Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This was an argument addressed on another topic, but it was relevant enough for a topic solely devoted to the discussion.

In short, nothing states that Anakin Skywalker was actually born from the meditation ritual besides the silent musings of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis.

Thus, it's not confirmed fact. However, what is confirmed fact is everything read below.

---

Anakin Skywalker was born in 41.9 BBY.

Assuming 3:4:14 ArS is 32.0 BBY, then Anakin Skywalker is 9 years, 10 months, and 24 days old of The Phantom Menace.

Note that the above isn't critical to this discussion, but it's worth noting.

The Yinchorri Uprising took place in 33.0 BBY.

In the Darth Plagueis novel, it states that the duo's meditation took place 8 years prior to the event.

Thus, the meditation occurred roughly around 41 BBY.

Even if we assume the mental war took place the earliest it possibly could (i.e. a day short of 42 BBY), the math doesn't add up.

After all, Anakin Skywalker would have been *conceived* well into 42 BBY (likely around 42.7 BBY).

Also, if we make note of the ArS timeline established above, then Anakin Skywalker would have been conceived a full year before it happened.

Thus, we have Anakin Skywalker being conceived numerous months after the latest possible time the meditation could have occurred.

In other words, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's war never gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Something else did.

Rock solid.

We will never know...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rock solid.

Final nail in the coffin for the Plagueis Brigade, tbh.

*Implying the TOR phags have even gotten hold of a hammer.

I'm sorry. I'm not understanding your math.

The meditation took place sometime in 41BBY. Anakin was born sometime in the same year.

What does 3:4:14 ArS mean and what is it referring to? Is that how you got Anakin's age by TPM ( 9 years, 10 months, and 24 days old ). If so could you link the source? I mean, even if you're right this is obviously still a simple mistake on Luceno's part but I want to confirm that you actually are beforehand.

Also could you provide the source for Anakin being born in 41.9 BBY rather then just 41 BBY? Thanks.

Anakin Skywalker was born 41.9 BBY. He was conceived, (very, very) likely, sometime in 42 BBY.

In contrast, Darth Plagueis's meditation would have occurred around 41.0 BBY, and definitely before 41.5 BBY.

Thus, Anakin Skywalker could not have possibly been the production of the duo's meditation.

BrS / ArS is a Star Wars dating system like BBY / ABY. The difference is it specifies the month and day too.

And no, I got the age you listed (i.e. the nine years one) but calculating what age 41.9 to 32.0 would yield.

http://web.archive.org/web/20111119032510/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/13

How do we know what part of 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis began in? Or that "Eight years" isn't just an approximation?

It seems weirdly specific for James Luceno to put that whole thing in there, date it within at least the accuracy of a year, have the text of the Plagueis novel point to it being a result of their actions, only for it to be contradicted by some technicality that for it to contradict the point would be dependent on when exactly in 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis took place.

Someone should contact Luceno about this for clarification, because it's a little sketchy.

Why? Why does being born in 41.9 mean he would have to have been concieved in 42?

The time the meditation occurred is left unspecified. It simply says 8 years before 33 meaning sometime in 41.

Already addressed the "approximate" quote being built to address things like this. Regardless just to entertain this what does .9 equate to in regards to IRL months/years?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
How do we know what part of 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis began in? Or that "Eight years" isn't just an approximation?

It seems weirdly specific for James Luceno to put that whole thing in there, date it within at least the accuracy of a year, have the text of the Plagueis novel point to it being a result of their actions, only for it to be contradicted by some technicality that for it to contradict the point would be dependent on when exactly in 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis took place.

Someone should contact Luceno about this for clarification, because it's a little sketchy.

As soon as I get his contact info I'll do so. Ask him "So it was Plagueis and Sidious's combined assault on the Force that caused Anakin's birth?" I'll post the answer on the forums.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
How do we know what part of 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis began in? Or that "Eight years" isn't just an approximation?

It seems weirdly specific for James Luceno to put that whole thing in there, date it within at least the accuracy of a year, have the text of the Plagueis novel point to it being a result of their actions, only for it to be contradicted by some technicality that for it to contradict the point would be dependent on when exactly in 33 BBY the Yinchorri Crisis took place.

Someone should contact Luceno about this for clarification, because it's a little sketchy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I already addressed it.

Again, The New Essential Chronology attributes either a 0.0 or a 0.5 decimal point to non-battle dates.

For proof of this, refer to all of the data entries of the modern era, and you will see them being used.

The lack of usage of a 0.5 decimal (and thus having 31.5) means that it took place closer to 31.0.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why? Why does being born in 41.9 mean he would have to have been concieved in 42?

The time the meditation occurred is left unspecified. It simply says 8 years before 33 meaning sometime in 41.

Already addressed the "approximate" quote being built to address things like this. Regardless just to entertain this what does .9 equate to in regards to IRL months/years?
Because unless he was in Shimi's womb for only two months, he would have been been conceived in 42 BBY.

I factor in that. If you read my analysis, I assume the meditation took place for a year, which is the best possible scenario for Plagueis.

It means he was born in the tenth month, twenty fourth day (or around that, since it was approximating).

Because normal development time for a child is about 9 months or 0.75 years. Regardless, it's sorta a moot point. Anakin was conceived by the Force to balance the Force. Plags and Palpatine were the ones to unbalance it.

The entire point of my argument is that Anakin was born prior to the unbalancing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because unless he was in Shimi's womb for only two months, he would have been been conceived in 42 BBY.

I factor in that. If you read my analysis, I assume the meditation took place for a year, which is the best possible scenario for Plagueis.

It means he was born in the tenth month, twenty fourth day (or around that, since it was approximating).

So it's unconfirmed given we don't know how long Shmi carried Anakin for.

Granted she never mentioned Anakin being born in an abnormally short period so I can understand your view.

The difference here is that I wouldn't base my stance off a single source that lists Anakin's birth as 41.9 where it prefaces that the dates are "approximate" beforehand.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The entire point of my argument is that Anakin was born prior to the unbalancing.

Sure. I got that. But I fail to see the importance of it. The Force "knows" the future anyway. That it created its agent of balance before the unbalancing doesn't change the fact that it created him to fix the unbalancing caused by Plags and Palpatine. Either way, Anakin was conceived in "response" to the Sith's actions.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
So it's unconfirmed given we don't know how long Shmi carried Anakin for.

Granted she never mentioned Anakin being born in an abnormally short period so I can understand your view.

The difference here is that I wouldn't base my stance off a single source that lists Anakin's birth as 41.9 where it prefaces that the dates are "approximate" beforehand.

No, my point stands either way since the crisis happened prior to 33.5 BBY.

Another work has the BrS year for Anakin Skywalker, which is 7:4 BrS.

So, as per that source, Anakin was born 42.4 BBY.

That's even more crushing in my favor.

