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There is a new interview with Nick Gillard in which he explains the forms of lightsaber combat. It seems he's mixing forms and levels quite a bit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

Mace is an 8 bordering on 9?

Fisto a 7? Interesting.

Yeah this doesn't really make any sense, I'm assuming he's talking about their skill level rather than lightsaber form?

That's obviously what he's talking about. Appreciate the Anakin>Mace confirmation.

Amazing.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace is an 8 bordering on 9?.

Probably 8 normally, and 9 in RotS vs Palpatine.

Something I found interesting is how 7 is generally regarded as the peak of lightsaber combat minus "enlightened" characters.

It really stresses these main characters truly are outliers in the Star Wars continuity with their blade-work capabilities.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace is an 8 bordering on 9?

Fisto a 7? Interesting. Don't see why not.

It's just an opinion. Who cares ?

Annie > Mace.

Still, though, it's his opinion over most anything else so... yeah.

Originally posted by MythLord
Annie > Mace.

Still, though, it's his opinion over most anything else so... yeah.
After his opinion Mace and Dooku are in the same tier

The fact that he confirms that there's an enormous difference between levels and compares it to the Richter scale (where each magnitude is 30 times greater than the last) gives a scope of how good Anakin/Palpatine/Yoda are, yeah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Appreciate the Anakin>Mace confirmation.


Well Anakin using the dark side > standard Mace to be precise.

Also I appreciate the Kenobi > Fisto confirmation, and Yoda > Mace (reconfirmation).



Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It really stresses these main characters truly are outliers in the Star Wars continuity with their blade-work capabilities.


Yep including Maul and Kenobi.

For those searching he starts talking about the levels at 15:06

^ DD9's link goes straight there.

Originally posted by MythLord


Still, though, it's his opinion over most anything else so... yeah.


It's more than his opinion. It's the levels he set to choreograph the movie fights.

An opinion would be when someone like Freddie Prince Junior says he thinks Ahsoka would win against Maul or Kenobi in a fight.

The opinion worshipping here is so hilarious. Think for yourselves you lemmings.

I agree Gillard isn't the main rule and his word is law and stuff but he was still responsible for helping to create lightsaber styles and levels as we know them today.

I am not saying his opinion is shit but it isn't a fact either.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I agree Gillard isn't the main rule and his word is law and stuff but he was still responsible for helping to create lightsaber styles and levels as we know them today.



Yeah plus he didn't just decide himself how good the characters are in Lightsaber fights. He was implementing what Lucas wanted.

Anakin is superior to Maul. Accept Quan.

Originally posted by playa1258
Anakin is superior to Maul. Accept Quan.



Yep and Yoda is superior to Mace even in Pure Sabers.


He owes these boards countless apologies now.

Yeah Anakin's superior to 99,9999% of the Star Wars universe.

Nick Gillard's official rankings:

9:
- Yoda
- Palpatine
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ dark side)
- Mace Windu (w/ dark side)

8:
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ light side)
- Mace Windu (w/ light side)
- Dooku
- Obi-Wan Kenobi
- Darth Maul

7:
- Kit Fisto
- Saesee Tinn
- Agen Kolar

Are these in the right order of superiority?

Anakin is Tier 8?
Now I can understand Kolar and co. being Tier 7, and not Low 8's.
Man, I should really watch the interview...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nick Gillard's official rankings:

9:
- Yoda
- Palpatine
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ dark side)
- Mace Windu (w/ dark side)

8:
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ light side)
- Mace Windu (w/ light side)
- Dooku
- Obi-Wan Kenobi
- Darth Maul

7:
- Kit Fisto
- Saesee Tinn
- Agen Kolar

Hmm... makes sense, I suppose.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Anakin is Tier 8?
Now I can understand Kolar and co. being Tier 7, and not Low 8's.
Man, I should really watch the interview...

He said Anakin with the Dark Side is a 9 so I guess Ant interpretes that he's normally a 8 when not using the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Anakin is Tier 8?
Now I can understand Kolar and co. being Tier 7, and not Low 8's.
Man, I should really watch the interview...
Anakin is 8 during the early stages of the Dooku fight.

