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Revan's unbalancing of the Force, accomplished by her sheer presence, is a comparable, if not outright superior feat, to Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's unbalancing.

- The Force was "roiled and convulsed" like never before with Revan's reintroduction to the galaxy:



- The Force was disturbed to an extent that Lana Beniko remarked that it was felt "nowhere and everywhere:"



- Unlike instances such as the resurrection of Darth Maul, the disturbance only grew in time, thus constituting it as an unbalancing:



- The idea was entertained that the Force was affected to the extent that it was impacting the thinking of others:



As established above, many individuals felt this presence. Only the protagonist was unable to sense it. While many would argue that, since the protagonist did not sense the disturbance, that it must have been weak, this is a flawed argument. The protagonist is an individual far more powerful and attuned that some of the character's who sensed the disturbance. Thus, an alternative argument would be that, frankly, the Force itself was protecting the protagonist from the disturbance. This argument is supported by the fact that the protagonist had a Force vision of Revan's plans, allowing Revan to actually be caught and his plans to be destroyed. Likewise, the ship of the protagonist mysteriously glitched and changed its coordinates to Rishi. These cannot be dismissed as mere coincidence. As established in A New Hope, the concept of "luck" in Star Wars is replaced by that of the Force.

To summarize:

- Revan's presence in the Force unbalanced it like it never had been before.

- The disturbance was a constant, growing threat, not a wound in the Force or such.

- Many individuals made note of this, with some fearing it was affecting their mind.

- The Force took action against Revan, guiding the protagonist to confront Revan in battle.

---

In comparison, the below are facts concerning the unbalancing of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis:

- It was accomplished after "months of intense meditation."

- For the "first several months," little progress was seen.

- No "counterforce" had risen against them during that time.

- They were completely united as a single, incorporeal entity.

- The end result of the war was the creation of Anakin Skywalker.

- A rift in the Force was already established by Darth Tenebrous' master.

While the feats, ignoring all circumstances, is likely more impressive for Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis, since it yielded the creation of the Chosen One itself, note that Revan never even attempted to wage war against the Force, nor did he mediate for months straight. His mere presence was enough to not only affect the Force on a galaxy-wide scale, but likewise force the Force to initiate a "counterforce" to the disturbance, similar to how the Chosen One was created. The notion that Revan, in months of deep meditation and specifically aiming to war with the Force, couldn't replicate the results of these two when he's already doing it without realizing it, is absurd.

Thus, the following two options are presented to the community:

- Recognition that the feat is significantly less impressive than you act like, or

- Recognition that Revan is vastly more powerful than you give him credit for.

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Regardless of direction this takes, popcorn all around

Honestly I'd forgotten that the protags ship was guided to Rishii, seemingly by the Force itself, which certainly does strike me as impressive, unprecedented even, if true.

This certainly is an impressive display of power, given, as you say, that Revan wasn't even intentionally doing all of this.

Revan's parity with the likes of Sheev and Lumpyhead is becoming more apparent by the day.

Now that that's out of the way let's get to dismantling this.

Context for the first quote and its relation to Revan please.

Beniko notes that the thing she's feeling in the Force "exists everywhere and nowhere." Not the Force itself.

The third quote notes that the disturbance is growing larger not that an imbalance is occurring.

"- Revan's presence in the Force unbalanced it like it never had been before"

Since nowhere do the quotes you provide prove an unbalancing we can only say that his presence affected the Force in a manner it had never been effected before. And that's only if you provide the context that it was reffering to Revan.

"- Many individuals made note of this, with some fearing it was affecting their mind"

Beniko feared that if she was wrong about what she was sensing that it could be a symtom of an unwell mind. Not that Revan's presence would affect her mind.

"- The Force took action against Revan, guiding the protagonist to confront Revan in battle"

Nowhere is this indicated. Sidious was still able to have visions of the future despite his actions causing a disturbance or inbalance in the Force. Just because the protagonist had a vision of Revan doesn't mean it was the will of the Force for said vision to have occured. Not in the manner you're implying.

The rest doesn't need to be addressed until you can prove that Revan's presence caused an imbalance that the Force itself responded to.

Will be gone for the rest of the day. Will be interested to see if you actually answered a single one of my questions directly when I return.

You sure he won't do it via the proxy of Hahr?

He might. I don't rule out any contingency in regards to Ant's depravity.

It's by Spindrall, remarking how he feels about the Force. He then states that they'll confront Revan on Yavin IV, but will fail to stop Revan's plans.

The relation to Revan is established in the Rakata Prime flashpoint, in which the disturbance felt is stated to be Revan.



Uh, yeah, that's what I said. "It" (in reference to my original post) being Revan's disturbance.



A disturbance in the Force that stretches across the galaxy, is maintained over the course of several months, and affects the tapestry of the Force itself, is an unbalancing, lol.

The entire concept of a disturbance of the Force is a temporarily unbalancing of the Force, generally in a specific area, but can sometimes briefly extend across the galaxy (ex. the destruction of Alderaan).



No, she feared that the disturbance of the Force (i.e. Revan) may be why she's unwell and not thinking straight.



You never even played the game. Why are you telling me what's indicated and not indicated? Again:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
- Unlike instances such as the resurrection of Darth Maul, the disturbance only grew in time, thus constituting it as an unbalancing:

Following Darth Maul's ritual by Mother Talzin, I recall a disturbance in the Force that rippled across the galaxy, and then it receded, like the Alderaan destruction.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not Ant actually believes half of the arguments he makes these days.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly I'd forgotten that the protags ship was guided to Rishii, seemingly by the Force itself, which certainly does strike me as impressive, unprecedented even, if true.

