gizmodo page. wait, what did you quote?
cite your source

Which part?

that screenshot.

And yea I'm not sure why you're disputing that what Lucas recognizes in the movie itself overwrites what he recognizes in a earlier script

^ Damn it my time stamps haven't worked at all. Not even taking you to the video.


And I can't even edit. It's all blank!

First video is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufGInoX0mzw&t=145s

and at 2:33 and at 2:35


Second is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUJ5zAK4EYE&t=71s

3rd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpLiiD1Gsjk&t=150s


4th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA&t=49s

and at 1:08

5th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=105s

Continued- Last Part



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Continued



No, you aren't. I don't like having to repeat myself, so please pay attention this time:


Irony

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Maul and Oppress are able to stand side by side here and there is still enough space to fit a person in between them:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m19s

-> When they fight, Maul and Oppress take separate sides of Kenobi which means that Oppress has all the space above to himself:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

-> While Both Maul and Oppress fight in a direct manner regardless of the cave:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=51s

->...Kenobi is fighting more acrobatically and still has enough space to fully execute his form:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m51s



Not sure exactly what you're trying to prove here, or what you're arguing.

Press using his beastly TK waves in that cave would have been harder (just like on the ship in Revenge against Ventress), with Maul in the same vicinity and the positions of all 3 combatants continuously shifting.

His TK waves are quite widespread and not as focused or masterful as Maul's, hence why Maul utilised his at times, but Opress couldn't do much, even when Kenobi was focused on Maul.

And for the record, Kenobi was much smaller than either brother at the time. So of course manoeuvring would be easier to him.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Now, lets take a look at what Shadow Conspiracy says about how the space being so small hurt them:


^^^^^ Emphasis mine.
We know this is crap because the brothers don't get in each others way. They stay out of each other's way by taking separate sides of Kenobi:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s



I never picked out this line from SC as any kind of proof. I pointed out that firstly your cherry picking parts of the book that you like. I've already shown Kenobi isn't the one to initiate the offensive as stated in the book to take the brothers by surprise.

I've also given my own logical reasons why the cave would be disadvantageous to the brothers. Maul's chicken legs are already confirmed to be limiting his martial arts and acrobatics. They will only be even more limited in tight spaces.

Opress's Force Waves will be harder to utilise as well. And Soresu is confirmed in Canon to only require limited space, so Kenobi wouldn't have been disadvantaged at all, except of course in being outnumbered.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ah, so your argument is that regardless of Oppress's force abilities, he didn't get an opportunity to tk Kenobi because Kenobi pressed Oppress with his offense?


Yes, especially in that tight space. When he TK hit both Anakin and Obi-Wan they were at a distance from him. When he choked Ventress and Dooku they were also at a distance and distracted. When he waved them the second time, they were attempting to close the distance. Also in all those cases, he could just wave everyone/everything in site, as he had no allies.

When he TK'd Adi, she was close buy, but there was no Maul in the way. And it was the move he used to gain the advantage. It wasn't his opening move.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That's fine with me, because I can argue the exact same thing for Dooku when he had to deal with Ventress and Oppress
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.



Oh Dooku certainly had ample opportunity to TK Pin both Opress and Ventress. The fight began with both combatants in front of him at a bit of distance.

He simply knew he couldn't.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
However you play it, lowering what Dooku can do with the force based on his fight with Ventress and Oppress remains a very shaky basis for trying to assert that Sidious is>>>>Dooku. And as you've helped me show, there's more than one reason for this.


There's no shaky comparison at all. Dooku clearly put in effort just to keep Opress at bay with his Force powers. And that was a combination of TK and FL. It also took him similar effort to subdue Ventress with his force powers in their 1 v 1, again a combination of TK and FL.

Compare that to Sidious casually TKing (without FL) and crushing a much stronger duo combined while laughing. There's really no comparison. So Sidious ragdolling Dooku was pretty consistent with what we've previously seen. Sure it might take him more effort than it took to TK Maul. But there's really no reason to believe it would take him much more effort than it took to Pin Maul+Opress.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Good observation Thor.

Unfortunately, Oppress's performance against Anakin+Kenobi remains far more impressive than his performance against Kenobi with Maul's help. Getting worn down over time against two opponents is still much better than getting wrecked in about 20 seconds by one opponent with backup.



Or perhaps it was Kenobi who was performing much better. He's likely improved from S3 to S5, has faced Opress multiple times by then, so is much more ready, plus was even more focused after Adi's death. Did Kenobi ever have that peak level of focus against Dooku? Doubt it.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
When you're giving ground and you're not able to do anything in return, you're prolly inferior.


Too much speculation involved there. There's no way to objectively measure how much a person is being forced back, and how much they are willingly giving ground.

Given that, unless the losing ground actually leads to something after, all that's really important is how well their defences are holding up, and how capably they continue to parry the blows of the person on the offensive.





Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul didn't have to fight Kenobi while he was taking on Oppress




Maul disarmed Opress out in 2 parries and a wrist lock.

Kenobi traded several blow with Opress one on one whilst Maul was at a distance. Maul clearly performed better against Opress than either Kenobi or Dooku.

That doesn't mean he's superior to either one. It just mean clash of styles and do exist and do matter. Every fight is different.

Heck just look at Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi. You yourself have admitted the difference isn't nearly as big as it initially seemed. So a seeming stomp doesn't necessitate a massive difference between combatants.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Heck just look at Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi. You yourself have admitted the difference isn't nearly as big as it initially seemed. So a seeming stomp doesn't necessitate a massive difference between combatants.
Honestly, I might not respond to the entire thing since life is getting busier and these posts are getting really long.

However this isn't a good example of anything. Ben Kenobi vs Maul was specifically supposed to be a different style of fighting, was stated to be shorter because the characters have fought each other numerous times before. The intent behind this fight doesn't apply to other fights in the mythos.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Honestly, I might not respond to the entire thing since life is getting busier and these posts are getting really long.

However this isn't a good example of anything. Ben Kenobi vs Maul was specifically supposed to be a different style of fighting, was stated to be shorter because the characters have fought each other numerous times before. The intent behind this fight doesn't apply to other fights in the mythos.


Authorial intent behind a specific fight is one thing. But then it takes part in a larger universe and starts adding to cases of very short fights not necessarily meaning the gap between combatants is huge. Another example would be Maul vs Opress. Now sure Maul is solidly above Opress, but that just made Opress look like Maul's dealing with a youngling or something. Heck I'm sure S1 Ahsoka could have done better.

But Even going by authorial comments, Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance. So point is, it was simply the wrong fight for Maul, as Kenobi knew just how to deal with him.

With Dooku and Kenobi it could be a combination of things- clash of styles, and Dooku just having his number down pretty well.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Authorial intent behind a specific fight is one thing. But then it takes part in a larger universe and starts adding to cases of very short fights not necessarily meaning the gap between combatants is huge.

Unless the other fights in the mythos were styled in the same way as Kenobi vs Maul for the same out of and in universe reasons, they can't be explained in the same way.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Another example would be Maul vs Opress. Now sure Maul is solidly above Opress, but that just made Opress look like Maul's dealing with a youngling or something. Heck I'm sure S1 Ahsoka could have done better.

Which can be explained with tera kasi or Maul being able to leverage his unique legs. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what Ben vs Maul special.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
But Even going by authorial comments, Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance. So point is, it was simply the wrong fight for Maul, as Kenobi knew just how to deal with him.

Which is fine, it only strengthens my point.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
With Dooku and Kenobi it could be a combination of things- clash of styles, and Dooku just having his number down pretty well.
The only thing present here is a style advantage, which hardly makes up for Kenobi having backup