So really, if you want to dispute it, it's best to take the 41.9.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. I got that. But I fail to see the importance of it. The Force "knows" the future anyway. That it created its agent of balance before the unbalancing doesn't change the fact that it created him to fix the unbalancing caused by Plags and Palpatine. Either way, Anakin was conceived in "response" to the Sith's actions.
Except there's no indication the Force responded to that. I find it more likely the Force responded to the shift that came with Plagueis' death, which was even more powerful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, my point stands either way since the crisis happened prior to 33.5 BBY.

Another work has the BrS year for Anakin Skywalker, which is 7:4 BrS.

So, as per that source, Anakin was born 42.4 BBY.

That's even more crushing in my favor.

So really, if you want to dispute it, it's best to take the 41.9.

And you base that off of a source book saying that unspecified dates occur within the 0.0-0.5 of that years when that is undoubtedly contradicted throughout the lore.

42.9* And as I mentioned it was prefaced beforehand with the word "approximate."

No if I want to dispute it I'll simply ask Luceno to clarify. When he does you'll stick to your rhetoric as you try to say Luceno's statement is irrelevant based off examples of other author's having made questionable statements in the past. Everybody with any common sense will accept what's evident and you'll go back to scheming plots to wank Revan and bring down his competition. It's pretty simple.

Yeah seriously someone ask Luceno lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except there's no indication the Force responded to that. I find it more likely the Force responded to the shift that came with Plagueis' death, which was even more powerful.

Been awhile since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure the shift represents Palpatine becoming the master of the dark side and not a further unbalancing of the force. Otherwise, fair enough.

Originally posted by ares834
Been awhile since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure the shift represents Palpatine becoming the master of the dark side and not a further unbalancing of the force. Otherwise, fair enough.



Credit to Azronger.

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/dates10.jpg

The above source demonstrates what I mean by the 0.0 to 0.5 scale, for those who were confused.

As displayed, 0.5 dates are provided when necessary. In the case of the Uprising, none is.

Thus, I conclude that the event happened closer to 33 BBY than 33.5 BBY. This distinction is relevant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Credit to Azronger.

Yeah, it still reads as if the shift is the mastery shifting to him rather than a further unbalancing.

Palpatine remarked how "the Force had shifted irrevocably" with his ascension, so it seemed to be both.

Point is that it's ambiguous enough that we can't say for certain.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

No if I want to dispute it I'll simply ask Luceno to clarify. When he does you'll stick to your rhetoric as you try to say Luceno's statement is irrelevant based off examples of other author's having made questionable statements in the past. Everybody with any common sense will accept what's evident and you'll go back to scheming plots to wank Revan and bring down his competition. It's pretty simple.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-07/24/12/enhanced/webdr07/anigif_enhanced-22511-1406218922-34.gif

I have no idea how to interpret that gif lol

Still, you haven't truly experienced Fated Xtasy on a certain day if you haven't seen him make a post with a gif of a white female

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I have no idea how to interpret that gif lol

Still, you haven't truly experienced Fated Xtasy on a certain day if you haven't seen him make a post with a gif of a white female

Interpret it as me being shocked over Syn talking to Ant in such a way. Last time It lead to stuff so lol.

Also. Shush up. My gifs are perfect.

Ant can get me banned if he likes. It would only prove my point.

Well. Luceno seems to have dissapeared off the face of the Earth.

Next best thing but I'll continue digging.

http://imgur.com/JcAQkQs

It's almost like the whole point of the Darth Plagueis novel is to explain the key events prior to the movies and isn't subject to retcon because Luceno's description of dates falls out of line by a matter of months with a reference book that is literally full of minor errors.

Then again, maybe it was just a huge coincidence that the Chosen One was born in relative simultaneity with Plagueis' war against the Force. Yes, perhaps something even more important than Sidious and his master challenging the Force for sovereignty went on at the same time and there just wasn't enough budget to make the book happen.

Holy shit lol. I don't know how anyone could class this as a victory. At best it would be a pyrrhic one, given that the original topic of debate as proposed by Ant himself has been abandoned in favour of nitpicking for technicalities. Either way, the point of Plagueis' superiority being ironclad has just been verified by this colossal switching of goalposts.

Holy ****, I just realized that in a sense, the Banite line killed the Ones.

It's philosophy created a cyclical evolution through turning conflict into a process for improvement, which lead to Plagueis and Sidious, who unbalanced the Force in favor of the Dark Side, which is around when the Father really lost control over the Son and started dying. Said imbalance also lead to the birth of Anakin. And between Anakin's actions and the Son acting against the Father, the Ones all died.

Then of course, Anakin also ended the Banite line which caused the imbalance to begin with.

Then Luke was there after the fact, to rebuild the Jedi Order, to give stability to a Galaxy reeling from war and tyranny, and built that philosophy on love rather than emotional detachment, which ended up leading to him acting in the interests of the Galaxy, and when he ran into Abeloth he was willing to team up with Sith for the greater good. He was also tempted with the Font of Power and saw his own sacrifices in the Pool of Knowledge, ultimately realizing and trusting the Jedi Order he had created to continue in their mission. He decided that with the Ones death, the Sith and Jedi must take their place in maintaining the balance of the Galaxy, and sent a team of Jedi to hunt for the Dagger of Mortis to kill Abeloth if she ever returned.

After realizing this, I now have a deeper appreciation for Banite and Lukean philosophy than I did before, as well as just the philosophy of SW in general. The Banite principal of developing strength through hardship and conflict by transforming that negativity into a process for improvement and the Lukean understanding that even if most emotions can be misleading love is a guiding force that can give you meaning and purpose, both of which are philosophies I've come to truly understand and embrace in the past week.

Well, what happens on Mortis appears to reflect what happens in reality. And the fact that the Son gained unprecedented strength/unruliness is just further attestation to the fact that Plagueis/Sidious represented the culmination of the Sith.

Edited with more depth and time covering and personal beliefs and shit.

Nice analysis, DMB.

Thanks, I'm currently working on giving it it's entire topic.

Originally posted by ILS
It's almost like the whole point of the Darth Plagueis novel is to explain the key events prior to the movies and isn't subject to retcon because Luceno's description of dates falls out of line by a matter of months with a reference book that is literally full of minor errors.

Then again, maybe it was just a huge coincidence that the Chosen One was born in relative simultaneity with Plagueis' war against the Force. Yes, perhaps something even more important than Sidious and his master challenging the Force for sovereignty went on at the same time and there just wasn't enough budget to make the book happen.

Holy shit lol. I don't know how anyone could class this as a victory. At best it would be a pyrrhic one, given that the original topic of debate as proposed by Ant himself has been abandoned in favour of nitpicking for technicalities. Either way, the point of Plagueis' superiority being ironclad has just been verified by this colossal switching of goalposts.

Originally posted by ILS
It's almost like the whole point of the Darth Plagueis novel is to explain the key events prior to the movies and isn't subject to retcon because Luceno's description of dates falls out of line by a matter of months with a reference book that is literally full of minor errors.

