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As per the inner flap of Invincible, Jacen has a greater mastery of the Force than his grandfather. Do you believe this? Is the disparity massive, or does "command of the Force" infer something other than raw power? If Jacen is better than Vader, by what extent is he better? 10%, 1% 0.1% ? Is this differnce of power reflected in feats?

Eh, not "just a touch", but not "massively".

I'll meet in-between and say... by a decent degree?

Originally posted by MythLord
Eh, not "just a touch", but not "massively".

I'll meet in-between and say... by a decent degree?

What's your reasoning? Just a guess isn't really a valid statement. Why is Caedus more powerful than Vader by a decent degree? What feats distinguish the difference?

A touch, or what Myth said. not sure, tbh.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
What's your reasoning? Just a guess isn't really a valid statement. Why is Caedus more powerful than Vader by a decent degree? What feats distinguish the difference?

I mean, according to the so-called "blurbs", he's rivalling Vader prior to a pretty distinct power-growth, so... yeah there's that.

Going directly off of blurbs here, BTW. Jacen doesn't have any clear limit other than he's below Luke, because most, if not all, his showings are highly circumstantial.

What is the quote/blurb for Caedus > Vader, btw?

Originally posted by MythLord
I mean, according to the so-called "blurbs", he's rivalling Vader prior to a pretty distinct power-growth, so... yeah there's that.


where?



Most characters don't have any clear limits in regards to their power of the Force. Does that mean a featless Jedi could rival Galen marek's telekinesis, because the latter has established his limits while the former doesn't? According to the blurb, Caedus has a greater command of the Force than his Grandad, but there is no clear distinction between how much greater he is, in which case we differ to their body of feats and accolades. All this tells me is you have no reason to believe Caedus superior to his grandfather "by a decent degree" other than gut feeling.

If Vader is an 8, Caedus is an 8.5. His main advantage is his knowledge of many force techniques that Vader has never heard of. In a TK fight, they'd be even. In sabers, I'd give it to Vader

Originally posted by Ursumeles
What is the quote/blurb for Caedus > Vader, btw?

Just a notch above him, Caedus knows techniques Vader's probably never heard off then again Vader's shown proficiency in areas that Caedus hasn't. Like Darth Abonis said, if Vader's an 8 then Caedus is a 8,5 at best.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Is the disparity massive, or does "command of the Force" infer something other than raw power?

Possibly this.

Like TCW vs. TPM Maul.

Yeah, Caedus isn't more powerful by any huge margin, just enough to make a difference. He's decently more more powerful. Such feats to place him there include the fact that he contended LOTF Luke.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Just a notch above him, Caedus knows techniques Vader's probably never heard off then again Vader's shown proficiency in areas that Caedus hasn't.

The number of techniques Caedus has - whether they are of use in combat or not, is greater than Vader's. The premier power he's shown that Vader can not cast, is the ability to produce electricity with his fingertips, which is prevented by the cybernetic circuitry and metal making up Vader's hand. It is certainly possible that "command of the Force" refers to the ways in which the Force can be commanded. In this case, Caedus can wield the Force in ways Vader can not. But for the Force powers both of them have shown capable of, Vader has superior feats in every category. Edit: except for perhaps telepathy.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I think you meant that? Thanks for catching that for me lol.

Vader couldn't even stand properly against a pissed off RotJ Luke.

Caedus lost decisively to essentially prime Luke, but still put him in a bacta tank for a week.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
where?

The Publisher's Summary of Legacy of the Force: Betrayal have Luke dreaming of Jacen as a being he likened to Darth Vader in power and ruthlessness. Then publisher summaries for some of the other sources(like Tempest, Exile, Fury) note Jacen's growing more powerful by the day. And the series of novels takes place over the course of a year and a half.

Anakin Skywalker, someone who's potential is passed down to Jacen, in less time has grown by a "vast" amount, so it's not hard to see Jacen doing the same.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Most characters don't have any clear limits in regards to their power of the Force. Does that mean a featless Jedi could rival Galen marek's telekinesis, because the latter has established his limits while the former doesn't? According to the blurb, Caedus has a greater command of the Force than his Grandad, but there is no clear distinction between how much greater he is, in which case we differ to their body of feats and accolades. All this tells me is you have no reason to believe Caedus superior to his grandfather "by a decent degree" other than gut feeling.

Well, if you're going to play with strawmen. Holistically speaking, it's obvious a random padawan isn't above Galen Marek. What I mean is we know Caedus should stand tall ahead of Vader, but it's unclear to what degree. Comparing and contrasting feats it would seem Vader is superior, but with the fact that most ,if not all, of Jacen's feats by the time he's Caedus are done with barely any effort -- and a quote championing him as Vader's better exists -- there's no reason to assume the "hur dur, featz only!" approach would apply in this situation.