This certainly is an impressive display of power, given, as you say, that Revan wasn't even intentionally doing all of this.

Revan's parity with the likes of Sheev and Lumpyhead is becoming more apparent by the day.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not Ant actually believes half of the arguments he makes these days.

Would be pretty pathetic to push shit he doesn't advocate *shrugs*

I'm just patiently waiting to watch this go up in flames in either direction tbh

Given The Ellimist can't respond to this before addressing my debate with him on the other sub-forum, the only legitimate opposition is Beni.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

There's no legitimate opposition.

Kiddo

There's no sell by date on rebuttals :maybe

Impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Given The Ellimist can't respond to this before addressing my debate with him on the other sub-forum, the only legitimate opposition is Beni.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

There's no legitimate opposition.

Who knows, maybe Temp will do something.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who knows, maybe Temp will do something.
http://66.media.tumblr.com/66a182f69651bac52c26619ffa53c8de/tumblr_mgr7ykPCnn1r43stuo8_r1_250.gif

Classic.

Ehh, you're severely high-balling the feat, but yes --- him having a profound effect on the Force by simply existing is mighty impressive.

Also, you forgot to add the the corruption of the Republic also helped tipped the balance of the Force.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Anyway given that Valkorion failed to achieve a similar disturbance I'm inclined to believe this has more to do with Revan becoming an aberration than his mighty powah.

Ant gets an A for effort.

Revan grows closer to his proper placement. Good analysis Ant.

If so, he's Caedus/Plagueis-tier.

*internal fangasm*

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not Ant actually believes half of the arguments he makes these days.

He's not a moron, so nah.

I've no doubt that Neph takes Ant's conclusions at face value, though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


It's by Spindrall, remarking how he feels about the Force. He then states that they'll confront Revan on Yavin IV, but will fail to stop Revan's plans.

The relation to Revan is established in the Rakata Prime flashpoint, in which the disturbance felt is stated to be Revan.



Uh, yeah, that's what I said. "It" (in reference to my original post) being Revan's disturbance.



A disturbance in the Force that stretches across the galaxy, is maintained over the course of several months, and affects the tapestry of the Force itself, is an unbalancing, lol.

The entire concept of a disturbance of the Force is a temporarily unbalancing of the Force, generally in a specific area, but can sometimes briefly extend across the galaxy (ex. the destruction of Alderaan).



No, she feared that the disturbance of the Force (i.e. Revan) may be why she's unwell and not thinking straight.



You never even played the game. Why are you telling me what's indicated and not indicated? Again:



Fair enough.

You noted that the Force itself was in flux which isn't what the quote was stating.

No it just means that the disturbance itself exists and as was noted was growing which is why it is a flaw in the tapestry that is the Force. Not that the Force itself became unbalanced.

No it's simply a presence or occurrence that is notable which is why genocides or the tilting of a world to one side of the Force or another doesn't unbalance the Force as a whole.

"I worry that these concerns are merely the figments of a deranged mind."

Try again.

I'm saying by what you explained and going by the quote that simply because the ship's coordinates randomly lead the protagonist to Revan it doesn't mean it was the will of the Force. Random chance still exists in the galaxy as probability is a universal concept.

Originally posted by ILS
Ant gets an A for effort.

I say he gets an F for fanwanking.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Also, you forgot to add the the corruption of the Republic also helped tipped the balance of the Force.

Citation needed.

That's how I would have preferred Luceno to frame the whole thing, since the ritual feat is one of the dumbest in the whole of Legends.

#Rekt

It's funny how the worst of the TOR phags tends to bring out the best in others. mmm

Anyway, great work Swords.
https://media.giphy.com/media/GCLlQnV7wzKLu/giphy.gif

Good stuff.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Given The Ellimist can't respond to this before addressing my debate with him on the other sub-forum, the only legitimate opposition is Beni.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

There's no legitimate opposition.

Relax, I'll get to it; I have two exams this week.

But you're wrong BTW.

Also, ILS just persuaded me to put Plagueis and BoTPM Sidious solidly above Valkorion (used to have them as relative peers).

Still 80% sure Ant didn't believe a word of that.

Will get to you on Friday night. Hopefully this time you respond back unlike our last debate on this, which you didn't.

EDIT: Actually, I'll respond in full tonight. I just need to do my Spanish homework first.

Should be interesting....

The Force's response to imbalance was underwhelming?

They were directly channeling energy at it for months and the best response the Force has to the active attempt to imbalance it is birth a ****er with 2 times the potential of the strongest ****er targeting it

Months of energy

2 times the potential of Sidious

Sidious is powerful, but the product hardly comes out to what I'd expect from them channeling all their power at the Force for months on end off and on

Which leads me to believe they weren't doing anything near that tbh *shrugs*

That said, this is all semantics

Ant's argument can live and die with him, that outcome I'm just here to watch and laugh over *shrugs*

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
The Force's response to imbalance was underwhelming?

They were directly channeling energy at it for months and the best response the Force has to the active attempt to imbalance it is birth a ****er with 2 times the potential of the strongest ****er targeting it

Months of energy

2 times the potential of Sidious

Sidious is powerful, but the product hardly comes out to what I'd expect from them channeling all their power at the Force for months on end off and on

Which leads me to believe they weren't doing anything near that tbh *shrugs*

That said, this is all semantics

Ant's argument can live and die with him, that outcome I'm just here to watch and laugh over *shrugs*

That's an interesting way to rephrase the Force creating through immaculate conception a literal in-universe Deus Ex Machina just to stop them.