Then again, maybe it was just a huge coincidence that the Chosen One was born in relative simultaneity with Plagueis' war against the Force. Yes, perhaps something even more important than Sidious and his master challenging the Force for sovereignty went on at the same time and there just wasn't enough budget to make the book happen.

Holy shit lol. I don't know how anyone could class this as a victory. At best it would be a pyrrhic one, given that the original topic of debate as proposed by Ant himself has been abandoned in favour of nitpicking for technicalities. Either way, the point of Plagueis' superiority being ironclad has just been verified by this colossal switching of goalposts.
No. Anakin was born at xx.xx.xx.xx, that means he was conceived 1 second before the Ritual.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This was an argument addressed on another topic, but it was relevant enough for a topic solely devoted to the discussion.

In short, nothing states that Anakin Skywalker was actually born from the meditation ritual besides the silent musings of Palpatine and Darth Plagueis.

Thus, it's not confirmed fact. However, what is confirmed fact is everything read below.

---

Anakin Skywalker was born in 41.9 BBY.

Assuming 3:4:14 ArS is 32.0 BBY, then Anakin Skywalker is 9 years, 10 months, and 24 days old of The Phantom Menace.

Note that the above isn't critical to this discussion, but it's worth noting.

The Yinchorri Uprising took place in 33.0 BBY.

In the Darth Plagueis novel, it states that the duo's meditation took place 8 years prior to the event.

Thus, the meditation occurred roughly around 41 BBY.

Even if we assume the mental war took place the earliest it possibly could (i.e. a day short of 42 BBY), the math doesn't add up.

After all, Anakin Skywalker would have been *conceived* well into 42 BBY (likely around 42.7 BBY).

Also, if we make note of the ArS timeline established above, then Anakin Skywalker would have been conceived a full year before it happened.

Thus, we have Anakin Skywalker being conceived numerous months after the latest possible time the meditation could have occurred.

In other words, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's war never gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Something else did. Big fan of Ant, but I highly highly highly highly doubt any author ever put this level of thought into something as minute as the specific dates. Honestly, the argument should stop at "There's no proof of Anakins' conception being in response to Plagueis/Palpatine's meditation" (which, due to colorful language used to make reading a lot more evocative, a lot of people have made out to be something a lot bigger than ever intended).

We can ask Luceno, and we know what he'll say - though Ant's regard of authorial intent seems to be highly selective.

In either case, why should we assume that the pregnancy lasted nine months? The Force would clearly not be bound by such a limitation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We can ask Luceno, and we know what he'll say - though Ant's regard of authorial intent seems to be highly selective.

In either case, why should we assume that the pregnancy lasted nine months? The Force would clearly not be bound by such a limitation.
I don't much care for the dates discussion, but I'll address your question.

I think the burden of proof would belong to the side attempting to suggest that the force expedited the pregnancy. If the timing were so crucial to the force, why stop there? Why not continue to expedite his growth after he was born as well? Perhaps make him a full functioning adult ready to bring balance to the force by the time TPM begins? The Force would clearly not be bound by such limitations. Unless we have evidence to indicate that Anakin's body was developing at an expedited rate, I see no reason to entertain such discussion. As it stands, Anakin body developed at a normal rate and he didn't bring balance to the force until multiple decades after his birth. Our good friend occam's razor tells us timing was not an issue for the force to meddle with.

Is there some kind of point trying to be made here, with discussing Anakin's birth timing? Cause I'm not really seeing the point.

Yes. Ant tries to prove, that Anakin wasn't created as result of the Balanceshift caused by Plagueis and Sidious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In either case, why should we assume that the pregnancy lasted nine months? The Force would clearly not be bound by such a limitation.
That's not necessary for the math.

Ant. You realize how arbitrary this is?

I think Shmi would have mentioned if she gave birth in a few weeks, lol. Or that would be brought up somewhere. Seems like the kind of thing that would be notable.

She didn't say that's a Anakin was a virgin birth until Qui Gon asked.

In other words, the Son could only beat the Father with Palpatine's help. Nice theory.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
She didn't say that's a Anakin was a virgin birth until Qui Gon asked.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not necessary for the math.

Originally posted by ILS
Either way, the point of Plagueis' superiority being ironclad has just been verified by this colossal switching of goalposts.
How?

There's absolutely no evidence that Darth Plagueis had anything to do with the creation of the Chosen One.

To assume such is complete and utter speculation.

And don't think I'm not going to respond to your blasphemy concerning Revan either, ILS.

You're assuming that Plagueis and Sidious didn't accomplish what they are blatantly shown to because of a simple dating error.

How can you act like other people are being unreasonable when you actively search out inconsistencies to serve your own bias?

No, that's another thing. Only Palpatine and Darth Plaguies muse the possibility that the war created Anakin, and even then they weren't sure.

Why would he have included Plagueis and Sidious unbalancing the Force around the exact timeline Anakin was born only to leave it ambiguous?

Both Anakin's birth and the when the meditation occurred is left ambiguous with Anakin's birth date being "approximate" and Plagueis and Sidious's meditation never being specified apart from "roughly 8 years" before an event in 33 BBY.

It makes absolutely no sense to apply a quote that says any non combat related event in the mythos occurred in the first half of the year if the specific date is left ambiguous. We have innumerable dates that are left ambiguous and it's illogical that they all applied in that first half simply because a source made that claim. You can't pretend authors have ultra awareness in regards to all SW sources. What even implies that the quote is supposed to be applied to dates outside ones that appear in the source itself?

Even if the quote were to apply how do you know 41.9 isn't simply the date being counted up rather then down. I.E. a little longer and it would have become 40 BBY rather then a little sooner and it would have been 42 BBY. It makes far more sense to have been the former and the date having been given a specific decimal unlike any of the other dates to confirm that yes it was Plagueis and Sidious's meditation which caused it. What other out of universe reason would there have been for giving him a specific decimal point like that different from all the other characters?

I assume you never actually read the book, but if you would have, you would realize that the alleged unbalancing was not a major part of the book. It was only described once when Darth Plaguies glossed over it in his musings. The fundamental part of the book, the midichlorian manipulation, is featured far more and in-depth.

You already stated this, but it's clear you don't know what it means. Anakin Skywalker's birth has been provided by two seperate sources, in which one of them give the exact year, month, and day of birth. The other provides merely a year and the approximate month, hence Chee's comment it was an approximation. That being established, we know when the meditation occurred too, in which it was after 41.5 BBY.