He turns to a 9 at the end when he wins, and is a 9 vs Kenobi.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
He said Anakin with the Dark Side is a 9 so I guess Ant interpretes that he's normally a 8 when not using the Dark Side.
I believe he states LS Anakin is an 8 in a DVD interview.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nick Gillard's official rankings:

9:
- Yoda
- Palpatine
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ dark side)
- Mace Windu (w/ dark side)

8:
- Anakin Skywalker (w/ light side)
- Mace Windu (w/ light side)
- Dooku
- Obi-Wan Kenobi
- Darth Maul

7:
- Kit Fisto
- Saesee Tinn
- Agen Kolar Pretty solid

BTW, to see how Anakin vs Windu would go, watch the ROTSVG fight.

That was supervised and written by Gillard too.

However, that Windu might very well be in his 8 version, not 9.

You take that fight as a fact or more an indication how it could've happened?

Every fight has changing circumstances, so obviously it's not *fact*, but it's indication of who would have won given the context.

In fairness, Mace had just fought Palpatine before that. But whatever impact you think that'll have on his stamina is up to you.

Ant's rankings seem correct. Although Gillard would seem to suggest that Palpatine > Yoda in sabers.

Wouldn't put Maul behind Kenobi but hey that's me

TCW Obi-Wan is held to be equal to Maul. Most people assume that by RotS, he had improved, which puts him above TCW Maul.

It's worth noting that Gillard says an entire level's difference is enormous, and he defines it as the gap between TPM and RotS Obi-Wan in another interview.

Two levels' difference seems to be enough to near-blitz your opponents.

Originally posted by SunRazer
TCW Obi-Wan is held to be equal to Maul. Most people assume that by RotS, he had improved, which puts him above TCW Maul.

Has Obi-Wan improved? Anyways Maul at least has improved to going toward Siege of Mandalore and possibly more looking at his potential and superior raw power. So even if TCW Maul is an equal to TCW Obi-Wan, which I disagree with but that's a fight for another day, Maul's at least going to be equal to prime Kenobi and possibly superior to.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Has Obi-Wan improved? Anyways Maul at least has improved to going toward Siege of Mandalore and possibly more looking at his potential and superior raw power. So even if TCW Maul is an equal to TCW Obi-Wan, which I disagree with but that's a fight for another day, Maul's at least going to be equal to prime Kenobi and possibly superior to.

By all logical accounts, he would've improved. He seems to have improved more in the three years of the Clone Wars than in the ten years between TPM and AotC.

If you do want some evidence, Obi-Wan's massive improved performance between S6 TCW and the RotS fight against Dooku does suggest quite a growth in skill, yes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
By all logical accounts, he would've improved. He seems to have improved more in the three years of the Clone Wars than in the ten years between TPM and AotC.

If you do want some evidence, Obi-Wan's massive improved performance between S6 TCW and the RotS fight against Dooku does suggest quite a growth in skill, yes.

Don't get me wrong, I agree he improved but I was just suprised by the lack of actual conclusive evidence on that part.

Massive improvement? I even find the duo's performance in S6 better then in RotS, they had Dooku backing down and breathing heavily while Obi-Wan was still unharmed and Anakin wasn't tapping into the Dark Side. Then again Maul would still grow at least equally fast and probably faster looking at his potential, raw power, ...

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Don't get me wrong, I agree he improved but I was just suprised by the lack of actual conclusive evidence on that part.

Massive improvement? I even find the duo's performance in S6 better then in RotS, they had Dooku backing down and breathing heavily while Obi-Wan was still unharmed and Anakin wasn't tapping into the Dark Side. Then again Maul would still grow at least equally fast and probably faster looking at his potential, raw power, ...

There's a lot of things that have a surprising lack conclusive evidence. You have to make your own judgment. I haven't researched Obi-Wan in-depth for a while - such a quote may well exist but without my knowledge or recollection.

Anyways, the S6 performance isn't better at all. Obi-Wan couldn't get close to Dooku without being hit or thrown around. Anakin was being constantly forced back, etc.

Dooku wasn't breathing heavily anywhere. There's even a part in the S6 fight where Dooku surrenders no ground at all against Obi-Wan and Anakin's collective assault, whereas in RotS, their combined assault always forces him back.

SOD Maul should be a match for ROTS Kenobi even in Sabers.

Obi-Wan disarmed and floored a Windu-tier opponent, as a padawan. haermm

^ Is that like the 2nd time you wrote that in the space of a few minutes?

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's a lot of things that have a surprising lack conclusive evidence. You have to make your own judgment. I haven't researched Obi-Wan in-depth for a while - such a quote may well exist but without my knowledge or recollection.