He was The Chosen One, .i.e. the most cosmically significant character in all of Star Wars. That's the foe that rose specifically against Sidious and Plagueis.

The entire idea of unbalancing the Force through what Plagueis and Sidious did is retarded anyway, lal. Luceno is a great writer, but the very concept is phucking retarded.

Also @ Temp: I'm currently compiling the sources right now,

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The entire idea of unbalancing the Force through what Plagueis and Sidious did is retarded anyway, lal. Luceno is a great writer, but the very concept is phucking retarded.

Also @ Temp: I'm currently compiling the sources right now,

That's what the whole Chosen One thing was about though...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's an interesting way to rephrase the Force creating through immaculate conception a literal in-universe Deus Ex Machina just to stop them.

He was The Chosen One, .i.e. the most cosmically significant character in all of Star Wars. That's the foe that rose specifically against Sidious and Plagueis.

Indeed

Still only twice the power of Sidious

The great equalizer

Months of power placed into the ritual

Comes out to twice the power of Sidious

You'd think an equal response to its sudden peril would house more power after months of energy targeting it specifically to knock it off kilter

I'm only left to conclude they didn't need anywhere near their full power to conduct the ritual

Simple math ****s that comparison basically

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's what the whole Chosen One thing was about though...
Yes, but the way they did it was comically lame. I'd rather the Chosen One be created solely via the corruption of the Republic and Sidious rise to power rather than some mediation and such.

Just plain stupidity.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Still only twice the power of Sidious


How do you know what that translates into? Vader had 80% of Sidious's power by the same Lucas, and yet Sidious's feats are orders of magnitude superior, so it may not be a linear relationship between potential and what you can do.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's what the whole Chosen One thing was about though...

Yep

The chosen one

Who houses 2 times the power of a man that was fought nearly equally by a green garden gnome :maybe

After months of the Force being targeted

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, but the way they did it was comically lame. I'd rather the Chosen One be created solely via the corruption of the Republic and Sidious rise to power rather than some mediation and such.

Just plain stupidity.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, but the way they did it was comically lame. I'd rather the Chosen One be created solely via the corruption of the Republic and Sidious rise to power rather than some mediation and such.

Just plain stupidity.

Not sure if I agree; in either case, it's a solid reason to put Plagueis above Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure if I agree; in either case, it's a solid reason to put Plagueis above Valkorion.

Well sure, the fact that it was a poor literary device doesn't mean Plagueis still doesn't beat dat ass.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Yep

The chosen one

Who houses 2 times the power of a man that was fought nearly equally by a green garden gnome :maybe

After months of the Force being targeted Full Power Anakin > Son + Daughter combined. And would tool TPM Palpatine and Plagueis quite handily.

Altogether I'd say what the Force produced was overkill. mmm

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Indeed

Still only twice the power of Sidious

The great equalizer

Months of power placed into the ritual

Comes out to twice the power of Sidious

You'd think an equal response to its sudden peril would house more power after months of energy targeting it specifically to knock it off kilter

I'm only left to conclude they didn't need anywhere near their full power to conduct the ritual

Simple math ****s that comparison basically

I don't think you can apply math to something like that tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, but the way they did it was comically lame. I'd rather the Chosen One be created solely via the corruption of the Republic and Sidious rise to power rather than some mediation and such.

Just plain stupidity. As opposed to the creation of a cosmological being being triggered by... political upheaval?

I don't think the Force cares about that shit lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How do you know what that translates into? Vader had 80% of Sidious's power by the same Lucas, and yet Sidious's feats are orders of magnitude superior, so it may not be a linear relationship between potential and what you can do.

Oh

It probably isn't

Thing is though?

Feats no where in the franchise support Anakin, or even the ****ing Ones really, housing all of Sidious and Plagueis' power being directed at the Force for months on end for protracted amounts of time per day

Especially when a much lesser ritual created bullshit like the Valley of the Jedi

Don't recall seeing the Ones demonstrating the power to nuke a solar system *shrugs*

I think the greater good of all life should negatively effect a energy field that is generated BY life, yeah.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I don't think you can apply math to something like that tbh.

Then what are you comparing?

How do you compare this to other ****ers in the franchise?

Its not like they did it in an instant *shrugs*

It took them months targeting the Force with unknown quantities of their power every day

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Oh

It probably isn't

Thing is though?

Feats no where in the franchise support Anakin, or even the ****ing Ones really, housing all of Sidious and Plagueis' power being directed at the Force for months on end for protracted amounts of time per day

Especially when a much lesser ritual created bullshit like the Valley of the Jedi

Don't recall seeing the Ones demonstrating the power to nuke a solar system *shrugs* Holistically speaking the Ones are god-like beings who could destroy the entire galaxy with their powers...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Full Power Anakin > Son + Daughter combined. And would tool TPM Palpatine and Plagueis quite handily.

Altogether I'd say what the Force produced was overkill. mmm

Wasn't that him just channeling Mortis and being able to do so in full because of his Legendary nature? :hmm

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I think the greater good of all life should negatively effect a energy field that is generated BY life, yeah. How did the threat of the Galactic Empire threaten the greater good of all life? Unless the Force has a moral compass now?