It's frankly annoying you continue to post in this thread. I don't even think you know what BBY and ABY is, and I really doubt you know anything about the timeline. I'm getting tired of your insults and your questions that I have already answered. I recommend conceding the issue and letting other members press the point.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


Even if the quote were to apply how do you know 41.9 isn't simply the date being counted up rather then down. I.E. a little longer and it would have become 40 BBY rather then a little sooner it being 42 BBY. It makes far more sense to have been the former and the date having been given a specific decimal unlike any of the other dates to confirm that yes it was Plagueis and Sidious's meditation which caused it.
To clarify to the reader, I didn't see this in my post. This, however, confirms that he has no clue how BBY and ABY works. BBY goes down to zero. ABY goes up from zero. The fact I have to specify makes me inclined to believe you should just stop.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I assume you never actually read the book, but if you would have, you would realize that the alleged unbalancing was not a major part of the book. It was only described once when Darth Plaguies glossed over it in his musings. The fundamental part of the book, the midichlorian manipulation, is featured far more and in-depth.

You already stated this, but it's clear you don't know what it means. Anakin Skywalker's birth has been provided by two seperate sources, in which one of them give the exact year, month, and day of birth. The other provides merely a year and the approximate month, hence Chee's comment it was an approximation. That being established, we know when the meditation occurred too, in which it was prior to 41.5 BBY.

It's frankly annoying you continue to post in this thread. I don't even think you know what BBY and ABY is, and I really doubt you know anything about the timeline. I'm getting tired of your insults and your questions that I have already answered. I recommend conceding the issue and letting other members press the point.

I have read the book and its companion piece "The Tenebrous Way" which notes that it's Plagueis's actions which will bring about the anomaly known as the Chosen One. The entire point of Tenebrous taking on Plagueis as an apprentice and feeding his insecurities in regards to immortality so that he would focus his efforts in this area was so that the anomaly could be born and so that he could inhabit its body and become the most powerful force user who ever lived.

No we don't. Unless you can prove that the quote you're using to justify the meditation taking place around that time applies to all dates outside of the source itself you have no leg to stand on.

I'm honestly angry at you because you don't give a shit about actually understanding the lore or intent of its authors. All you care about is wanking a single character beyond reasonable levels to suit your own personal bias and gain personal prestige within the community. You're honestly a bit of a scumbag and it sickens me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I assume you never actually read the book, but if you would have, you would realize that the alleged unbalancing was not a major part of the book. It was only described once when Darth Plaguies glossed over it in his musings. The fundamental part of the book, the midichlorian manipulation, is featured far more and in-depth.Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm honestly angry at you because you don't give a shit about actually understanding the lore or intent of its authors. All you care about is wanking a single character beyond reasonable levels to suit your own personal bias and and gain personal prestige within the community. You're honestly a bit of a scumbag and it sickens me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To clarify to the reader, I didn't see this in my post. This, however, confirms that he has no clue how BBY and ABY works. BBY goes down to zero. ABY goes up from zero. The fact I have to specify makes me inclined to believe you should just stop.

The fact that this thread exists makes me inclined to believe you should stop being apart of this community entirely since you obviously don't care about anything other then twisting information to suit your agenda.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm honestly angry at you because you don't give a shit about actually understanding the lore or intent of its authors. All you care about is wanking a single character beyond reasonable levels to suit your own personal bias and and gain personal prestige within the community. You're honestly a bit of a scumbag and it sickens me.
https://i.imgflip.com/1dl7vv.gif

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I have read the book and its companion piece "The Tenebrous Way" which notes that it's Plagueis's actions which will bring about the anomaly known as the Chosen One. The entire point of Tenebrous taking on Plagueis as an apprentice and feeding his insecurities in regards to immortality so that he would focus his efforts in this area was so that the anomaly could be born and so that he could inhabit its body and become the most powerful force user who ever lived.

No, it doesn't. I wouldn't necessarily expect you to know, but still.



I don't even know what this means, but I assume it's you just being you again.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, it doesn't. I wouldn't necessarily expect you to know, but still.



I don't even know what this means, but I assume it's you just being you again.

"The key, he'd discovered, lay in an obscure legend obliquely referenced in the Journal of the Whills, about a hero fairly typical in most cultures-the sort of promised future savior who appears in the foundational myths of nearly every developed society. What distinguished this particular savior from his run-of-the-mill equivalents was that he, according to four of eleven possible translations, was to be "born of pure Force." After three standard years devoted specifically to exploring all possible permutations of the interpretation, Tenebrous determined that such a birth was indeed possible, at least metaphorically- "born of pure Force" could be read as indicating the creation of a living being through direct manipulation of midi-chlorian processes in an already living being.

And further, as Tenebrous discovered with rising excitement, such a being s Force potential might be limited not by its creator's own midi-chlorian count, but instead only by its creator's level of discipline and attention to detail. Indeed, his calculations indicated a range potentially far beyond his own. With proper execution, the "savior" might have a midi-chlorian count as high as fifteen thousand!

Perhaps even more.

It might be possible to create a being with the greatest Force potential ever recorded!

And-by the application of his own suitably subtle variation of the ancient Sith brute-force essence transfer-Tenebrous could ensure that his own consciousness would be present at the creation of this being, this savior, this Chosen One. And, at the moment of creation-long before the Chosen One could hope to resist- Tenebrous would seize it. Would become it.

With this single stroke, decades after his body's death, he would become the most powerful Force-user in the history of the galaxy.

It was all there in the numbers. He could not possibly fail.

Once his analysis had been parsed to its nth degree, polished into a gem perfect beyond the possibility of flaw, Tenebrous had devoted every second of every day of his life to fulfilling his plan. Nothing would be left to chance. He had exterminated his doddering Master with his customary efficiency, and had embarked immediately on a decades-spanning quest for an apprentice of his own. And not just an apprentice, but the apprentice: one possessed of a very specific combination of particular skills-primarily surrounding the direct perception and manipulation of midi-chlorian activity-but also a range of weaknesses, from short-sighted concern with personal profit to an unconquerable dread of the unknown realms beyond the walls of death.

An apprentice whose sole purpose was to create the being Tenebrous would become." - The Tenebrous Way.

Right.

Did you not read the entire thing?



Now, please stop talking in this thread. It's just making it messy.

As if this thread could get any more of a mess.

Beni, I've already bested you in the other thread. No need for a round two.

Howley shiat, this thread is out of control

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Did you not read the entire thing?

Accept we know that's not the case because Anakin was born. The difference being that Plagueis didn't create him directly under his own experimentation with midichlorian manipulation but the Force did as a reaction against what Plagueis and Sidious were doing. Tenebrous's ignorance to that fact doesn't change that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Accept we know that's not the case because Anakin was born.

Right. My point was dismissing your usage of the Tenebrous Way, which is outdated and inconsistent with the time, like you said.

Now, let's see if you can form a theory on how Anakin Skywalker was born that is consistent with the timeline....



Ah, you can't. This is inconsistent with the timeline, and never specifically stated, and thus impossible.

You've really been trying to prove me wrong here, but you've yet to land even a blow against my impeccable math.

Now please prove that the quote you're using to say that the mediation occured within the 0.0-0.5 applies anywhere outside of the source it appears in.