Once we get past that, Caedus is just better as per canon(if you wish to take Publisher Summaries as such).

And if you wanna play feats only, Caedus performed better against a pissed off GM Luke than Vader did against a pissed off RotJ Luke(I believe Beware the Power of the Dark Side even has Luke moving faster than Vader's perception or something along those lines).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus lost decisively to essentially prime Luke, but still put him in a bacta tank for a week.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthfallax/blog/my-interpretation-of-caedus-vs-luke-in-inferno/128961/

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader couldn't even stand properly against a pissed off RotJ Luke.

Caedus lost decisively to essentially prime Luke, but still put him in a bacta tank for a week.

And that might be a valid comparison, when you completely ignore the circumstances of the events in the post, which have been addressed in others. Regardless, everyone and their mothers puts up a fight against Luke - the only reason Caedus lasted as long as he did was because of Luke's decision not to rag doll him on the spot. Luke is simply too inconstant to be used as a measuring stick, unless you want to elevate Dessan's, Lumiya's, random Krislaws, Kuellers, Brakiss, random Dark Tribe Sith, Vong Bots etc, you need to find a better measuring stick. Do you have anything else?

Both Vader and Caedus have fought Aurra Sing for example. The comparison there doesn't look so good for the latter.

Edit : it's actually pretty horrendous for Caedus.

Because Jacen was cheapshotted, Aurra was enraged and Jacen was holding back infront of his daughter.

Meanwhile, Vader just dodged a few blows from Aurra.

A bit more powerful in destructive capabilities. He's far more versatile however and is solidly above Vader in the realm of augmentation.

Originally posted by MythLord
Because Jacen was cheapshotted
Nah
Originally posted by MythLord
Aurra was enraged
Wat?
Originally posted by MythLord
and Jacen was holding back infront of his daughter.
Lmao.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan

Lmao.
He was, lol.
Yeah, I know, the maybe shittiest writing in all of SW.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader couldn't even stand properly against a pissed off RotJ Luke.

Caedus lost decisively to essentially prime Luke, but still put him in a bacta tank for a week.

Not being able to use force lightning is hardly holding back. At least not something worth mentioning.

He also did hold back in other areas, lol.

Don't recall anything else so quote or gtfo.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah

Well he was primarily focused on getting the thermal detonator as far away from Allana as possible, and that's when Aurra attacked him.

Then she had him in a position where he couldn't turn around or else he'd get his head skewered and Sing proceeded to kick him.

Then later, when he hesitated and dropped his guard, she attacked him yet again and still failed to do anything of note.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Wat?

Yeah, she was angered as he entered her mind, IIRC.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao.

He would've killed Aurra with an easy blast of lightning if not for Allana. It's pretty decisive holding back when you have the potential to one-shot someone and then not do it.

Originally posted by MythLord
Well he was primarily focused on getting the thermal detonator as far away from Allana as possible, and that's when Aurra attacked him.

Then she had him in a position where he couldn't turn around or else he'd get his head skewered and Sing proceeded to kick him.

Then later, when he hesitated and dropped his guard, she attacked him yet again and still failed to do anything of note.

Clever use of environment, not cheapshot. Not my problem that Caedus is a dumb f-uck.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, she was angered as he entered her mind, IIRC.

https://awesomecommentphotos.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/972236_536098649790533_1366690391_n.jpg

Originally posted by MythLord
He would've killed Aurra with an easy blast of lightning if not for Allana. It's pretty decisive holding back when you have the potential to one-shot someone and then not do it.

LMAO. So Lightning is the only way to beat someone? How about TK? I find it hard to believe that if Caedus couldn't subdue Aurra with TK, then Lightning would've worked.

No amount of sugarcoating can save Caedus from getting humiliated by a sub-Aayla phag.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan

No amount of sugarcoating can save Caedus from getting humiliated by a sub-Aayla phag.
If she would be really > Caedus(Hint: she isn't she would be vastly superior to the version, thatnlost to Aayla, lmao.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Clever use of environment, not cheapshot. Not my problem that Caedus is a dumb f-uck.

Caedus dominated Luke through clever use of the enviromet too, then.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Clever use of environment, not cheapshot. Not my problem that Caedus is a dumb f-uck.

She wasn't even using the environment, she was catching Jacen off-guard because he'd rather his daughter live than waste time on a pale-ass nut job.

By your own logic, Caedus pinning Luke to a wall is "clever use of the environment".