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Wasn't that him just channeling Mortis and being able to do so in full because of his Legendary nature? :hmm No more so than the Son or Daughter should have been able to.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Holistically speaking the Ones are god-like beings who could destroy the entire galaxy with their powers...

Oh?

They're "cosmic" threats and threaten to "tear the fabric" of the universe

But how over what period of time, what scale are these tears?

Give me a quote or showing that demonstrates that and I'll consider that powerscaling *shrugs*

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Then what are you comparing?

How do you compare this to other ****ers in the franchise?

Its not like they did it in an instant *shrugs*

It took them months targeting the Force with unknown quantities of their power every day

I don't. I simply mark it as unquantifiable and either ignore it or if there's a relevant quote placing them above other characters I look at how impressive it is holistically and if I deem it to be => then the people the quote places the character above I accept it.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Oh?

They're "cosmic" threats and threaten to "tear the fabric" of the universe

But how over what period of time, what scale are these tears?

Give me a quote or showing that demonstrates that and I'll consider that powerscaling *shrugs*

Ant, Skillz. Is this the guy you said was a really good debater but who looked at Star Wars differently then everybody else and measured things mathematically?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No more so than the Son or Daughter should have been able to.

Clearly could given he was definitively weaker than them in realized power outside his one "Chosen One" showing

So some random element was clearly inserted into the scenario

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Oh?

They're "cosmic" threats and threaten to "tear the fabric" of the universe

But how over what period of time, what scale are these tears?

Give me a quote or showing that demonstrates that and I'll consider that powerscaling *shrugs* We don't know?

But being a cosmic-tier threat makes them beyond Palpatine and Plagueis tbh.Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Clearly could given he was definitively weaker than them in realized power outside his one "Chosen One" showing

So some random element was clearly inserted into the scenario Because he was nowhere near his full potential yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We don't know?

Then why should I care?

They can be anywhere from barely stronger to leagues above without knowing the time frame



Depends on the swathes of universe they can carve up with a given attack *shrugs*

Without that?

Your picture remains incomplete and unsolvable

Plagueis and Palpatine can't carve up swathes of the universe lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because he was nowhere near his full potential yeah.

So, again, he had a random element bolster his ability to channel Mortis above what the Ones appeared able to

Or do you have a quote saying he's outright superior to them on his own at fully realized potential that I'm missing?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plagueis and Palpatine can't carve up swathes of the universe lmao.

Can literally be tears the size of shit Gotenks/Super Buu caused in DB and constitute "tearing the fabric of space"

Holes about the size of people

You're free to assume they're much larger though *shrugs*

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ant, Skillz. Is this the guy you said was a really good debater but who looked at Star Wars differently then everybody else and measured things mathematically?

Wouldn't say I'm good at debate *shrugs*

I do use math due to where I come from forum wise though

Kind of a ***** to do crossover battles without a universal metric for comparison

Incredibly basic physics is our tool for that purpose

Ask Beni

He quoted calcs from NF on TOR for a time when he was doing that "REAL most powerful Force users tier"

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
So, again, he had a random element bolster his ability to channel Mortis above what the Ones appeared able to

Or do you have a quote saying he's outright superior to them on his own at fully realized potential that I'm missing? Being the Chosen One, yeah.Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Can literally be tears the size of shit Gotenks/Super Buu caused in DB and constitute "tearing the fabric of space"

Holes about the size of people

You're free to assume they're much larger though *shrugs* Not sure what your on about tbh but in order to ruin the entire galaxy one is going to need to do more than tear open holes the size of a person.

This isn't even the best argument for Revan, given how much wank Darth Revan gets for his effects on the balance of the Force. But I'll leave that to Ant, we're only just getting started.

I look forward to more LOLs in the future then.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Being the Chosen One, yeah.

Indeed

Who wasn't capable of using his full potential

So what was the compensation other than drawing on Mortis to a more efficient extent than the Ones?



They're about 1 million years old and can teleport

They frankly have all the time in the world to wreak havoc

Huh, this is what being Endless Mike feels like

I'm having fun :hmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I look forward to more LOLs in the future then.

I look forward to more of your incredulous attempts at rebuttals. I.e. that abomination of a counter you posted in my beautiful, and as of yet unchallenged, Valkorion post.

But you'll see soon enough.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This isn't even the best argument for Revan, given how much wank Darth Revan gets for his effects on the balance of the Force. But I'll leave that to Ant, we're only just getting started.
I plan on mentioning that in my rebuttal tonight.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Indeed

Who wasn't capable of using his full potential

So what was the compensation other than drawing on Mortis to a more efficient extent than the Ones?Aside from when Mortis allowed him to.

I mean that's the argument pal, through Mortis, Anakin was able to achieve his maximum potential, with evidently far outstripped the Ones, and what they could do with the nexus themselves.

I'll grant you that off of Mortis, the Ones would stomp, but if through whatever means he was able to access his full potential again, I don't see why they wouldn't be crushed a second time.Fair, but if Plagueis and Palpatine were to fight each other for ages, I don't see the galaxy being ruined.

Again there is a big difference between creating a few wormholes (which Palpatine couldn't even do until RotJ) and destroying the entire galaxy.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I look forward to more of your incredulous attempts at rebuttals. I.e. that abomination of a counter you posted in my beautiful, and as of yet unchallenged, Valkorion post.

But you'll see soon enough. Again, I look forward to it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Aside from when Mortis allowed him to.