Yeah, you mentioned that before. I have no clue what you actually mean by the question...

I assume it's you not understanding what my math actually says, but feel free to clarify in detail so I can properly respond.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Right. My point was dismissing your usage of the Tenebrous Way, which is outdated and inconsistent with the time, like you said.

Now, let's see if you can form a theory on how Anakin Skywalker was born that is consistent with the timeline....



Ah, you can't. This is inconsistent with the timeline, and never specifically stated, and thus impossible.

You've really been trying to prove me wrong here, but you've yet to land even a blow against my impeccable math.

It doesn't matter. Don't you see that? Nobody cares if your math is right because the intent was made clear. You failed before you even began. That you can't realize this is the saddest part of the whole farce.

mmm

Ant is stomping atm.

Uh, it seems that a lot of people care. A lot of people have already accepted the facts.

And while you don't believe me, it's still evident that you care. Everyone seems to care.

The issue is that those who care and still deny my math has yet to prove that my math is wrong.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, it seems that a lot of people care. A lot of people have already accepted the facts.

And while you don't believe me, it's still evident that you care. Everyone seems to care.

The issue is that those who care and still deny my math has yet to prove that my math is wrong.

No Ant. Alot of people haven't. A lot of people will use this argument to support their agendas like you. But they won't believe it for a second. I don't even think you believe it.

I care because I take offense as a Star Wars fan of your blatant twisting of information in support of your bias.

I'm honestly curious on who you think actually cares about the math over the intent.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b1/89/23/b189239228dadd0d0f44541df864a79b.jpg

You seem really upset. It's pretty amusing, although rather disturbing.

You should go relax for a little bit. You're not thinking straight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni, I've already bested you in the other thread. No need for a round two. You mean the thread were you ran away from Swords? Was a g'dun. Yeah.

Can help but notice you've been avoiding ILS in this thread as well. mmm

I am Ant. I really am. If you were just some troll or someone like AP I could accept it, have a chuckle and move on. But since I actually like you it makes it a lot harder to shrug off your scummy actions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean the thread were you ran away from Swords? Was a g'dun. Yeah.

Can help but notice you've been avoiding ILS in this thread as well. mmm
I responded to ILS:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How?

There's absolutely no evidence that Darth Plagueis had anything to do with the creation of the Chosen One.

To assume such is complete and utter speculation.

And don't think I'm not going to respond to your blasphemy concerning Revan either, ILS.

I'll start my post concerning Revan now, but the Plagueis aspect of it has been debunked.

Using logic and math in star wars is beyond retarded tbh

Edit: Syn. What you said on Skype that time seem to be true lol. We should divine the future more often

IIRC it was never said that Plagueis and Sidious outright created Anakin, it was inferred by Plagueis that the Force struck back... So he was created due to their meddling but as a counterbalance to that not as a result of it.

Let's ignore the fact that the Chosen One's ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy was the destruction of Palpatine. Nope, no reason to think Palpatine played a role at all. The Banite Sith tried to create the Chosen One, tried to unbalance the Force (and succeeded), and then the Chosen One happens to show up as the Force is unbalanced by the Banite Sith with the purpose of restoring the balance, and apparently this is just a massive coincidence.

Absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I never contended with the notion Palpatine is responsible for Skywalker's creation.

There's even a chance that he is the sole reason for Skywalker's creation.

Plagueis, on the other hand, can't claim even a 1/100th of the conception.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin Skywalker was born in 41.9 BBY.

Assuming 3:4:14 ArS is 32.0 BBY, then Anakin Skywalker is 9 years, 10 months, and 24 days old of The Phantom Menace.

Note that the above isn't critical to this discussion, but it's worth noting.

The Yinchorri Uprising took place in 33.0 BBY.

In the Darth Plagueis novel, it states that the duo's meditation took place 8 years prior to the event.

Thus, the meditation occurred roughly around 41 BBY.

Even if we assume the mental war took place the earliest it possibly could (i.e. a day short of 42 BBY), the math doesn't add up.

After all, Anakin Skywalker would have been *conceived* well into 42 BBY (likely around 42.7 BBY).

Also, if we make note of the ArS timeline established above, then Anakin Skywalker would have been conceived a full year before it happened.

Thus, we have Anakin Skywalker being conceived numerous months after the latest possible time the meditation could have occurred.

In other words, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's war never gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Something else did.

Let's list all the assumptions that Ant makes here:

1. That immaculate conception by the Force takes nine months. It could have been a week for all we know. After all, the Force circumvented a ludicrous number of other biological barriers in Anakin's conception.

2. That the Force can't create preemptive countermeasures, even though a huge part of its modus operanti is giving people premonitions and precognition. Heck, the whole Chosen One prophecy was done several thousand years in advance.

3. That it's just a massive coincidence that -

a) The Banite sith tried to conceive the Chosen One
b) Sidious and Plagueis unbalance the Force (this has to be true, given that they and other Force users sense it happening just as they finish their meditation, or else you posit an implausible coincidence)
c) The Chosen One, whose entire purpose is to restore balance to the Force, right around when two Sith unbalance it.
d) The balance of the Force just happens to be restored, and thus the Chosen One's mission fulfilled, on the death of the last of the duo (Sidious).

4. That the novel should be considered infallible with respect to how many years before the Yinchorri Uprising they meditate, but not with respect to Sidious and Plagueis's deductions about Anakin's creation (and apparently they never bothered to check dates or something).

Now Ant's response to this has been to demand proof that the Force conceived Anakin quickly, and presumably to demand proof that the Force did it preemptively. But this misses the point. The more rigorous approach is to consider which model is more plausible, or rather, which makes the less absurd assumptions -

Ant's model: That it's all one massive coincidence that the Chosen One is conceived to restore balance to the Force right around when Plagueis and Sidious seemingly unbalance it, and that Anakin fulfills his mission right when Sidious dies.

Our model: That the Force conceived Anakin either quickly or preemptively, or there was just a dating error.

It's less incredulous that the same god-like energy field that could conceive a being of Anakin's power could also accelerate the pregnancy process, than it is for the whole thing to be one red herring because of like seven incredibly absurd coincidences.

Plagueis and Sidious simply were far more cosmologically powerful than Valkorion, or any Sith/non-mortis users of the dark side before them. Accept it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I never contended with the notion Palpatine is responsible for Skywalker's creation.

There's even a chance that he is the sole reason for Skywalker's creation.

Plagueis, on the other hand, can't claim even a 1/100th of the conception.

Um, Sidious was weaker than Plagueis when Anakin was conceived. Unless if you think the Force was acting preemptively, in which case your whole point becomes irrelevant.

Actually, that's not a necessary speculation for my math to hold true.

Under the basis that the event happened after 41.5 BBY, the conception could have lasted a second.



Absolutely not something I dispute. If you read my above post in the other thread, it's factoring that in completely.