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
LMAO. So Lightning is the only way to beat someone? How about TK? I find it hard to believe that if Caedus couldn't subdue Aurra with TK, then Lightning would've worked.

No amount of sugarcoating can save Caedus from getting humiliated by a sub-Aayla phag.

I mean, just because Jacen's one leeway Force Push failed doesn't mean an all-out telekinetic ragdoll wouldn't. He simply channelled his pain in a manner of a Dark Sider so it makes sense he'd use a Dark Side power.

He wasn't humiliated and by the time she fought him, Aurra wasn't a sub-Aayla phag.

Originally posted by MythLord
The Publisher's Summary of Legacy of the Force: Betrayal have Luke dreaming of Jacen as a being he likened to Darth Vader


And you do realise this is Luke having a Force vision into the future, of a Caedus in the Future?



Ok, so what does this have to do with the vision Luke had in betrayal, which isn't the same as living Jacen in the present. Bottom line - your chain of power growth doesn't have a beginning, making the rest of it utterly irrelevant.



Jacen doesn't have Anakin's potential, unless you have a quote to prove otherwise. He has Skywalker blood coursing through his veins, but in any case, it's been diluted by two generations of non Force sensitives thanks to Padme Amidalla and Han Solo, so it's not clear if Jacen's potential is even on par with post mustafar Vader's. Sure, his "command of the Force" is greater, but that might be because he can use the Force in ways Vader can not.



Yeah, and that's why we should look to their compilation of feats to define what the differnce is; if their is any differnce at all.



Then why do you think Caedus is above him in the Force by a decent degree? If there isn't any empirical data to back that assertion up, and the data itself favours Vader, then it's just a groupie demonstration of fanboysim.



19bby Vader collapsed a cathedral with a huge labyrinth lying under it while in a virtually dead state. Does Caedus have anything remotely on this level that costs him "barely any effort".



Yeah, but the thread is to try and differentiate the power differnce between them. We know that the quote exists, although it's meaning isn't clear. Anyway, just because something is greatest, or greater than the others, does not make everything else insignificant. There are quotes championing Dooku as the second best swordsman in the order, yet the differnce between him and Mace is not likely to be a "decent margin", more like and infinitesimal one. So what's your reason to place him "decently ahead" of Vader.



A horrendous comparison devoid of context. Luke pinned Caedus to a chair with infinitesimal amounts of effort, he defeated him in combat within three lightsaber strikes, the only reason Caedus could last as long as he could against is because of the latter's tendency to job against every character he ever faces. Otherwise, he could have just dominated Caedus on the spot. For a better comparison, 19bby Vader stomped Aurra Sing before improving his mobility, while the latter could have a fairly protracted duel with Caedus, pretty much outmatching him in martial combat.

Oh God I have to respond to that hot mess of a post... I'll do it when I'm bored with my life, tbh(i.e. I have time).

Originally posted by MythLord
Oh God I have to respond to that hot mess of a post... I'll do it when I'm bored with my life, tbh(i.e. I have time).

Learn to type past 20 words per minute then, dickwad.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Learn to type past 20 words per minute then, dickwad.

I can type as fast as I want, thank you very much. You white males and your privilage.

Originally posted by MythLord
She wasn't even using the environment.
Originally posted by MythLord
Then she had him in a position where he couldn't turn around or else he'd get his head skewered and Sing proceeded to kick him.

Caedus shouldn't be your role model to be a dumb f-uck you imbecile.


Originally posted by MythLord
By your own logic, Caedus pinning Luke to a wall is "clever use of the environment".

Who the f-uck cares...

Originally posted by MythLord
I mean, just because Jacen's one leeway Force Push failed doesn't mean an all-out telekinetic ragdoll wouldn't.

Yes it does. If Caedus would've been so far and above Aurra as your cocksucking ass thinks then a single force push should've rendered her useless.

This is how it looks like when you get pushed by your betters:
https://media.giphy.com/media/L57YzwWhFWZVu/giphy.gif
http://puu.sh/s3bMh/583603af7a.jpg
http://puu.sh/s3bHW/be5c5b90a3.jpg

Originally posted by MythLord
He simply channelled his pain in a manner of a Dark Sider so it makes sense he'd use a Dark Side power.

That's some shit tier reply if I've ever seen one, because sith never use TK

Originally posted by MythLord
He wasn't humiliated and by the time she fought him, Aurra wasn't a sub-Aayla phag.

Nice theory you have there, prove it.

I think there's a passage in Tempest noting that Aurra wasn't in her hay day, which was during the Clone Wars. I'll try and find it.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And that might be a valid comparison, when you completely ignore the circumstances of the events in the post, which have been addressed in others.