Anyways, the S6 performance isn't better at all. Obi-Wan couldn't get close to Dooku without being hit or thrown around. Anakin was being constantly forced back, etc.

Dooku wasn't breathing heavily anywhere. There's even a part in the S6 fight where Dooku surrenders no ground at all against Obi-Wan and Anakin's collective assault, whereas in RotS, their combined assault always forces him back.

Indeed.

Yes he was, just before the Pykes came into the picture you saw breathing heavily (or close to it). In season 6 Dooku was forced back since the very beginning of the fight and only held his ground when Obi-Wan was balancing on the edge, after that he was again driven back almost immediately. In the end Obi-Wan was still very much conscious in Season 6 after a longer fight alongside an inferior Anakin compared to his performance in RotS.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
SOD Maul should be a match for ROTS Kenobi even in Sabers.

That that's even a question to be honest, Kenobi is probably the only character that can get dominated through the Force half a dozen times and run away from Maul while still people support his superiority.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
That that's even a question to be honest, Kenobi is probably the only character that can get dominated through the Force half a dozen times and run away from Maul while still people support his superiority.



I'd give Maul the definite superiority in TK, but I can see why the idea of Maul ragdolling Kenobi whenever he likes is in dispute tbh.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Indeed.

Yes he was, just before the Pykes came into the picture you saw breathing heavily (or close to it). In season 6 Dooku was forced back since the very beginning of the fight and only held his ground when Obi-Wan was balancing on the edge, after that he was again driven back almost immediately. In the end Obi-Wan was still very much conscious in Season 6 after a longer fight alongside an inferior Anakin compared to his performance in RotS.

I never saw that as breathing heavily. It looks more like recognition that Obi-Wan nearly got his foot.

The part I'm referring to is the part before Dooku kicks Obi-Wan onto the ledge. The three of them fight for a good while without Dooku surrendering any ground. Before that, Dooku was retreating on his own, even when the Jedi weren't attacking him. In RotS, it was always the Jedi actually driving him back - he never retreated of his own accord.

Obi-Wan was only rendered unconscious by Dooku's TK in RotS, which he never brought to bear against him in S6. Invalid comparison.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I never saw that as breathing heavily. It looks more like recognition that Obi-Wan nearly got his foot.

The part I'm referring to is the part before Dooku kicks Obi-Wan onto the ledge. The three of them fight for a good while without Dooku surrendering any ground. Before that, Dooku was retreating on his own, even when the Jedi weren't attacking him. In RotS, it was always the Jedi actually driving him back - he never retreated of his own accord.

Obi-Wan was only rendered unconscious by Dooku's TK in RotS, which he never brought to bear against him in S6. Invalid comparison.

Hmm could also be true I guess.

The duo is attacking Dooku one by one at that point while in RotS they are actually combining their attacks from the moment the fight begins so it's quite logical that Dooku can hold out in S6 but is immediately driven back in RotS. You clearly see how Dooku is retreating the moment Anakin and Obi-Wan 'combine' their attacks in the last part of the S6 fight.

Exactly, you don't know how Obi-Wan would've fared against Dooku had he used his TK in S6 so you can't compare both fights accurately since the circumstances are different.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'd give Maul the definite superiority in TK, but I can see why the idea of Maul ragdolling Kenobi whenever he likes is in dispute tbh.

Maul's obviously first going to use his lightsaber since he's primarly a warrior but if he has to he definitely can do that, why not? We've seen it in the comic (forgot the name) and we've seen it on Florrum.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul's obviously first going to use his lightsaber since he's primarly a warrior but if he has to he definitely can do that, why not? We've seen it in the comic (forgot the name) and we've seen it on Florrum.



It was Sith Hunters.

Problem with using Florrum is that it was mostly a 2 on 1 against Kenobi. You have to give Kenobi some leeway for tiring there.

So Sith Hunters is the only legitimate showing and that's only in Legends now I believe.

But Maul's got better TK showings regardless.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It was Sith Hunters.

Problem with using Florrum is that it was mostly a 2 on 1 against Kenobi. You have to give Kenobi some leeway for tiring there.

So Sith Hunters is the only legitimate showing and that's only in Legends now I believe.

But Maul's got better TK showings regardless.