The year is confirmed by numerous individuals. And yes, I am speculating they can tell time, but dismissing the notion they know the will of the Force.

Luke Skywalker, likewise, has the same feelings.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um, Sidious was weaker than Plagueis when Anakin was conceived. Unless if you think the Force was acting preemptively, in which case your whole point becomes irrelevant.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635850&pagenumber=17#post16001832

GG.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635850&pagenumber=17#post16001832

GG.

Plagueis and Sidious seemed to think otherwise. Even Palpatine, in his narcissism, attributed the creation to their joint efforts, and not his own badassery.

The results of their meditation was heavily emphasized to be a pivotal shift - and while it's possible that they were just on drugs and delusional about it, it seems highly unlikely given that, well, they aren't idiots. Nor can this explain their sudden breakthrough in midichlorian manipulation.

The other factor your theory leaves unexplained is why the Force didn't directly fight back against their shenanigans. Our explanation is that it retaliated by conceiving of the Chosen One - yours is that it just let them do it 'cause whatever.

Since your dates-arguments is kind of irrelevant as your own hypothesis also requires the Force to have acted preemptively, I think the simple option is just to defer to Sidious and Plagueis's conclusion because they were intimately familiar with the balance of the Force, how important their meditation was, etc.

So you concede it's speculation? I love it.

You also have to support the notion that the Force anticipated it ahead of time with a source, by the way.

I provided an argument factoring that in, but that doesn't mean I agree.

You don't have a source. You're just speculating.

Can I take my victory trophy now, or do you want to dispute this for a little longer?

Also, the Force didn't fight back for them because it never fought back for any of the shifts.

Instead, it used Anakin Skywalker as a way to counter all the shifts.

The only difference is, the meditation shift might have never even happened.

What are you talking about? Why do you think the ritual took months of intense meditation? The Force was fighting to resist their will, and it failed. That's why the feat is impressive in the first place; several things have imbalanced the Force to varying degrees, such as galactic-scale wars, but Sidious and Plagueis did it by themselves through sheer will. Not only that, but the shift was also unprecedentedly strong, so much so that the Jedi lost their ability to see the future, and the Sith could directly influence Midichlorians. Anakin's birth was supposed to be the Force's form of retaliation, the vehicle through which the balance could be restored.

Quote that the Force was resisting their will and failed?

And nope, since Anakin was born before it happened.

Grasping for straws again?
This is probably your most pathetic attempt so far.

Plagueis > Revan

Get over it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote that the Force was resisting their will and failed?

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.



Continuity error; the intent is clear in the text, even Pablo Hidalgo agrees.

Ant's going to say that it's only their perspective again.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

Proof that Darth Plagueis knows the will of the Force?

Luke Skywalker says he doesn't.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Continuity error; the intent is clear in the text.
Proof?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant's going to say that it's only their perspective again.

Despite it taking place from a third person pov.

Edit: Spot on Nova.

Third person limited that effectively works as Plagueis' voice.

It's not third personal omniscient.

Guys, the Force obviously wanted Plagueis and Sidious to be able to abuse it, and shred the laws of nature. It just birthed Anakin because... reasons.

Ant's becoming like Revan now. He thinks he's doing good for everyone by vanquishing the evil of Plagueis wank, but he doesn't realize the abomination that he's become.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant's becoming like Revan now. He thinks he's doing good for everyone by vanquishing the evil of Plagueis wank, but he doesn't realize the abomination that he's become.

https://youtu.be/6LrxFsr-CAc?t=75

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Guys, the Force obviously wanted Plagueis and Sidious to be able to abuse it, and shred the laws of nature. It just birthed Anakin because... reasons.
There is a difference between wanting something and not doing anything to retaliate.

If we assume the Force retaliated to the meditation, we would have to assume it predicted the future.

If so, then it could have retaliated to the countless other greater disturbances, like the rise of the Galactic Empire.

So, your position is baseless.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There is a difference between wanting something and not doing anything to retaliate.

What exactly is that distinction, when the person in question is a nigh-omnisicient, nigh-omnipotent energy field? Also, if the Force didn't offer any resistance, then why would it have taken Palpatine and Plagueis months of intense meditation to assert their will over it's? Your argument frankly rates a zero on the common sense meter; you're trying to shove a square peg into a circular keyhole to further a failing agenda.

The distinction is the fact the Force didn't provide any resistance to any disturbance ever recorded.

It took them that long to ultimately spread their power across the galaxy.

Don't forget that Ant questions whether Plagueis or Sidious caused an imbalance in the first place, since the only mention of it is from Sidious and Plagueis' perspective, apparently.

50% chance it never happened.

Don't you realize how foolish you sound Ant?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The distinction is the fact the Force didn't provide any resistance to any disturbance ever recorded.

Ah, that's where you were going with that. The thing is, though, the situations are completely different. We've seen time and again that the currents of the Force shift naturally with the state of the galaxy, just like they do on a planetary and even personal level. In contrast, Palpatine and Plagueis' ritual was a defiance of nature that forcibly warped the Force in their favor; that's why it retaliated.

Like Luceno(?) said, Midichlorian Manipulation is not a show of power. It's not because the Sith became more powerful that they gained the ability to freely manipulate midichlorians when they couldn't before; it's because the Force had been undermined, and could no longer resist the attempts directly. That's why Anakin Skywalker was necessary--Palpatine's and Plagueis' imbalancing of the Force is on a completely different scale and of a completely different nature than natural imbalances.

All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The Force never retaliated against Darth Tenebrous' master's actions, bar the +1 to the Chosen One creation fund.

And frankly, Darth Tenebrous' master's actions were almost indisputably more dangerous than Palpatine and Plagueis' meditation.

And that's not what Luceno said. He said that it was Plagueis' unwavering determination that unlocked the gateway, not that the Force was weakened.

Also, you're forgetting the fact the meditation took place after Anakin's birth anyway.

No, that's not a continuity error. You'd have to prove that with a quote.

Horrible comparison, Ant. The fact that the Jedi could feel the dark side for the first time didn't necessitate the Force to create a Chosen One, lol. The Force wasn't even particularly imbalanced there. Certainly not on the same scale as Plagueis/Sidious' effect.

No, because the dark side had been growing in strength and sowing chaos and destruction for a thousand years.

Darth Tenebrous' master's actions revealed a thousand years of dark side influence and corruption.

And it only happened by literally ripping into the fabric of the Force itself.

The former being far more insane than spreading influence about the Force without resistance.

Opening a small rend in the Force's fabric that enabled the Jedi to feel the dark side isn't the same as forcibly imbalancing the Force itself.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And frankly, Darth Tenebrous' master's actions were almost indisputably more dangerous than Palpatine and Plagueis' meditation.

Guess not.