Is that what actually happened?

I'm honestly asking because I don't remember at this point

Sorry for cutting out the rest of that post, but until that's answered, I'd just be asking the same question *shrugs*



They don't have their life span, so why would the results be the same?



And nothing says the Ones need to destroy it in an instance

Nothing points to it outside of assumption

They have the longevity to **** up the galaxy over a long period of time, doing it with Sidious' shit would be overkill in their life span *shrugs*

Anyway

Going to have to duck out

I'm an idiot and forgot to do my methods section for my Thesis proposal

Well, not forgot, more avoided

But still :maybe

I'll handle the blasphemers while you're gone.

ILS, your argument is interesting. Interesting in the sense that it rests on a blatant double-standard that is ignored by you and every other member who considers the feat impressive. For whatever reason, you dismiss the quotes provided by the characters in Shadow of Revan, and yet consistently cite the Darth Plagueis novel as an impartial and absolute source. What's funny is that the Darth Plagueis novelization reads from the perspective of a third-person limited narrator that has, perhaps, the most biased pro-Sith view out of any novelization ever pushed in the Star Wars universe. Of course, however, let's ignore that, and yet dismiss characters like Lana Beniko or Spindrall, who have no emotional attachment to their claims and have proven to be masters of farseeing or sense capabilities.



It's absolutely different. Firstly, the other Jedi and Sith didn't feel this. Only Dooku made note of it, principally due to the fact that he shares a connection and history with Savage Opress. Secondly, Dooku merely notes of how Savage Opress is getting stronger and that events are in motion that can threaten him. The characters in Shadow of Revan mention not a character getting stronger, but the disturbance in the Force increasing, encompassing nearly all aspects of the Force to the point where it's potentially affecting the minds of those in the galaxy. Not only is no comparison to be made, but the sheer thought that any parallel can be drawn is horrifying.



Revan's done that by literally resurrecting his corpse from the dead without the use of anything other than his willpower, which is an unrivaled feat in Star Wars. In the cases of Darth Krayt and Darth Maul, those characters never actually died, but rather reached the brink of death. Revan was fully killed and came back to life, as remarked by a number of sources at the event.



This another consistent theme in your post. On how characters like Vitiate "failed" to accomplish this, but Darth Plagueis and Palpatine succeeded.

What Darth Plagueis, and you, fail to realize is that Vitiate never even tried to do this in the first place.



The quote you are referring two doesn't state "absolutely anyone with a connection to the Force," but rather anyone "strong in the Force." Revan's disturbance in the Force, based on all existing evidence we have, falls likewise in the same category. That being said, I have no clue why you're attributing "a chance in pattern" to not a "tangible alteration," because that blatantly fits the description." If something is changed, it is altered. If something is felt, it is tangible. In the case of Revan's unbalancing, The Force was both altered and the result was a tangible recognition of such.



And yet the end result was nearly identical. That's exactly my entire point. Palpatine and Darth Plagueis go through this extensive, elaborate process and yet the end result is still comparable to what Revan is doing by just strolling around. Revan's mere presence is a blatant challenge to the Force, because it constitutes as a threat that is disturbing its very fabric. The disturbance that Revan's mere presence caused was "spread through" the entire galaxy, being felt by both Jedi and Sith alike. And for the final quote, again, this is from the perspective of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine. The fact you actually take that at face value is ridiclous, since we know that the Force did not "yield," since the text earlier makes note that it didn't fight back at all. Palpatine wrongfully assumed that this was due to their sheer power and will, but rather the Force opted to simply create the Chosen One to enact its will against them.



A plethora of sourcebooks also attribute this to the dark side nexus that existed directly below the Jedi Temple, as established by the Legends publication of Force and Destiny.



It's a more impressive display of willpower to directly rise from the dead than to study and gradually manipulate midichlorians over the course of years. I don't know how the former could conceivably be considered more impressive. That being said, the author directly stated in an interview that midichlorian manipulation has nothing to do with power, but rather Darth Plagueis' motivation and determination. Thus, anything involving it doesn't impress me. And that makes sense, too, since The Jedi Path states that *anything* is possible given enough time or concentration. I have no clue why midichlorian manipulation also doesn't fall under that umbrella. What's actually impressive is events where Force-users display their power or will immediately, since it can be translated to combat situations and compared with other characters.



From the perspective of Darth Plagueis.



No, that's wrong. As per Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker's creation was a product of the months of deep meditation, not Darth Plagueis' meddling he did afterwards.



No he hasn't. Darth Maul remarked that the Force felt out-of-balance with the start of the Clone Wars, thus meaning it was seemingly in a state of balance prior. That being stated, again, the biased narrator is not a legitimate source for these absurd claims that "hur, Darth Plagueis cleansed the galaxy of the entire light side!" which is blatantly untrue.

So, really, some key points to establish:

- Midichlorian manipulation has nothing to do with Force power.

- Revan's feat is directly comparable with the unbalancing considering circumstances.

- The narrator of the Darth Plagueis novelization is not omniscient.

- Anakin Skywalker was a product of the duo's war, not Darth Plagueis' solo war.

- Vitiate never attempted to unbalance the Force in the first place.

- Anything is possible given enough time and concentration.