Yes there is Florrum where Maul dominated him twice, notable is that kenobi was in a better state than usual (confirmed by Filoni) and there was no indication he was tiring at all.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
and there was no indication he was tiring at all.


It's a reasonable assumption thought that it's much harder to fight off 2 beasts than 1, and expends much more energy.

In any case, it's not like Maul actually defeated Kenobi either time he dominated him with TK on Florrum.

The only time he defeated him with TK was in Sith Hunters (and TPM if you count that).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's a reasonable assumption thought that it's much harder to fight off 2 beasts than 1, and expends much more energy.

In any case, it's not like Maul actually defeated Kenobi either time he dominated him with TK on Florrum.

The only time he defeated him with TK was in Sith Hunters (and TPM if you count that).

An assumption without conclusive evidence is hardly noticeable.

He held him in mid-air and slammed him against a wall and afterwards blasts him towards the other side of the cave, I call that pretty decisively.

Yeah, but that's rather one-shotting.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
An assumption without conclusive evidence is hardly noticeable.




Likewise I don't think it's conclusive proof of Maul being able that ragdoll Obi-Wan anytime, when there was clearly a 3rd factor there against Obi-Wan in Savage.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Likewise I don't think it's conclusive proof of Maul being able that ragdoll Obi-Wan anytime, when there was clearly a 3rd factor there against Obi-Wan in Savage.

Who was in both occassions out of the picture, especially the moment he got blasted across the cave.

So, if the difference between level 8 and 9 is the dark side, and dark side is "cheating", is Yoda the only one that reached level 9 in a fair way, and is the most stable lightsaber combatant of all?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Hmm could also be true I guess.

The duo is attacking Dooku one by one at that point while in RotS they are actually combining their attacks from the moment the fight begins so it's quite logical that Dooku can hold out in S6 but is immediately driven back in RotS. You clearly see how Dooku is retreating the moment Anakin and Obi-Wan 'combine' their attacks in the last part of the S6 fight.

Exactly, you don't know how Obi-Wan would've fared against Dooku had he used his TK in S6 so you can't compare both fights accurately since the circumstances are different.

It's true that they were attacking one at a time in S6, but if we take that deleted portion of the fight just before Dooku Pushes Obi-Wan, you see Obi-Wan attacking Dooku solo briefly, and Dooku still elects to get rid of him through the Force as opposed to throwing him around physically. So there's still the implication that Dooku couldn't easily remove him with physical strikes in RotS, as opposed to S6.

I can compare the fights accurately because I never once compared the part where Dooku used TK to begin with. I was only comparing the lightsaber dueling aspects, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Who was in both occassions out of the picture, especially the moment he got blasted across the cave.


Both times Kenobi had just finished beating on Opress when Maul ragdolled him. When he got blasted across the cave, that was only a few seconds after Obi-Wan was in an extended bladelock with both Brothers.


I agree the Maul is superior in TK. I just think judging that Maul can easily ragdoll Kenobi based on that fight alone is pretty harsh on Kenobi.

Originally posted by McP
So, if the difference between level 8 and 9 is the dark side, and dark side is "cheating", is Yoda the only one that reached level 9 in a fair way, and is the most stable lightsaber combatant of all?


Probably. Also it's probably not cheating for someone whose used the Dark Side from day 1 like Palpatine.

But yes Yoda and Palpatine seem to be the only consistent and stable Level 9 duellists.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Both times Kenobi had just finished beating on Opress when Maul ragdolled him. When he got blasted across the cave, that was only a few seconds after Obi-Wan was in an extended bladelock with both Brothers.


I agree the Maul is superior in TK. I just think judging that Maul can easily ragdoll Kenobi based on that fight alone is pretty harsh on Kenobi.

What does that matter? So beating Opress is suddenly going to lesser his Force defenses? Weird.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
What does that matter? So beating Opress is suddenly going to lesser his Force defenses? Weird.


Well possibly.. yeah.

Battling one opponent usually would leave you slightly weakened until you regain your strength.

Honestly not that weird tbh.

Gillard once said that AOTC Anakin is a level 7 fighter, but I just lose the quote -_-

Does anyone have it?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Gillard once said that AOTC Anakin is a level 7 fighter, but I just lose the quote -_-

Does anyone have it?

We have a thread for that, you know?

I wonder what Nicks opinion on Vader, Lukes, and Ben Kenobis skills are based on this scale. I would say Vader and Luke are solid 8s and Ben a 7.