Are you playing dumb? Plagues' unwavering determination/strength of will is what cowed the Force, i.e "the gateway" that had locked him out previously.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Opening a small rend in the Force's fabric that enabled the Jedi to feel the dark side isn't the same as forcibly imbalancing the Force itself.

Ripping open the fabric of the Force, in which the thousand years of dark side influence would be revealed, isn't forcibly imbalancing the Force, yeah.

The former is far more impressive.

Ant's calling out Tenebrous' master's actions as superior to Plagueis' on no evidential basis at all. Your case relies on a number of unproven assumptions which you use confident wording to create the illusion of substantiation for, but in reality, they're not substantiated at all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Guess not.

Are you playing dumb? Plagues' unwavering determination is what cowed the Force, i.e "the gateway" that had locked him out previously.



That's speculating then. I don't care for that.

Again, it happened after Anakin was born.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant's calling out Tenebrous' master's actions as superior to Plagueis' on no evidential basis at all. Your case relies on a number of unproven assumptions which you use confident wording to create the illusion of substantiation for, but in reality, they're not substantiated at all.
Irony at its finest.

My case requires no assumptions.

The math states that Anakin was born prior to the meditation.

Anything else being said is speculation on your part.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ripping open the fabric of the Force, in which the thousand years of dark side influence would be revealed, isn't forcibly imbalancing the Force, yeah.

The former is far more impressive.

What would be revealed is irrelevant. That's an entirely separate setup. The rend is basically a window into all of the other things being done by the Sith.

Forcibly imbalancing the Force itself is far beyond merely creating a window into other imbalances and manipulations of the Force.

Exhibit A is opening a window into a dark, stormy world. Exhibit B is actually creating the storm. They don't compare, lol.

No, it's not far beyond. Ripping a hole in the Force is more impressive than shifting it, lmfao.

That being said, that's not relevant to my point anyway.

You can label it speculation if you like, but it's more in line with basic human reasoning skills. GL told us that Sidious was the source of the imbalance in the Force, and that the prophecy of the Chosen One was all about Anakin killing him as the means of restoring balance. To claim that Anakin's birth and Sidious' domination of the Force are unrelated is absolutely laughable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Irony at its finest.

My case requires no assumptions.

The math states that Anakin was born prior to the meditation.

Anything else being said is speculation on your part.

Your case is assumptions.

I'm talking about your comparisons between Plagueis/Sidious' machinations and those of Tenebrous' master, among others.

The Force isn't bound by time, lol. It only needs to spawn something that'll destroy the Sith, and the only reason it cares enough to do that is because the Sith are beginning to bend the Force to their will.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, it's not far beyond. Ripping a hole in the Force is more impressive than shifting it, lmfao.

That being said, that's not relevant to my point anyway.

Yes, because opening a window into a stormy landscape is far more impressive than causing the storm itself.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You can label it speculation if you like, but it's more in line with basic human reasoning skills. GL told us that Sidious was the source of the imbalance in the Force, and that the prophecy of the Chosen One was all about Anakin killing him as the means of restoring balance. To claim that Anakin's birth and Sidious' domination of the Force are unrelated is absolutely laughable.
It's clear you have no clue what I'm arguing then.

I never stated Palpatine had no influence over Anakin Skywalker's creation.

I stated Darth Plagueis had no quantifiable influence over Anakin Skywalker's creation.

Fun fact: Palpatine = / = Plagueis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Force isn't bound by time, lol. It only needs to spawn something that'll destroy the Sith, and the only reason it cares enough to do that is because the Sith are beginning to bend the Force to their will.



That moment you realize when even the Jedi knew that Anakin would be born thousands of years before it happened.



Fun fact: You might be insane.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your case is assumptions.

I'm talking about your comparisons between Plagueis/Sidious' machinations and those of Tenebrous' master, among others.

The Force isn't bound by time, lol. It only needs to spawn something that'll destroy the Sith, and the only reason it cares enough to do that is because the Sith are beginning to bend the Force to their will.
What part of my case is assumptions?

The date of the meditation is fact.

The date of Anakin's birth is fact.

The meditation taking place after the birth is fact.

It's that simple.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Fun fact: You might be insane.
Lmfao, fixed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What part of my case is assumptions?

The date of the meditation is fact.

The date of Anakin's birth is fact.

The meditation taking place after the birth is fact.

It's that simple.

And the fact that the Force is bound by time and has to wait for Palpatine/Plagueis to keep up before creating Anakin is an assumption and contradicted by other sources (the Mortis arc, the entire nature of the Prophecy of the Chosen One, etc.)

Originally posted by NewGuy01


That moment you realize when even the Jedi knew that Anakin would be born thousands of years before it happened.


Not to mention that the Son was able to show Anakin direct visions of the future. If the Son, a personification of one half of the Force, was able to "break the laws of time", in the Father's words, then what prohibits the Force itself from doing so?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And the fact that the Force is bound by time and has to wait for Palpatine/Plagueis to keep up before creating Anakin is an assumption and contradicted by other sources (the Mortis arc, the entire nature of the Prophecy of the Chosen One, etc.)



That's not an assumption I'm making.

You're the one making the assumption that the Force knew about the event before it happened, and then acted to it.

I'm merely stating the above is speculation, and thus we don't know the cause of Anakin Skywalker's birth.

I've supplied theories and speculation on why, but don't mistake that with the core facts of my case, which you're doing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

The date of Anakin's birth is fact.

Not... really, though. Looking through the thread now, and the source you linked even says it's an approximation.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not... really, though. Looking through the thread now, and the source you linked even says it's an approximation.

That's already been addressed.

The approximation has to do with the fact it's only one decimal point.

That being said, another source lists Anakin's birth as 7:4 BrS.

Thus, we have both the year and month of his birth.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


That's not an assumption I'm making.

You're the one making the assumption that the Force knew about the event before it happened, and then acted to it.

I'm merely stating the above is speculation, and thus we don't know the cause of Anakin Skywalker's birth.

I've supplied theories and speculation on why, but don't mistake that with the core facts of my case.

The Force knows the future, lol.

That's why it showed Revan the vision of Meetra coming to rescue him. That's why it showed Scourge the vision of the HoT defeating the Emperor. That's why it showed Traya the visions of everything she tells you about at the end of KotOR II. That's why Pong Krell foresees the destruction of the Jedi Order. That's why Sidious foresees almost everything. That's how Plagueis was able to foresee the rise of Darth Vader. That's why the Son could show Anakin visions of the events in RotS.

These things are all perpetuated by the Force, and yet you think the Force itself can't supersede the laws of time? Your argument relies on the assumption that the Force has to wait up for Palpatine and Plagueis to do something before it can "catch up" to them. And simply put, not only is that assumption completely unsupported, but outright contradicted by all of the examples I gave you.

Suggesting that the Force doesn't know about the future, doesn't know about events before they happen, etc, is downright ludicrous.

Pong Krell seeing the end of the Jedi Order but not Yoda, still makes me want to vomit.