So, in my eyes, you're foaming out the mouth on something that's not impressive. Frankly, if I could list the top hundred most impressive Force feats in history, neither the unbalancing nor midichlorian manipulation makes the list. While I expect you, and anyone else associated with the blasphemous Darth Plagueis Brigade, to completely ignore what the author stated concerning midichlorian manipulation (i.e. that it has nothing to do with power), and likewise completely take everything the Darth Plagueis novel to heart without considering what side is being portrayed there (i.e. that of the Sith), don't expect me to not laugh over it.

Months of energy... only twice the power of one of the people channeling....
Months of energy... only twice the power of one of the people channeling!!!

Originally posted by Trocity
Months of energy... only twice the power of one of the people channeling....
Months of energy... only twice the power of one of the people channeling!!!

Well done my friend, as you establish the premise, I shall supply the killing blow.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-43383-do-it-gif-Star-Wars-revenge-of-h5ES.gif

I'm enjoying the era of Revan.

To add on, a lot of the hype surrounding the feat is the concept that "hey, these two Sith are directly in contest against the Force itself." The text makes it out to be some grandiose, unprecedented thing in which the will of the Force is actually being surpassed. Note, however, that this is coming from the perspective of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis. When recognizing what's actually going on, there doesn't seem to be much of a "battle of wills." It's stated that the Force isn't fighting back, and thus there was never truly a battle. I think a lot of this concept of "battle" was wrongfully assumed by Palpatine and Darth Plagueis out of arrogance and ignorance, especially considering the early stages of the meditation failed to yield results. In reality, I muse the months of deep meditation was merely the two stretching their dark influence and presence across the galaxy. So really, what's insane about this feat is that they thought of the ides in the first place, not that the actual application of it was ridiculous beyond what you would expect of two Vitiate+ Force-users, united a single entity, stretching their power out onto the unsuspecting galaxy without resistance for months.

Revan's really doing the same thing (i.e his power being stretched out across the galaxy, causing the Force to shift and change to a state of unbalance and turmoil), but the distinction is he's not spending months of deep meditation doing it, nor does he have another Revan to aid him. The extent at which the Force was affected is blatantly moreso for Darth Plagueis and Palpatine, but given the circumstances just stated, it's evident that if Revan would have meditated for the duration they did that similar results would have yielded. Thus, like ChaosTheory123 elaborated in his analysis of the energy output, it's a significantly underwhelming feat. All this talk of "waging a war with the Force" and this and that is greatly exaggerated when actually looked at from an impartial perspective (which the Darth Plagueis novel doesn't provide with the direct narration).

Damn, way to crush the opposition. The era of Revan draws near.

Savage Opress level feat.

Did you read his post? He just proved they aren't even close.

Thought one liners was KMC for trolling and no commitment to getting involved in a thread tbh *shrugs*

Because my impression of Wolf as a debater in general is a higher caliber than that in a scenario he's actually debating anyway *shrugs*

Well, this should be fun.

Ant, you've actually yet to prove that a disturbance in the Force is the same as a sweeping cosmological imbalance.

LOL @ Revan dying and coming back to life but Krayt merely reaching the "brink of death".

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ant, you've actually yet to prove that a disturbance in the Force is the same as a sweeping cosmological imbalance. In a nutshell.Originally posted by SunRazer
LOL @ Revan dying and coming back to life but Krayt merely reaching the "brink of death". This also came to mind for me. The implication was that Krayt conquered death.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ant, you've actually yet to prove that a disturbance in the Force is the same as a sweeping cosmological imbalance.
If something is disturbed, it's not in a state of balance. The entire concept of a Force disturbance is a temporary unbalancing, generally in a localized area. Some Force disturbances, such as the rise of Darth Maul or the destruction of Alderaan, is capable of stretching across the galaxy, but generally only in a flash. In the case of Revan, it started off as a seemingly localized, minimal threat, but nevertheless detectable to Force-sensitizes. Then it expanded until it was felt across the galaxy, affecting the current of the Force and possibly even the minds of its inhabitants. A prolonged, powerful, and constant Force disturbance is an unbalancing of the Force. That's the entire point.

And yet, no Chosen One, no diminished ability to use the Force, etc.

Revan didn't unbalance it in either direction, hence no diminishing of either side. And the Force did seem to act to ensure his downfall. It's not like it had time to birth a Chosen One and wait for it to grow up and defeat Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If something is disturbed, it's not in a state of balance. The entire concept of a Force disturbance is a temporary unbalancing, generally in a localized area. Some Force disturbances, such as the rise of Darth Maul or the destruction of Alderaan, is capable of stretching across the galaxy, but generally only in a flash. In the case of Revan, it started off as a seemingly localized, minimal threat, but nevertheless detectable to Force-sensitizes. Then it expanded until it was felt across the galaxy, affecting the current of the Force and possibly even the minds of its inhabitants. A prolonged, powerful, and constant Force disturbance is an unbalancing of the Force. That's the entire point.

And yet Sidious's influence on the balance of the Force is consistently distinguished from disturbances in the Force, which are a dime a dozen in the lore and vary only in relative magnitude.

You've proven that Revan is the cause of a potent disturbance in the Force, which no one disputes. That's not the same as what Sidious did.

I wonder if anyone has a response to this.Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway given that Valkorion failed to achieve a similar disturbance I'm inclined to believe this has more to do with Revan becoming an aberration than his mighty powah.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Is that what actually happened?

I'm honestly asking because I don't remember at this point

Sorry for cutting out the rest of that post, but until that's answered, I'd just be asking the same question *shrugs*Obi-Wan told Anakin to use the power of the planet, he did so and then dominated both of them, the Father claimed that what he did proved he was the Chosen One.