Yeah totally, an injured knee Luke is obviously weaker than the RotJ pissed off Luke that utterly dominated Vader.

Hey, wait - since you can restrict your sample to three strikes and be like "well Luke would've won in three strikes!", while ignoring the rest of the duel as statistical noise (even though the rest of the duel was a larger, more fair sample), and then delete that from your reply, I can do the same. Just look at Luke right when he disarms Vader - hey, he did it in one strike!



I'll let you figure out the double standard for yourself. Regardless, Luke usually holds back; yet in this case he was enraged enough to actively try to kill his nephew from behind.



Even when Ben was in danger? lolwut



That it's cute watching you try to debate.

Ellimist, before I go to dress any of this (both threads), what's your excuse for Jacen's difficulty against an out of prime Aurra Sing, in comparison to 19bby Vader's consummate ease with the latter?

He isn't more powerful at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Ah, jut saw it yet. Thanks

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He isn't more powerful at all.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He isn't more powerful at all.

Still sticking with this, yeah.

mmm
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I doubt it. I know Caedus > Vader.

Caedus has been established here for years as being more powerful than Vader. Good to see we have some new incredibly toxic seeming members to make this forum not fun.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Ellimist, before I go to dress any of this (both threads), what's your excuse for Jacen's difficulty against an out of prime Aurra Sing, in comparison to 19bby Vader's consummate ease with the latter?

Reverse scaling isn't a thing.

lel

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Caedus has been established here for years as being more powerful than Vader. Good to see we have some new incredibly toxic seeming members to make this forum not fun.
So...because you have Caedus > Vader since years, everyone who has Vader > Caedus is toxic?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Reverse scaling isn't a thing.
Plus I'm pretty sure Vader vs Aurra was a fist fight.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So...because you have Caedus > Vader since years, everyone who has Vader > Caedus is toxic?

No, there is no correlation between who I think is stronger in this fight and if people are toxic here. People being toxic in this thread is why I said that.

He isn't more powerful than Vader at all, which is why he got his shit stomped in. He has a blurb on the back of a book, and nothing else.

And Luke's own estimation.

Bloodlusted ROTJ Luke legit smashes Vader in seconds.

Bloodlusted Grandmaster Luke gets tagged by Caedus and can't put him away nearly as fast.

Vader totes rapes Caedus.

First, Luke never raped Vader in seconds and they had a prolonged duel. Second, Caedus has Luke tied up, poisoned, and strangled. And still lost. Badly. To a Luke out of his physical prime which would be around 30. Take that shit somewhere else, Trocity.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
First, Luke never raped Vader in seconds and they had a prolonged duel. Second, Caedus has Luke tied up, poisoned, and strangled. And still lost. Badly. To a Luke out of his physical prime which would be around 30. Take that shit somewhere else, Trocity.

Enraged Luke did which is what Troc said.

Also, who the f*ck cares if he was in his physical prime when he was in his prime as a Force user? Lmao.

When I re-read LOTF recently, i saw more circumstances that would have hindered Luke. Even as grandmaster, this is a person who has had several in-character excuses to why he performs less well than usual - this is a guy who ran from Gammorian guard's while injured. Jacen only managed to do as well as he did because he poisoned Luke with a Vong torture device that was completely undetectable via Force sense. Which explains why Luke couldn't three-shot Jacen like he previously had in sabers after that point. It explains why someone like Aurra Sing can practically beat the shit out of him, be unaffected by his Force push and even disarm him of his weapon. It explains why Katarn's strike team was besting/equalising him in the saber portion of their fight.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And Luke's own estimation.

Do you have a quote.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Do you have a quote.

Ant does.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Enraged Luke did which is what Troc said.

Which was after an emotional and prolonged duel.

Because it's a physical contest and that matters more? Unless you want to argue Obi-Wan in ANH is more powerful than he is in RotS.

If he can augment himself to greater degrees with the Force then maybe.

The difference there is we don't even know if he did grow in power or if he did by how much.

With Luke he's exponentially more powerful and thus has exponentially greater physicals.

Luke doesn't become "exponentially more powerful" than he was in his physical prime until after fighting Caedus, as in FotJ. Before this, his greatest feats were against the Vong, which I find way more impressive.

He was exponentially more powerful in the Force then RotJ Luke by that point is what I'm saying. And thus could augment himself to far greater levels.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because it's a physical contest and that matters more? Unless you want to argue Obi-Wan in ANH is more powerful than he is in RotS.

What Luke did after ROTJ and What Obi Wan did between episodes 3 and 4 were much different.