@Nova: Holy shit, are you brain dead?

I said your assumption was that the Force specifically produced Anakin as a response to that event ahead of time.

That is an indisputable speculation.

My argument doesn't remotely demand the Force not knowing the future in any way, shape, or form.

Acknowledge this instead of saying the same thing over and over again like a mindless droid.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Thus, we have both the year and month of his birth.

Then, has it been addressed that although the Force only yielded roughly eight years before sometime during 33 BBY, that Palpatine and Plagueis only succeeded after several months of exercising their will over the Force? That would have been an opportune time for the Force to retaliate without having to "predict the future" (even though it had already been foreseen by Jedi millennia before the event) as well.

That's been factored. As per the BrS dating, Anakin Skywalker would have been born 42.58 BBY. Assuming the meditation went on a day short of a year (the maximum it could have occurred), it's still after the BrS dating.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Nova: Holy shit, are you brain dead?

I said your assumption was that the Force specifically produced Anakin as a response to that event ahead of time.

That is an indisputable speculation.

My argument doesn't remotely demand the Force not knowing the future in any way, shape, or form.

Acknowledge this instead of saying the same thing over and over again like a mindless droid.

That's because you're relying on the facts being handed out to you like Halloween treats and not actually trying to think for yourself. And at the very least, my points naturally debunk your claim that it's an impossibility for Palpatine/Plagueis to have caused the conception of Anakin Skywalker. Even in your brain-damaged state, you have to admit that it's now at least a possibility for Palpatine/Plagueis to have caused the conception of Anakin, as opposed to the "impossibility" that you claimed it was earlier.

By the way, NewGuy's right. The meditation might've culminated in 41BBY, but if it took months, it may well have been initiated earlier and before Anakin's birth.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's because you're relying on the facts being handed out to you like Halloween treats and not actually trying to think for yourself. And at the very least, my points naturally debunk your claim that it's an impossibility for Palpatine/Plagueis to have caused the conception of Anakin Skywalker.
Your claims are based on speculation.

Ultimately, I don't care if there is a chance Palpatine/Plagueis could have caused it.

All I care is that since it's not proven, it can't be used in debates.

And that being said, given how limited your speculation is, it's virtually impossible, yeah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So you concede it's speculation? I love it.


Both sides are speculating, the difference is that our speculation isn't as implausible, fits the conclusions of the most qualified experts (.i.e. Sidious and Plagueis), and, if we can be real for a moment, is obviously what was intended by Luceno.



That applies to your idea too. Heck, it applies to the whole concept of a prophecy...

So, essentially, Sidious and Plagueis actively try to unbalance the Force, and feel like they've accomplished an unprecedented milestone. You think that they did something but it was marginal and they were just being delusional. Funny; were they delusional when they noticed that they were able to manipulate midichlorians to an extent never before witnessed in history? And it just happens to be that a Forceful being conceived by midichlorians arises...while they meddle with midichlorians. mmm

As Neph said, rock solid. And so the temples of Hego and Sheev further crumble.

Ant's forgetting that the Prophecy of Anakin's life and existence was conceived millennia before his birth. If the Force can't anticipate it ahead of time, then I guess the Prophecy was just made-up as a Jedi bed-time story that coincidentally proved true thousands of years into the future.

@The Ellimist:

Which part of the following is speculation:

- The date of Anakin Skywalker's birth

- The date of the meditation

- The fact one took place before the other.

Anything beyond that is speculation.

Note that anything beyond that is where your case rests.

The problem with Ant's "you can't prove it hurr hurr" tactic is that he thinks the burden is on us to establish a near 100% certainty that Plagueis and Sidious created Anakin, when in reality it just has to be the most likely theory, which it is. There are too many things that happen to fall into place. EDIT: posted before Ant's recent reply

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant's forgetting that the Prophecy of Anakin's life and existence was conceived millennia before his birth. If the Force can't anticipate it ahead of time, then I guess the Prophecy was just made-up as a Jedi bed-time story that coincidentally proved true thousands of years into the future.


That has nothing to do with this.

The Force could have birthed Anakin to a thousand different reasons from around 45 BBY to 4 ABY.

It's speculation to choose which. I don't care to know, since it's not relevant to debate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The problem with Ant's "you can't prove it hurr hurr" tactic is that he thinks the burden is on us to establish a near 100% certainty that Plagueis and Sidious created Anakin, when in reality it just has to be the most likely theory, which it is. There are too many things that happen to fall into place. EDIT: posted before Ant's recent reply
No, it has to be proven, given the event literally happened after Anakin's birth.

Thus, it's anything but likely. Your claim is so insane it has to be proven.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's been factored. As per the BrS dating, Anakin Skywalker would have been born 42.58 BBY.

You mean conceived? Sure, let's go with that.



Well, let's see. So the balance was shifted roughly 8 years before roughly 33 BBY. Which means it could have been 8 years and 4 months before 33 BBY, or 33.2 BBY, or whatever; the point is that both are approximations. Then you have the timeframe for the meditation having been "many months", a third approximation to throw in the mix.

If you assume the highest reasonable values for all three approximations, the first rituals could have feasibly been before Anakin's birth. If you assume the lowest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift would be well after Anakin's birth. Either way, the blatantly obvious intention was that they coincided, and Luceno probably wasn't looking at the decimals from obscure sources when he wrote Darth Plagueis; what are you trying to accomplish by denying the obvious?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


That has nothing to do with this.

The Force could have birthed Anakin to a thousand different reasons from around 45 BBY to 4 ABY.

It's speculation to choose which. I don't care to know, since it's not relevant to debate.

It has everything to do with this. It makes your point about Anakin being born later than the meditation absolutely irrelevant. The Force isn't bound by the laws of time, as we've proven repeatedly. You're just incoherently screaming "but Anakin was born after!" time and time again like a flat-earther whose shower went cold.

So what if he was born afterwards? We know the Force knows events ahead of time.

You also failed to respond to the point about how the fact that the meditation took months means that it could've began before Anakin's conception.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You mean conceived? Sure, let's go with that.



Well, let's see. So the balance was shifted roughly 8 years before roughly 33 BBY. Which means it could have been 8 years and 4 months before 33 BBY, or 33.2 BBY, or whatever; the point is that both are approximations. Then you have the timeframe for the meditation having been "many months", a third approximation to throw in the mix.

If you assume the highest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift could have feasibly been before Anakin's birth. If you assume the lowest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift would be well after Anakin's birth. Either way, the blatantly obvious intention was that they coincided, and Luceno wasn't looking at the decimals when he wrote Darth Plagueis; what are you trying to accomplish by denying the obvious?
No, born. There's an inconsistency with the dates. Since you wanted to dismiss the first one, we have this one.

The balance had to have been shifted at any time prior to 41.5 BBY.

Thus, assuming it took a full year (the max), 42.58 > prior to 41.5 BBY.