Go figure I guess.

Evidently he was able to harness more powerful than the Son and Daughter could, which makes him better in my books.

I'm saying that if they did.

And they don't need to. Funnily enough most beings couldn't even dream of destroying the galaxy, even with infinite time to do it in.

Nah, they simply could not. If you have proof to the contrary I'm all ears.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Thought one liners was KMC for trolling and no commitment to getting involved in a thread tbh *shrugs*

Because my impression of Wolf as a debater in general is a higher caliber than that in a scenario he's actually debating anyway *shrugs*

I generally just troll around here. And mostly on ComicVine, actually. People are either too sensitive, too dense, or rarely ever online/rarely ever disagree with me for me to actually have a proper debate.

mmm

Originally posted by MythLord
rarely ever disagree with me for me to actually have a proper debate.

mmm
Kun > Vader.

Originally posted by ILS
This also came to mind for me. The implication was that Krayt conquered death.
Not to side with Ant in this pile of retardation, but pretty sure Legacy blatantly says Krayt wasn't actually dead.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not to side with Ant in this pile of retardation, but pretty sure Legacy blatantly says Krayt wasn't actually dead. It does, even though Krayt would have us believe otherwise.

..kind of the same with deranged!Revan.

The nexus below the temple can't account for the Galaxy wide clouding, nor does it contradict it.

Also nice to see ILS back.

Good to be back. Probably going to be intermittent from here on out though.

The existence and influence of the Sith shrine below the Jedi temple is a canon development that originated from unproduced Clone Wars storylines, was brought into canon by Jim Luceno's 2014 book Tarkin, and has been regurgitated in the Force & Destiny campaign guides, which are Legends books written from a canon perspective.

So what you're saying Temp, is that Force and Destiny is more of a composite source with some canon, some legends shit?

Like the new fact files that apparently are supposed to be canon, but have a retarded amount of legends shit that isn't actually canon?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So what you're saying Temp, is that Force and Destiny is more of a composite source with some canon, some legends shit?

Like the new fact files that apparently are supposed to be canon, but have a retarded amount of legends shit that isn't actually canon?

Pablo Hidalgo says F&D is Legends and has a metric shitton of Legends information in it. But the book also frames Legends as actual legends, with various disclaimers about their veracity..

The Fact Files are definitely Legends and treat it all as one unified mythology.

Originally posted by ILS
It does, even though Krayt would have us believe otherwise.

..kind of the same with deranged!Revan.
True, true. The idea that BioWare tried to roll with is that Revan's body is actually dead, and his "spirit" is just moving it around on. It's not really what I'd call impressive, though, because it doesn't make any sense.

My respect for Revan continues to increase, but ILS is doing a good job here. Perhaps he should try and raise the respect level for Maul back to it's original pedestal.

Wow, ILS.
TOR brigade will likely do an hero soon.

He's arguing against Ant on the Revan topic, don't get so excited.

But he is mother****ing ILS.

I had past ILS as a top tier debater, but in more recent times lowered him because I thought he had declined. It seems I was wrong, and now have a newfound respect and appreciation for his debating ability.

@ILS


1. You need to understand that that is from the perspective of Darth Plagueis.

2. Darth Plagueis was not a historian. It is not wise to take his knowledge as all-encompassing or even close.

3. Ancient Sith adopted different methods to attain immortality:

TO THE SITH, life is conflict. All living things struggle against the bonds that restrict them, and grow stronger for it. To refuse the inevitability of death, and hold on to one's hard-earned power forever, is a proposition many Sith have found impossible to resist. Over the years, Sith have employed cybernetics, dark sciences, and other unsavory techniques in pursuit of eternal life. And when life fails them, Sith persist through their sheer force of will. Holocrons bear their visage and teachings for eternity, while some Sith even break the restraints of death itself to wreak havoc as Force apparitions.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Darth Plagueis seemingly took the art of Midichlorian Manipulation to the next level but this was far from certain:

If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Very telling.

Kindly explore the stories of Darth(s) Drear and Scabrous. They adopted the path of dark sciences to attain immortality.


You need to understand that:

More than any others, it is the Force-sensitive beings of the galaxy who have the greatest influence upon the balance of the Force.

Taken from Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook

Even normal beings can influence the balance of the Force through their actions:

Amid this discussion of the Jedi and Sith, it is worth noting that the Force is not set apart solely for interaction with those who can directly manipulate it. All sentient beings can choose to act in life-affirming or destructive ways. Most view their actions (and lapses) within the moral code of their species or world, or in keeping with personal creed. This does not mean that they are not acted upon by the Force, or that their actions do not contribute to the balance between the light and dark.

Taken from Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook

Therefore, if corruption and/or criminal acts become the norm in many worlds, such acts would - collectively - influence the balance of the Force. This influence will not be intentional but it will make difference nonetheless. However, same revelation has another point; that all living beings can influence the balance of the Force through their actions, and that this influence need not be intentional.

Darth(s) Plagueis and Sidious (actively) sought to tilt the balance of the Force towards the Dark Side in their era. The outcome of their effort only reinforces the notion that Force-sensitive beings can have a more profound impact on the balance of the Force than normal beings.

Now, as pointed out by member DarthAnt66 in this thread, Revan made his presence felt across the galaxy by disturbing (the balance of) the Force, after his resurrection. Of-course, several Force-sensitive beings make us (audience) aware of this development in the game.

---

Now, coming towards Valkorion; logically, some of his actions should have caused significant disturbance in the Force, and he was also powerful enough to unbalance the Force. However, TOR content writers seem to overlook this aspect in their works. I am not in the position to speak of behalf of TOR content writers here but I have some observations to share.

A large number of Jedi and Sith co-existed in ancient times. Therefore, such footprint implies an unintentional tug-of-war that would prevent the pendulum to swing in favor of one side for long.

The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

In addition to the above, Valkorion was not interested in making his presence felt across the galaxy or intentionally shift the balance of the Force. A major concern was that the Jedi would sense disturbance of such magnitude and respond to it. Valkorion wanted to conceal his activities from the Republic (and) the Jedi Order for as long as he deemed it necessary.

There are so many variables to consider.

Revan willing himself back to life is the greatest willpower feat in Star Wars?

Palpatine did that without a Force connection.

LeGenD making great points, honestly.

I'll respond in full when I get home.

@ILS


So Darth Plagueis achieved unparalleled mastery over life and death according to you? Where is the evidence, my friend?

Darth Plagueis reanimated the corpse of Darth Venamis but this reanimation did not last long (ergo the organs of reanimated Darth Venamis were not functioning properly and eventually faltered). And the former could not cheat or circumvent death either, when it really mattered.

On the other hand, both Revan and Valkorion cheated death. Revan did it once but Valkorion time and again. The latter also had the ability to create life (e.g. Monoliths).

Valkorion achieved unparalleled mastery over life and death; his showings are self-explanatory in these aspects.

Originally posted by Azronger
Revan willing himself back to life is the greatest willpower feat in Star Wars?

Palpatine did that without a Force connection.

Not even the same feat

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not even the same feat

Obviously not. Palpatine's is infinitely better.

Originally posted by Azronger
Obviously not. Palpatine's is infinitely better.
FYI:

Sate Pestage, an agent of Palpatine, is stated to have a role in resurrecting Palpatine after his corporeal demise during the Battle of Endor. The source is Dark Empire III: Empire's End.

Palpatine used Sith spirits on Korriban. That's hardly something you do without a connection to the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ILS


So Darth Plagueis achieved unparalleled mastery over life and death according to you? Where is the evidence, my friend?

Darth Plagueis reanimated the corpse of Darth Venamis but this reanimation did not last long (ergo the organs of reanimated Darth Venamis were not functioning properly and eventually faltered). And the former could not cheat or circumvent death either, when it really mattered.

On the other hand, both Revan and Valkorion cheated death. Revan did it once but Valkorion time and again. The latter also had the ability to create life (e.g. Monoliths).

Valkorion achieved unparalleled mastery over life and death; his showings are self-explanatory in these aspects.

The Dread Masters could also bring others back from the dead, to a far greater extent than Plagueis did.

Lmao. I'm talking about when he's literally severed off the Force in DE by the Skywalker twins, then has his entire body with all its midi-chlorians obliterated by his dimension-altering Force Storms, yet he's on the other side of the galaxy, alive and more powerful than ever in DE II.

He literally crossed the thousands of light-years of distance between Da Soocha and Byss, while dead, as a non-Force sensitive, in the span of a few weeks/months.

Palpatine's will trancends the use of the Force.

Originally posted by Azronger
Lmao. I'm talking about when he's literally severed off the Force in DE by the Skywalker twins, then has his entire body with all its midi-chlorians obliterated by his dimension-altering Force Storms, yet he's on the other side of the galaxy, alive and more powerful than ever in DE II.

He literally crossed the thousands of light-years of distance between Da Soocha and Byss, while dead, as a non-Force sensitive, in the span of a few weeks/months.

Palpatine's will trancends the use of the Force.
What you are saying literally makes no sense.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
What you are saying literally makes no sense.

Star Wars rarely does.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
What you are saying literally makes no sense.

To you it doesn't, but it's a fair point.

Anyone who uses Essense Transfer can go lightspeed+

one of the perks of being bound to the physical realm.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Anyone who uses Essense Transfer can go lightspeed+

Source?

Originally posted by Azronger
Source?

I'm not sure if all sith spirits could do it, but Freedon Nadd was following Kun around across System's, and his spirit almost certainly wasn't lingering around on Kun's starship.

Why not?

Regarding Force spirits however, the most classical example would be ghost-Obi Wan appearing in the amount of places he appeared during the original trilogy. Died on the Death Star, appeared on Hoth, then Degobah and finally on Endor with Yoda and Anakin - Force spirits just don't seem to be bound to the laws of the universe.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm not sure if all sith spirits could do it, but Freedon Nadd was following Kun around across System's, and his spirit almost certainly wasn't lingering around on Kun's starship.

That's Fold Space (and yes, all spirits can do it). Essence Transfer is a different power.

Originally posted by Azronger
That's Fold Space (and yes, all spirits can do it). Essence Transfer is a different power.

I'm pretty sure it isn't fold space. That's a learned technique from the Aing Ting tribe.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm pretty sure it isn't fold space. That's a learned technique from the Aing Ting tribe.

Teleportation, then. It sure as hell isn't Essence Transfer, which has nothing to do with moving around places quickly.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Kun > Vader.

Nah.

Originally posted by ILS
I remember that. Lmao. Usain Bolt runs a faster 100m than Orbalisk Bane.
That wasn't Orbalisk Bane

Originally posted by MythLord
Nah.
So u disagree.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So u disagree.

Yes, but you're not worth my time just yet, apprentice.